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In this second in our series of shows on the topic of science and its benefits and negative consequences for mankind, we took a look at the use and abuse of psychiatry and psychology.

From the psychotherapist's chair to anti-depressant drugs and diverse therapeutic modalities, psychiatry and psychology have come up with as many solutions for mental health issues as there are theories of what makes people tick.

While many individuals have benefited from some form of intervention or another, the application of psychological knowledge for propaganda purposes, mind control experiments and pure corporate greed has apparently left most people's psychological health more fragile than ever.

This week, we attempted to sort the good from the bad and the ugly by 'psychoanalyzing' some of the questionable practices and theories of the mind, and untangling the confusion produced by psychological terminology that frequently overlaps the same basic underlying problems people encounter in our stressful modern world.

Running Time: 02:16:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript:

Introduction begins:

Laura: Here we go.

You're listening to SOTT Talk Radio: The World for People Who Think. Music continues.

Laura: We are doomed to extinction, because of agriculture. We have raped and pillaged this planet. There is a disinformation program literally for everyone no matter, who you are and what your and what your interests are, what your beliefs are, which way you are focusing, there is a website set up just for you - to take you in and to vector your thinking and your attention into the way that they want you to think. Categories of things happening in the sky and in the cosmos, if you read the scientific reports that come through and put the pieces together, you can see something big is happening!

Introduction ends.

Joe: Yes, indeed, something big is happening! It's SOTT Talk Radio Show # 11. This week we are...yes? This week we are continuing with our look at science, specifically this week, its Psychiatry and Psychology, and... I think it's safe to say on that topic that the research into the human mind and the knowledge it has produced, and the way that that knowledge has been used, has contributed most significantly to the dire, dumb-down, and suppressed nature of human beings and the human society today. Hot potato, discuss, and throwing that I open the panel here. The panel here tonight is: myself Joe Quinn, Laura Knight-Jadzyck, Niall Bradley, Jason Martin and Pierre Lescaudron. So, welcome to everybody, including myself.

Niall: Thank you, Joe.

Joe: Thank you, Niall.

Laura: Hello, everybody.

Pierre: Helloo.

Joe: So, yes, as I said, psychiatry and psychology. Last week was general medicine, doctors, pills, hope you all listened to that one and...

Jason: I really didn't think that it would be possible for me to be more disgusted from the researches that we did during this week for the topic of psychology. I really didn't expect it to be quite as bad, as it turned out to be. I mean, of course, you hear all kinds of horror stories about psychiatrists and stuff, but you don't really realize how rampant the disease of modern science is, except when you look at the psychology and psychiatry field. I mean, some of these guys are worse than Oppenheimer, in a certain sense of the word. I mean, you know, Sigmund Freud has led to the suffering of more people than Oppenheimer ever did.

Pierre: Hmm, yeah. Many similarities to what we realized and explained last week about hospitals and general medicine, except that for psychiatry, the patients are vulnerable. As a mental institute patient you can be stripped out of your free will, you probably just met you are considered insane so not able to make a proper decision. So, basically, you become the slave of authorities. For example, a psychiatrist can commit you to a mental institution as a law in the US, and for 3 days you're committed there, they will give you drugs.... awful ethics, electroshocks, and only after 3 days of treatment, they present you to a judge, who will say that you're sane or insane. But after those 3 days of treatment, I mean, that kind of treatment is more literally, destruction of the mind. After the 3 days you ARE insane, even if before the 3 days you were not insane, and then you are committed for a longer time and then you get more drugs, and more shock therapy and distress therapy, and etcetera. And, literally, your mind gets destroyed and you get transformed into an obedient robot.

Jason: I mean, it's like the shades of the inquisition, you know. Of course you will admit to any sin after you've been put on the rack.

Joe: Absolutely yeah but before we jump right in there to the horrors of modern day psychiatry, maybe we should have a look at history and that's why Laura is here actually because she is a historian and we are going into the history of psychiatry and psychology, of modern psychiatry and psychology...and, I think earlier on we were discussing this a little bit and Laura said to me... or said in my dream that it had something to do with the dawn of the industrial revolution and the kind of deification, essentially, of science and the scientific method.

Laura: It actually goes back a little bit further than that ...the funny thing is that after the collapse of the Bronze Age, a civilization of the Mediterranean, and this is quite a bit further back than the Industrial revolution...

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: ... as you can guess.

Jason: Just a tiny amount.

Laura: Yeah. We're talking about the Bronze-Age collapse about 1200 B.C. and then the reemergence of civilization starting, you know, 900, 800, 700 B.C. and forward. We had the Assyrians that arose as the first empire following the collapse of that civilization, then the Persians, and then the Greeks and, you know, each one defeated the other and took over, and toppled finally the Romans, and each one defeated one before them, took on some of the elements of that particular civilization, but, in any event, there is a great little book called The Ancient City by...

Pierre: Fustel de Coulanges (Pierre pronounces it in French)...

Laura: Yeah, thanks for pronouncing that for me, Pierre ( Laura's laughing). His name was actually Numa, which was one of the names of the ancient Roman kings.

Jason: Emmenez du fromage (In French)

(Laura is laughing heartily)

Long pause

Niall or Joe: Thank you.

Long pause again.

Jason: Yeah, wow! Everything was just revealed... the secrets of the Universe! I'm flabbergasted. Well that ends the show!

Joe: Hmm.

Jason or someone else is laughing.

Laura: Yeah. We had a little hiccup there. Apparently, our phone line dropped us. That's France for ya. But in any event, as I was saying and I hope that you got the last part where I was talking about the Bronze-Age civilization collapse, followed by the Assyrian Empire, the Persian Empire, then the Greeks and the Romans, and then, of course, the Romans supposedly went on for a very long time, and then that civilization collapsed, and our own is what has emerged from that. But in any event, back during the time of the ...emergence of the Greek civilization, and you can't really properly call it an Empire, because it wasn't extensive in the way the other empires were, but it still manifested a certain hegemony over the, you know, areas along the coast of the Mediterranean and the people really looked up to the Greeks and admired them and emulated them. If you can imagine... now, imagine the effects of the destruction of civilization, the Bronze Age civilization. Imagine that it happened via cometary bombardment, similar to the recent Russian event, but on much wider scale. I believe that there is one archeologist to propose to this. He was actually French and he wrote an extensive book on the topic. Do you remember his name Pierre?

Pierre: I don't remember his name, but I remember that his story was that it was the explosion of a mega-volcano that triggered the end of the civilization...

Laura: Well that's not the one I'm thinking about. The one I'm thinking about was somewhere in the early 20th late 19th century and he wrote... he wrote that the levels of earthquakes that must have occurred during the time that the Bronze Age collapsed was so extensive that it was just mind boggling, which was one of the reasons, his theory was completely rejected... you know, if you take into account the idea of cometary bombardment then everything begins to make sense. In any event, what happened was that... there were in those difficult times and the emergence of, what I believe, were pathological individuals who took advantage of what could be called an ancient practice of "shock doctrine". You have a situation where everybody is in shock, and it enables those who do not feel shocked, who do not succumb to the terror and panic of a terrifying situation, who then are enabled to rise up and take control and they see it and take advantage of it. So they institute rules and regulations and make themselves high priests and kings and the.... create religions, their political systems for their own benefit, of course, and all the people who are in shock, the people who are normal, emotional human beings fall into line because they were so terrified that the Gods were going to destroy them further or wreck destruction upon them again. So, Fustel de Coulanges...How did I do Pierre? Not bad, ha?

Pierre: That was very good.

Laura: Ok. So, Fustel, let's just call him Fustel, he wrote a great book called The Ancient City, where he...explains how... how this manifested: what kind of rules and regulations were put into effect for the benefit of controllers, and how they.. how those rules and regulations are... and customs, and beliefs are at the very core of our modern civilization... and, if you read this book, you will see, you know, how bizarre it is that we still live under a system that was put into motion something like 3600 years ago... so... but, in any event, the Greeks came along a few hundred years afterwards, and there were no more comets and there were no more strange things going on in the sky. So they had the idea that they needed to find another way to control people because people were getting a little bit restless and they were acting rebellious. So they came up with the idea of making certain laws and institutions and having colonies and philosophy and instituting the idea that what we'll do is we'll put the wisest men in charge. And these wise men they will be philosophers, so a lot of the early philosophers, so called philosophers, were really legislators... and you'll read this repeatedly when you read about these philosophers that they were legislators and they weren't legislators necessarily because they were such great philosophers, but they were considered to be educated men of their time, and they were given the job by the rulers of the time of taking over colonies and legislating them, finding ways know, to keep the people under control, make them happy and...and keep everything going smoothly. But the very idea that philosophy could exist, that one could think about questions of the order of the Universe, man's place within it, how to respond to this Universe, you know, what to do, how to behave, to prevent dire things from happening, opened the door to actual real thinking philosophy, and it's kind of the same way that, you know... as I was saying earlier today, somebody came up with the idea for the Internet, with the idea of control, using it for military purposes and controlling people around the world or communicating for military purposes, but it ended up being a great system for people, ordinary people all over the planet to communicate with one another and share knowledge and information, and I concluded at the time that the line of Faust , which is possibly paraphrased, but Mephistopheles, he who continually intends evil but ends up doing good, know, an evil mind can plot and plan to do something dire and dreadful, but a creative souled individual, you know, a person who has a positive orientation can take that and make something good out of it. You know the old idea of making lemonade out of lemons. But in any event, historically speaking, this idea of philosophy led to speculations about what went on in the human mind, what was the human makeup, what made people tick, and among the best of the ideas that came out during that time, which, believe it or not, are only now being rediscovered in modern cognitive science, were the ideas of the Stoic philosophers. There was some good ideas also among the Pythagoreans...the philosophers of the Pythagorean school and then, of course, Plato came along and plagiarized the Pythagorean material and possibly some Stoic material, and his twists and turns on philosophy and on the nature of human beings, psychology were really rather similar to that of Freud and he... his points of view were the ones that were adopted and held sway, but we will get into that a little further on. But in any event, Rome collapsed and things were really... there wasn't much going on in Europe and around the Mediterranean for several hundred years... and the great French historian Marc Bloch and his book about the French agricultural land the know, I can't recall the name of it right off hand, but It was a study of the French agriculture. He points out that as late as the 15th, 16th centuries, there were still lords...or nobility, or whatever, in France, you know, calling for settlers to come and settle, because the land had been laid waste for so long that there were no people to populate it, there were no people to perform the agriculture...there was.. things were pretty bad and, of course, part of that could've been because of the mass death that occurred in the 14th - 15th centuries from the Black Death, but still, it gives an impression that Europe was not terribly densely populated at that time...

Pierre: And Rome was still being excavated in the 17th century,...

Laura: Yeah.

Pierre: ... excavated because it was covered with eight meters of silt.

Laura: Eight meters! Just get that! Rome was covered with 8 meters of silt! And that didn't happened in a day, unless it was from a cometary explosion in the Mediterranean....and it certainly wasn't done... I mean, eight meters of silt over the entire city of Rome from the river? I mean, come on get real. Especially when you consider that the sites in Greece, Olympia, Diocletian's Palace and the coast of Croatia were also covered by many meters of silt. So there was something really dire that happened about the 6th and 7th centuries.

Jason: So, basically, like there's been a very long expedition of the Tychic theory: it should happen in Greece, which is pretty much the way it always goes. It's been going on for 2000 years, 3000 years or more. It keeps happening ... keeps repeating... It's like a cyclical thing where a lot of bad stuff happens. People get really, really scared and then psychopaths move in and they institute more or less the same system that was there before, take over and screw everybody over.

Laura: Well, yeah... but what I'm trying to get to ... I mean, that's pretty sick thing... but what I'm trying to get to is the fact that, after Rome collapsed and after these particular ideas, say the Stoics' and other philosophers' had, kind of, you know, made their way around the world. When things reemerged, there was Plato and there was the Bible, there was the Catholic Church, and it was kind of almost an ad hoc creation to some extent by the Franks, who rose to the top at the end of this long period of quiescence in Europe....and the Church held sway for a while. For a long time psychology was just what the Bible allowed which was kind of amalgamation of Hebrew and Platonic philosophies and psychological ideas. It was very narrow, restricted view of the human beings. When the Reformation occurred, you know, people turned against the Catholic Church and the Reformation occurred, that then, led into the idea of truth and searching for truth and, of course, when people who were really conscientious had the idea that they wanted the truth they, of course, turned that on their religion. I mean, they could see that their religion wasn't very truthful, and that there were the scientific revolution was born. And at that point in time, they began to re-read some of these ancient texts, you know, things by Plato, the scraps that were left from the Stoics... you know, different kinds of philosophy and different kinds of psychologies that were integrated into those philosophies and, thus, was born the scientific revolution. The scientific revolution then led to mechanization technology, and then the human being was seen as a mechanical object, a... a machine, and then that went on for a little while, and then, along came Freud....

