Corruption, lies, manipulation and murder on a massive scale. These words describe the modern American Empire, what it has done and what it continues to do today. But has the American Empire, like many before it, extended its hubris too far and is its collapse imminent? Russia stands alone as the only major nation attempting to throw off the shackles of a unipolar world, assert its independence from the Empire and bring some balance back to our global society. Can Putin and co. succeed in bringing some long-overdue justice to an unjust world? And if not, is there still hope for some retribution from a 'higher power'?

This week on Behind the Headlines, we explored the nature and fate of the Roman Empire, and its parallels to our modern world, with historian Laura Knight-Jadczyk.

Running Time: 02:07:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript:

Joe: Hi and welcome to SOTT Talk Radio. I am Joe Quinn. With me this week my co-hosts are Niall Bradley -

Niall: Hi everyone!

Joe: Pierre Lescaudron

Pierre: Hello.

Joe: And by special request and invitation and all those things, Laura Knight-Jadczyk. The topic of our show, as you may know is - or the title of our show is Babylon, Ancient Rome and the American Empire. And that song, okay, maybe it was a bit spurious but it did mention Babylon, by the rivers of Babylon.

Laura: The only one you could find, huh?

Joe: Yeah, and the only popular one we could find. And it did mention Zion you know, so there is a tentative link there between what's going on in the world today and Babylon and Zion.

Laura: Extremely sad.

Joe: But, anyways, the point of the show is to discuss the state of the world today under the American Empire and maybe look back at previous empires, specifically the Roman Empire. And then perhaps going back further into kind of biblical times or biblical narratives with Babylon, fall of cities and predictions about cataclysms and all this kind of stuff that was tied up with, you know, kind of - in theory the idea of corruption of civilization.

Very much a biblical thing I think for most people because, as far as Ancient Rome goes, it didn't really fall in any kind of cataclysm as far as the official history is concerned.

Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. Welcome to the show, Laura!

Laura: Hi everybody. They hornswoggled me.

Joe: So, yeah, so my question here is -

Laura: I just want you to know, I didn't even know the title of the show.

Joe: Okay, Babylon, Ancient Rome and the American Empire.

Laura: All I heard was that I was going to talk about Babylon. I'm not prepared for Ancient Rome and the American Empire.

Joe: You're not? Yeah, right.

Niall: That's okay. Well, what inspired us to ask you to come on was your recent article -

Joe: Lament for Babylon on It's quite a short article but it kind of attempts to draw parallels between what's going on today and, I mean, you don't mention the Roman Empire but -

Laura: Nope.

Joe: You mention Babylon, and Babylon is essentially, it's kind of biblical history especially in terms of the destruction of Babylon, the fall of Babylon. Nobody believes it really happened. It's some kind of allegory or some biblical thing, right?

Laura: Well, no, no, no. No, the thing is Babylon did fall, of course. I mean, there's a story, there are numerous stories, about the fall of Babylon but the thing is, is that the topic of my article came from a chapter in the Book of Revelation, you know, where it talks about the great whore of Babylon, and that the fate of Babylon and this - this chapter is Chapter 18 - comes after Chapter 17 which talks about the Empire of the Beast.

The number 666 and, you know, it describes the characteristics of this Empire as it, you know, rises to power and then how it fools everybody, deceives everyone, controls everyone and then talks about this Mark of the Beast and everyone who takes the mark is doomed and those people who resist are not. They will be saved by, you know, the cavalry at the 11th hour, and then it just goes right in to talking about this Whore of Babylon.

You know, it's a little more complicated than that. I just want everybody to know that when I'm just talking off the cuff after having been told that I was going to talk about this topic, you don't expect me to cite all sources and -

Joe: No

Laura: And names and that sort of thing. I'm just going to talk in a general way about things. But that particular chapter is the one about, you know, no one buys their wares anymore, you know, the smoke of Babylon rises up like torment.

And in my book The Noah Syndrome I pretty much identify the United States or the United States and its influence - its sphere of influence, which we can say is pretty much global - is the Beast, is the empire of the Beast.

And for many years there were a lot of people - I was reading books and articles of these various people talking about 'New World Order, New World Order'. And of course, New World Order was kind of - it was a masonic thing, and then it was the UN or then it was NATO or then it was, you know, it was something out of the City of London, it was any number of things. George Soros is always named in there.

And the one thing that most of these individuals writing and talking about this New World Order thing was they didn't talk about the United States. I mean, how many times have you seen a video or read an article about endless trainloads of shackles, of body bags, of, you know, white vans full of Chinese-looking soldiers or foreign-looking soldiers that are going to be brought into the US.

Joe: Or the UN.

Laura: Yeah, or the UN.

Joe: They're coming to get us.

Laura: They're going to institute the New World Order. And basically it's something outside of the US that's going to be imposed on the US. You know, the US is somehow going to be conquered by this New World Order. And all of the good, innocent, exceptional Americans are going to be - you know, put to work as slaves or forced to take marks.

And all of this is attributed to some outside force, some outside influence. And nobody ever stops to think that maybe the US was the Beast. Maybe the US was the creator and propagator of the New World Order, and maybe it was trying to put it off on all the rest of the world.

Joe: Well, it would certainly be a very sneaky maneuver to convince the Americans to look outside their borders for the threat when it was brewing all along inside their borders.

Laura: Yeah, so it's kind of a strange thing.But, anyway, I started thinking about this. And I started thinking, well, a lot of what's happening right now is kind of shaping up to resemble in ways these ancient prophecies.

It's like, you know, certain phrases come to mind and they trigger thoughts like, 'Jeez! That's like that or that's like this,' or, you know.
So it's - so I wrote that little short article. And the thing was, was I puzzled over it for a few days because this issue of prophecy is kind of a thorny topic. Because it's - most of the prophecies of ancient writings - and, you know, most people who are into prophecy are generally people who are interested in the Bible.

And they talk about, you know, the prophecies of Jeremiah and Isiah and the various prophets in the Bible; Haggai, Malachi, Amos, Obadiah - the whole thing.

And of course, at the time that Christianity was being imposed on the West; they were taking a lot of things from this Old Testament; they were trying to tie themselves up with Judaism, because Judaism had come along and artificially made itself the oldest group of people in the world, right?

They were the - you know, from Adam to Moses, etcetera. But they were trying to tie themselves to this because somehow they bought into this scam. And they were interpreting all of these ancient prophecies to represent Judaism prophesizing the birth of the Messiah.

And then of course, when you read these ancient books, these prophets, you get the impression that they were prophesizing something that was going to happen far in the future.

But most scholars think that they were either, if there was a prophecy that was shown to be true, it was written after the fact. And, on the other hand, a lot of things were being talked about in terms of metaphors. They were talking about, you know, whores and Jerusalem was, you know, a female, Israel was a female and, of course, Yahweh - Jehovah - was a male god. And Israel went whoring after other gods and he was going to put her away and he was going to kill all her children.

All of these things are talked about in these strange metaphoric terms. So it's not so easy to really know what they were talking about to begin with, that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, did it really happen? People have assumed that it did because the only history they have to cover a certain period that may not ever have happened is the Bible, so they fall upon it as actual history when it isn't. And so we get into a big mess, you know, with that sort of thing.

So the whole thing, the issue of prophecy is a big deal among most Christian fundamentalists. And it began more or less as a kind of a Christian thing, at least as far as our current civilization is concerned. That's not to say that there weren't prophet.

More often than not in ancient times, it wasn't so much a prophet as it was a reader of the signs in the skies who saw a comet coming close and saying, "Oops, we may have a problem here." Because they had a history of having cometary impacts.

And then, that later on was misunderstood as prophecies - that you get up there and you just prophesize. Some, you know, the word of the Lord comes upon you instead of, you know, "Gee! With my eyes, I sighted a comet in the sky and based on my calculations, you know, it may just hit on us."

So, something that was really scientific got converted into something nebulous and iffy. And then, so those kind of things were happening. And so there was prophecy in ancient times, but more often than not, there were interpreters of heavenly signs. It wasn't so much prophecy as it was interpretation.

Something happened, it had to be interpreted. The big thing that they were all concerned about in Rome was interpreting anomalous phenomena and deciding, you know, which god was angry, why he was angry and what you needed to do about it to appease the god. If a hermaphrodite was born, this was, you know, considered to be an omen of an ill whim for Rome.

So they had to take in like, sacrifice a goat or something, take the goat, take all its essentials out, sew the hermaphrodite up inside the goat's belly. And put it on a ship and take it out the sea and dump it overboard. And then they had to get nine times nine maidens or three times nine maidens, three times nine young boys. They had to march around the city singing and chanting, you know, to appease the gods.

So, everything was a matter of interpretation. They had to interpret what they - you know, if a fall of rocks, if there was a lightning strike that hit the temple or if there was a calf born that had three legs or five legs or something; any kind of thing like that, a ring around the moon, a flood, a fall of hale, all the kinds of things that are really happening right now in our present day with all this climate change going on.

It was a lot of that going on in Rome. And there's a lot of records of it, of these events, and how they were interpreted. Because it was more about interpretation than it was about prophecies for these ancients.

Pierre: And can't you reconcile this notion of prophecies and observation if actually there is this human-cosmic connection we posited, and there is correlation between excess and abuse committed by empires and cosmic reactions? In this sense, what the observers observed at the Roman time, correlation between abuses and cosmic reactions, is still valid today with the Roman Empire - archetypal.

Laura: Well yeah, yes.Because the Romans went about this very, very scientifically. They kept impeccable records of everything that happened, you know - what followed after that event, what kind of appeasement they performed, you know, whether they danced naked in the moonlight, you know, stuff green peppers up their nose; any number of things like that. So, they would keep these impeccable records.

And then, when the next time one of these events happened, then they would know either what to do or they would know what followed it. Or they would try to find the reason for it.

Because, you know, if this flood occurs, it's because the consul did not, you know, make the proper sacrifice before he marched up to war. Or, you know, the general of another army asks for a peace conference and our general refused it - that was, you know, kind of like a sin, if you want to call it that. That was an error.

He should have accepted that because, you know, the gods obviously were favoring the other general and our guy refused to talk to him so, as a result of that, there was a torrential rainstorm and the entire city was flooded and hundreds of people died.

So they were scientifically keeping these records, finding reasons. But the odd thing is, when you read this sort of thing, you see their interpretations changing over the years. Because, in the beginning they would honestly try to find their real fault, you know.

'How have we angered the gods? What do we need to do to make things right in addition to marching around and singing? Where is our real flaw? What can we do?'

Pierre: That was a very important point. Because, even if the rituals were wrong, there was this strong awareness that human conduct had an influence on cosmic events.

