Jazz musician, author and philosopher Gilad Atzmon spoke withThe Duranabout Roger Waters verses the Israel lobby, the place of politics in music, freedom versus dogma and Palestinian freedom in the 21st century.
Recently, Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters has been in the news, not for his North America musical tour but for his politics. As an outspoken supporter of Palestine, he has come up against the Israel lobby in many western countries.
Recently, various pro-Israel activists have financed the making of a film against Waters called Wish You Weren't Here, a mockery of the Pink Floyd album and song Wish You Were Here.
Even among politically minded musicians, few talk about the Israel/Palestine issue. I recently spoke with acclaimed jazz musician, philosopher, social commentator and pro-Palestine thinker Gilad Atzmon about his reaction to the latest attempt to smear Roger Waters over his advocacy of Palestinian justice.
AG: As someone who started life as a musician, I have a special affection for music and I would personally never judge my emotive experience at listening to a piece of music based on the politics of the composers and/or performers. At the same time, I am deeply political and am consequently always attentive when musicians decide to get political.
It is nothing new. From Beethoven's 9th symphony, to Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture and Strauss's 4 Last Songs, musicians have always been immersed in world events. People look to the revolutionary attributes of jazz heroes like Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Roland Kirk and Miles Davis to the folk, pop and rock music of Bob Dylan, John Lennon and Pink Floyd as a source of meaning that ties the political into the emotional and dare I say the spiritual also.
What do you think the connection is and ought to be between music and politics?
GA: To start with, although historically musicians and artist have been highly involved in politics, I am not so sure that this is the case anymore. The culture industry has evolved into a subservient operation. First it reduced beauty into a commodity and then utilized it as a propaganda tool. Our (music) festivals are funded by banks and politically oriented cultural institutes.
There is no doubt, for instance, that Jazz, the voice of the oppressed, has lost touch with its original poignant revolutionary impetus. It has been mostly reduced into emotionless scholarly noise verging on academic masturbation.
While politicians operate within a giving symbolic order, artists question conventions and re-invent symbolism. At present, the domineering aspect of the industry reduces the artist into a propagator of accepted conventions utilizing acceptable symbolism. I rebel against all of it. I prefer to dig and to seek the truth, I don't claim to know the truth but I love excavating.
AG: When it comes to the issue of Palestinian freedom and dignity, three people who can justifiably be called music legends stand out as artists who have used both their music and their voices to speak out, there is yourself, Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) and Robert Wyatt (Soft Machine). Are these artists different than others who talk about political issues, people who tend to flirt with the establishment for example like Bono?
GA: First, thank you for considering me a 'legend.' Supporting Palestine is no doubt a noble cause. Moreover, since the music industry is largely an extended Jewish syndicate, opposition to the Jewish State is a self-inflicted death sentence. As you would expect, not many reasonable people choose to sentence themselves to death.
Robert Wyatt has been supporting Palestine because he is the most authentic mench around. Waters performed in Israel a few years ago, he witnessed the oppression, he was moved by it. He joined the solidarity movement. My case is a bit different. I was born in Israel. It took me many years to grasp that Israel was Palestine and I was living on someone else's land. When I understood this, I immigrated to London where I found that Diaspora Jews who operate politically as Jews (Zionist as well as 'anti') are far more obnoxious and even dangerous than Israel is. The Lobby (AIPAC, LFI, CFI, CRIFF) dominates USA, UK and French foreign affairs. It pushes us into wars. Unfortunately, a similar Jewish lobby dominates the Palestinian solidarity movement and has managed to reduce the Palestinian call for a 'Right of Return' into an internal Jewish debate about the 'Right to BDS' (Boycott, Divest & Sanction Israeli goods). I started to ask myself questions relating to Jewish power and the Jewish past. I realised that Palestinians are just the Goyim du jour. If we want to help Palestine, we have to understand that by now we are all Palestinians.
Bono, is an interesting case. I would love to believe that he is a genuine and empathetic human being. But too often his activity somehow coincides with neocon interests, colonial imperialism and mammonism in general. Whether Bono is informed enough or not is beyond me. I have never looked into his case in a scholarly manner.
AG: Have you ever personally feared that your musical career could be harmed because of your philosophical, sociological and political statements even though you're an ardent advocate of peace and human dignity for all?
GA: Assaults against my artistic activity occur daily. Promoters and presenters of my work are subject to a constant barrage of pressure and even threats. Very rarely they succeed in having a gig of mine cancelled.
However, this is crucial. In Europe there are broad hate speech prohibitions. Despite the endless attempts to silence me, not once have I been questioned by a law enforcement body anywhere around the world about anything I said or wrote.