Joe: Well. So, what you're basically saying is that, you know, around the time of the role of the Greeks and the Roman empire, you had an understanding of psychiatry and psychology, of the human psyche and ideas that are similar to what are only have been discovered today, as you just said... and then, you had the Fall of the Roman empire, the Dark Ages, the resurgence of religion, which basically put paid to any in depth investigation into human psychology, understanding of the human mind. It was all just religion. And it was only until the industrial revolution or around that time, that they started... that science came back and know, started looking into the nature of the human psyche and psychology and stuff. What's interesting, actually, is that around that time the... around the 1800s, they had the spiritualism...

Laura: Yeah spiritualism.

Joe: People started to investigate spiritual ideas.

Laura: Yeah, and the whole thing... I think that you could say that psychology as a ...They had the idea when the spiritualist movement began to emerge...

Pierre: Was it public?

Laura: Yeah, that there could be a scientific investigation of spirit, of soul, you know, something beyond the material life... and there were Conan Doyle, William Crookes...

Laura: Yeah. Daniel Dunglas Home who was not a scientist, but he was a really a fantastic psychic and there was...

Niall: William James?

Laura: William James came along a little bit later, and there were just many great minds. Some of the greatest scientific minds of the time that were turning their attention into exploring the human psyche via the spiritualistic approach, and this had to be...this had to be done away with. I don't know, if it was a conscious thing or not, but...

Joe: It was a reaction to...

Laura: It was a reaction, I'm sure. Because you know, for example, one of the most vociferous opponents of a spiritualists' approach was... William Faraday?

Joe: Hmm-Hmm.

Laura: ...and he... and the reason was was because he was a devout fundamentalist, he was a protestant fundamentalist...

Joe: ...but also a scientist.

Laura: He was also a scientist. Yeah...So, it was kind of weird, because it was...he offered to investigate Daniel Dunglas Home, but only if Home would sign a document that even if he found his abilities to be true, that Home would cease and desist any of his spiritualistic practices.

Joe: ...disavow any...

Laura: ...yeah, and disavow them.

Joe: ...reality to it.

Laura: Yeah... and which was basically, you know, kind of putting him in a bind, of course, Home refused. So, there was a reaction against the spiritualist thing and the idea that you can investigate the human mind materialistically scientifically, not allowing anything that, you know, spilled over into uncertain domains.

Joe: And just to make a point here, I mean, this topic of psychiatry and psychology, and the investigation into the human mind and human nature and, obviously, it very easily, kind of, crosses over into the spirituality and religion etc.

Jason: Directly because think about it, where's the dimensions of the mind? How big is it? How heavy is it?

Joe: Oh, yeah.

Jason: Can you measure it?

Joe: It's automatically esoteric almost, if you know what I mean, but it hasn't been framed in that way in modern times, but just give another timeframe of what were are talking about here...and in terms of the history of the beginning of psychiatry and psychology. There was a guy called Professor Wilhelm Wundt, who was born in 1832 and died in 1920, he was a German physician, psychologist, physiologist, philosopher, professor, etcetera. He is known today as one of the founding fathers of the modern psychology. As a matter of fact, Wundt, was noted, I'm sorry, Wundt, who noted psychology as a science apart from biology and philosophy, was the first person to ever call himself a Psychologist. He is widely regarded as the "father of experimental psychology." In 1879, he founded the first formal laboratory for psychological research at the University of Leipzig. And this marked psychology as an independent field of study. And one of his main, here is a summation essentially of his basis, his approach to the whole topic was that... "He declared man's thoughts, personality and behavior nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain. Man, being an animal without a soul, was to be trained not to be a thinker." And, interestingly, Pavlov, Ivan Pavlov, studied in Wundt's lab in the late 1800s, in behavior modification not just on animals, that he's famous for, but also on human beings. So, that gives you an idea of the beginnings of psychology and psychiatry. This was the first psychologist, the first official psychologist, and that was his approach. It was all mechanistic, and it was trying to show that human beings were nothing more than animals, etcetera.

Pierre: And, I think, this 19th century is a crucial point in history. It was a time where religion started to lose its grip on human psyche. And we see at the same time the emergence of science....I mean, science, the specific kind of science that would develop this mechanistic, reductionist, Neo-Darwinian vision of the world and of human beings. Humans as a machine and, therefore, would exclude anything related to what you could call spirit, conscious or soul in human beings. It's interesting to see the synchronicity between the emergence of, as you mentioned Pavlov or the founder of psychology or you have Darwin as well, you have Freud...

Joe: All around the same time yeah.

Pierre: these fundamental scientific fields you have a founding father that, interestingly, developed his ideas on the very same reductionist, materialistic foundations.

Jason: People were ready for it. I mean, people just lived so long under the thumb screws of the Catholic Church, physically and metaphysically speaking. So, they were ready for it, and the science came along and they said, "Hey, religion has an answer to the questions you have been asking, those deep philosophical questions, which is why we had the religion in the first place, and they promised us that they would give us answers."

Joe: They explain everything.

Jason: Yeah. Basically because, you know, people want to know "why am I here?" you know, "what's the purpose of man?", "what happens after I die?" and I...

Joe: ...but they ditched spirituality and focused only on science.

Jason: Well, for a reason right, because the Catholic Church gave them ridiculous answers and as natural philosophy started to evolve at that time, with the printing press, people were talking and communicating with each other. They started to observe the natural world and said: "Wait a minute! What the Catholic Church is saying is not... they're not right about the Solar system. They are not right about this, they are not right about that. What if they're wrong about the afterlife?... so people, of course, got a little afraid...

Joe: Hmm...Hmm.

Jason: ...and then, science came along and said, "Hey, we'll answer these questions." Here we are, you know, a couple of hundred years later, they still haven't answered the questions, in fact, what they've basically said is that, "oh by the way, those questions are ridiculous to begin with"...

Joe: Hmm... Hmm...

Jason: ...which is why you see this proliferation of new religions and new custom spirituality, because people are like, "Hey, wait a minute. You promised us some answers, and you can't say that, not only is there no answer, but that we're stupid for asking the question in the first place? Because that's just not gonna fly!" That's science in a nutshell.

Pierre: Another reason for why human beings were right to swallow such a paradigm, reductionist paradigm is because during the 19th century in Europe there have been a tremendous series of technological breakdowns, breakthroughs: steam machine, train, the first plane, the very first the end of 19th century, cars, electricity, energy,..


Pierre: ... power, photography, and It was so magical, so groundbreaking that human beings were likely to throw the baby with the bath water and give everything exclusively mechanistic explanation.

Joe: Yeah. Science has a lot of...

Pierre: It was so wonderful...

Joe:... promise in that sense that it has produced a lot of new things and...

Jason: But that's the key to the Ponzi scheme or any other kind of scam. The first couple of times you take the persons money, you give it back, you give them more money, so, they think that, " wow! I'm gonna make more," and then they invest more and more and more. That's how scamming works. It's how Ponzi scheme works. People, who started at the beginning, they get paid, even if a little bit...

Joe: But the problem here is that... It's seems to be that the problem is that the type of people who came along.

Laura: ...providing these answers...

Joe:... providing these answers, particularly in the field of psychiatry and psychology this... obviously, this guy, Wundt or the first guy, describing, who decided man was an animal that was sold to be trained, and that led to Pavlov, you know, behavioral attempts to...

Laura: ...and you could say that they emerge from Darwin, but the odd thing is, that the cofounder of the Darwinian explanation of species selection... abnegated those views. He ...went completely the other way.

Joe: Hmm.

Pierre: And even Darwin himself had alleged the possibility of epigenetics. It's only the Neo-Darwinian that went for more radical vision, more radical theory excluding any kind of epigenetic meaning, influence of your behavior, of your environmental genetic expression of own genes. It went down the drain.

Niall: I think that there is another major factor we can throw into the mix. At this time, 19th century, there was widespread social upheaval...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: a result of technological innovation and mass industrialization. People moving into the cities, cities becoming very, very overpopulated; widespread unrest and the need from this pressure from below creating a need from above of how to manage it.

Laura: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Joe: Yes, so... This was in the late 19th century, and moving into the 20th century you had Freud, Edward Bernays coming up with this foundational idea that...and this was based on their observation and experience, supposedly, with World War, the first World War and in previous wars at the end of 19th century, that people essentially were dominated or driven by the potentially violent, unconscious desires and needs like the violent mob, that people... this was a real danger. Freud himself was a bit apparently disappointed, dismayed at this aspect that he saw of human nature... but there were other people in positions of power who latched on to this ideal of human being having these unconscious drives that needed to be controlled as a way to develop policy from a government point of view.

Jason: One thing that I'd like to say on this. It seems, a lot of that had to do with kind of like what, I think I can call a Nazi cover-up, which was this idea that these people felt really, really powerfully motivated to cover up the idea that the problem in Nazi Germany would have you know would have been even in World War I...

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: ...what motivated the masses, was not that the people of Germany were intrinsically evil, it was, you know, the psychopathic leaders who were in charge, and that this was a serious issue. And, it seems like, everything in psychoanalysis and even, you know, psychology for the next, you know, 50 or 60 years was centered around the idea of concealing the fact that people were grotesquely manipulated...

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: ... into doing those things, and it wasn't that they were intrinsically evil, and so...


Joe: Absolutely. But the whole theory behind the understanding behind psychology and the study of the human mind and these unconscious violent desires and drives that human beings, that was used by governments very quickly after it become a popular idea, it was used to manipulate people. To get them to do what the government wanted. So ...

Pierre: Just one comment about what Niall said about this period of social upheaval and controlling population. To summarize, there is a quick quote from Fulton. Fulton in the 1930s, he made experiments with chimpanzees testing lobotomy, and this what he's written: "Following the surgical removal of their frontal lobes, the behavior of both primates changed markedly, and Becky (Becky is the female chimpanzee, who was aggressive, rebellious), and Becky was pacified to such a degree that Jacobsen apparently stated it was as if she had joined a "happiness cult." "

Jason: Argh...

Pierre: And, in the rest of the show, we further will go back to this notion of rebellion, depression, breaking people's minds, making subservient individuals.

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: Well this guy Joe mentioned, Edward Bernays is a very interesting character around this time. If you haven't seen it, you've got to watch a documentary by Adam Curtis, called The Century of the Self. It's a four-part series. I think you can get it, watch it online. He... it's mainly about Freud, but in the opening episode or two, he concentrates on his nephew, Edward Bernays, and this guy was instrumental in making Freud's theories and the application of the other psychological theory widespread, because it was then used to control people. And some of the examples are very, very enlightening. At one point in fact, Bernays was like...he was like a PR adviser, placed with several US presidents.

Joe: He invented public relations.

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: in 1920s.

Niall: Yes, that's right. As Bernays says himself when he's interviewed in this documentary, "We were calling it propaganda at the time, but then the Germans came along later, suddenly that turned, so I went home and I came up with a new term, and I called it public relations."

Joe: Hmm. He was also instrumental in getting Freud's work published and disseminated in the US.

Niall: That's right...and Freud was actually bombing. His savings were wiped out during the hyperinflation in Austria and Germany. Freud was a broken man. He wrote to his nephew in New York Edward Bernays asking for help, and Bernays effectively became his publicist...and his books, his ideas then spread in the US. And this is how psychoanalysis, and the whole basis of Freudian theory, became so dominant. It was with the help of Edward Bernays.

Joe: Yeah and it had produced, you know, very quickly was taken up by other psychiatrists and politicians, and even journalists, and different high profile people in American society. One of them was Walter Lippmann and he decided that, because of this idea of, that had become popular with Bernays and Freud, the idea basically that there were these submerged dangerous forces lurking just beneath the surface of modern society, forces that could erupt easily among the population to produce frenzied mobs and even take down governments because that became popular and got the attention of the leaders, and this guy, Walter Lippmann, he promoted the idea that essentially this meant democracy wasn't really viable in its literal popular understanding of it and had to be re-thought. He said that basically a new elite was needed to manage what he called a "bewildered herd" - that's you, and should be done through psychological techniques, with understanding these psychological processes within human beings that would control the unconscious feelings of the masses.

Niall: Yeah. Well Freud was rejected by academics back in Austria but in the US when they heard these ideas it was like music to their ears...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: ...because now they have a framework for continuing the status quo, not changing it. They don't intend to actually liberate it. They don't intend to actually institutionalize a real democracy. They can take the terminology and create the impression of democracy. Edward Bernays was 26 when he was an advisor to Woodrow Wilson...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: ... and he was actually involved in getting the US into the war, into the Great War, the First World War...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: ...because, of course, the US up to that point decided no, we're not going, you know,...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: ...were not going to get involved in the overseas affairs. Bernays was brought in to turn things around with the help of a PR campaign.