Laura: Oh yeah! So they started being very careful, trying to find out the fault, trying to correct it - and sometimes it included, you know, all the people in the city having to conform to a certain behavior. They had to give up wearing gold jewelry or give up luxurious behaviors or give up, you know, various things. And then the people would do this, everything would kind of straighten out and then they would go along.

But over time, this interpretation began to be really corrupted. And you could notice this if you read these texts that they began to be kind of - they had like a blind spot. Everything started to be interpreted in their own favor. As though they never really did anything wrong and the other individuals and the other countries or cities or their opponents were the ones that were doing something wrong. And, you know, or even they would interpret a sign to say, "We should go out and kill these people!" You know, "We haven't killed enough!"

Joe: Well, taking it from supposed original, correct understanding that it was corruption among humans, in human society that would bring on kind of cosmic destruction or some kind of natural destruction - assuming that people had that understanding, getting to the point of marching with kids around the city or sacrificing animals is like really far away from the true understanding. I mean that's, it's pretty simple: if you have a corrupt society, if you really go down the tube in that respect, you're going to -

Laura: Well, right! Right, because initially, like I said, they started trying to really find their fault and correcting it in themselves. And then it became corrupted and it ended up being rituals, you know, marching around the city, singing; and this actually carried over into Christianity.

Joe: And I can see how it would easily or quickly be transformed into, "We have to go kill that group of people, because they're the corrupt ones."
At least that's got the direct link to the idea of corruption being to blame. And getting rid of corruption is the solution. Like, "Look at those bunch of harlots" or, you know, whatever. You know, "Near dwellers over in that other town. They are the other ones who are drinking and womanizing all night. Let's kill them!"

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: You know, that makes sense to a certain extent.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: Even though it's pointing the finger at someone else.

Laura: It's kind of sick because - yeah.

Joe: But, I mean, all the other stuff that it got so corrupted into - I mean like, essentially the idea of sacrificing animals; where does that come from? How does that ever get translated into sacrificing animals? Like, the gods like blood or something?

Laura: Well, yeah. Well, this is kind of strange because that's a 'survival' from the previous civilization that fell. You know, i.e. Babylon. And Babylon apparently got very, very corrupt and things went, you know, really bad. And then they got hostile and destroyed each other. And it was just all this fighting and infighting.

And the odd thing is, is that when you read all these records, you read all these ancient texts, you find out that during the times that all of this backbiting, backstabbing, infighting, outfighting - back and forth, "You did this!", "No, you did that!" etcetera, etcetera - that all the time that's going on, running as a slow drum beat in the background, is this continuous series of anomalous events. The weather getting bad, you know, torrential rainstorms, floods, fireballs, comets; all kinds of warnings.

It's like Mother Nature starts having these reactions to the behaviors of human beings. And it starts sending out these warnings, or these things start happening, and they just completely freaking ignore it. You know, nothing is going to interfere with their war.

Pierre: Yeah. And you can see this reversal of values, and this ignorance of strong cosmic signals, in the Judaic creed. The way in the mythicized Judaic history, the way Egypt and then Babylon fell was not due to the corruption, to the excess induced by the divine priest in those countries. But it was due to the oppressor; the Babylonians or the Egyptians.

So, you see the twist; you have a population that corrupts locally the rest of the population - a small elite corrupting the rest of the population. And post-facto, after the destruction, cosmic destruction; the elite blames the victims, the ones that they were oppressing. And, because of this oppression you have this cosmic reaction. So, there's a total reversal of values and of the interpretation of the real story, what's really happening on a cosmic level.

Laura: Well, one of the things that was going on in Babylon was that the king was the intermediary between the gods and the people. And, the king therefore had to be pure and righteous.

And, of course, when this started out, it was immediately after a previous cataclysm. And they were really nervous and scared from what all had happened. So, they were taking it seriously. And then, kings were really righteous and good and trying to be clean and proper and treat their people well.

But, over time, you know, this got corrupted because no more comets were coming, no more disasters were happening. So, you know, they thought, "Well, the gods had forgotten about us! We don't have to worry about that any more, we can go ahead and do what we want. And we'll just give it, you know - since it's the custom - we'll just give it a kind of lip service."But, you notice that what did happen was, when these disasters occurred, it was generally blamed on the king.

It was because the king had created some condition wherein the gods were no longer pleased, because the king was supposed to tell the people what to do. You were supposed to set the example. And if he was not telling people the right things to do, if he was not directing the people in the right way and, you know, this was a ritual flaw and the king had to die, you know. Or the king had to get clean pretty quick, one way or the other.
Usually, they had to die.

And towards the end of, say the Babylonian empire, and even the Assyrian empire - which came up, you know, after that collapse - you read a lot of these texts and they are basically interpretations from these specialists of 'interpreting the god's will'. And, the king would ask a question, you know, "I had a dream." You know, "what does it mean?" Etcetera, etcetera. So, you get these texts, here is the interpretation.

And what you notice in all of this is that some these kings, particularly towards the end of the Assyrian empire, they were having a lot of health problems. And the king is supposed to be perfect. And apparently they were making a great effort to conceal these health problems. And one is inclined to think that, for example, the last of the 18th dynasty in Egypt, Akhenaten and his gang, they were all clubfooted. They had various kinds of physical abnormalities - scoliosis, you know. They were inbred and defective.

And one suspects that the people turned against that dynasty so viscously, or as viscously as they did, because they figured that the terrible things that were happening - the plagues and so forth that were falling on Egypt at that time - were because the king was not just ritually unclean. But that he was physically and, obviously, impure. He was defective. So, there's a lot of that sort of thing. But that's not even the thing I want to talk about.
The thing I want to talk about is prophecy.

Pierre: Yes.

Laura: I mean, is there such a thing as prophecy and can it work? I mean, can people tune into future - I mean, if we live in an open universe, how can you tune into future events? I mean, that are -

Joe: Well, I have an example that people can listen to -

Laura: Yes.

Joe: Right now.
Recorder Voice: "His name is Morgan Andrew Robertson.

No, he wasn't a passenger on the Titanic. He was an American author who, in 1898, 14 years before the Titanic made the voyage, published a short story, originally titled 'Futility' and later renamed 'Wreck of the Titan.'

That in itself is not remarkable. What is remarkable is how eerily similar the events in his story are to those of the real life Titanic.
His story features an enormous British luxury liner called 'the Titan' which is described as the largest craft afloat and the greatest in the works of men. And, like the Titanic, was considered unsinkable.

The Titan is described as 800 feet in length; the Titanic was 882. The Titan carried 24 lifeboats, as few as the law allowed, less than half needed for her passenger capacity. The Titanic carried only 20 lifeboats, less than half the number required for her passenger capacity of 3000.

On an April night, the Titan, moving too fast at 25 knots, hits an iceberg in the North Atlantic, roughly 400 miles from Newfoundland. On April 14th 1912, 20 minutes before midnight, the Titanic, moving too fast at 23 knots, strikes an iceberg in the North Atlantic, 400 miles from Newfoundland.

The Titan sinks bow first, and 2500 souls are lost. The Titanic sinks bow first, and 2208 die in the frigid waters. In both cases, the agonizing screams of the dying are heard by survivors.

Morgan Andrew Robertson died on March 24th 1915; 11 months and 10 days after the Titanic went down."
Joe: That's the example. And it's pretty remarkable when you think, when you listen to the correlation between the details of his story, right down to - he was in a couple of hundred of the number of people that died -

Niall: Yeah. The length of the ship -

Joe: The length of the ship.

Niall: How it went down.

Joe: 880 feet. The same number, almost the same number of miles from Newfoundland. I mean, what, 23 knots and 24 knots - the speed they were; the fictional one and the real Titanic were travelling at? I mean, that's got to draw your attention; say, coincidence or?

Laura: Yeah, and he's not the only one who did that. There was another story that was similar. And it was published right around the time of the sinking. So, it had been written prior too. Now, I have a little example that I want to share. And I actually wrote about this in the introduction to our published versions of our Cassiopaean transcripts.

Let me read this little bit to you: 'Most prophecies that we know of from ancient times were written after the fact. Most predictions of more recent times, that I'm aware of, that have come to pass, so to say, have a peculiar characteristic. Let me give an example: the assassination of John F. Kennedy. This prediction was published in the Sunday Supplement Parade on May 13th 1956, and it was by Jeane Dixon. And it said, quote: "As for the 1960 election, Mrs. Dixon thinks it will be dominated by Labor and won by a democrat. But he will be assassinated or die in office. Though not necessarily in his first term."

But then, in 1960, when John Kennedy was actually in the race, Ms. Dixon predicted that he would fail to win the presidency.
So, we have here really kind of a remarkable, you know, problem to look at because how did she get it so right in 1956, four years before the election? And how did she get it so wrong in 1960? You know, what happened? And, this brings up another problem.

You have to keep in mind that, as far as we know, John Kennedy was targeted by a conspiracy that only came into being because he actually did manage to obtain the presidency, thanks to the countering machinations of his farther, which Jeane Dixon apparently did not perceive.
And then he shows his true populist colors, apparently he has some sort of, what would you call it, an awakening at some point. And basically decided that he was going to be a different kind of president than he had thought he was going to be to begin with.

So, he had an epiphany which is suggested by James Douglas in his book JFK and the Unspeakable. And, so, if predictions are possible because a person can tap into an information field or gather information from the mind of others telepathically, as would be suggested by reading a conspiracy - you know, telepathically tuning into the conspirators, the minds of the conspirators - that would mean that there was a conspiracy already afoot in 1956 to assassinate a president in 1960, whoever he was and no matter what he did.
So, it's kind of a little bit of a conundrum.

Joe: I have an explanation.

Laura: Yes?

Joe: The only way a conspiracy to kill JFK could have been in the minds of conspirators before he got elected was if they made themselves - the conspirators themselves - had some awareness of what he was going to do in the future.

Laura: Well, that's possible too.

Joe: Remote viewing; the fabled remote viewing, for example.

Laura: Yeah, there's remote viewing. And there's also another possibility that they decided that there was already a conspiracy afoot to assassinate a president, for purposes of putting a country into shock a la Naomi Klein, Shock Doctrine.

Niall: And JFK just happened to be the one.

Laura: Yeah, well -

Joe: No, he was chosen to be the one.

Laura: He was chosen to be the one, I would say.

Joe: He was shunted into power or allowed to become president, to be the sacrificial lamb.

Laura: Because, you know, if you read about how the American elections were being run even back then, you know that most of them were bought and paid for. I mean, ballot box '49.

Joe: And Douglas Reed explains it very well in 'Controversy of Zion'. That, what you call it, Mr. House, organizing elections way back in the early part of the 20th century, you know?

Niall: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: Picking and choosing.

