SOTT Focus:

MindMatters: Gurdjieff, Death, and Help for the Dead with Joseph Azize

Harrison Koehli, Elan Martin, Adam Daniels
Sott.net
Sat, 26 Nov 2022 00:00 UTC

According to the vast "afterlife" literature, those who have passed on sometimes send signs, or even communicate through dreams or visions. But what if the support that many living claim to experience from their loved ones isn't unidirectional? Can one, in fact, help those who have passed to come to greater peace and understanding at their soul's new station in 'life'? For those of us familiar with the ideas, exercises and philosophy of G.I. Gurdjieff, it may come as some surprise, and perhaps delight, to learn that Gurdjieff sought to address such a question - how to give "help for the deceased" - particularly for those who were once close to us.

This week on MindMatters we are once again joined by inimitable Gurdjieffian scholar and Maronite Priest Joseph Azize whose paper "Gurdjieff's Help for the Deceased" delves into this subject. Join us as Joseph shares his research, insights and personal experience with some very little known exercises of Gurdjieff's - and explains not only the means from which one could honor and assist our loved ones (should they require it), 'essence to essence' as it were - but also to help grow and develop one's own self and Being.

Running Time: 01:42:02

Download: MP3 — 140 MB

Adam Daniels

Adam joined the editorial team in 2014 and is a co-host of MindMatters. His particular interests include philosophy, history, exercise science, and technology. He particularly dislikes Critical Race Theory and people who're so afraid of death that they prevent others from living. He also knows kung fu.

Harrison Koehli

Harrison Koehli co-hosts SOTT Radio Network's MindMatters, and is an editor for Red Pill Press. He has been interviewed on several North American radio shows about his writings on the study of ponerology. In addition to music and books, Harrison enjoys tobacco and bacon (often at the same time) and dislikes cell phones, vegetables, and fascists (commies too).

Elan Martin

Born and raised in New York City, Elan has been an editor for SOTT.net since 2014 and is a co-host for MindMatters. He enjoys seeing and sharing what's true about our profoundly and rapidly changing world.

Reader Comments

VooDoo6 · 2022-11-26T23:27:22Z

Right on, enjoyed the content & message of spiritual resonated truth that the mystic Gurdjieff passed on as a psychopomp of sorts.

The evolution of man is the evolution of his consciousness, and ‘consciousness’ cannot evolve unconsciously. The evolution of man is the evolution of his will, and ‘will‘ cannot evolve involuntarily. 🧠💡

Dwoods44 ·

VooDoo6 Well said.

· 2022-11-27T19:00:45Z

VooDoo6 · 2022-11-27T19:48:19Z

VooDoo6 Well said.

Just so you know in case you were not already aware. 4th picture on left. [Link]

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-28T04:54:22Z

VooDoo6 You listened to this discussion?

Or you're just the digital first responder?

danny esq · 2022-11-28T10:42:33Z

"Ye be gods" man wanting to be his own god, seems to of been around for a while.

VooDoo6 · 2022-11-28T16:25:37Z

VooDoo6 You listened to this discussion?

Or you're just the digital first responder?

Yea, knew some of the material & lots more about him that wasn’t discussed. I try to keep an open mind as possible until the bovine scat gets too think & the alarms sound off in my head.

I have some serious issues with mystic G. Gurdjieff. This picture 4th down on left. [Link]
He has some hypothesis/theories/quotes/beliefs that are true. I read some interesting background about his supposed mystic study of Demiurge-Zurvan-Zoroastrianism. I try not to throw the baby out with the bath water & use what’s useful as a Bruce Lee so aptly said. So I try to temper my processing & formulating my opinions with discernment of the truth but being vigilant about the lies as well.

Reading Gurdjieff‘s stories - hypothesis’s/theories as truthful is hard to swallow for me. Several KEY points I highly doubt are legit. He coined several terms such as “Three brained humans” regarding the triune brain that all modern homo sapiens have. It’s knowledge that’s been already known since Egypt. Gurdjieff claims that supernatural beings made this alteration on man. I have some serious issues with that premise. The other issue I’m still researching, but it’s not looking good for Gurdjieff. His “Kundabuffer” / Kontra Kundabuffer term regarding Satan’s Tail. [Link] - [Link] - [Link] -

“Kundabuffer” is a portmanteau word & term he coined & the deeper I get the more it’s doesn’t make intuitive/instinctual sense to me. The other BIG problem for me is the whole Beelzebub/ Beelzleboul which of course is associated with Lord Baal/Satan/Lucifer etc. The other part of the alleged story about Aleister Crowley & him doesn’t bode well for me.