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: America is in the War. At the end of the war, Bernays was personally at the Versailles Peace Conference, and he organizes things in such a way that by the time that Wilson arrives in France he's greeted by millions of people on the streets of Paris...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: a liberator. "Vive Wilson, Vive democracy for small countries." In fact, the term "making the world safe for democracy"...Edward Bernays came up with that phrase.

Joe: Came up with that yup.

Niall: That was his phrase among many other things.

Joe: That's 80 years ago...

Laura: Let me just say something really quick here. We've got a little quote from Freud himself that, "On board ship to America, he did not feel that he was bringing that country a new panacea. With his typically dry wit, he told his traveling companions, "We're bringing them the PLAGUE" (Laura's emphasis)", and that's from Manony, 1971, p. 168.

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: ..."basically, Freud's unscientific speculations are psychological operations in the service of waging war on normal human beings."

Joe: Hmm.

Joe: Yeah, the impression I get is that Freud came up with this idea and it was based on like we were talking earlier and we figured that Freud made the kind of foundational mistake in terms of his basic theory of psychoanalysis and what makes the human beings tick and that he was essentially projecting his own issues onto the population at large and not taking into consideration that there are differences, you know?

Jason: (mockingly): You think?

Joe: Just a little, I mean give us an explanation there Jason ...kind of...

Jason: You know...

Joe: ... wacky stuff.

Jason: I mean, this kind of stuff was really kind of crazy. I mean, most of his theories kind of centered around this infantile sexuality, this sort of concept that children are basically insatiable sluts that run around fondling themselves in every possible way and that the problems that develop in adulthood are from their parents sort of like chastising or stopping them from wanking off all over the place and either they get smacked by the mom saying "don't do that" and then suddenly they get a neurosis 20 years later. I mean it's insane. I mean, a lot of his theories are kind of focused on things like castration complex and I mean like, if I was circumcised on the 7th day, I would probably be afraid of that people will come and cut my wiener too!

Joe: Hmm.

Pierre: 8 day or 8th day...

Jason: 8th day whatever it is like I know... (Jason laughing)

Pierre: And actually, there is one parallel between Freud and Plato: both are more or less subtly proponents or defenders of pedophilia...

Laura: Yeah.

Jason: Oh, Yeah.

Pierre: ...because that was clearly about it, clearly favorable to such practices, and Freud, by asserting that if other children that are sexually attracted to the others, to the parents, between the lines saying that, if incest occurs, sexual abuse occurs, it's not the responsibility of the adults, is a responsibility of the child and all these unrepressed..

(Many people are taking at the same time)

Jason: But what he did was worse. First, he came out with this seduction theory, right? And he dropped it pretty quick and he wrote to one of his friends, I don't have a direct quote, I'm sorry that I don't have the direct quote because it was beautiful, that he dropped the whole idea that, you know, fathers were going around molesting all their kids because he had all these hysterical and neurotic patients and he was seeing them, and all of them were reporting sexual abuse from, the majority of them, their fathers and he went and he produces this paper that nobody was really interested and then he dropped it and he wrote to his friend, basically saying, that I dropped it because it just seemed so improbable that so many fathers were sexually molesting their daughters and their children. That basically we would have to consider almost all fathers to be sexual perverts, child molesters. If this were true, so it can't be true. I mean, it was ridiculous. What Freud did is he turned all of these things into fantasies.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: They all became dreams and representations of this nebulous unconscious and his daughter Anna Freud just took it to another level. She wrote a paper early on, explaining how children have fantasies about being physically abused by being beat,.beating fantasies as a way to compensate for their shame for masturbating and I mean this is just a ridiculous concept. The kid comes to you and says "My dad is beating me", "Oh, you were wanking off last night. That's really what happened." So, he turned everything actually and more than... he kind of dropped this whole children seduced, the whole thing they're just making it up.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: He really created a frame work that could basically say, if a child comes to you and says, "I've been sexually molested", they're insatiable slut and they've been in a bath tub, diddling themselves and, you know, they're just making it up.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: That's pretty much, I mean that's psychoanalysis in a nutshell: you have problems because you're making it up, because you can't cope with the fact that you're just nothing more than a pleasure seeking animal. And that's Freud's theory more or less. I mean, there's some Oedipus stuff here and oh yeah the Greeks here and stuff like that. But for the most part, that's all like, you know, a sugar coating on this infantile sexuality pill that you know no thinking, feeling, intelligent adult could ever swallow.

Joe: But I think if you were in a psychotherapy session with Freud and you had half a brain, you would come away knowing a lot more about Freud than you would about yourself.

Laura: Well, and that's the problem because Freud created his psychoanalytic theories about personality, basically, telling us what was going on inside his head, you know. Because you can read the way he describes how a child forms a personality and compare it to someone like Desmond Morris who describes similar things, but in a very different way. Desmond will explain, for example, that the sucking of a child is to bond with the mother, you know and the posterior, the pacifiers and toys are used to remember the warmth of the mother and the love and the care and they want to remember the touch of her skin you know. Freud, on the other hand, will say that the child is nursing or sucking at the mother's breast, not for nourishment, warmth and care, and love, and bonding, but to fulfill his erotic fantasies!

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: The child is having an orgasm!

Jason: Yeah, he basically states that children go through various stages they receive what amounts to sexual gratification from erogenous zones including like the mouth, the anus, the breasts, the genitals...all of these different things... So, he basically goes around saying like every time you wipe a child's bum, you know, he's being

Laura: You're stimulating him sexually.

(several people talking at once)

Laura: You know we ought to keep also in mind that Freud was a confirmed cocaine addict.

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: In 1884 he was getting his cocaine from army doctors and he wrote to his friend Fleiss on June 12th of 1895, "I need a LOT of cocaine." So he had decades of cocaine addiction.

Pierre: Yeah clearly Freud was projecting his own sexual perversions.

Niall: Clearly fraud? Was that a Freudian slip?

(Laura and some other people are laughing)

Pierre: Clearly Freud was projecting his own sexual perversion on a universal basis on every human being and also he was probably projecting his own narratives about this reversal of roles, and they mean the victim, they mean the abused child. Because when you look at Anna's life...

Joe: That was Anna Freud, his daughter.

Pierre: Anna Freud, his daughter all the problems she went through, all the what she's saying in psychotherapy, how she ended her life, all the health problems, you start to wonder what really happened in her childhood?

Jason: She never got married and spent the rest of her life as a spinster, living with her hetero life mate.

Joe: Hmm...

Jason: I mean...

Joe: She fought with regularly.

Jason: This is so...this is a questionable situation. I mean I think that a lot of his theories, especially about childhood seduction came... because I think he did it, to be quite honest. I think he molested Anna. I mean, it's just so suspicious: the way that she stands in all of her pictures, the way she looks, the way she looked up at him. She had a real obvious victim situation.

Joe: Hmm...

Jason:... the victim of him... and how she conducted herself in later life...

Joe: She was going around trying to cure everyone else...

Jason: Yeah...

Joe: ...everyone else's problems with...

Jason: Yeah...I don't know. I'm suspicious.

Joe: Yeah.

Laura: Well then there's a problem with Freud's so-called psychotherapy. Ok? He lied about his so-called scientific case studies. He officially claimed he healed people, but his letters to his buddy, Wilhelm Fleiss, you know, he says he confessed to him that he didn't. He complains that The Ratman or The Wolfman cases that things got worse after psychoanalysis and the individuals never got healed. That's just one example of the falsity of Mister Freud or Mister Fraud. There is an excerpt here from Carl Jung. As many people know, Jung had been a follower of Freud for a period of time, and then, he broke with him completely. And this is what he had to say about Freud...and this is from "Memories, Dreams, and Reflections", chapter 5. He says, "Above all, Freud's attitude towards the Spirit seemed to me highly questionable. Wherever, in a person or in a work of art an expression of SPIRITUALITY (in the intellectual, not the supernatural sense) came to light, he suspected and insinuated that it was repressed sexuality. Anything that could not be directly interpreted as sexuality he referred to as "psychosexuality". I protested that this hypothesis, carried to its logical conclusion would lead to an annihilating judgment upon culture. Culture would then appear as a mere farce, the morbid consequence of repressed sexuality. "Yes," he agreed, "so it is, and that is just a curse of fate against which we are powerless to contend." To me, it was a profound disappointment that all the efforts of the probing mind (Laura's note: that is the Freud's mind) had apparently succeeded in finding nothing more in the depths of the psyche than the all too familiar, all too human limitations. I have grown up in the country among peasants, and what I was unable to learn in the stable, but I found out from the Rabelaisian wit and the untrammeled fantasies of our peasant folklore. Incest and perversions were not remarkable novelties to me and did not call for any special explanation. Along with criminality, they formed part of the black lees that spoiled the taste of life by showing to me only too plainly the ugliness and meaninglessness of human existence. That cabbages thrive in the dung was something I had always taken for granted. In all honesty I could discover no helpful insight in such knowledge. "It's just that all those people are city folks who know nothing about nature and the human stable," I thought, sick and tired of these ugly matters." So in these few paragraphs, from Jung's autobiography, we find the heart of the matter: Freud was a materialist. "He was unable to conceive man more than anything other than animal instinct or the repression of animal instinct. Man's yearning for communion with the eternal, seemed to Freud the fevered imagination of a sexually repressed ape."

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: So, in other words, he basically suffered the psychopath's inability to understand the emotional and spiritual life of a normal man and a normal woman.

Joe: Hmm. Richard Dawkins today.

Pierre: Here, we can see the damage induced by the psychoanalytic movement, which for decades was the one and only theory of the mind, prevalent in most psychoanalyst's office. You had this theory developed by a psychopathic individual asserting that human beings, children are guilty because of their sexual and repressed pulsions [in French: drives, instincts, urges] and, at the same time, in front of the psychiatrists, we have a lot of people, who had been abused sexually, who have suffered incest, who are not necessarily aware of it, but who are deeply damaged by this abuse, who go to a practitioner to get advice, to get help. And this practitioner will repeat the Freud mantras and tell the victim basically, you're the guilty part. You're the one who seduced your parents. You are the one who's responsible for what happened, because of your pulsions [same as above], because of all of these dirty sexual thoughts that invade your mind.

Laura: Basically what Freud had to say about sexuality and about human nature and about reality in general was just a projection of his own sick mind.

Pierre: Hmm.

Jason: I think the continuation of monotheistic patriarchal kind of religion that Freud, you're hopelessly inured, insane because of your horrible sinful flesh. You know I mean, that's kind of really what psychoanalysis is saying to you, basically that you're encouraging a pervert... that, you know, they assert that all men are born sort of lascivious bisexuals who would sleep with anything, if they had a chance, and it's only because of some corrective socializing behavior, he calls it like this polymorphist perversity...

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: ...that all children are born polymorphously perverse, meaning...

Joe: Whatever.

Jason ...they will sleep with animal, mineral, vegetable...

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: ...and whatever you want and that it's the influence of society, which is an arbitrary construct, that forces them to become heterosexual, to become this or that or the other thing...

Joe: There we see the problem with psychiatry today is that, if you go to a psychiatrist, you cannot know to what extent that psychiatrist, and what they're telling you, is a projection of the psychiatrist themselves and their own inner, innate, unknown or not understood drives and feelings, and beliefs, I mean...

Jason: Isn't that the fundamental truth? This is a real problem with everything.

Joe: Yeah, but when you're going to get your head sorted out and just to get some feedback, to get someone to reflect back to you what's going on inside you, very often, you're just getting a mirror of what's inside the psychiatrist. They're projecting it on to you and in a lot of psychotherapeutic sessions; the psychotherapist is getting more out if it than you are.

Pierre: That's right. It's true.

Joe: It's a very rare person today. There are very few who actually can help other people, be objective about it and very few books as well. I mean, there is a morass of, you know, psychotherapeutic manuals and documentation, and the teaching and what people are taught in the university, when they take degrees and stuff, is all essentially Freudian based, and if you want something that actually make sense and is more objective and more helpful and has a chance to help you, you have to go and look for a very tiny number of people that are, thankfully, that are well enough known today like, what do you call her?

Niall: Martha Stout?

Joe: Martha Stout and people like that, who have shown that they actually have some real understanding of human nature. And you're better off, actually, just reading books rather than going to a person I think.