Laura: Yeah, they pick and choose who's going to run, they pick and choose who's going to win. And they pick and choose, you know, what kind of drama is going to be played out during that presidency by that president. I mean, they are basically given their lines, you know. They walk in the White House and they are handed the script, you know, 'this is what you're going to do'. So, I mean, it's like - But the thing is, apparently John Kennedy didn't like the script. And they probably knew he wouldn't like the script. And they knew how he would react to the script. They obviously knew that Barack Obama would read any script they gave him.

Niall: Literally.

Pierre: And these ideas about remote viewing, prophecies in the future, might make sense if this cosmic information field transcends time and space, non-local and non-temporal. If this is the case, it totally changes our perception of linear time and of future.

It means you have some actors that are on the good side - like this prophetic lady - or on the bad side - those remote viewers plus the conspirators mentioned by Joe - who can go back and forth over the timeline and try to change things today in order to alter the future and choose the future that fits their goal the best.

So you have this permanent struggle between different sides to shape the future and to opt for the best future for their interest.

Laura: Well, yeah, that's one way to look at it. The whole thing is just, you know - we were talking earlier about this Babylon issue. And I pointed out that the book of Revelation, there are various scholars who have analyzed it - and one group of them say that it was written in the 1st century AD and maybe the 2nd - 1st or 2nd century. And it was a political tract.

There was a group of people who were communicating with one another in these 'metaphoric terms' about the politics of the day. And they had designated names, you know, kind of like codenames, like 007 or whatever. So then there was 'the Beast' or 'the Whore of Babylon' and there was, you know, all this sort of thing. But that doesn't really hold up very well because this kind of terminology is even more ancient than that. And it goes back to some of the ancient, what would you call it - the prophetic writings or interpretive writings that come up from Greece. So it's like, that really doesn't hold water.

Then the more interesting thing about it was that Fomenko analyzed that the first chapter, where it talks about the woman who flees into the desert and gives birth and the dragon that went after her and so forth; that he interpreted it as a horoscope. And shows pretty definitively that that's kind of like horoscopes would have been written in the 15th century. So, he designates - he actually figures out the date that this horoscope is describing. It's between late September and early October of, what, 1458? So -

Joe: Yeah, I mean, there's Babylon as the actual - I mean, there's the ruins of Babylon, etcetera. It was a town or city, whatever. But then there's the biblical narrative of Babylon, which is open to interpretation.

But, for example, there's the statement that the New Testament, Book of Revelation refers to Babylon many centuries after it ceased to be a major political center. And some scholars believe it to be the use of apocalyptic literature to refer to the Roman Empire.

Laura: Right, that's the ones I was referring to. They are -

Joe: But, is there some value or is that a valid interpretation? Because -

Laura: Well, it actually could be! Because, since we have an idea that Rome was going through some pretty heavy stuff. I mean, from before the time of Caesar, there was kind of like ongoing intermittent stuff. And it just got worse and worse and worse. And then Rome finally went kaflooey. And supposedly it was like, what was it, 540AD. And, Mike Baillie and other individuals - astronomers and dendochronologists - say that it was done by a comet. There are many more scientific studies being done on this, that cometary destruction was brought an end to Rome.
So, perhaps, it happened earlier than we are told in our historical timeline. Perhaps our historical timeline has been seriously manipulated. There has been a suggestion that it's like 478 years off. If that's the case, then we are actually in the year, what - 15...?

Niall: 1620 or so?

Laura: If you take 478 from 2014, what do you get?

Joe: Well like, 500 from 2014 is like?

Niall: Yeah, it's 15... it's 15... -

Pierre: Yeah, 1000... -

Joe: It's 1576 or 35, or something like that.

Laura: 1576; it's something like that.So then, if you take this 478 years off of the Greenland ice cores, you end up with, what is it?

Pierre: Year 1000, I think.

Laura: Yeah, 1010. And it just so happens that one of the strongest ammonium signals in the ice cores is registered for like 1008, thereabouts.
And, you know, so maybe our timeline has been that drastically altered. And then, if you calculate backwards to figure out when 540AD would have fallen, if you subtract 478 years from our timeline, you find that it's 63AD.

And that would put it right at the time of somebody writing something like Revelations. That, you know, 63AD is some time - supposedly Jerusalem fell in 70AD. So that would put it right at the right time.

And it's just - obviously, they were using previous apocalyptic literature of how these things happened and then they were describing what they were seeing. So, if the original parts of the Book of Revelation were written at that time, and they were written about Rome and the destruction of Rome, and then later on, this Kabbalist that Fomenko identifies as the author of at least that first chapter where he puts in a horoscope - perhaps he was sending a message to the future saying, you know, 'This story about the fall of Babylon, all this sort of stuff, this is the same thing that has happened in our time. And here is, you know, a clue to people in the future to be able to figure out when it actually happened. Here is, you know, a dated period.

And he just kind of added it on, redacted. That was fairly common back then because, to gain authority for a text, you generally jut took somebody else's stuff and added your own stuff to it. So -

Joe: It sort of strikes me in that sense then that if the Bible and the Old Testament and literature about Babylon and, I mean, I should quote you in your article where it says, you know, "She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit; drunk the wine of passion."

Laura: That's kind of generic.

Joe: Okay. But it's saying - at least keeping the tie between destruction from on high, be it god or whatever.

Laura: Because of behavior.

Joe: Because of behavior. At least that idea is still there as opposed to -

Laura: Absolutely.

Joe: Sacrificing goats to make it go away.

Laura: And it was definitely still there then. And the interesting thing is, it's like, this is the generic description of how these kinds of destructions happen, empire after empire. You read enough history, you read enough ancient texts; you find out that they start out well intentioned. They start out trying to be good because they got the bejeebees scared out of them from some kind of cataclysmic event.

And then, after a while, nothing more bad happens. And then, as happens, you know, everywhere, in all times and places, psychopaths warm their way into power - because power is what they naturally crave. And they all behave the same way, civilization after civilization.

So you always end up with the same kinds of corruptions, the same kinds of deeds and events taking place. The people being bamboozled and following after them and, you know, becoming corrupt themselves. Even if they are ordinarily decent people, they become corrupt themselves under the influence of psychopathy. I mean, look at, what's his name, the guy who did the experiments with people being instructed to shock people?

Joe: The Milgram.

Laura: The Milgram experiment. You know, they talk about how willing people were to inflict pain and suffering, even to death, on other people.
But, you know, the thing that doesn't get highlighted as much as it should is the fact these authoritative directors of the experiment -

Joe: Are to blame.

Laura: Were providing rationalization and instructions for this to be done. So, it's, you know, there are - most people follow the leader, most people want an authority. Most people are emotionally immature because they are made that way in our society.

Joe: That's one of the problems that I have always found with that, the Milgram experiment and its results - which is that people are only too willing to inflict pain on others, is that they didn't highlight enough the influences, as you have just said, of the authority figure.

Take the authority figure away and what those people have just spontaneously decided to inflict pain on another human being? Probably not.

Laura: No, it comes back to the same ideation of Babylon. The king is the intermediary between god and the people. He is the one who is supposed to, not only set the example, but instruct people how to behave in such a way that the entire city would be safe from, you know, the ravages of destruction because of bad behavior. He's supposed to set the example. Not only by his own behavior, but by leading them in a way, showing them what they're supposed to do, telling them what they're supposed to do.

And this comes through loud and clear in the ancient literature. So, you take the ancient city of Babylon or Sandy Milgram's prison experiment, you know, and you have the same - Nazi Germany, and now today. I mean, think about this whole thing about the way the world is right now. I don't know if anybody else is really pissed off about it as I am but, you know, it's like, the world we live in today is so different from the world we lived in, in the year 2000, that it's like a nightmare. And it has proceeded very, very rapidly. 2000 was - what, 14 years ago? In 14 years, we have gone to a fairly reasonable world - there were problems, there were frauds, the US was doing things that they shouldn't have been doing, the CIA, etcetera. Other countries were doing things they shouldn't have been doing.

But there was a tendency, the overt ideas, the principles that people adhere to; the behavior of people - you know, it was basically decent.
And now even ordinary people are completely -

Joe: The change that I see in particular from what you're talking about is that back then, before 2000 let's say, the authorities were being corrupted, evil and killing people and stuff, but they weren't doing it -

Laura: It was covert.

Joe: In people's faces. And not forcing people or demanding, trying to manipulate the population into accepting it. I'm thinking here of torture, getting people - under Bush, getting people to accept torture as good.

And now, most recently - there's plenty of other examples - but now most recently with the Israelis trying to get people to accept that killing Palestinians is good.

Laura: Yeah, killing Palestinians is okay.

Joe: So, they're directly trying to subvert the kind of minds and, I suppose, the most basic humanity of ordinary people, like devolving them.

Laura: It's not only setting a bad example, it is making people think that it is okay themselves. I mean, look at this cop that hit the news the other day. He made some rant about, you know, he doesn't have to follow the constitution because Obama doesn't.

Well, I mean, look at the example that George Bush set; it's ok to unilaterally and preemptively invade another country who has never bothered you in your freaking life. I mean, when did Iraq ever invade anything or anybody? "Oh, he might have weapons of mass destruction." He never had any of that weapons of mass destruction. So, he set this example. This example was accepted by the leaders of other countries. I mean, there was some shock I noticed around the world. People were, "Oh, wait a minute. Are you sure it's ok to do that?" You know, "Maybe you ought to think twice about that." "Oh no, we're going to go in there! We're going to, you know, slam down Iraq. And we're going to take their, you know, legally authorized ruler; and we're going to hang him".

And then they did the same thing to Libya; and then they started to try to do the same thing to Syria. So, the example was set by George Bush.
George Bush obviously was just a puppet. Okay, we'll say that right up front. He was obviously just a puppet. But he was a willing - he was a gleeful puppet. He was not just willing. He was feverishly gleeful. So, the example that is set by the leaders; it is accepted by other leaders within this sphere of influence.

And then, the people begin to behave that way. The people follow that, and it's a very precious few who actually can really see and really object and say, "Well, wait a minute! This is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!"

Joe: Yeah. I mean, for me it's a testimony to, I suppose, the essential kind of general decency and goodness - if I can go that far - in ordinary people that these leaders and this elite have had to - the people to such an extent to get them to go along with that kind of criminality that you're saying.

They had to, you know, Iraq was freedom and democracy. But, Iraq was first of all protecting the entire world from WMDs that didn't exist. But, then it's also, spreading wonderful freedom and democracy. And getting all these people to identify with these noble ideals to be accomplices in barbarity. And, in so doing, make them liable for it.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: And if there is any hell to pay - to quote a phrase - then the people who went along with it and bought the bullshit and bought the lies are responsible. I mean, that's it. The people need to accept that fact though. I'm sure none of them are listening to this show, the people whom I'm talking about, because most people who listen to this show have -maybe you know someone who's like this.