I’m open to logical - rational discussions about his work, AFFILIATIONS, cryptic semiotic symbols, but not with people really who don’t read to process material. Glad you brought it up & hope to stimulate a fruitful discussion to that end.

I have enough issues with “AI“ autonomously changing what I already wrote & spellchecked that’s changing my words & without my consent.

Dwoods44 · 2022-11-29T14:27:15Z

VooDoo6 For me, my study of Gurdjieff was through Ouspensky. I read meetings with remarkable men and life is real only when I am, but not Beelzulbubs tales. He taught that you have to be able to play the evil and the good part in ballet for example, which is unique among conscious teachers.

In modern popular teachings, like Landmark, EST, and there was one in Israel that I have forgotten the name, they work by breaking down ego and personality, to remove illusions but they give no foundation for a spiritual development. Thanks for the link. I had never saw a young picture of Gurdjieff.

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-01T16:12:22Z

VooDoo6 [...]. This picture 4th down on left. [Link]
[...]
I couldn't find it! It wasn't labeled!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VooDoo6 · 2022-12-01T23:54:57Z

VooDoo6 [...]. This picture 4th down on left. [Link]
[...]
I couldn't find it! It wasn't labeled!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Solid copy yea I got 404 as well. - Try this one: [Link] or go to : austingurdjieff.society.weekly.com

The picture tells the whole story. The Kundabuffer is just another Zachariah Sitchinesque mythos imo. Of course that might change if there was ever any decent prima facia evidence.

rakarb · 2022-12-02T00:10:53Z

hmm. why not remove azigzagidiot from sott?

rakarb · 2022-11-27T01:44:01Z

no doubt, gurdjieff was greate at making soup on other ppls ideas 👍

what was his original ideas?

hobnob · 2022-11-30T02:24:35Z

rakarb Certainly, he mixes eastern ideas of non-attachment with Orthodox Christian meditation, in a way covering what does not belong to oneself while also growing in consciousness. This is done by remembering oneself, and he introduced concepts of mechanical thinking later taken up by psychology in different ways. What more is needed?

Typically the Christian answer seems to be to continue acting virtuously, aligning your will with God's will, and though you may be frequently tempted and even succumb in the end, by the grace of God everything works out. There's a little Tolkien in there, and I'm trying to distinguish Gurdjieff's ideas from that. Gurdjieff is more like Nietzsche, but replaces pride with self-growth.

rakarb · 2022-12-01T23:04:48Z

hobnyeba my perspective is that we are all alike from the beginning, and should be measured by the same standards in the end. (both gods and deviators).

what i dislike, is when ppl/gods deviate from that standard.

(well yes, i allready know i am a deviator).

hobnob · 2022-12-02T09:48:03Z

rakarb As Ibn Arabi said, God has infinite attributes, one of them being compassion. We already deviated in that we are finite, not God. Nonetheless we can act as God's image. Therefore we can have compassion for the dead.

How's that for mumbo-jumbo

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-04T04:11:47Z

hobnyeba Ooo, roast brakarbaque.

hobnob · 2022-12-04T10:32:30Z

azigzagidiot I'm sure it goes over rakarb's head, so I can hardly celebrate.

"Ah, yes yes," he is thinking, "but I was banned once so let's talk about how terrible everyone else is."

I say this not out of vengeance or resentment, but from an objective perspective. There's a mental block, sure, for non-English-speaking people, but it doesn't excuse whining constantly about not understanding Gurdjieff, or projecting his own problems on other users.

Dwoods44 · 2022-11-27T22:34:29Z

To study Gurdjieff is to study consciousness and the possibility of increasing consciousness. In this discussion with Joseph he is talking about the possibility of communicating and giving energy to individuals who have died, and this means that the discussion is about reality. If your reality is only what you can see, touch, hear, or sense, then Joseph’s possibility is imagination. If the reality Joseph speaks about is true, then your reality is imagination. What controls your perception of reality is your beliefs about what is possible? Western education promotes the idea that Religious teachings are imagination. The real problem is Western education is not education but instead an indoctrination into a materialist belief system.