Laura: Yeah. Here is... Let's talk a little bit about Freud, Freudianism or psychotherapy as a cult, which is what it is. I mean, we've got... there is a book on Amazon about Freud that's about his circle, and it's says, from the blurb it says," In the spring of 1919, Sigmund Freud brought his closest colleagues: Ferenczi, Abraham, Rank, Sachs and Jones together, and gave them each a golden ring, symbolizing the formation of a new force in psychoanalysis, securing their undying loyalty to the Master. Freud called this group his secret committee. This inner circle of men helped Freud to expel Carl Jung, and they set the ground rules of psychoanalysis for decades to come." And that's the book is the Secret Ring: Freud's Inner Circle and the Politics of Psychoanalysis by Phyllis Grosskurth. This book talks about the history of his secret committee, which was made to insure the continuation of the existence of the psychoanalytic movement. This committee initially consisted of Ernest Jones, Karl Abraham, Otto Rank, Hanns Sachs, Sandor Ferenczi, and Freud was the ring leader.

Jason: I'm sorry, but the whole Mordor, Sauron, nine rings of power thing, it's just coming up here.

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: Yeah.

Jason: One ring to rule them all! One ring to find them! (in a creepy voice, goofing around)

Laura: Well it says here: quote from the book, quote from the introductions is that, "I began to rethink the inherent significance of the committee who's members had each received a special ring of friendship from Freud. It occurred to me that the story of the committee might serve as a metaphor for the psychoanalytic movement itself. The force of Freud's personality and ideas had engendered a cult of personality, in which Freud, as guru, had demanded complete personal and professional loyalty. In bestowing the rings on the members of the committee, he hoped to become their ring master exerting absolute control over them. The subtexts of psychoanalytic history, that the story of how Freud manipulated and influenced his followers and successors. Their general proclivity caused them to remain enthralled to interminable analysis and, God knows, what they all told Freud during their own analysis by him.

Joe: Hmm...

Laura: Which he knew about them and had to hold over them." So, I mean that..

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: I mean it sounds like ...kind of a...

Jason: Like Scientology...

Laura: Well, Scientology or Skull and Bones, you know that sort of thing..." but in insisting that the committee must be ABSOLUTELY SECRET (Laura's emphasis) Freud enshrined to the principle of confidentiality. The various psychoanalytic societies that emerged from the committee were like communists cells, in which the members vowed eternal obedience to their leader. Psychoanalysis became institutionalized by the sounding of journals and the training of candidates and, of course, the training consisted of being psychoanalyzed by the leader of your cell. In short, it was an extraordinarily effective POLITICAL entity. Great leaders may be venerated or idolized, but the cult of leadership demands that they be remote. Freud was just such a leader. The early psychoanalysis movement took the form of an extended family, whose origin was the idealized family of the committee. It was a male family only of sons led by a patriarchal father, the conspicuous in its lack of the nurturing mother. Undoubtedly, Freud's own early family life: a cold strong mother, a shadowy father and four younger sisters to whom he felt superior, explains something about the dynamic of his self-created family - the committee. Freud was a withholding parent whose adopted children hungered for his attention, quarreling amongst themselves in their rivalry for Freud's attention; the members of the committee were bound even more closely to him. Freud ultimately chose his successor, his own daughter Anna, who had a will as strong as his own, and who possessed the same agile political instincts. For years, she operated as the Palace Guard."

Joe: Hmm!

Laura: So, that's how they created their cult, and, of course, with the nephew Bernays, they propagated this cult and have poisoned the minds of, you know, multiplied millions of members of the human family for many, many years, not to mention, providing tools to the ruling elite...

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: ...of ways to control or to dominate people.

Joe: Yeah, on a massive scale.

Jason: On that topic, right, Ernest Gellner wrote a book called The Culture of Unreason In the Psychoanalytic Movement [maybe, the title is incorrect? and is The Psychoanalytic Movement: The Cunning of Unreason In the Psychoanalytic Movement], where he talks about how it basically was a cult. And he makes this point about how religion is based on this concept of a priori information, that you get the information from an outside source, and this is what makes religion unacceptable, scientifically speaking, and then, he points out that psychoanalysis is, basically, that in order for a person to become healthy they have to be psychoanalyzed, but Freud wasn't psychoanalyzed. He created psychoanalysis.

Laura: Yeah. He analyzed himself. He was self-created.

Jason: He was self-created. He was the only one, who was able to do this, and the basic idea is that, you know, he was like one in a million, you know. Only one in a million of people, or something like that, could ever do it to themselves. Everyone else had to be psychoanalyzed by him.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: Which is basically sort of a religious initiation.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: He initiated them into a mystery cult of the psychoanalytic mysteries, and in that kind of sense, you know, psychoanalysis really is a cult, and he was the charismatic leader, who received his psychoanalytic information, this therapeutic technique: read, i.e. religion, from an a priori source that came into him, and he became the avatar for the psychoanalysis God and then, therefore, initiated the rest of his high priests, sort of ring bearers, or whatever it is, this sort of thing.

Niall: Yeah. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was Freud's! It's like...

Laura: Fiat luxs.

Niall: Exactly. There are other authors as well, who've written about psychoanalysis as a cult. I won't read this abstract, but there is a title of a paper in front of me, by Kevin MacDonald Freud's Follies: Psychoanalysis as Religion, Cult and Political Movement. So, there is a growing awareness and there has been for some time, in parallel, to the proliferation of Freud's ideas that was something seriously wrong at the heart of it. However, its dominance has continued to this day. Before we get some modern day examples, though, another name that springs to mind ... I don't think he was directly a disciple of Freud's, but he had also a tremendous effect... a few decades later. His name was Alfred Kinsey. The famous Kinsey reports on the sexual behavior, so to speak...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: ...of Americans. This was an incredibly pathological, to say the least. This guy presented two reports: one, on the sexual behaviors of American males and the later on, females, in which he says, based on empirical data, he claims to have collected, that X-percentage of Americans are involved in all kinds of deviant behavior, and it became a founding principle in which sex education and Freudian ideas about the infantile sexual behavior that dominates a whole person, the person's whole life, proliferated. And so Kinsey, which was, like I said, based on Freud's original work.

Jason: I would just like to clarify how this man got his empirical evidence ( Jason is laughing). Basically, what the guy would do, he would take young college boys and girls up to his attic and film him and his wife having sex with them. This is the source of that information. I would not... Oh, my God! I can't even...

Niall: And this guy is considered "the father of the sexual revolution."

Joe: Yup.

Niall: Again, we see...

Jason: He, probably, was.

(Someone's laughing in the studio)

Niall: Again, we see that someone's ideas get out there and mass proliferate, where there is no scientific merit for them to do so,

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: but they become dominant ideologies that then shape and dictate policy. I mean, if Kinsey... Kinsey, in a very Freudian way, he said that children are quote, "100% orgasmic." He said "Incest is good for children." He didn't say it directly but he was implying that, and he came up with statistics to prove these a priori statements that, of course, shocked the country when they first heard them. You do wonder to what extent people like Kinsey by projecting their inner landscape and their behavior on the country, then influence, and then bring about the reality to say of increased sexual behavior and child abuse.

Pierre: Yeah and vice versa. I would say, now we might get one of the explanations why, in France, the Freudian movement is so strong. For the movement via Freud's french lieutenant Lacan. In France, it's almost impossible to find a psychiatrist or psychologist that is not Freudian. Those theories are the big success in this country. At the same time, when you check some surveys, you learn that more than 50% of French children have experienced incest. So, you start to wonder beyond your reasoning about self-fulfilling prophecies with this statistic in mind, you realize that some people would be very interested in seeing the population adopting the Freudian ideas because this way, their guilty behavior, the pedophilic behaviors would be legitimized, legalized, thanks to the widespread adoption of the Freudian ideas. For the perpetrators of such acts, adopting Freudian ideas is an excellent solution.

Joe: Hmm...

Niall: Yeah. Well Lobaczewski talks about this: the use of ideologies as a Trojan horse in order to introduce into society the revolution that psychopaths wish to see. What... when people in general think of revolution, they think of a mass improvement for most people. Psychopaths have a very different goal in mind, and they latch on to these ideas, because, oh, here is something that can help us create the world that suits us, and Freud's and Kinsey's ideas were godsends to seeing a world in which their behavior would be acceptable, in which they could...

Joe: ... could be adopted by...

Jason: A lot of Freud's theories kind of centered around this concept of problems... of neurotic and hysterical problems in people being brought about by their alienation from society, that they felt alienated. And, I think, that was again his projection because he as a ...I'm fairly sure, that he sounds very psychopathic...did, obviously, feel very alienated, and they do feel alienated.

Laura: So, he had to normalize his own internal sickness, in order to feel less alienated from society.

Jason: Right, right.

Laura: He wanted to, you know...everybody had it, everybody was doing it and everybody was thinking it and they weren't just admitting it. It was repressed or it was, you know, projected, or it was, you know...

Jason: Well, we heard that kind of stuff before, though. Everybody's doing it. You know, it's ok.

Pierre: There is another negative consequence of this Freudian movement. Like a Catholic Church, the Freudian movement created hierarchy and, basically, created two classes: the initiated ones and the profane ones. The non-initiated ones, the initiated ones being the practitioners and the non-initiated ones being the patients, and so there was ingrained in people's minds, this hierarchy. At the same time, it planted the seed of deep guilt and deep shame in individuals, because of all these dirty, unconscious thoughts, and it shaped consciously or unconsciously the behavior of generations of patients towards their therapists and the behavior of thousands of therapists towards their patients. This submission that the patient exhibits and this control, this power that the therapist exerts on the patient... and there's an excerpt here trying to explain why electroshocks are being practiced. Electroshocks have been practiced for decades in the whole world. Millions of people are going through electroshocks that is basically torture, but not only you're tortured but, in addition, you pay or your insurance company pays the ones, who tortures you, so it's even worse than torture. So, here you I read "the rationale for electroshock was formally charged in psychoanalytic terms"...hmm, excuse me..."with punitive super-egos, sometimes requiring repeated shocks of 110 volts for appeasement. Only then, could guilt be assuaged and discontent be relieved."

Jason: Ah, sick. (Jason laughing nervously)

Laura: Somebody should've put them down when they were... ( laughing)

Jason: I mean, seriously. How is that not akin to like, flagellating yourself, or something, "I have to submit to flesh"..blah-blah-blah...( in a mean voice). I mean, it's still the same kind of Christian doctrine of sublimation of flesh, punishing it for guilt and original sin, you know? And what I was gonna point out though, is what we said about science. Science entirely, not just psychology, not just psychiatry, they create a priesthood that we are supposed to follow, a hierarchy of, you know, different academics at different levels, tenured professors, professor emeritus, habilitated, you know, Nobel laureates and all these different types of things. So, they have this hierarchy of scientific priests with you know kind of like Richard Dawkings, who is kind of like the Pope, you know? And they mimic the exact structure, and in a certain way. They have a very well organized structure of vetting and training, and they have their own uniforms and ...

Pierre: Ok. Talking about Nobel prize, I cannot skip this information. The father of lobotomy, who was a neurologist, Portuguese neurologist, who lived in the beginning of 20th century, he's called Moniz. He started to perform lobotomies. It's very consistent with this materialistic, exclusively materialistic paradigm, vision of humanity...

Joe: animals.

Pierre: animals, as a machine, you know, and the brain being a complicated wheels and complicated machinery, nothing else, purely tangible, purely material. So, following this materialistic approach, he developed a theory that by cutting some connection, removing the bad tissues in the brain, the mental illnesses will be cured. So, he started to perform lobotomy, this Moniz guy. First, he was opening the skull and injecting ethanol directly in the targeted areas, the prefrontals, where the personality is.

Niall: Well, ethanol is like pure alcohol.

Joe: Hmm...Hmm..

Pierre: Exactly. And then, they experimented with insertion of radioactive rods in the target area - the prefrontal cortex, and then, they came with the... kind of picks, mechanical...

Joe: That was the guy Moniz originally had the idea of cutting open and then basically destroying the prefrontal cortex with alcohol, but then it was an American doctor, Walter Freeman who came along and he basically used an ice pick, that he shoved up under your eye, into through your eye, up into the front of your brain, rubbed it around and scraped it around a few times, until he was happy that he figuratively just destroyed the front of your brain. And then pulled it out and said, "off you go", and he, this guy had a "lobotomobile" that he traveled around the US. This is in the 1930s. People would just come along with a referral.

Laura: It wasn't the Bat mobile.

Joe: No. With a referral from a doctor you just go into the lobotomobile, and they stick a pick up through your eye and this was all basically, he was a neuro physician, neuropsychiatrist. It was all psychiatry based!