People need to accept the fact that - okay, you may not think that there is any kind of a judgment, and you don't believe in religion and stuff. There is no judgment day, there is no kind of penalty to pay for anything that humans do, you know.

But, if there's any doubt in your mind and you think there might be some cause and effect going on here, or some direct result of that kind of criminality that people have allowed themselves to be pulled into - well then, if you believe those lies and if you have gone along with any of the bullshit that's been told that is fundamentally - and you know it's fundamentally inhuman and wrong - then, just like in any legal case, if you have participated in a crime or a murder as an accomplice, you're going to jail too.

Laura: Yeah.

Pierre: And, maybe, the fact that the majority of human beings embrace those lies, accept and sometimes even promote this violence - the murder, the suffering, the torture - may be the final marker that starts the global reset process.

Because, if you look at it, when you have the whole population - human or not human - that is so much into lies, that is so much opposite to truth; there might be indeed a universal mechanism that starts this cleansing process.

Because, you have this very strong law, universal law, that permeates all creation for living entities to strive and to develop towards more complexity, more intelligence, more information, more creativity. And, isn't the mass belief of the worst lies one of the worse negations of all those life principles?

Laura: It's entropy.

Joe: Well, you're positing a possible - we don't know that such a law exists or that there is - there is no evidence.

Laura: I would say - oh wait, I think there's plenty of evidence in history as such. Because again and again and again, as I said, this description of what happened to Babylon is a generic description of what has happened repeatedly with the collapse and destruction of previous empires.
And, I mean, the most immediate one that we have to study is Rome, and we do have a sufficient number of texts and descriptions of what was going on - I mean, just some really bodacious descriptions of what happened there - to know how it came down.

But there is also fortunately a considerable amount of textual material available for the prior collapse, i.e. Babylon. You know, the Mesopotamian empires; you know, all of that.

Because, when things went kaflooey, when things started getting hot - I mean, literally hot and burning, you know - all of their clay tablets, you know, down in the basement got cooked and preserved for a very long time. And then they were discovered and many of them were deciphered.
I mean, there are thousands and thousands of these clay tablets that have not yet been translated. But people, scholars are working on it diligently and regularly and you can, you know, get copies of what's been done. It's a little pricey, but you can get these texts and read them.
And you see that's the same thing. Obviously, it's a little difficult translating and understanding, because the whole language thing - especially with a dead language, it's a little bit difficult. But you see the same things were going on. And you get the same things from Egypt, from the temple descriptions, from papyri.

Laura: So, yeah, can we say it's a law?

Joe: Well -

Pierre: Yeah, maybe in the sense Revelation would not only describe the fall of Babylon, the fall of the Roman Empire. But it describes more fundamentally an archetype - an archetypal situation - applying to the whole human population.

Laura: Well -

Pierre: When the same signs, when the same behaviors occur, the same cosmic reaction occurs. Well, and here is the rub: if you take into account the work made about morphic resonance and morphic field by Rupert Sheldrake - about how an individual population can learn a new pattern.
And the more this pattern is exercised, the stronger -

Laura: It becomes.

Pierre: It becomes in every representative of the species. You can apply that to the whole human population and see that -

Laura: It's like a pandemic.

Pierre: Recurringly, over history, you've had this fall of empire pattern enacted again and again. And right now the US, and I mean, the US is not a geographic identity. All the people resonating with this ideology are starting to resonate with this fall of the empire archetype.

Laura: Yeah.

Pierre: Pattern, habit. And once you have this resonance, it's very easy to go along the path. Once you resonate, it's difficult to go out.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, look at what's happening in Ukraine. Ukraine is following after the path of the US. Look, Germany is following after the path of the US. France has been following the path of the - you know, resonating with the US. Up until some years ago they were a little bit resistant. But, you know, all the NATO countries, they're all getting into this resonant activity and behavior. And they're being drawn into it and drawn along through it and it's just happening.

And, the thing is, like I just said, it is a pandemic of psychopathy. Psychopaths at the top have exhibited certain behaviors. They have set certain examples and the people have been taking these up, they've been obeying them, they have been enacting them themselves. It's okay for me to go and kill people.

It's okay for me to toss up the constitution; it's okay for me to - I mean, look at the cops. They're kind of like at the next level down from the people at the top there, the enforcers. Well, they're going along and they're behaving the same way the leaders behave.

So, it's going on and on. And we have this pandemic of psychopathy, and nature appears to be saying: "Wait a minute! You want to act like you've got a terrible disease that's eating you up from the inside, making your eyes, ears, noses and mouth bleed and dissolving your organs inside. Well, we'll just give you a little physical manifestation of that. You're going to get a physical taste of what you're doing spiritually, psychologically and emotionally. You get a little Ebola going on there."

Joe: Well, it's kind of interesting because, when you talked about, earlier on you talked about, during the Roman Empire 'leading to its fall' - quote-unquote - that there was a lot of stuff going on. It wasn't just overnight from -

Laura: It was going on for a number of years.

Joe: Right, kind of like it is now.

Laura: Kind of like it is now.

Joe: And at least then people, somebody might have had an idea that these were the signs and portents, i.e. weird weather, you know, volcanoes, earthquakes, plagues - this kind of thing.

All that stuff we've been having, at least then, they took notice of. Today, no one takes notice of it because it's just: "Oh, the weather's gone crazy. Oh, you know, Ebola, it's another one of those plagues".

Niall: Except for one group.

Joe: Except, people like Pat Robertson and _____.

Niall: Yes, the Christan fundies.

Joe: And they're the people who are actually, horribly as it is, they're the people who are the closest to the truth of the matter.

Laura: Oh yeah!

Joe: Compared to all of our wonderful scientists, who apparently know why all this weird weather is going on. They know, you know, doctors and medical professionals know about Ebola. And all the other things that are happening, we have the scientists to know about them and explain them away.

Yet, nutjobs like Pat Robertson, as far as we're concerned, are closer to the mark except, they're blaming the wrong people.

Laura: Except their interpretation.

Joe: They're blaming gays and liberals. And, I mean, if something big happens in the US where there's an earthquake or some major destruction, they're going to be the first ones to jump out and say: "See, we were telling you! It's the gays and the liberals and the ungodly practices of all the population. We've been saying this for years."

Laura: And they don't get it that it's the psychopaths at the top. Probably because they themselves are psychopaths.

Joe: Exactly. They are the ones. While they're pointing the finger at everybody else, they are the ones who brought it on, equally so.

Laura: It's their job. It's their job.

Pierre: This being said, you notice that among the elites; today modern elites, some of them are obviously getting ready for something to come.
So, some elites know at least partly that things are going to get bad. They're getting ready. But at the same time, they don't spread the knowledge. They keep it for themselves and they lead the masses towards the butcher - the slaughterhouse.

Joe: Yeah.

Pierre: To keep their power until the end. Because if they spread the word, it means the king is naked; it means civil unrest. It means loss of power of the elites.

Laura: Well - yeah, well, let's go back for a second to this idea of somebody being able to write a fiction book 14 years in advance of an event. And here we're talking about the Titanic.And in global terms, the sinking of a ship with 2000 people, you know; it's not like the tsunami - you know, the Boxing Day tsunami in -

Niall: 2004.

Laura: 2004 where, how many, half a million people were killed?

Niall: Quarter of a million.

Laura: Quarter of a million people? Okay. So, I mean, in those terms it's not - so you wouldn't imagine that something like the sinking of the Titanic would be some kind of morphic resonance thing in a cosmic information field.

Unless, of course, it was just simply the natural outcome of psychopaths in power, of capitalistic greed. You know, the greed that went behind the building of this ship, the hubris and the announcing of how unsinkable it was and -

Niall: JP Morgan.

Laura: Yeah, JP Morgan: 'Let's not put any, you know, enough life boats on there.' But, you know, getting the names right, getting the root, the details of the sinking so close, you know, that's really an astonishing feat.

Now, there are a few books written in the past - well, I don't know how many years, maybe 20 - within the past 20 years that, as far as I'm concerned, come astonishingly close to doing the same thing. Because, in fact, they describe things that are happening today; that are precursor type events that are happening today.

And then, of course, these books describe what then happens next. And, one of these books was called Mother of Storms. And I don't remember the author right off-hand. But it's about -

Joe: Strieber, Whitley Strieber?

Laura: No, no, that's not Mother of Storms. No, this was a science fiction book. And it was about - it actually was some kind of dystopian-type situation, where Russia and the US where kind of at odds with each other. And somebody was shooting missiles up in the Arctic. And these Arctic missiles, you know, caused the release of massive amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, which then caused these massive superstorms.
It was like this giant hurricane that covered the whole planet. Or there were several of them, and they all merged in one giant superstorm. And all this terrible stuff happened.

And the author of it - I think, John Gribbin?No, no; John Gribbin did the other one.Anyhow - the guy who wrote this book, he was a science fiction writer. And he did some research into hurricanes and giant storms and so forth. And he goes on about heat exchangers and so forth.He doesn't talk anything about electrical phenomena. But he gives some very interesting science of how these storms would develop and, you know, carbon dioxide and so forth.So there's that; he wrote this book.And we see all this crying and yelling about global warming - well, yeah, there's been global warming!Global warming in the sense of having hot spots here, and hot spots there, and cold spots here, and cold spots there; all of which is very typical for the onset of an ice age.

Okay, the second book was called, I believe, The Sixth Winter. That's the one that John Gribbin contributed. He was one of the co-authors of it, I believe.And his idea was that there was some secret government report where they were talking about an oncoming ice age. And their secret government report said that, if there are six winter that - or five winters in a row - they're really, really cold - the sixth winter will be the onset of the ice age, because the sixth winter will never end.

And in this book, interestingly, he talks about what he calls ice tornadoes. He talks about the strange behavior of animals. You know, wolves suddenly coming out of their habitats; you know, attacking people in their homes. You know, bears acting strange; you know, as though some ancient, hardwired behavior was suddenly being activated by this extreme cold, by this series of cold winters.

You know, which doesn't seem so impossible now, now that we know a lot about epigenetics. And how what a person experiences, or their grandparents experience - what your grandparents experience can be passed on to your parents, and what your parents experience can be passed on to you. Because these various chemical changes can induce changes in your DNA.

So, say, wolves who were experiencing 5 winters in a row - and they were very, very cold - it could induce changes in their DNA, which would turn on hardwired behavior when they would start coming out of their natural habitats and attacking human beings, as he described in this book.
And then he had the ice tornadoes, which were like giant ice storms that would freeze things instantaneously. And that of course makes you think of...

Joe: The Day After Tomorrow.

Laura: The Day After Tomorrow. As well as the -

Joe: The book that it was based on.

Laura: Yeah. Well, okay, so there was the mammoths, or the -

Joe: Wooly mammoths.