AG: Imagine you are the child in a secular Jewish/Zionist home. You like listening to Pink Floyd's records as almost all young people have done since the 1960s. Your parents then tell you not to listen anymore because of Roger Waters' views on Palestine. What might you feel? Would listening to Roger's music become an act of youthful rebellion decades after The Dark Side of The Moon and The Wall were recorded?
GA: If Zionism was a promise to make Jews people like all other people, then stopping your children from listening to Pink Floyd guarantees that they won't be people like other people.
AG: In addition to speaking out against Israel's treatment of Palestinians, Roger Waters encourages all musicians to boycott Israel. What are your views on this and if you were invited to Israel to perform your music would you go? If you went would you feel that you would be at risk of violence due to your philosophy and statements?
GA: Yesterday in Prague I met two Israeli musicians who used to work with me in the 1980s. We ended up talking about Roger Waters. They weren't politically oriented people however, they suggested that Waters is on shaky moral ground because Waters mounts pressure on artists to join BDS and boycott Israel. Let me shock you, I am also troubled by that. The fact that Palestinian solidarity activists can't differentiate between a tomato and a poet or between an avocado and an historian troubles me. I am an avid advocate of freedom of speech and expression. I want beauty and ideas to travel freely.
Every discourse is a set of boundaries. I was invited last year to participate in the 30th Red Sea Festival. My personal boundary is that I will not visit the Jewish State or any other state that is set to serve the interest of one race. I vowed not to visit Israel unless it is a state of its citizens and by that I mean that it is Palestine from River to the Sea.
AG: Roger Waters often pens open letters to fellow artists. Here is your opportunity to do the same. What would you write to Roger?
GA: Dear Roger:
As a hero of humanity and freedom who made the prospect of a bright future into a song, I urge you to distinguish between Athens and Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the city of revelation and commandments, it provides us with a set of laws that define right and wrong. Athens, on the other hand, is the symbol of philosophy, beauty, science and reason. Activists belong to Jerusalem, philosophers are from Athens. You cannot fight Jerusalem while being a Jerusalemite. Athens is where you belong. Let's enable people to think for themselves and learn to make ethical judgements. Let us choose Athens rather than setting a different tyranny of correctness.
AG: Roger Waters is now 73. His musical statement has been very much ingrained on the world and that won't be taken away. If there was a young man of 17 with the musical talents of for example yourself or Roger and the political views of either yourself or Roger, would you advise them to hold their tongue for the sake of their career assuming you were asked with sincerity and respect?
GA: I guess that I pay a price for being outspoken, but I am very happy. I am a free agent. As I said above, I am not an activist, I don't advise people what to do or what to say, I endeavor to help people form their own thoughts as they move along. The same rule applies to me, my thoughts are shaped and reshaped constantly. For me this is what Being in Time is all about.
AG: Gilad, you recently played on Pink Floyd's 'final' record, The Endless River featuring the line-up of David Gilmour, Nick Mason with archived recordings from the late Richard Wright. If you are able to do so, can you disclose if your politics were discussed during the recording sessions given that the elephant in the room would have been the fact that your politics are most similar to the ex-Pink Floyd member Roger Waters who was not on that particular album?
GA: We didn't touch upon politics, we were there for music. What fascinated me was that I initially experimented with my tenor sax. It wasn't easy, I am not the ideal Pink Floyd saxophonist. Then I went into the control room and told David Gilmour and Phil Manzanera that in my mind, I heard something completely different—a Turkish clarinet. I played one take, there was silence. David said that it was beautiful but totally foreign to Pink Floyd's sound. I agreed, he was correct. But I told him that this was what I heard. I didn't think that my clarinet would make it into the Album, but it did. The explanation is simple: through art, beauty reveals itself as an authenticity.
AG: Do you think condemnation of artists like yourself, Roger Waters, Robert Wyatt and others from the Israel lobby has any negative effect on how your music is perceived and enjoyed? On the contrary does it have a positive effect or is it immaterial to most music lovers?
GA: If anything, the attacks provide humanity with a glimpse into the vindictiveness that is unfortunately embedded in Jewish Identity politics, both Zionist and anti. My response; the more they attack, the faster and louder I play. Still, there is something I fail to understand. If the lobby is upset by my criticism of Jewish Identity politics, all they have to do is make sure that the saxophone is constantly shoved into my mouth. They should insure that I play 24/7, they should book my gigs rather than try to cancel them.