Pierre: I just finished Moniz and indeed you're right. Freeman was one of the successors of the American disciples of Moniz, but Moniz got the Nobel Prize of Medicine in 1949.

Joe: Yeah.

Laura: For inventing lobotomy?!

Pierre: Yeah. Exactly.

Laura: For inventing lobotomy???!!!!

Joe: Cutting open your head and pouring alcohol in. I mean...

Jason: This is a legacy...

Laura: This is freaking science???

Joe: it was only 70 years ago. This is what it's based on. This is our...

Laura: It makes you wonder, did somebody get a Nobel Prize for inventing thalidomide???

Jason: Here is the thing that always gets me. No matter all of the good things that Mother Teresa did, she is never going to be able to make up for Torquemada. That's the basic thing that everyone goes around taking about when everybody wants to talk about Catholicism, its pedophile boys and the inquisition.

Joe: Well that's true.

Jason: They're not gonna live it down.

Joe: Mother Teresa was a charlatan anyway.

Jason: Well she probably was.

Joe: No. She was.

Jason: But you know. Ok. It doesn't matter what good deeds they do, right? They still can't live down the horrible suffering they did, and people take them to task for it. Whenever the Catholic Church comes along and says, "Hey, wait a minute. We're trying to do good now." Everyone says, "What about all those little boys you touched, and what about that inquisition? What was that all about, anyway?" Right? And then everybody is ok with this! Everyone is completely comfortable with this. If you take the same tack with science, people look at you like you're crazy. And it's just like "yeah..." But I mean I don't care how many cellphones they make, you know. I don't care how many respirators machines they make. Let's talk over here about Nagasaki. Let's talk about all the...

Laura ...irrational...

Jason: Let's talk about the "lobotomobile". Let's talk about Hiroshima. Let's talk about predator drones...

Joe: Well, the thing is...

Jason: ... things that science had contributed that have killed...

Laura: Multiplied millions and millions of people.

Jason: ...multiplied people. More people than were ever killed in the entire history of the Catholic Church have been killed in 20th century...

Laura: By science.

Jason: science! More people than the Catholic Church ever managed to kill. I mean they were going around slaughtering people with the sword, that takes a lot of work. They were actively going around killing people, and saying it was good for God, and they still couldn't top what a scientist in a lab does with a couple of numbers and a calculator, he builds a bomb that kills millions...

Laura: At once.

Jason: once! I mean, the evil that has been done by science far outweighs all of the good that has been done by it at the end of the day, and even if it wasn't necessary. That's the thing they trick you. They make you think, that it is the price you pay. It's the price you pay for your heart and lung machines at the hospital...

Laura: Your antibiotics.

Jason: ...and all your antibiotics, you know, that TV that you like, your car, your computer. Like, "Look at all the good things we did. Yeah, there's a couple of other things over here, but you know what? Look at what you're getting in return," and the thing is that the price is not that. We don't have to have those things. We have those things because we let these little psychopath pastors...

Joe: Yeah

Jason: amok and they... they sold us down the river for 30 pieces of silver.

Joe: So, let's make a deal, you know. Let's say we will give back the cars and the modern conveniences if you just stop lobotomizing us, or if you know, figuratively maybe today, but if you stop plying our children full of Ritalin. Because they have a little DSM as a ... conduct disorder!

Laura: Yeah. They're acting like normal children, and that means they have conduct disorder.

Joe: Adolescent rebellion.

Jason: I'd be worried about a kid...

Joe: Is it a disorder. Your adolescent is being rebellious? Fill them full of Ritalin!

Jason: That it's the sign of sickness, is a sign of mental health to not be adjusted?

Joe: Was that Krishnamurti?

Jason: Krishnamurti said and then...

Joe: ...that no measure of mental health...

Jason: ...the King, one of my favorite, Martin Luther King said that, "They have this word bending around now..

(Horrible screeching sound and then long pause...)

Joe: Oops! Sorry. Carry on.

Jason: Do you have it?

Joe: No. Carry on.

Jason: ...and then he talks about you know, "I'm glad to be maladjusted. I'm glad that I'll never adjust myself to racial bigotry. I'm glad, I'll never..." you know, adjust myself to all this different stuff: economic slavery and things like that. And that's the thing, you know. I mean, a child is sick when he does what the teacher tells him to do because the teacher's messed up.

Joe: Hmm.

Pierre: And there might be some social engineering going on here because one of the main target of psychiatry and psychology is depression. Today, hundreds of millions of people all around the world are suffering officially from depression. It's considered as a disease. A disease means you too much away from the norm, and the norm, of course, is defined unilaterally by some...

Jason: The golden mean.

Pierre: or some obscure administrative boys.

Jason: It has a term, it's called the Golden Mean.

Pierre: Yeah.

(Jason is laughing)

Pierre: Now, we can wonder, if in the current world, if you see the world that it is, objectively, isn't a relative depression nor an emotional reaction to what is going on and to what you see?

Laura: In other words, if you're not depressed, you're not normal!

Pierre: Yes, and if you go deeper than that: it's maybe the ones who are not depressed who are not normal. And so the one who should be committed, is the one who are part of the happy cult that should go to psychotic ward and be treated?

Jason: I mean, if a person lives in the modern world and thinks that it is a great place or even a decent place, they're seriously messed up, that person needs help, they need shock therapy. (Jason laughing)

Pierre: You know, Rosemary Kennedy, the very own sister of John Fitzgerald Kennedy. She was lobotomized...

Jason: In the lobotomobile.

Pierre: Freeman.

Jason: By Freeman yeah.

Pierre: By Freeman and...

Laura: Is that true?

Jason: It is.

Pierre: Yeah.

Laura: Oh my God!

Pierre: And the story is that she was mentally retarded. It's not true.

Jason: So sticking holes in her brain was the way to solve this?

Pierre: Yeah. It doesn't solve it. It reduces. It's been statistically scientific proof it reduces IQ. Of course you were just brain damaged. This being said, experts have stated that Rosemary Kennedy was maybe not very bright, but the reason why her father committed her to lobotomy is because she was rebellious, and after the lobotomy, she was totally compliant. She was a complaint legume. She was...

Laura: To give by the way for you non-French speakers: a legume means in French a "vegetable."

Joe: Hmm.

(Laura's laughing)

Pierre: She was a compliant vegetable.

(Laura keeps laughing)

Joe: She was a veggie-table (playing with pronunciation of the word "vegetable")

Pierre: Exactly.

Niall: All this talk of lobotomies and alcohol in the brain...

Joe: Does it make you wanna drink?

Laura: It reminds you of a joke doesn't it?

Niall: Yeaaah. I think, I 'd rather have a bomb in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

Laura: I have one (jokingly): "What does one neurosurgeon say to the other? He don't loboto-me, I won't loboto-you."

Jason: This is worse, then like, operating...

Laura: Well you've got to make a joke about it, because it's so horrifying that you just can't believe that this is the reality we live in, people! But this is the world, and they are trying to make us except this as normal. And if you accept this as freaking normal, you need....

Jason: Sick f...ks

Laura: Yeah. You need, you need something.

Pierre: Maybe, we should talk a little bit to raise our mood and talk about something more positive.

Laura: All right! All right!

Pierre: Prescription drugs in psychiatry.

Joe: Well...

Laura: Prescription...

Joe: Well, carry on.

Pierre: Today, you have in the US, I think 40 million people who are diagnosed with mental illness, and a lot of them end up being on prescription drugs. Like in a...

Laura: 40 million! Stop a second! There is what 350 million people in the US or 300 million?

Pierre: Yeah.

Laura: Which is it?

Pierre: I think it's about 300 million...

Laura: So, 40 million is what percent of...

Jason: It's about 1/4

Pierre: 1/7th

Jason: 1/7th

Laura: 1/7th of the entire... so that means 1 in every 7 people you meet...

Jason: crazy.

Laura: one of these people.

Pierre: According to the DSM.

Laura: If you know 14 people you are know 2 of them.

Niall: Well, the thing is, that's officially according to their criteria for it. The reality, I think it was Martha Stout who wrote about this, the reality is that as a result of all these efforts to make people happy by applying these outdated, barbaric psychological theories and practices, the rate is probably more like 85 to 90 percent of people who got this.

Jason: I was gonna say, think about how many people are on drugs? I mean what do you think MDMA is about? I mean, common! That kind of stuff is to make people happy, because life sucks...

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: What about all the people smoking pot, doing coke, Vicodin and all these other things? I mean, people, who aren't necessarily diagnosed with and prescribed some sort of medication for a mental disorder are probably self-medicating with some sort of illegal substance?

Laura: Well, they don't want them smoking pot because, of course you know, you can grow your own pot. They wanna keep that illegal, so, that they can prescribe them pharmaceuticals! That has to be paid for and they can make billions of dollars!

Jason: Which are sometimes actually made from pot.

Joe: Yeah. So, leaving aside, I mean, obviously through the misuse and misdiagnosis in psychiatry, there are many people today on drugs that are being pushed on them by Big Pharma through psychiatrists who know nothing really about the human, human mental illness, if any. They... I forgot what I was gonna say...

Laura: You're not allowed to forget what you gonna say, when you're talking on the radio, Joe, you know...

Jason: You're fired. Get out.

Pierre: We can call psychiatrist to solve your memory problems.

Jason: I think we need to give this man some drugs.

Joe: I think I have some memory disorder. I need some Ritalin. That will help me...

Jason: Somebody get the ice pick. He needs a lobotomy.

Joe: ...that will turn me into forgetful zombie.

Jason: Pierre, pull up the lobotomobile.

Pierre: Ok. Don't move, Joe. It will be painless.

Joe: And yeah. So, psychiatry and all of the drugs that they are pushing on people today. Yeah, that's all I was gonna say.

Laura: Oh, well. Ok. Carry on Niall.

Niall: I have a couple of personal stories about experiences with...

Joe: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

Niall: ... the prescribed medication. When I was 14 I had severe acne like many 14 year olds do. My mom took me to a dermatologist and within couple of weeks I was on heavy prescription for Roacatane. Of course, I've since learned that Roacatane is a serious...

Laura: What is that called?!!!

(everyone's laughing)

Niall: Roacatane.

Laura: It sounds like Wackatane, you know, makes you wacky...

Niall: Roacatane.

Laura: Ok.

Joe: Ro-wack-a-mole.

Niall: Now it's prescribed as something for physical ailment, namely your skin, but it's actually extremely close to... it's essentially...

Laura: it psychoactive?

Niall: of these anti-depressants. Its an SSRI slightly adjusted for the dermatology market. It's really an anti-depressant. It's really a mind altering drug.

Laura: Were you a happy guy?

Niall: Nooo. I went from being a bit of a crazy teenager to a seriously, seriously much more crazy teenager as a direct result of it, and, of course, I since learned that if you read the small print on these packages, these pills, you know, side effects may be psychosis and suicide.

Laura: You're lucky.

Joe: Yeah.

Pierre: I have some personal stories too. My...

Joe: Can you hold your personal story for a minute? We've got a call.

Pierre: Of course.

Joe: Don't want to keep them waiting too long? Hello?

Joe: Hi, caller. What's your name and where are you calling from?

Caller #1: Hi! I'm Shane from New York.

Joe: Hey, Shane.

Shane: Hi, everybody. Yeah, I just wanted to comment you know I was just thinking how ironic it is that psychology and psychiatry, you know, do have this materialistic basis, but, you know, they've missed, they've completely missed the physical aspect that can actually help people, which is diet. And I know, like in my own experience, using diet to clear up a lot of cognitive stuff, and it way more effective than, you know, and anything related to....

Laura: When do you say diet, what do you mean specifically?

Shane: Oh, well, mostly getting rid of the gluten, dairy, sugar, carbs and going basically on Paleo/ketogenic diet.

Laura: So, this hss really helped you to clear up cognitive issues? What kind of cognitive issues?

Shane: Well, years ago I was... I went to a psychologist. I was trying to sort out some ADD-type things. I just had very bobby thinking. I wouldn't be able to hold a coherent thought. The very... it just divided in my mind and it would come across a lot in just you know my everyday behavior and thoughts. So I remember I went to see a psychologist and he was all about prescribing me some medications. He says, "Oh, great! You know get on this Ritalin stuff and you will be brand new." And that was the last time I saw him (Shane's chuckling), and I figured out...

Joe: Hmm.

Shane: ...there's got to be another way. That's when I started to look into diet, and at the time, I don't think the Paleo stuff was around yet, and, although the gluten-free, casein-free diet was pretty popular, particularly with the autistic community. And I guess like it was also being promoted for anybody who suffered from symptoms of ADD. I didn't have the hypertension stuff, just the inattentiveness.... and, so, I tried that and it was helpful a lot, but you know, it didn't completely get rid of everything. It wasn't until, probably a couple of months later, I had been reading your forum and you guys picked up on a lot of the anti-inflammatory foods and herbs. Getting rid of inflammatory foods which was gluten and all know, really looking into many vegetables and stuff. You know, it is amazing just that being both pain free, I mean, it's interesting to relate to things going on in my mind, but it translated to a lot of different areas of health and it's remarkable, you know?