Laura: Were they mammoths or were they mastodons? I don't remember.I think they were mammoths.

Joe: Mammoths.

Pierre: Mammoths, instant-frozen.

Laura: Mammoths from Siberia that were apparently -

Joe: Flash frozen.

Laura: Flash frozen.Now, you know, that's something that used to really bug the hell out of me. Because I'd read about these things, and I'd say, "Flash frozen?"I mean, we're talking about a fairly large chunk of meat there. I mean - not being rude to the mastodon here - but it's a fairly large chunk of meat.

And, you know, most women nowadays have freezer in their homes. And they know how long it takes - you put a package of meat or roast or a package of burgers or something in the freezer. And you know what the temperature is.What's our...

Joe: -18°C.

Laura: -18°C. We have -18°C in our freezer. And it takes a considerable amount of time for a chunk of meat to freeze.

Pierre: Small chunk -

Joe: A few hours at least.

Pierre: Hours!

Laura: Yeah, it takes hours for a chunk of meat to freeze.So, you've got this really large creature -

Pierre: Tons.

Laura: That is flash frozen with food in his mouth. He's chewing, and he's frozen with food still in his mouth.

Joe: You're talking about hundreds of degrees, or at least a couple of hundred of degrees, below freezing.

Laura: Do we have any estimate on how cold that would have to be?

Pierre: You have three factors at work here.To quantify the heat exchange - how quickly it will cool down - there will be the temperature, the absolute temperature, the medium, air. You have the strength of the wind. And you will have the content of the environment: water, ice versus air.
To maximize the enthalpy, the freezing factor, you need to minimize the temperature to be -50°C. You have to maximize the content of water, which is much more conductive than air. And you have to maximize the speed of the wind.

So this instant-frozen mammoth suggests a very strong wind, with a lot of ice or water in it, and a very low temperature. That is how you freeze quickly a thick piece of meat.

Laura: Yeah, you're talking - I mean, we went down and we did this cryotherapy.I don't know if anybody has ever tried cryotherapy. But you get in this chamber. And in the chamber - we're using liquid nitrogen - the temperature is reduced very quickly to, what, -70°C or -80°C?

Pierre: Or lower - well into a -100°C.

Joe: But for a very brief period of time though.

Laura: Yeah.

Pierre: Because the wind is dryer.

Laura: Yeah.So, here I am - I was there, myself, personally. I get in this cryochamber, you know. And I'm in my undies, right? Because you want maximum skin exposure so you can really get cold, right? You want some cold shocks going on there.I'm in there in my undies, and they start dropping the temperature. And I'm watching the little digital readout telling me how low - I mean, it's freaking painful!

Joe: Yeah, just for a few seconds.

Laura: And it's just, you're in there for like a total of -

Joe: A minute and a half, two minutes.

Laura: Yeah. I think we were in there for 3 minutes.

Joe: Depending how long you can stand it, yeah. But it builds up.

Laura: Some people started crying at one minute.

Joe: It builds up to the colder temperatures at the end. So it's just slowly over the three minutes.

Laura: But it's extremely, extremely - I mean, it's painful! It's like being cut with knives.

Joe: Yeah.

Laura: And we're not talking about any wind, we're not talking about any moisture - it's very dry, it's very cold; there's no wind or anything. And it feels like your flesh is being flayed from your body.

Niall: Nice!

Joe: I would say - I think the coldest temperatures are beamed up to like -50°C, -60°C.

Pierre: Ninety. -90°C.

Joe: Have they recorded it?

Pierre: In Vostok, yeah.

Joe: Oh, yeah?

Niall: Well, in Antarctica last year they broke the record.

Laura: What was it?

Niall: I think it was -80°C something.

Laura: -80°C?

Joe: Yeah, I don't think it was above -90°C.

Pierre: Previously it was -88°C, and now it's -90°C.

Joe: -90°C.

Laura: Ninety.So, in other words, we're talking about an external, environmental temperature that was as cold as this cryochamber can get.

Joe: Yeah, with wind - like you're saying, with strong wind.

Laura: With winds, with snow and all that.

Joe: Yeah, that would do it though!

Laura: Okay.So, this is how - this has to be how - these mammoths were frozen.

Joe: Exactly.

Laura: In ice tornadoes!

Joe: And where they were beforehand, which is now under ice - because they were dug up from ice - it was temperate.

Laura: But obviously, it was quite a different environment.

Joe: But it very quickly turned into a frozen - an ice sheet, right?Immediately, something came in. And, at least in that area were the mammoth was, froze it and the surrounding area. Immediately.

Laura: So anyhow, getting back to the line of thought here that I'm trying to trace, we've got this book Mother of Storms and we've got this book The Sixth Winter.And then along comes, quite a few years later, Whitley Strieber - who writes his. He and Art Bell write a book called The Coming Global Superstorm.

Now, reading Mother of Storms and reading The Sixth Winter suggests to me that Strieber and Bell possibly could have read those books and borrowed on those ideas. But it's not even necessary that they did.

Look at the example of this guy that wrote about the Titanic, and another person who had not read his book who wrote something similar - and I don't have that information right now, it's in my article on SOTT. But there was another person who wrote something that was rather similar. And it was being published at that time.

So, there were these two sources. And, you know, for all we know there may have been others that we just aren't made aware of them.
So, we've got two books here. And then a third book - Strieber's and Bell's The Coming Global Superstorm.

And then we have the movie The Day After Tomorrow - which, you know, seems to me pretty obvious that it was based on The Coming Global Superstorm. And he talks in there about global warming, changing the salinity of the North Atlantic, which changes the Gulf Stream. And then all of a sudden things start getting cold, and then you start getting these storms. And if you look at the movie The Day After Tomorrow, you see hale where there's never been hale before, you see rain and floods where there's never been rain and floods before - at least not to that extent.
You see these, you know, ongoing deluges and so forth - which are all kind of like product of 'global warming.'

Because, when you have global warming, you have, you know, this excessive evaporation into the atmosphere supposedly and then you have the precipitation.Well, as Pierre demonstrates in his book, Earth Change and the Human-Cosmic Connection, there are other factors that are involved in getting, you know, massive falls of rain. And one of those factors is the weakening of a magnetic field. Because, when the Earth's magnetic field weakens, then we get a lot more cosmic rays. And these cosmic rays form nuclei for water to precipitate on to land.

Well, interestingly, there was a map published recently - a couple of weeks ago or three weeks, a month ago - showing, you know, they mapped the weakening of the Earth's magnetic field. Now, it's been in the news numerous times over the last couple of years that the Earth's magnetic field is getting weaker - weak and really fast. And it shows that it is weakest over the whole North American continent. Well, it also kind of includes South America; so the Western hemisphere has a much weaker magnetic field than the so-called Eastern hemisphere.

You know, guess it's just your perspective whether it's East or West, but North and South America have very weak magnetic fields which means that they are probably subject to somewhat more cosmic ray penetration, which can lead to variation in the weather that are extremely unpleasant. We noticed this meandering jet stream that came down on the US and froze the hell out of them last winter. And now it's predicted to happen again in the fall for the US.

Niall: Well, it never really went away.

Laura: Yeah.

Niall: That loop has stayed over the summer.

Laura: Yeah. So, one wonders what are the connections between the meandering jet streams and the weakening magnetic fields.
Well anyhow, prophetically speaking, what are these people tapping into?

And I think it's something similar to what Pierre's talking about. It's like, you know, these psychopaths tap into, or they're connected to some kind of cosmic way, to an entropic, negative, destructive, chaotic archetype. And they draw, they channel, they are the active conduits of that energy into our reality.

And they began to act in certain ways that are well recorded throughout history. And the way they act then began to be adopted by the people that they ruled, because psychopaths rise into positions of power. That's what they do; they crave it, they have the talent for it, the mask of sanity, they have the assurance or confidence - all these qualities that make them such great rulers supposedly. And then they completely corrupt everything they rule.

Look at what George Bush did. Look at what - I mean, I know he's just a freaking puppet!But it's still, you know, I am really, really pissed off because when they did the whole 9/11 thing, they ruined the progress this planet was making. Now, you know, I can't get any rest because there's so much horrible stuff going on all over this planet. I can't even sit down and enjoy my flowers or, you know, read a book for pleasure because I have to spend all my time researching and paying attention to what's going on on this planet because, you know, I can't do otherwise. I get no rest, because everything is so awful and I can't turn away from it. I can't stop watching it, I can't. I can't give up trying to put something different out there.

Pierre: Yes.

Laura: So I'm pissed off!

Pierre: And that's a key point. Trying to put something different out there. Because the Milgram experiment shows that human beings follow authoritative figure for the worse, but it also suggests that if the authoritative figure was showing positive paths, they would follow too.
Because, if you look at this archetype - corruption, psychopaths in power, destruction, lies, leads to cosmic reaction, resetting and then you start from scratch. Obviously, the psychopathic elite won't change - they are mechanical, they are wired only this way; striving towards destruction, power and greed. The cosmic reaction won't change, it's a universal law. If there's too much corruption, too much suffering, too much lies - there's a reset.

So, the only adjustment reliable in this whole equation is us; human beings. We can choose which frequency we resonate with. And to simplify this scenario, there are two main thought centers. Negative, psychopathic, lie-based thought center.

And there is another center based on the truth. Based off what Laura just described, what she's spending her days and years for, trying to provide simply an objective assessment of reality.

And now, if we don't want to repeat history - like Babylon, like Rome - the only source of hope, and I think it's very tiny, not saying we're not getting there -

Laura: Yeah.

Pierre: But the only source of hope - the necessary condition - is to have this positive or this truth 'thought center'; and then, more difficult, is to have a more critical mass of human beings who resonate with it.

Laura: And that's very difficult because - like you said - I mean, it's like, these masses of people follow their leaders. And the leaders set the example. And then they bring death and destruction on them.

And, of course, I think at some point, you know, even these masses of people are going to realize. I mean, maybe they won't. Because, you know, what do they say about Noah? You know, one of the most ancient stories, which they borrowed.

Joe: Was turned into a horrible movie?

Laura: The Mesopotamian's story; what does it say? It says that up until the last hour, when Noah went into the Ark, they were partying hearty and, you know, doing whatever they were doing. And then it says in Mathew - which is kind of reiterating the story of Noah: 'As it was in the days of Noah.'

Joe: Yeah.And people - I mean, just in terms of what we do and what a lot other people are probably listening do - which you just described so well; kind of keeping a watch on what's going on, and fighting against the propaganda, we've only recently figured out, you know, in more detail why we're doing that or understood why we're doing it.

We've always been moved to do that. And it's basically fighting for all of the people out there who are kind of in play in terms of there being - that the powers that be are tempting to subvert them, attempting to make them accomplices to the crimes of the elite. And thereby imperil their lives and their future.