Modern musicians aren't even capable of making decent baby-I-love-you music these days, why would anyone not laugh their tits off at most of their vanity-driven attempts to pass themselves off as block-capitals-men-of-conviction?
To be negatively defined is to assert self righteousness over the hated - under the illusion that it is aligned with love.
Invite, call for, give witness to and exemplify a choice and an awareness there IS choice - but don't
be baited into judging 'over' and against others whose freedom is one with your own. For if you deny it another you must and shall lose (awareness of) your own. I seek to illuminate the nature of choices - not to make your mind for you or judge you unworthy if you make choices that I don't share - for you are your own uncovering to yourself and if I am part of yours or you of mine - then that is in the ways of our freedom to discover. Perhaps another may help me see what I recognize I am NOT and so release to rest and act more clearly in that I am. But what I accept for my self or reality is innate to the power of awareness in focus of desire and experience. This is really 'One, Shared and Known' but accepting conflicting purpose seems to be the power to deny, defy and replace or usurp Innate Meaning with conflicted, assertive and shifting 'meanings' arising as the self-justification' of the power to deny, defy and replace or usurp Life. In this 'world' Everything is backwards. But its release is the uncovering of Meaning intimately felt, directly known and truly lived.
That I find some behaviours hateful is always also something to do with MY learning and conditioning - and this needs to open a curiosity or in-sight into what lies beneath - for behaviour automatically follows the perceptions rising from the core self-beliefs and definitions that are currently active and accepted true. Blaming the behaviour as the scapegoating of our OWN hates onto others is the way of refusing to look within. Such is a personality set in denial of its own foundation - or to put it another way; set in a false foundation OF denial. How can they know what they do - regardless what they do?
Acting FROM unconscious acceptance of what seems self-evident is in fact a conditioned reflex operating under the illusion of freedom and self-protection or 'love' under conditions of threat or challenge.
So if you are paying attention you may see that the idea of the 'chosen one/s' is an a tempt to assume priority of self OVER our existence - over our thoughts,relations and our world, and focus exclusively in manipulative adjustments within a (fig-leaf) consciousness by which to seem to have and be such a power... temporarily and at a cost.
The 'will to power' is the alignment within the currently accepted definition OF power - as framed in the ability to influence outcomes by coercion, deceit or both - INSTEAD of changing our mind about our mind. Until a sense of lack arises and is accepted as true - power Is perfectly shared because in unified purpose is nothing separate or counter to its extension in All to All. But this makes no sense (an finds no welcome) within the 'consciousness' arising FROM within a sense of lack, loss, abandonment, rejection, shame, denial, betrayal, attack, rage and impotence.
To such a focus in persona survival under the name of self-protective love, the conditioned robotic golem of the 'othered' is a tool, an asset, a useful idiot - a source of information or ammunition, but never an equal, and without the focus in self-specialness set against the invalidated 'other' the 'shared identity' in a seeming self-specialness or supremacy disintegrates to what it really is. Fear or threat derived 'unity' can NEVER become power, love, or true fulfilment and actually operates against the grain of a true alignment - as a fear of loss presenting in masks of fantasy gratification, self-inflation or the use of victimhood as the reinforcer of identity in vengeance to fuel eventual victory via 'sacrifice'.
Hence the hatred (and un-owned fear) of the 'other' is needed to seem to 'have' the masking power over an otherwise naked or revealed lack and exposure in deceit and in hate.
"And who told you you were naked?" Is the stirring of true curiosity from which to challenge not the naked emperor - but the predicates to a self-validating illusion.
"All are Called, but few care to listen" because the attention is fixated in the idea of a personal sense of power - even if collectively organized. The predicate of such 'power' is a mind drawn from denial - that thinks and sees only as its separation identity dictates - as guilted or hidden fears dictate must remain hidden. The mind thus becomes a narrative control in place of the extension of the willingness to behold - and recognize and feel and know and share in being. There is a choice here that was made in fear but can be unmade in a true, free and willing desire. And in a sense is noticeably released in embracing a wholeness of being in the call to joy that is for all - but neglected by the call to war that self-specialness implicitly invoked relative to Who you truly and uniquely are.
"Be careful what you wish for" might better be said as "be conscious of what you are the willing of". The mind of a fake 'will' distorts and filters, suppresses and denies the true movement of our being... to our conscious appreciation. Take off thy 'head-set' and be truly moved!
Roger Waters - Such dreary, life-sucking, 'down there' music, and so counter to the world-creating 'up here' spirit of the Syd Barretts of this world...[Link]
Pink Floyd star defends anti-Trump tour....[Link]