Pierre: What is true Shane is that one commonly held belief is that, because of the blood brain barrier, the BBB, the brain is immune to any food you take: it's separated, totally separated, it is not true! The blood-brain barrier is permeable to many substances, in particular, small molecules, peptides, small proteins, some lectins, some pseudo purines like what you find in some of the wheat and dairy, for example; and by stopping eating this kind of food that you definitely reduce the inflammation in your brain and you put your brain in a more normal context with the proper nutrients and the proper environment to function properly.

Shane: Yeah and all the connections too with the brain and the gut. I just found pretty fascinating, just how the gut connects as kind of a second brain.

Joe: Yes, so again like we talked about this last week, and it's basically the nexus of big agribusiness providing all of these toxic and inflammatory foods to people that they then go to their psychiatrist or their doctor for if it is causing them mental problems or physical problems. You'll have a doctor or psychiatrist, who is prescribing some kind of pills from Big Pharma, who then can get rich from that, and those pills then essentially zombified people in a lot of cases for all these diseases...

Laura: Which makes them easier to control.

Joe: ...which makes the government happy too.

Laura: It's just a wonderful circular system.

Joe: Yeah. They have it tied, locked up and you know tied down.

Jason: The funny thing is that the companies are owned by all the same person.

Joe: Yeah..

Jason: These are the same companies who own the drugs and the food and supply the medical schools with money, is very curious.

Joe: Yeah. When you say "government" and then "big Pharma", and "big agribusiness", you've got a bunch of people all just revolving around in through those...

Laura: Same families, the same money.

Joe: Yeah, anyway. Shane, thanks for your call. We're gonna move to another call here, ok?

Shane: All right. Thanks everybody.

Niall: Thanks Shane. take it easy.

Jason: Thanks, bro'.

Pierre: Bye, Shane.

Joe: Hi, caller. What's your name and where are you calling from?

Caller #2: My name is Jamar. I'm calling from Tacoma.

Joe: Hi Jamar. Welcome to the show.

Jamar: Um, I'm sorry I don't wanna veer off topic, but I kind of really just wanted to talk to you because I just got off of work. I've always have been a follower of your guys' work. I appreciate you guys a lot, and I just wanted to tell you like, which you are really doing, like it motivates me, and I go through things in my life, and I really appreciate the work you guys do and Laura, and everything and like... I like this, for example, I just got this new book called Operators and Things.

Laura: That's a great one, but scary too, ha?

Jason: Oh dude I love that book so much.

Jamar: Yeah.

Jason: It's like Ponerology for Dummies, but with all the different words. Like, she doesn't use the word "psychopaths", but she's basically talking about the same thing.

Jamar: Yeah. It kind of scares me a little bit because, like cryptographic overlords and things like that. Think about it in many different ways, but I don't know. I'm just calling cause' I just appreciate you guys a lot.

Laura: Thank you.

Jamar: Keep me going.

Jason: We appreciate you, guys.

Pierre: Thank you, Jamar.

Laura: Thank you. Big hugs and kisses.

Jamar: Yeah thank, thank you Laura. That's all I wanted to say really. That's it.

Laura and others: Thank you.

Niall: Take care.

Jamar: Ok, you too.

Joe: All right, so, again back to our topic. We still have some time together to get on here. What I actually... do you wanna say something...

Laura: Yeah...

Joe: ...because I know what I was gonna say...

Laura: Yeah. Well what were you gonna say?

Joe: Well, it lead into kind of a bit of a history in a way was the idea that today you have all these people who are maladjusted to society and, as Jason was saying, according to...

Laura: Well I was gonna say something positive.

Joe: Ok. Carry on.

Laura: ...because, if you wanna, if you wanna...

Joe: No. Do positive, do positive.

Laura: Ok. Do positive. I wanna to point out that there is a great book out there. It's called... it's by Timothy Wilson, I believe, and it's called Strangers To Ourselves by Timothy D. Wilson. And he also wrote another book called "Redirect" which is about how to deal with some of your issues. Anyway, and I'm gonna read you just a little bit from it and he says, "It might seem that self-knowledge is essential topic in psychology, in some ways it is. From Freud onwards, psychologists have been fascinated by the extent to which people know themselves, the limits of this knowledge and the consequence of failures of self-insight. Surprisingly, however, self-knowledge has not been a mainstream topic in academic psychology. There are few college courses on self-knowledge and few books devoted to the topic if we rule out self-help books and ones from a psychoanalytic point of view. But in recent years there has been an explosion of scientific research on self-knowledge that paints a different portrait from the one presented by Freud and his followers. People do possess a powerful, sophisticated, adaptive unconscious that is crucial for survival in the world. Because this unconscious operates so efficiently out of view, however, and is largely inaccessible, there is a price to pay in self-knowledge. There is a great deal about ourselves that we cannot know directly, even with the most painstaking introspection. How, then, can we discover our non-conscious traits, goals and feelings? Is it always to our advantaged do so? To what extent are researchers in academia rediscovering Freud and psychoanalysis? How can self-knowledge be studied scientifically? These are questions to which I turn in the following pages."

And then, he talks about Freud and gets to the point where he says that (long pause),"There are undoubtedly many reasons for a lack of self-insight; people may be blinded by their hubris (a favorite Greek and Shakespearean theme), confused, or simply never take the time to examine their own lives and psyche very carefully. The reason that I will address, perhaps, the most common of all is that much of what we want to know about ourselves resides outside of conscious awareness. The idea that a large portion of the human mind is unconscious is not new and was Freud's greatest insight."

So, we've got to say something about Freud that's positive. The idea that most of what goes on inside our minds and in our behavior and our actions and interactions with other people and our reactions and so forth, you know, is unconscious. It's driven by a lot of instinctual processes. So, he says, "Modern psychology owes Freud a large debt for his willingness to look beyond the narrow corridor of consciousness. But a revolution has occurred in empirical psychology concerning the nature of the unconscious, however, that has revealed the limits of the Freudian conception. Initially, research psychologists were skittish about even mentioning non-conscious mental processes. In the first half of the twentieth century, the behaviorist onslaught in psychology was fueled by a rejection of mentalism. Behaviorists argued that there was no need to take into account what occurred inside people's heads, consciously or unconsciously. In the late 1950s, mainstream psychology took the giant step of rejecting behaviorism and initiating the systematic study of the mind. But the first experimental psychologists to leap off the behaviorism bandwagon said little about whether those aspects of the mind they were studying were conscious or unconscious. This was a taboo question. Few psychologists wanted to jeopardize the newfound respectability of the mind as a scientific topic by saying, "Hey, not only can we study what people are thinking; we can study what goes on inside their heads that even they can't see! In the psychological laboratories of academia, few self-respecting psychologists wanted to risk the accusation that they were, God forbid, Freudians."

Laura: Do we have another caller?

Joe: We do.

Laura: Hang on.

Joe: Hi caller. What's your name and where you calling from?

Caller # 3: Hi, this is Erica. I'm calling from Hawaii.

Joe: Hi, Erica.

Everybody together: Hi. Hello.

Laura: Aloha.

Erica: Aloha. So great to hear you both. I just wanted to call and say thank you so much for sharing this topic. If it weren't for all the work you've done, my family would've fallen into that psychiatry hole. (Erika's laughing)

Laura: Well, thank you.

Erica: And I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your show. Every Sunday we look forward to it, and I wanted to just ask, if you could comment, just a little bit, on this drugging of American children and, maybe, children around the world.

Joe: Ok. We can do that.

Laura: Ok. All right, Joe.

Joe: Do you wanna stay on the line or do you wanna..

Erica: Ah, sure. Well I just bring this up because I've gone through this personally, and just as kind of a topic to bring up is this new diagnosis that they call ODD - oppositional defiant disorder. So, if you guys wanted to take it away, I will listen. My daughter was diagnosed with it, but we never gave her meds and we did do...

Jason: Hold on a second. You had a professional doctor? You paid a doctor to tell you that your child was odd?

(Jason's laughing)

Erica: Well it was actually 3 different psychiatrists and it was...

Jason: Did you bitch slap that guy?

(Erica's laughing)

Jason: I mean, just right upside the head I mean?

(Erica's laughing again)

Jason: My child is ODD.... That's what you think "pssh"

Erica: Well, luckily because of all the information, you folks provide, I was able to keep my daughter off of drugs. But it was a long drawn-out battle. And I had 4 different psychiatrists give the same diagnosis, and then, 3 different psychologists backed that up. So...

Laura: Did she grow out of it?

Erica: Yes. Thanks to the...

Laura: That happens.

Erica: Yup. The breathing and the diet and just a lifestyle change. She's made a tremendous turnaround. So, I just wanted to say thank you.

Joe: Ok.

Laura: Thank you. Kissy-kissy.

Erica: Thank you. I will keep listening. Aloha.

Joe: Aloha.

Laura: Aloha.

Pierre: Aloha.

Joe: Yeah, well that's I mean that's what I just mentioned earlier on. There is conduct... She's in oppositional defiant disorder?

Laura: Yeah. That's a new one.

Joe: That seems to be similar to adolescent rebellion disorder...

Laura: Well, yeah. It's pretty much the same.

Joe: ...and a more general one is conduct disorder...

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: ... I mean who knows...

Laura: If you don't conduct yourself the way powers that be want you to conduct yourself, then you have a disorder.

Joe: Right, well the thing about it is that people have to remember that in these kind of mental health disorders that psychiatrists dole out to a penny, none of them are scientifically based.

Laura: None of them.

Joe: I.e. there are no diagnostic tests to determine whether or not someone has any of those. You can't prove it. It's an opinion. Like we were saying earlier on...

Laura: Is anyone ever read, for crying all night? Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, you know.

Jason: That's the problem. The thing is it's kind of like what Malcolm Reynolds says from Serenity, there is just no place for naughtiness anymore. You know I mean, kids when you are a teenager, man, you get in fights, you know. You do stuff that you're really not supposed to do. And that's what it's all about. When I was a kid, you know, we used to get into fights. Now, I read in the news that they expel you even if you look at somebody cross-eyed! And that's just mind-bogglingly insane!

Joe: And the thing is okay some parents have a...

Laura: Well, I don't approve of getting into fights.

Jason: Yeah, but you know you can't stop it. I got into fights. What, are you gonna send me to jail?

Niall: Ok. No. You're grounded. You're in trouble.

Jason: Put me in the electric chair? Yeah, I punched people in the face. It was fun at the time.

Joe: It's part of parenting, you know...

Laura: Alright but you don't get any dessert tonight.

Joe: Ok. Ok. We've got another caller here.

Jason: So how do you handle this?

Joe: We're gonna go with this one.

Jason: You don't put them up in...

Joe: Hi, caller. What's your name and where you are calling from?

Caller#4: Hi! I'm Betsy.

Joe: Hi, Betsy.

Betsy: I'm calling from North Carolina.

Joe: From North Carolina.

Jason: Hey Betsy.

Betsy: I'm just enjoying your radio show again. And I wanted to bring up how psychiatry is now used as a political tool against dissidents. I mean, it always has, to a certain degree, but it seems to have gotten really insane lately. Anyone who disagrees with what our government is doing has some type of mental disorder.

Laura: Yeah, and Nially-bob has a case on that too, I think.

Niall: Yeah, but you go ahead. Tell us your experience of it.

Betsy: Well I mean it's not so much my personal experience, is that I'm watching every activist I know... (coughing)... excuse me, labeled with some kind of disorder. There were examples of it on Sott recently the names that they are given to these different, so-called disorders. And there, of course, now there is the psychiatric community is going to back it up. And I'm wondering how far we are from the courts mandating these mental drugs. It's already being done with people that are, say, schizophrenic or ...or somehow violent, you know. The courts are already ordering that these people take these drugs as ordered by their doctors. Their free will is taken away from them. They absolutely have to take these drugs, unless they want to go to prison.

Laura: Well, they're saying that anybody who thinks that there is a conspiracy, and the government, you know, has got some kind of disorder and they're mentally ill, and if you think that 9/11 was an inside job, you've got some kind of disorder, and you need to be locked up and medicated...

Betsy: You guys...

Laura: The list just goes on in that sort of thing.

Joe: There's gonna be an anti-patriotic disorder soon.

Jason: I think there already is.

Betsy: I think there already is!