And we are there trying to shout as loud as we can, and point out the fact that you're being manipulated, you're being lied to. And it's not just about the fact you're being lied to, it's about the fact that you being lied to is going to cause a lot of pain.

Laura: It's going to have consequences.

Joe: A lot of suffering and it's all on you.You know, we're not just doing this from an ideological perspective anymore. I mean, it starts out as a 'truth versus lies' ideology, but now we're kind of fleshing out the details.

And it's becoming much more real in the sense that your very lies are at stake here as a result of this sort of abstract battle that's going on between truth and lies. It does become real.

Laura: It's a battle for people's minds, because your mind begins to resonate with the psychopaths, with their standards, with their behaviors.
If you accept that torture is okay under some circumstances or, you know, if your national security is at stake - the minute you have accepted that, you have resonated to their lies. Because it has been proven, again and again, with scientific studies that when you torture people, you never get the truth.

Pierre: And we should not underestimate the power of the mind.I think that's why the elites kept trying to discredit what they labeled 'parapsychology' or 'metaphysics' - in order to destroy the very real connection between the mind and the universe.An individual mind - based on belief, based on several emotional states, several parameters - can have an influence on reality. Not talking about wishful thinking or 'create your own reality', but we're talking about a link between what people, what an individual thinks, and what happens around.

So imagine now, seven, eight billion people - all resonating in perfect tune on the same lie frequency, all embracing the same values; wrong values. All seeing the same distorted, untrue vision of the world. And then you can imagine the massive negative signal sent to planet Earth, and the possible consequences.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely.And there's various ways to look at it and they're all kind of true, you know. I mean, we're talking about more of a - okay, it's not exactly science. But it's in the realm of science, as Pierre described in his book - this idea of there being consequences for 'human', you know, kind of 'corruptions.'

Laura: There's more scientific support for those ideas than there is for most of the stuff that passes as - what do you call it? Astronomy, astrophysics. And even -

Joe: Cosmology.

Laura: Physics and cosmology!I mean, it's just, you know, it's just incredible that the lies of science itself get propagated as widely as they do, considering that science is supposed to be the discipline.

Joe: That's why it's so important, I think. It's much more important to try and put it within a scientific framework - because it's too easily dismissed when it's in a religious framework.I mean, it is in a religious framework - where, you know, you have to follow the teachings of Jesus, whatever, and live a good life or you'll be punished. I mean, that's the essence of it right there.

But that's too easily twisted and distorted. Are people going to simply dismiss it as a hokum from a book written by someone else?

Laura: Well, they do. Even when it is put in scientific terms, they just dismiss it.

Joe: But if you can get to the point where you could describe it from a scientific point of view, there would be less chance of it being dismissed, you know, as an actual scientific kind of 'cause and effect'; that is based on real laws of nature.

Pierre: You are right. What is very frustrating is that you have historical proof of this human-cosmic connection: the fall of the empires, again and again, and again.

Laura: And they always fall following the same sequence of events: sequence of events, fall of empire.

Pierre: Same story.You have the spiritual proof. All religions basically just say the same about this 'responsibility of human beings' and 'consequences of deeds'.And you have a tremendous amount of scientific proof: ESP experiments, telekinesis experiments, grouping influence experiment, role of the observer. All that has been highly documented. You have meta-studies about ESP and telekinesis - you have meta-meta-studies.You have this REG experiment conducted in Princeton, 2.5 million trials. You have a tremendous amount of evidence then.
But here, what you said, Joe, is true; more evidence is better. But I think you're facing something that transcends reason, and transcends common sense and logic.

Because, as Laura said - 'redshift cause' or 'anti-matter' - you have a lot of widely accepted "scientific concepts" - that have no evidence, scientific evidence, to back them up at all. And everybody believes it!

Laura: And they aren't falsifiable. You can't even, you know - I mean, they are not even scientific.

Pierre: By definition. But everybody embraces it.On the other side, you have this metaphysics that crumbles with tons of evidence, and then it is still massively denied.So, here you're touching the realm - you enter the realm of beliefs.

Laura: It's science. Science becomes a belief system.And what you're just saying makes me think of what's going on in Ukraine right now; what's been going on in Israel, what's been going on in Syria.You know, you have the evidence - evidence, evidence. And then you have them just, you know - you have the Ukrainians saying "Oh, Russia's giving weapons to the separatists," or "Russia shot down this airplane." You know, "Russia did this, Russia did that!"

And all the evidence that keeps coming out is absolutely to the contrary. But nobody's paying attention to the evidence - or very few people. And they're listening instead to these wild declarations of absolute horse hockey.And the same thing with 9/11 - they started it with 9/11. I mean, it was just crazy!

Pierre: And here you're reaching a very fundamental duality.On one side, we are preaching or defending a fact-based, objective assessment of reality. Reality of what it is; based on the facts, on the observation, on the proof, on the evidence.On the other side, you have a group of people that think in exactly the opposite way. They create their own reality. They are bathing in wishful thinking. Reality conforms to their wishes.
You have two opposite paradigms that are currently opposing, and people have to choose.

Joe: It's even worse than that. Because the reality creators - the reality that they create out of their mind comes from a fundamentally kind of destructive mindset, you know.It's - well, it's just to destroy, dominate and control. That's pretty much their primitive, you know, substratum, right? That's all they have. They don't have the other things - of kind of, you know, love and care and consideration. And, you know, companionship, and community and that kind of stuff.

They just want to control and destroy. And that's their motivation. And they try and - I mean, people like that - people with that defect, essentially - in any society should be shunned, because of what they try and do. Because they marry this destructive mindset with this belief that they can; whatever they see is real.

So, what you get is you get destruction. Because that's what's in their head, and they try to impose it on the world. They take the no stock out of objective reality, they think they are their reality and what they think is the reality. In any normal society, they would be shunned. They should be shunned.But, how the hell did they end up in power over us?

I mean - that's just a cosmic joke, it's ridiculous. It's not - I mean, that should never have happened. I mean, why would that ever - really? I mean, unless ordinary people are just inferior to them in some way - and they are, I suppose, to a certain extent inferior to them. Because why are we all, why is the entire world, under their control and unable to do anything about it - when you've essentially got defective human beings leading us all? How did that happen?

Pierre: Well, there's a - it's not an easy choice between truth and lies.There's also a choice that goes with it - between pain and comfort, or the illusion of comfort.

Laura: Yeah.

Pierre: Often, truth is painful. So again, it's this dichotomy between a comfortable lie and a painful truth. So, it's not only a choice on an intellectual level - what is true, what is not. It is a choice at a - in all the sets of our body, in our brain, you know.

Laura: Taking the easy way is part of it. Because, you know, one of the evolutionary features of the human being is to conserve energy - and that's not only physically but mentally. And conserving energy means that when something comes along and it's easy and it's comfortable, it will be favored over something that's more difficult.

And we start doing that with ideas, and thoughts and things. And we start; somebody tells us something.Okay, you're eating that salad, and it's a really delicious salad and really tastes good. You know, wonderful dressing, lettuce, tomatoes and everything and then somebody tells you that, "You know, that lettuce and tomatoes came from Mexico, where they're starving. And they make these people work for just a peso a day in the fields to grow that lettuce. And they pick those tomatoes, and they go back and live in their little hovels."

"And all of the produce of their country is shipped out of their country to the United States, so that you can sit there and have that wonderful, delicious salad - while other people are hungry or children are being forced to make tennis shoes for you to wear. You love those tennis shoes, or clothing or, whatever, TVs, computers, etcetera."And somebody tells you about, you know, the suffering that is behind this pleasurable object or item that you have. And you're going to shut that out, because the pleasure that you're experiencing is desirable - and you don't want to experience that as a pain, so you shut that out.

So, you start doing that, and you do it about everything. And you start doing it habitually.And then, you start habitually lying to yourself. And you start habitually, you know, figuring things out - jumping to conclusions.And because of these kinds of behaviors, this 'selection and substitution' in your mind - you know, you begin to believe lies. And you believe lies because it makes you feel good. You believe lies because it makes you feel comfortable. You believe your leaders because they make you feel safe.

And then what happens after that is that, you know, if somebody tries to tell you the truth, it causes the release of neurochemicals in your brain. You know, somebody really makes you face something that make your brain hurt. And this kind of pain - these neurochemical mixtures that people experience under certain kinds of circumstances - is like a short stab of major depression.

Now, people who are depressed - you get that, you know, seriously, clinically depressed have brains like that all the time, or for at least for an extended period of time, or a long time. And most people don't like that; they don't like that feeling, because it feels like you're falling into a deep dark hole of blackness and despair.So, they'll do anything to turn off that feeling. And that means, lie to themselves: "Oh, it's okay! What they're saying isn't true. What you're telling about those poor Mexicans -"And they start nitpicking.

"So, those Mexicans, they really don't have it so bad. Or they're really just lazy anyway; they don't deserve to eat this lettuce.""I deserve this lettuce, because I am - you know, I go to my job every day, and I'm a good person. I am an American, I'm exceptional. I deserve lettuce! Those Mexicans, they don't need that lettuce."So, you lie to yourself - and you tell yourself these kinds of things - to make yourself feel better. To stop that pain in your brain. And that's the kind of thing that happens. And that's the quality of human beings that psychopaths use and play on.

Joe: That's another really raw deal that humans get - just by being human.And it causes an awful lot of problems on this planet. It's that lack of plasticity in the brain that we lose as children, where, once a certain belief is taken onboard, it becomes almost hardwired. And there's nothing any objective evidence can do - or very little it can do - to change it.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: I mean, that's terrible, you know. I mean, it doesn't mean even - it's almost like it's not allowing for error, you know, or for manipulation or for lies. Someone comes along, lies to you, you believe them. You set up a belief they acknowledge. But then, more data comes in. And you should be allowed to change it without feeling pain. There shouldn't be an impediment to learning.

Laura: Well, then - yeah. But that's part of our evolutionary, you know, advantage.Because in order to survive under, you know, early evolutionary - I mean, say a hominid, or a pre-human or pre-Homo sapiens. You know, they have to evaluate things based on heuristics. Heuristics means, you know, it's kind of like a rule of thumb. When you hear that growling sound, that is the saber-toothed tiger, you know, and this is what you must do. Any you don't stop to check and make sure that the growling sound is necessarily a saber-toothed tiger or not.

You just got it imprinted in your brain from earliest trauma - you know, your mother's knee: you hear that sound, saber-toothed tiger, run. And so that becomes imprinted; and if you didn't do it instantaneously based on hardwiring, you wouldn't survive.

Joe: Yes, so there isn't the option. It's not a good idea to have the option to second guess yourself in those things. Because, in the animal kingdom, it always is: a growl is a saber-toothed tiger.So there is no need second guess.But for humans -

Laura: Right. But we've carried that into our thinking, self-reflective civilization.