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: Well, several years ago, 2006, a journalist in New Zealand was approached by 2 social workers in their home, abducted and committed to a psychiatric unit in a hospital, where she was drugged, because she had written, well, they didn't obviously directly link this, but she had written articles in a magazine called "On Sensor" in New Zealand, in which she outlined the case about criminal elements within the US administration had been responsible or involved in 9/11, and she had to fight hard to get out of there, as you can imagine. So, we see this in New Zealand as far away as you can get from the US.

Laura: And what about the...

Niall: Because of their political beliefs, the dissident is locked up.

Laura: What about the members of the psychiatric or psychological expert community that were involved in supervising torture, implemented by the Bush administration and now the Obama administration. I mean what can you say about a psychologist or a psychiatrist who actually actively would participate in something that is so morally reprehensible that they themselves ought to be subjected to the very things that they are allowing or prescribing, or saying, oh that's not over the line? Oh, don't... don't we have a clip from Evidence of Revision of that interrogation by... you know for... the interrogation of Sandy Serrano?

Joe: Sirhan Sirhan? Sandy Serrano and no we don't, but what I would say about people who do that, psychiatrists who do that, who engage in rubber stamping torture, I would say that they have sold their souls, but...

Laura: If they have a soul.

Joe: ...they clearly don't have one, when they're doing that. So, what have they sold? Nothing. So that's why they can do it. They don't have anything to loose.

Laura: So, if you, if you read any lists of names of any psychiatrist or psychologist who has been involved in or approved of or has not protested against that sort of behavior, you know. Let me go biblical on you here! Those people have taken the mark of the Beast!

Betsy: And it's happening in our prisons too. Say, you want to go and protest the war. You're arrested, you're put in jail and you fed drugged food. And it's already been established in the court in the US that these prisons are allowed to drug the prisoner's food with calming agents without telling them what's in it, without telling them how much is in their food, so, you know what I mean, if you're drugging a mass amount of...

Joe: Hmm.

Betsy: ...cafeteria line food, you know, who's getting what dose, it depends upon who eats what? So, there is not even any supervision of who is getting what drug, but they've acknowledged that "Yes, we drug prisoners to keep them calm."

Laura: Not to mention the fluoride that they put in the water to keep the masses calm and dumb.

Betsy: Yeah. So, if you are an activist now and you get arrested, you can pretty much count on the fact that you're gonna be drugged without, you know, without any due process. You haven't been convicted of anything yet, you've just been held in jail. They put a bond on you that maybe your friends need a while to raise or whatever, but even while you're waiting for your trial, you are given psychoactive drugs without your permission, I mean, without even being informed of what you've being fed! They don't have to tell you what's in their food. Believe it or not, it's been ruled as a corporate secret, something that's proprietary. And they're using those proprietary corporate laws in these private prisons not to reveal how they keep the prisoners calm.

Jason: That's an entire...

Betsy: The same with the fracking issue. They don't have to tell us what they're putting in our ground water because that's a proprietary secret!

Joe: Hmm.

Betsy: It doesn't matter if your well head explodes off, it's still a proprietary secret! So, they're getting away with...

Jason: I mean, the entire show...

Betsy: ...putting all kind of chemicals into people who haven't even been convicted of a crime yet.

Jason: The entire show...

Betsy: But by the time you get to the courts...

Jason:...can be dedicated to the prison system, you know, I mean...

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: talk about the military industrial complex. The prison system is a huge, cash-hungry cow. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, and these guys have their own lobbyist. They want stricter laws. They want more people in their jails. They get money for it. There are unions of prison guards that march against the repealing of laws because they don't... they want more people in their jails.

Joe: Hmm.Hmm.

Jason: An entire show can be done just on this...

Laura: And the United States has more people in prison than any other country on the planet.

Joe: Yeah.

Laura: We've got another caller.

Jason: Welcome to aparthied South Africa.

Joe: All right, Betsy. Thanks for your call.

Laura: Kissy-kissy.

Pierre: Thank you, Betsy.

Betsy: Nice talking to you all.

Jason: Take care. Goodnight.

Betsy: Bye-bye.

Joe: Hi caller. What's your name and where're you calling from?

Caller #5: Hi! This is Tiffany from Ohio.

Joe: Hi Tiffany!

Tiffany: Hi!

Laura: How are you doing?

Joe: Hello.

Tiffany: We're doing great.

Laura: (inaudible)

Tiffany: Yeah. I'm really enjoying the show today. I wanted to talk a little bit, because you were talking about lobotomies. They're not doing lobotomies now, but there's more like a chemical lobotomy, the side effects of the drugs, all the anti-psychotics and anti-depressants that they are giving to people.

Laura: Tiffany, Tiffany, real quick... Let the other listeners know what your profession is?

Tiffany: Oh, I'm a psychiatric nurse.

Laura: Ok. Carry on.

Tiffany: I work... So, I was taking about the side effects of the drugs, particularly the newer anti-psychotics like Risperdal and Seroquil, and drugs like that: they cause metabolic syndrome and diabetes, and something called tardive dyskinesia, which is involuntary movement of the extremities and the face and the mouth, which is not reversible, like parkinsonian type symptoms, weight gain. I saw a lady that was in a hospital where I used to work. She was there for about 8 weeks, and she put on like 25 pounds, and she wasn't even on the drugs for the entire 8 weeks. Sexual side effects and what I've noticed is that people, it's like they lose their mojo. They have very flat expressions. They can't find words. It's really sad to see them. Like in other countries, if someone has a psychotic break, it's usually seen as a one off thing, but here, if you have a psychotic brake for whatever reason, it's like a sentence to spend your life on all these horrible drugs.

Pierre: Yeah. Just one point, lobotomy is still performed in the US and many other countries. They just changed the...

Tiffany: Oh, really?

Pierre:, the wording. Yeah. It's now called psycho-surgery. In the US, in Massachusetts General Hospital has a psycho-surgery program. In Mexico, I'm reading, psycho-surgery is used in a treatment of anorexia and the treatment of aggression. Venezuela, Swiss Centers performing psycho-surgeries, in Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, in the UK, they restarted psycho-surgery in 2009. So, obviously so barbaric and so middle-aged, lobotomy, that's what it is, ...

Tiffany: Aha.

Pierre: still performed in the so-called developed countries and, in addition, as you say, now more and more the lobotomy is performed chemically, but the reason as you say you create as you say you creat zombies. You deprive people from the most noble and the most important thing in them - this drive, their personality, the capacity to think, to choose to be you.

Tiffany: And the patients know that. They often say like the reason they stop taking their meds it's because it makes them feel like a zombie or like numb or flat, and so many of them smoke. I never discouraged anybody from smoking (Tiffany's laughing), even though their doctor doesn't like that. Well, if it helps you, if it brings on your stress, keep doing it. (Tiffany's laughing)

Pierre: Yeah. You know my mom was a psychiatric nurse as well, and I wasn't eating that often and I, one of the most striking thing I remember, it was like 2 decades ago, it was indeed the patients, the way they were walking in the hallways, in the corridors.

Tiffany: Hmm.

Pierre: You know, this baby, slow way like no energy...

Tiffany: Schizophrenic shuffle.

Pierre: drive, no energy.

Tiffany: Right.

Pierre: Like absent people and the way they were talking with this, it was difficult to remember.

Tiffany: Yeah, and there aren't any studies that, like I mean the people there on, the patients there on these anti-psychotic drugs, but there are also on other drugs, like blood pressure drugs and, you know, statins, yuck. There's no study on polypharmacy over years and years, and years and it's just... chemical brain damage.

Laura: It's criminal. And we have another caller coming in. So, thanks for calling, Tiffany, big hug.

Tiffany: All right.

Laura: Kisses.

Tiffany: Bye.

Laura: We'll, probably, see you next time.

Pierre: Ok. bye-bye, Tiffany.

Joe: Hi caller. What's your name and where're you calling from?


Joe: Hello?

Caller #6: Hello.

Joe: Hello! Are you're receiving us?

Caller #6: Yea, yea. Hi! I just wanted to mention about how I came...

Joe: Is it? We can't really hear you. Ralph?

Pierre: Maybe you can call again, if you can hear us.

Ralph: No. Do you hear me?

Joe: Yeah.

Ralph: Ah. Ok. I just called to let you know how I came to know about the psychiatric drugs.

Joe: Yup.

Ralph: Okay after 15 years back actually I'm having some strange problem: my ears get to become very hot, not physically, but internally I used to feel an intense heat, and my heart used to palpitate. So, I went to see a doctor. He basically reported me to eye doctor, ear doctors and heart doctors. Six months they did all the tasks, they could not find anything. So, they sent me to... he pretty much told us there is nothing he can do, so he's going to send me to a psychiatrist. So, he sent me there, and the psychiatrist told me that he can't do anything he don't know but he can try some different drugs. So, they tried for a little more than one and a half years all 6 different drugs and meanwhile now one of my friends said," Ok, maybe, since nothing is working, you try..." he told me about this Deepak Chopra guy, and he has some books. So, it was the first time I heard of him. So, I read his books, and he was talking about the meditation. The moment I started doing meditation, all my symptoms had literally vanished...

Joe: Wow!

Ralph: ...and then I stopped taking drugs...

Joe: Yeah.

Ralph: ...but I didn't said this to a psychiatrist, saying that I'm not taking drugs, but after probably 3 months I told him that I'm not reall taking drugs, but I was doing meditation, and everything was good. So, the psychiatrist told me that actually he heard a lot of people saying that, who does the meditation some of the symptoms like this disappear. So, he said, "Ok, you don't need to take the drugs." So, it's interesting that the psychiatrists think these people can't do anything. So, it's in their mind, so send you to a psychiatrist.

Joe: Yeah.

Ralph: I see this pattern even now.

Joe: For them is not profitable to suggest things like meditation or diet, or anything, because that doesn't involve giving you pills, and that doesn't make the pharmaceutical companies rich. So, they have an investment in not looking into alternative therapies, other than pills.

Pierre: And you can't solve the problem, because pills won't solve the root cause of the problems.

Joe: Yeah.

Pierre: So, it makes you a customer for life.

Niall: Yeah.

Ralph: That's true.

Niall: It also means that they won't get to be your savior, which is what they want.

Ralph: laughing.

Jason: I mean I always have a problem with people who don't get really mad at this. He's saying that he knew that people were having success with meditation, and he acted like he... he didn't give you the option to try it.

Ralph: Yeah.

Jason: Now, obviously, that's a bit disingenuous but why doesn't anybody see the inherent malevolence in that kind of behavior? That that person who knows that there is a solution and you're not finding a solution, he is not telling you, then you say, I found the solution on my own and he says, "Oh yeah, by the way, I had some other people who said that that worked so."

Laura: He didn't mention it?

Jason: And as a doctor, you know, he is morally obligated to help you.

Ralph: It's not about the morals anymore, it's about money.

Jason: You should hate this guy. You should hate this guy. I mean, seriously. This guy is evil. What he did was evil, you know. There is no other description.

Ralph: Yeah.

Joe: All right.

Ralph: Yeah.

Joe: Ralph, we've got another call coming in.

Ralph: Ok. Thank you. Bye.

Joe: Thanks for your call.

Laura: Kissy-kissy, Ralph.

Jason: Have a good night.

Ralph: Thanks. Bye.

Joe: Hi caller. What's your name and where're you calling from?

Caller#7: Hi guys. My name is Irene, and I'm calling from North America.

Joe: Hi Irene.

Irene: I wanted to say, Tiffany made a comment earlier on about other countries, and how they view mental illness. I've been living in North America now, for the last 3 years, but I am... I was born and raised in Cyprus. I guess everybody knows Cyprus nowadays...

Joe: Yeah.

Irene: the news. But anyway, I wanted to say that I remember: it was 1995, when I went to the USA for the first time to study psychology actually, but I remember watching TV one night and seeing this commercial about these medications that was given for people with social anxiety and depression. And I was totally shocked! At the time, I don't think I've ever heard before back in my country of anything like that, a pill that can help people like, I don't know, be more social or feel better. Like back home, if you had any of these problems, it was solved by socialization, by just meeting with your friends, and talk about it.

Joe: Hmm.

Irene: Maybe, a grandma would have a remedy, you know drink this kind of tea or things like that, but it was unheard of, for me, anyway.

Joe: Hmm.

Irene: And then later on, I had to study all these drugs myself at school. So yeah, I thought that was a very good comment that Tiffany made.

Joe: Yeah.

Pierre: What must have been new to you as well coming from Europe is to see advertising for any kind of prescription drug because I think in Europe...

Irene: Exactly. Yeah.

Pierre: ...they cannot advertise for drugs, because it's not a normal product. It's not normal business. We're talking about the health of human beings.

Joe: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah, but they advertise all those sweet things, I mean, candy bars and...

Jason: Sugars are drugs.

Laura: Yeah. Sugar is definitely a drug.

Jason: Every bread is essentially opium anyway.

Joe: Yeah but hang on I mean what Pierre is saying is true.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: They knew that tech 30 years ago that the government allowed pharmaceutical companies in the US to directly advertise to people, drugs to people you know "Hey, get Ritalin, maybe you..."

Laura: And did you notice how in these advertisements that they read through the list of side effects very quickly right at the end? You know...

Irene: Exactly.

Laura: "If you experience any of these side effects, consult your physician."

Pierre: It's kind of...

Irene: And really those side effects, they like seem horrible to me. It's better to have social anxiety or a little bit of arthritic pain than to actually experience the things they are taking.

Joe: And wanna kill yourself?

Laura: Yeah it'd be better to have schizophrenia.

Irene: Yeah.

Jason: There is something inherently wrong with the drugs. They calm you down and one of the side effects is psychosis. You might go on psychotic murder rampage after taking a drug that's supposed to calm you down. I mean, it's totally insane that the drug can actually do the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do. I mean, it's...

Joe (sarcastically): But they have all the drugs to stop the psychosis, so it's all right.

Niall: And by the way, we, the Pharmaceutical Company, are immune from prosecution.

Joe: Absolutely.

Laura: And because of the recently signed into law by Obama, legislation that relieves these pharmaceutical companies, and also, I think, there is also the GMOs,

Joe: Monsanto.

Laura: Monsanto. Yeah, you can't sue the pharmaceutical companies, and you can't sue Monsanto for destroying your health. So...

Irene: Exactly.

Laura: You're stuck!

Irene: It's all a conspiracy, I tell you.

Joe : Yeah!

Jason: Oh!

(many people talking at once)

Laura: Uh, oh! You better see a psychiatrist.

(Someone's laughing in the studio)

Pierre: How's your Freud Irene?

Irene: I just wanted to make one more comment, and it's like, it has to do with the preparation of students of psychology that will become psychologists. And having gone through the system and getting a degree in a Masters, it just seems that it's like so inappropriate, and so like they don't prepare people, at all...

Joe: Hmm.

Irene: of what you know is out there. You go for your practicum, for your clinical experience, and you're kind of like helpless after so much, so many years of schooling and so much money that you paid, you know.

Pierre: Is the Freudian theories still very present in those classes?

Irene: Excuse me?

Pierre: Is the Freudian...?

Irene: Freud? Oh, yes! Yes, of course! We hear all about his theories. (Irene's chuckling)

Jason: Yeah, I mean when I was in college, I took Psych 101, and the guy was just unabashed for it. He even looked like Freud as well. He was this old guy with a big white beard. He looked like he was imitating Freud entirely.

Irene: Yeah.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: And he was why I decided not to pursue psychology.

Laura: Well, we started with Freud, we can end with Freud.

Joe: Well we're not finished yet.

Laura: We're not?

Joe: No.

Irene: You guys, thank you very much.

Joe: Thanks for your call.

Irene: Great show!

Joe: Ok.

Irene: Thank you.

Laura: Kissey.

Pierre: Bye bye.

Jason: Oh, I wanted to make a point. She brought this thing back to where it was a while ago. I wanted to make this particular point and draw people's attention again to this book that I think they should all read, which is The Persuasion of Science of Influence by Cialdini. Why do they make laws so that you can't sue Monsanto? Why do they pass this legislation? Obviously because people want to. What you see in the US is something that Cialdini identified called social proof, which is where you make it look like a lot of people are doing this certain thing. And a lot of what's going on in the US is a lot of effort is put into making you think that people act and behave a certain way in America. And it's a constant droning propaganda about this. But the real truth that comes through when you see legislation like that is that obviously people really aren't acting that way. People are actually malcontents. They are not in contention with the system. They want to sue Monsanto. They want to sue pharmaceutical companies and they are trying to, and the government is passing laws to stop them from being able to do it, which should tell you something about what people really think and feel in the United States as opposed to what you're seeing presented in the media.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: That they are social proofing you. They are manipulating you by presenting you with the images of people, you know, going along, towing the line, doing all this different stuff, and it's not really the truth. Actually I think the majority of Americans are malcontents. They are maladjusted. That is why there are all these new disease categories. That is why there is all the...

Joe: That kind of goes back to the whole Bernays' thing right. Bernays... when Freud came up with this idea and Bernays took it, and the government liked it, of these uncontrollable dangers, urges lying just below the surface among the population that needed to be controlled. Bernays claimed that he could do that just by stimulating these inner violent desires and then saving them with consumer products. So it was all designed, it was in league with big business to get people to become consumers. So, the rationale was these people they could just turn into a violent crazy mob at any moment. We gotta have a release valve for these violent inner urges, that it's really bullshit at the end of the day. People don't have those violent urges, generally speaking. But they decided that was the case and they needed a release valve, and that they were going to release this by...release this energy, or whatever, via consumers by giving them things that will make them feel better, would make them you know consumer products, etc. But it was all obviously a ruse just to enrich big business and stuff, you know. And that didn't work because it's like saying that, you know someone who is depressed and well if you just go and buy this nice new dress and a nice new pair of shoes, you will feel better, and people buy it. People think:" Ok, I'm gonna go and buy myself something new so that I feel better." But for a whole generation of that you're gonna produce people who are fundamentally discontent because it's not addressing any of the real needs. And this is one thing they've never addressed, which is the real needs of people, how you really keep people happy in a really fundamental way. And then you know then today so that didn't work, and then you had the whole in the 60s, the whole kind of like change in psychiatry towards just letting it all out. You know, they had these group sessions where you just scream and beat pillows, do backflips and you know just let it all out, and that was manipulated as well. But, and today we have all of these prescription drugs for kids for all these different disorders that... which are basically normal human emotions and feelings. Sure, it's a function...

Laura: Normal reaction to what's going on in the world.

Joe: what's going on in society and people just, you see... there is... Anna Freud treated Marylyn Monroe. (pause) No, but she was an associate...a close associate of Anna Freud. Or he was an associate of Anna Freud. Anna Freud was on the scene you know. So she... and it shocked everybody when Marylyn Monroe committed suicide even though she was going through this fabulous new psychotherapy.

Jason: One of psychoanalysis epic failures.

Joe: Yeah, exactly. And it was very high profile. And Marylyn Monroe was married to, for a while, to Arthur Miller, the famous playwright, and he had something to say on it. I think it's relevant here so I'm just gonna play a clip of it here if it will work.

The audio recording begins, where Miller says, "My argument with so much psychoanalysis is the preconception that suffering is a mistake or sign of weakness, or a sign even of illness. When in fact, possibly the greatest truths we know have come out of peoples suffering. That the problem is not to undo suffering, or to wipe it off the face of the earth, but to make it inform our lives. Instead of trying to "cure" ourselves of it constantly and avoid it, and avoid anything but that lobotomized sense of what they call "happiness". There's too much of an attempt, it seems to me, to think in terms of controlling man, rather than freeing him, of defining him, rather than letting him go. And it's part of the whole ideology of this age, which is power-mad."

(audio recording stops)

Joe: Whatever, that was a bit distorted but you heard more or less what he was saying. I think this is a relevant point, which is that you know life experiences....and as...(Joe's trying to remember a name)...from Hawaii, from Hawaii...

Laura: Well the thing is...

Joe: Erica from Hawaii.

Laura: ...that the people perceive the world as being unpleasant, harsh, cruel, against them. They suffer as a result of this, and then, out of their suffering, you know, if they are allowed to express themselves, if they are allowed to communicate with one another, if they are allowed to follow their natural instincts, they find solutions to their suffering, they find solutions to their social problems that cause their suffering. But, when you have pathological individuals in power you know, who are enforcing this suffering on them, you know, for their own greed, for their domination issues, for you know whatever purposes, you know, to make money, to make wars, to do all the evil things that the power elite do, then the people have no opportunity to utilize their suffering in the way that is necessary. But, of course, what is going to ultimately happen is that the suffering is going to reach such a pitch that it is going to boil over and then it's going to be like the French revolution all over again, you know, it's going to be "Off with their heads !"

Joe: Hmm.

Laura: I mean and it's gonna be indiscriminate "off with their heads" because a lot of people who should not have lost their heads, did, during the French revolution, because of course, whenever something like that comes up then psychopaths move in once again as quickly as possible, change sides you know they are like chameleons, and then they use it to target their enemies. So, it's a really dangerous game that the power elite are playing. Their playing with their own lives, they're playing with our lives, they're playing with society. They sewing the wind and they're going to reap the whirlwind.

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: Yeah. This idea that Joe just mentioned where Bernays suggested that they actually stimulate these subconscious drives...

Joe: Hmm.

Niall:, in a way, that they could manage and control it. What we see it at the time it was for...

Joe: Consumerism.

Niall: ...the explosion of consumerism. The same thing is applied on a political level as well, and like Laura just said, it's gonna backfire.

Joe: It was opposed to psychopaths coming up with theories about normal human beings, about the psyche of normal human beings that did not apply whatsoever. That was completely bogus. And it was all a complete... it was a farce really. And I don't know whether they knew it or not? But, I mean, they used it. They used this understanding of the manipulation. I mean this whole idea of psychiatry... the founder of psychiatry in the US, Bernays, which spread it, his ideas were used since then and right up until today as essentially propaganda to manipulate the population of the US to go to war, to do everything to their detriment, and it is all founded in the idea that psychiatry as espoused by essentially psychopathic personalities.

Jason: I would like to point something out. Think about the enormity of the machine that is required to keep society the way it is, to maintain the status quo. There is something fundamentally wrong with the society that requires the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the ATF, the DEA, the LAPD, the local police, state police, Homeland Security, they need propaganda, FEMA. They need all of these institutions. They need all of these propaganda campaigns. Think about COINTELPRO, and what does COINTELPRO tell you about the society that it has to exist, that there are so many dissident organizations, even not necessarily dissident against the government, maybe dissidents against just some social thing, some corporate thing. There are so many of those groups in the country and in the world that the government has to maintain a massive army of infiltrators and agent provocateurs just to keep them under control. Think of the billions and billions of dollars that are spend on propaganda campaigns that are spent on wars to suppress insurgence. Think about all of the money that is spent on protecting you from terrorism. But did you ever stop to wonder, why are there even terrorists?!! What is wrong with the world that these things are necessary to maintain society? They are keeping together something that is going to fall apart.

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: And it is falling apart and it requires such an effort to keep together that you may want to stop and wonder is it even worth it?

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: I mean how crappy is society that it requires that much effort to maintain?

Joe: Hmm. Hard control in the society.

Niall: The society today envisioned the term that Bernays came up with, this is 1920's so, I think it was under president Coolidge, was happiness machines.

Joe: Hmm.

Niall: They were going to make everybody happy.

Joe: No, that was actually Hoover who took up Bernays' and all of these other idiots took up their idea of the consumer and using consumers to release these unconscious drives. He got a group of advertising executives and journalists together in 1928 and said, "You have taken over the job of creating desire and to transform people into constantly moving, happiness machines, machines which have become the key to economic progress." This is president Hoover.

Jason: The economic progress for who?!!!

Joe: For the big corporations.

Jason: Most people are poor. Are you rich? Do you own anything? Do you even own your home? Do you own your car? You don't have any wealth. There's no economic incentive for you.

Joe: That was the year before the Great Depression as well.

Jason: You know, I mean, serious!

Joe: ...constantly moving happiness machines.

Jason: There's no economic progress? There is economic devolution! You don't have anything.

Pierre: Happy machines and actually the happiness...

Jason: How are you happy?

Pierre: ...the happiness machine and its truth was the opposite to what human beings are. Not only machines...

Jason: You mean these machines that need antidepressants?

Pierre: No in the state of the society they're not happy either.

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: Well, it obviously hasn't worked.

Laura: And all of this is thanks to science!

Joe: Hmm.

Jason: Yes. Science is great, isn't it?

Joe: Yeah. So, on that note, I think we will end with a quote here, sent in by Grim, a quote from Samuel Goldwyn who said that "anyone who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have their head examined."

(everyone is laughing)

Joe: Ok, we've reached our time limit more or less, and we are going to call it a night there. Thanks to all our listeners and to all our callers. You're all wonderful and happy, happiness machines people!

Laura: Yeah.

Niall: We are happy consumers.

Joe: Yes. And we will be back next week at the same time.

Jason: Buy more stuff! Join the army!

Joe: We hope you can join us again.

Laura: Good night.

Pierre: Bye-bye.

(song " You lied, people died" starts to play)