Joe: And it's more complicated than this - because the flip side of it is that a saber-toothed tiger can come along and sing sweet nothings. Not growl anymore!

Laura: Yeah. Because our predators, the predators that prey on human beings, can imitate sweet singing, little birdies.

Joe: Or members of the same -

Laura: And we don't know that their sweet songs are masking the growl of the saber-toothed tiger, figuratively speaking.

Joe: So it's much more complex and difficult.

Pierre: Yeah. And that explains why psychopaths use this 'boiling frog' strategy. Because - and that shows how dangerous it is to believe a lie, even a petty lie in the beginning.Because you build neural connection according to your experience. If you start to believe even a minor lie, you will start to build this neural pathway - lie-based and pleasure-inducing pathway. And then, the elites can build up on this initial neural pathway, and increase the lie load to end up making us accept the most unacceptable things - like torture and murdering of children.

Once you're in this pathway - you're in this resonance, you're in this destructive archetype lie-based dynamics - you almost enclosed in it. You're resonating in it, and living the lie highway becomes extremely painful.And it's - what you say about the sweet song sung by wolves in sheep's clothing is also an important factor. Because one of the big strengths of psychopaths is not so much the lie that they deliver, but the way they deliver it.

Joe: Yeah.

Pierre: We are hardwired to read emotions, emotional contents. And psychopaths are masters at projecting this emotional context of certainty, reliability, sure of themselves, convincing, charming - that will switch our emotional response and state, and make us very more likely to accept the lies.

Laura: And then there's another factor. Shock.

Joe: That's a big one, yeah.

Laura: When you're in a state of shock and somebody comes along - confidence and surety, and they have the answers, and they're going to fix it, and they're going to protect you - you are way more likely to take that imprint in that state of shock than otherwise.I mean, look at how many people in the US bought the lies of 9/11.

Joe: Yep. It was designed to do that anyway.

Laura: And look how many people are buying the lies of 'Israel versus Gaza', and how many people are buying the lies of 'Ukraine versus Russia.'
And actually, you have to understand Ukraine is not doing this all on its own. It's got the US pulling the strings, via NATO, behind it.
And meanwhile, you've got this guy - this very decent, very clever guy - Vladimir Putin.And you know, that's very interesting. I just thought of that. The center of - I think the center of the greatest magnetic fields, or the greatest -

Pierre: Strongest?

Joe: The strongest, yeah.

Laura: The strongest magnetic field on the planet today is like, kind of like right over Russia? You know. So, and which is not to say that they haven't had some weird things going on over there too because, certainly, it's planet-wide; and we're not talking about a massive variation here.But, it's, you know, here he is - I mean, everything I have ever seen this guy say - and I have watched dozens of videos, and I have read texts of his speeches, and I have observed and observed; and the man stands up there and tells as much of the truth as he is able to tell at any given time and not get shot on the spot.

And meanwhile, there's this huge propaganda machine run by the West, that is completely psychopathic and it has been running day and night, day and night, day and night - for years and years and years, and it's just ramped up.And it is; it's a battle for people's minds. A battle for their souls.

And even a lot of people in Russia have bought into the Western propaganda. Look at the people in Ukraine that have bought the Western propaganda; people all over Europe that have bought into Western propaganda. And here they are following a country that is how many trillions of dollars in debt? And it has its own oligarchs; it has its complete failures. It's got probably, you know, 30-50% unemployment rate. It has a most incredible homeless problem. It has millions of people in prison. I mean, this is the country that they're admiring and wanting to emulate? Yeah. And that brings us back to our Whore of Babylon.

Joe: Yeah. But, it's kind of, though - using the analogy again of: people have been conned and fooled into being accomplices in crimes against humanity essentially, against their own humanity. And that's been going for a long time.But, for a long time, people could have been kind of excused to some extent, because they didn't know. A lot of it was being doing done covertly, and the manipulation and lies were very strong. And people wanted to feel good about themselves and - particularly, like in the West, in the USA - they were told, you know, "You're all good people."
And these were kind of - a lot of them, let's say - good people.

Laura: Americans are really, basically very good, decent people. They're helpful, they're friendly.

Joe: So, in the sense where the US government is saying, "We're going off around the world here to spread freedom and democracy. And it's everybody in American, you all have freedom and democracy, and you like it. And it's good and you're good people. We want to give this to other people." And you can excuse people for buying into that lie, to some extent.

Laura: Yeah!

Joe: But now, getting back to the last kind of 14 years, the masks of the rulers of the world who manipulated the ordinary people are starting to slip. And they're starting to show -

Laura: What they really are.

Joe: More and more, what they really are.
And, even Putting coming along is - for me - a kind of, on a more abstract level, another opportunity by the universe, let's say, to provide another chance -

Laura: A way out.

Joe: For these people to see that they're being lied to, that they're not on the right side, that they are being made accomplices to crimes against humanity.And, but that can only go on for so long before -

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: I mean, once you've really spelled it out to people, and given them all a fair chance, then you decide, 'Okay, well, people have made their choice.'If against all the evidence we have provided to the contrary - as in exposing the fact that they're being lied to and manipulated and they're on the wrong side of humanity essentially - if they still choose to go with the psychopathic ideal and - then, okay, you've made your choice.

Pierre: Going back to the magnetic field - a magnetic field which is extremely weak in the US, and very strong over Russia.
Not only, as Laura mentioned, weak magnetic field means more incoming cosmic rays, acting as nuclear agents, increasing cloud cover, rainfall, lightning, hurricane, tornadoes and those kind of atmospheric phenomena; but also the electromagnetic field of the Earth acts as a binding agent of the crust of the planet itself.

So it means weaker magnetic field, on a telluric level, induces an opening up phenomena - leading to phenomena like earthquakes -

Laura: Volcanic eruptions.

Pierre: Volcanic eruptions, sinkholes, outgassing and massive wildfires. So, underneath it gets kaflooey, and up there it gets kaflooey. So it doesn't -

Niall: That reminds me of the story of Atlantis; that an entire continent can disappear under the oceans.

Joe: Yeah. Although, it's like the one of the biggest and most impressive "sinkholes" has appeared, at least two or three of them now, over in Russian territory.So, I think, nowhere in the world is going to be spared this kind of 'opening up' side effect.

Laura: Nowhere, no.

Pierre: You're right. And the field overall is decreasing all over the planet.

Niall: Yeah.

Pierre: In some places, it's decreasing faster - like in the US - but Russia is also affected. It's a global event but with some local variations.

Laura: Yeah.So, anyway, coming back to Chapter 18 of Book of Revelation, among the things it says - it's talking about Babylon having already fallen. It's looking at it from a distance, having already happened.And if we assume that this was written about the collapse of Rome, it's pretty interesting. But it says that, you know, as we said, what happened in Rome is happening here now. And I can assure you that Caesar wasn't the cause of the collapse of Rome. He was the last one who tried to save it, because Rome was actually an imperial society beginning with the Pyrrhic War - when they began to war against all the city states in Italy and take them under their control. And then the Pyrrhic War had occurred because of their aggressions against the southern city states of Magna Graecia. And then, after that, the Punic Wars against Carthage. And by the time the Carthaginian Wars were over, which was 100 years or more before Caesar came along, or - well, not exactly 100 years. His uncle, Marius, was in the last of the Punic Wars.

But anyway, he came along and made a last-ditch effort trying to save it, and he wasn't trying to be a king. And then he was assassinated and then that was the end, that's all she wrote. So, I would say, if our reconstructed timeline is correct, within 100 years Rome was destroyed.

Joe: Isn't it interesting that Caesar was accused of trying to be a dictator?

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: And that's exactly what they're accusing Putin of these days?

Laura: Oh yeah, there are many similarities actually between Caesar and Putin and John Kennedy too - so, you know, it doesn't bode well. But, you know, we can keep our fingers crossed and if we can wake enough people up, maybe there'll be some safety.

Pierre: And going back to the Bible: not only Caesar maybe extended for a few decades the life of the Roman Empire, but he gave it a tremendous legacy that lasted for millennia to millennia. If you look at the Old Testament, you have -

Laura: Two millennia, assuming.

Pierre: Yeah, or one and a half - according to a Fomenko, and us.But if you look at the Old Testament, you already have this creed based on deception, destruction, vengeance, murder. And the New Testament, which is based on Caesar's message - who was transformed into Jesus - is a totally opposite message, based on mercy, on loving your neighbor and loving other human beings; of solidarity.

And maybe this Christianity creed, with all its defects, managed to counter, to some extent, the destructive creed carried by the Old Testament and prevented more, much more frequent cataclysms. And that's why today, Christianity - and all forms of similar religions - actually are being destroyed day after day. And it's not surprising if Vladimir Putin is one of the few leaders who's trying to preserve the Orthodox Christianity tradition of his country.

Laura: Yeah. Because a lot of the modern Christianity versions that go on in the US are completely twisted. You know, this prosperity gospel: 'Jesus wants you to drive a Mercedes', you know - that kind of -

Niall: Yeah.

Pierre: Yep.

Niall: Russia always had a different Orthodoxy.

Laura: Yeah, well - Eastern Orthodox, which is closer to original Christianity than Catholicism was and then the splinter-Protestant groups.
But anyhow, what did our author of Revelation have to say - how did he describe this empire and how does that apply? I mean, these archetypal descriptions; how do they apply to the US? I want to just give you a couple of excerpts.

It says, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality; and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality."

That is, if anything ever was, a perfect description of the United States; its so-called democracy, its so-called capitalistic system, and the way it has spread its sphere of influence into the West, you know - Western Europe and many other countries too in fact.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled as high as heaven, and God has remembered her. Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, "I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning."

And does that describe the attitude of the psychopaths running the US that have been running it for a long time, and even has been adopted - by their influence and example - by the majority of the people of the US?

"For this reason, in one day her plagues will come - pestilence and mourning and famine - and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God, who judges her, is strong. And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'"

"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes anymore; cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet -" etcetera.

"The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you, and men will no longer find them. The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city; she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet; for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!'"

And then it goes on talking about ship masters, passengers and sailors, etcetera."And then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer."

So, those are pretty accurate descriptions of the effects that psychopaths have on a civilization. And it's pretty interesting that it's in the terms of buying and selling and commerce -

Niall: Economics.

Laura: Economics; it's a whole economic thing. So, of course, when Putin issued his -

Pierre: Embargo.

Laura: Embargo on buying the goods of the US - and the thing is, the US doesn't really produce that much anymore because the US has outsourced nearly everything, and that's why it has so much unemployment. So, it's really kind of funny to me to think about them thinking that they can actually do, and it's going to make any difference. Because now nobody's going to buy anything that they've got, which is no big deal.

Joe: Well, it's kind of interesting because, the sanctions imposed on Russia - the Russians laughed at them because they said, you know, basically, "Well, we don't need anything really you have. We can survive on our own."
And the sanctions that then Russia imposed on the US, the US laughed at them because it was in terms of buying US products.

Laura: And the US doesn't sell any.

Joe: And the US doesn't have - it's totally different in the sense that the US doesn't; it doesn't bother them because they don't sell anything to anybody, because they don't have any natural resources. So, they both had the same reactions to each other's sanctions, but for very different reasons. And the US is in a much worse situation ultimately because Russia can subsist on its own; the US can't.

Laura: Yeah, and not only that, there was - the last few years I was reading some articles, 'cause I pay attention to these things, and the US was buying more food from other countries than it was exporting in the last few year; because there has been bad harvest, you know, they've got this disease that's killing off the pigs, and they've got various things going on.

Joe: Droughts, floods.

Laura: Droughts. This year they are not going to have any food, so who are they going to buy food from if Russia won't sell any to them, right?
And meanwhile, the people that are really hurting are these so-called kings of the Earth who have joined in with the US and her 'passionate un-chastity', etcetera. And, Russia's not going to be hurting because Russia has already made friends with, and deals with, South America.
And guess where the US has been getting a lot of its food and produce and so forth? It's been getting it from South America. Well, if it's all going to Russia - you know, I think that may reduce the amounts that's going to come to the US. The US is basically shot itself in the foot, again.

Joe: But they can't see it.

Laura: And Russia is close friends with China. China is one of the main - China, Taiwan, you know, Malaysia, whatever - it's one of the main places that the US has been getting a lot of their goods also.

Joe: Everything from them - like 20% of their imports come from China alone.

Laura: Right! So, now if all of that gets transferred over to Russia and the Chinese say, "Sorry, we don't have any to sell you."

Joe: It's building up to a point where the rest of the world essentially - like China, Russia obviously and South America - could just cut off -

Laura: Feeding the US.

Joe: Cut off the US, if they chose to do so.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: If the Chinese and South Americans saw which side their bread was buttered on type-of-thing, or where it was going, they could - in probably minutes -

Laura: Basically, cut off the US; and the US will - and so, you know, in a certain sense this chapter could be a metaphorical description of exactly what is already happening now. I mean, we don't have any big explosions and falling fire and so forth. That may come.

Joe: Well, it has been happening - drops here and there.

Pierre: There is some.

Laura: Yeah, there has been some of that.And now we've got, you know, this Ebola thing. But I don't think Ebola's going to be the big plague that's going to take out, you know, 80-90% of humanity. I've been predicting 80-90% of humanity is going to get taken out by a plague, but I don't think it is Ebola.

Joe: We reckon the Ebola thing is possibly more for the purpose of getting people vaccinated. They don't want to protect them from Ebola. They want to have an excuse to stick needles in everybody's arms.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: For some or other reason.

Laura: I mean, this is just more of this evil empire. I mean, the New World Order, the Beast of Revelation; the Whore of Babylon.
And it's not - I mean, okay, so who's behind it?I mean, is the USA or is there something other behind?Now, there is - a very good case could be made that it's international bankers. And that these international bankers not only control the US, but they also control the European countries. Those international bankers are primarily Jewish, as far as I understand. And also, most of the media is owned by Jewish individuals or Jewish companies.

And we also would like to take note of the fact that this MH17 plane, that took off from the Netherlands and that was shot down allegedly over Ukraine, took off from the same airport that the alleged underwear bomber boarded the plane without even having a passport or providing any identification, right? He didn't have a ticket. And this airport is run by an Israeli security company.

And we can make all of these connections back to Zionists and the Israelis and so on and so forth. But I don't think that that's the whole answer, because there are so many non-Zionist - or, I wouldn't say non-Zionists - but there are so many non-Israelis, non-Jews, involved in these elite power structures that there is some other defining element - which is, as we continually say; it's psychopathy.

Now, maybe psychopathy occurs at higher rates among Jews. We don't know that for sure. I mean, it does appear to be that way. I mean, when you see a whole country or the majority of the people in a country getting out their lawn chairs, and their potato chips and popcorn, to sit and watch, basically, a concentration camp of suffering people -

Joe: Being bombed.

Laura: Being bombed, then, I'm sorry, you know -

Joe: You made your choice, yeah.

Laura: And I'll mention something here. I am just going to bring this up.You know, quite a few years ago we were having a little session with Cassiopaeans, and we were discussing some potential things that were - you know, invitations my husband had received for some research visits. And we were basically instructed to stay away from Tel-Aviv, because something big was going to happen there.

Well, I suspect that there are some very large rocks flowing out - flying around out there in our Solar System airspace, or non-airspace - that have names on it, just like Israelis put names on their rockets, you know?Well, maybe there's a big rock out there with a name.

Joe: With love, from the Universe.

Laura: With love, from the Universe, to Tel-Aviv.

Pierre: And about the Zionist connection, there are two of the factors that might be worth mentioning: a) the ideology. The Old Testament is fundamentally a psychopathic - a vengeful -

Laura: Yahweh is a psychopath.

Pierre: Hateful, exclusive, elitist, distrustful God; totally psychopathic. That's the ideology.Now, that's the nurture; the ideological background into which some people are born and grow. And it does have an influence in your mind.Plus, if you look at the history of Zionism, or Judaism, you realize that only once there's been pietism and mass conversion. 7th century AD; mass conversion of Kazhars - eastern, between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea, where the Ukraine conflict is happening now, probably coincidence. And those Kazhars were notorious for their brutality, for their psychopathic tendencies.

So today, you have Zionists who are Kazhar descendants - Ashkenazis, who embrace the Zionist, the Talmud and the Old Testament creed. So, basically you have the marriage of this psychopathic -

Laura: Ideology.

Pierre: Nature - the genetic Kazhar substratum - and psychopathic nurture - the Talmudist Old Testament creed.

Joe: Yeah.

Pierre: Which is quite a detonative cocktail, when you think about it.

Joe: It's a horrible mixture, yeah. It' a -

Laura: And then you have the testimony of Hannah Arendt who was a Jew in a concentration camp. And she says that there was collaboration between the Jews and the Nazis, and that they were selecting. The people that were selected to be saved from the concentration camps and sent to Israel to become its new citizens were, by and large, criminals. And it was the decent ordinary people who were allowed to die or killed or whatever.

Joe: People need to understand something about Israel. They hide it a lot, and it should be said more often, which is that 80% of the citizens of Israel - 80% of Israeli Jews are not from the Middle East at all. They're from -

Laura: And their ancestors were not from the Middle East.

Joe: No, none of them are from the Middle East. They all came - 80% of the people of the Israeli Jews in Israel today are from -

Laura: Russia.

Joe: Russia and Eastern Europe. They are all not of Semitic origin. But, so the only thing that ties them to the -

Laura: It's religion!

Joe: I mean, who would want to go in there? The only thing that ties them is this ridiculous notion that this land was given to Jews. But these people, a lot of these people as well who came from Eastern Europe and Russia to Israel, adopted Judaism. So, they're not even -

Niall: En masse.

Joe: They're not even Jews going way back to the time when this supposed Bible God gave them -

Laura: Yeah. God.

Joe: So, they have no claim to it on both counts; from a religious point of view and from an ethic point of view.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: They have no claim to it at all, but nobody says that.

Laura: And then they sit there crying, saying: "Don't we have a right to a land of our own? God gave us this country. We have a right to it." And, I mean -

Joe: Just look at all of the -

Laura: "And we have a right to be protected from those evil Palestinians, you know, who want to kick us out!"

Joe: Look at all of the top kind of politicians, leaders of the Jewish state over the past 50 years - presidents, prime ministers, etcetera, even defense ministers, all of those kind of people - all of them, first of all, are from Eastern Europe.

Secondly, pretty much all of them changed their name from a clearly Russian or Eastern European name, like with the -fky or the -sky on the end, to Hebrew names. So, they Hebraized their first names, or in some way or other, translated their Eastern European names into Hebrew - and like Netanyahu, for example. It sounds a bit kind of Biblical; it's actually Nathan, I think. It is his first name, or his middle name or something, or the first name of his father, Nathan, translated into Hebrew - which is Netanyahu - and adopted as a surname.

Because it is Hebrew, and therefore it establishes the supposed link with him to, what, to the Bible? To the Old Testament, and therefore to the land of Israel.

But, he's Eastern European; he's an Eastern European person whose ancestors a few generations ago adopted Judaism. And he comes and claims ownership of a lump of land in the Middle East and kicks the people off? I mean, it's just so -

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: His real name is Milikowsky, Benjamin Milikowsky - and look at all the others.

Niall: There was something really interesting going on in Eastern Europe way back then.Pierre's mentioned the Kazhars. But around the same time, that's also when Russia came into being, the first version of it; Kiev and Rus. And it's interesting that the most rapacious people aside the Kazhars, so sometime afterwards - or Medieval Russia, let's say - that gave the most problems were people in what was called Galicia, which is today Western Ukraine.And if you thing about virulent anti-Russian attitude they have, I kind of wonder if it's some kind of archetypal thing that goes way back.

Pierre: Yeah.

Laura: There's definitely some archetypal things going on.But you know what, right now, as the representative of this hegemony, we have the United States - the great Whore of Babylon. It has its sphere of influence, no matter who's behind it or who's doing what.I mean, how dare they, how dare they do the things that they're doing?!

I mean, it's like, another one. Just the other day, they declared that they wouldn't accept Argentina's repayment of its debt. Argentina wanted to appeal in the UN court. The US says: "Oh, the UN court, you know, isn't allowed to handle this. We won't submit to that."I mean, double standards up and down, one side and the other, and it's just, I mean; I'm not even going to get wound up.

Joe: When you compare it to what Russia did a couple of months ago, like forgiving 90% of Cuba's debt that they had owed to Russia.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: I mean, a stark contrast to an attitude towards other nation.

Laura: Yeah.Well, we can go on with that. I think we can fairly safely say that the future is not very bright based on what's going on. And, of course, obviously in any situation like this, there are always people who survive - and those are the people who are aware and awake and alert and paying attention and resonating with a different archetype.

Joe: And keep watching the signs.

Laura: And keep watching the sings because we're going to shut down for the night; we've gone a little over.

Joe: Yes.

Pierre: The future might be bright, in the sky. Cometary trails?

Laura: Yeah. Bring on the comets!

Joe: Yeah, we'll see.Okay, thanks to our listeners and thanks to our chatters. We'll be back next week with an interview - with?

Niall: Peter Kuznick, co-author with Oliver Stone of 'Untold History'. Tune in.

Laura: Far out.

Joe: Until then, have a good one. Bye.