The foundation for this exercise is what Joseph calls the “collective state”, a relative unity in intent for the 3 brains of man: the intellectual, the emotional, and the instinctive. In Ouspensky’s System development the instinctive is divided into instinctive and moving brains. The moving is concerned with all learned movement, speed and spatial relationships. The instinctive is the inborn responses to taste, smell, touch that determines danger or good for the body, as well as all the unseen physiology like the heart beating or digestion. As with any animal, the instinctive brain keeps you alive.

A further development of the 4 brain being psychology is that each brain is divided into an intellectual, emotional and moving/instinctive level. In the case of the moving brain, all movement is learned through the intellectual part. Once learned it is stored in the library of the moving part of the moving brain. The emotional is involved in the movement itself, the emotional thrill of riding a wave for a surfer. Once a movement, like riding a bike is learned and stored, riding a bike is simply playing the stored program, it becomes mechanical.

What is important in this knowledge, is that functioning simultaneously from the intellectual parts of the 4 brains brings one closer to self-remembering, to an activated higher brain. Then exercises are to move one from knowledge to being.

Also in the Ouspensky lineage is the recognition that each Teacher teaches based on their own brain center of gravity. Each individual has a dominant part of one of the 4 brains as part of their essence. Gurdjieff was an instinctive/moving Teacher, so his focus was exercises for movement and dance. Ouspensky was an intellectual Teacher who focused on words and ideas, many meetings. Jesus was probably an emotionally centered Teacher.

Gator · 2022-11-27T23:39:54Z

Dwoods44 ALL ideological constructs....

Gator · 2022-11-27T23:41:32Z

Dwoods44 "Jesus was probably an emotionally centered Teacher."

Or simply an ideology, with its incumbent dogmas...

danny esq · 2022-11-28T10:49:52Z

Gator You will all meet him one day. 100%

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-28T15:24:29Z

Dwoods44 To study Gurdjieff is to study consciousness and the possibility of increasing consciousness. In this discussion with Joseph he is talking about the possibility of communicating and giving energy to individuals who have died, and this means that the discussion is about reality. If your reality is only what you can see, touch, hear, or sense, then Joseph’s possibility is imagination. If the reality Joseph speaks about is true, then your reality is imagination. What controls your perception of reality is your beliefs about what is possible? Western education promotes the idea that Religious teachings are imagination. The real problem is Western education is not education but instead an indoctrination into a materialist belief system.

The foundation for this exercise is what Joseph calls the “collective state”, a relative unity in intent for the 3 brains of man: the intellectual, the emotional, and the instinctive. In Ouspensky’s System development the instinctive is divided into instinctive and moving brains. The moving is concerned with all learned movement, speed and spatial relationships. The instinctive is the inborn responses to taste, smell, touch that determines danger or good for the body, as well as all the unseen physiology like the heart beating or digestion. As with any animal, the instinctive brain keeps you alive.

A further development of the 4 brain being psychology is that each brain is divided into an intellectual, emotional and moving/instinctive level . In the case of the moving brain, all movement is learned through the intellectual part. Once learned it is stored in the library of the moving part of the moving brain. The emotional is involved in the movement itself, the emotional thrill of riding a wave for a surfer. Once a movement, like riding a bike is learned and stored, riding a bike is simply playing the stored program, it becomes mechanical.

What is important in this knowledge, is that functioning simultaneously from the intellectual parts of the 4 brains brings one closer to self-remembering, to an activated higher brain. Then exercises are to move one from knowledge to being.

Also in the Ouspensky lineage is the recognition that each Teacher teaches based on their own brain center of gravity. Each individual has a dominant part of one of the 4 brains as part of their essence. Gurdjieff was an instinctive/moving Teacher, so his focus was exercises for movement and dance. Ouspensky was an intellectual Teacher who focused on words and ideas, many meetings. Jesus was probably an emotionally centered Teacher.
Then there are two other functions which no system of ordinary psychology divides and understands in the right way—instinctive function and moving function. Instinctive refers to the inner work of the organism: digestion of food, beating of the heart, breathing—these are instinctive functions. To instinctive function belong also ordinary senses—sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, the feeling of cold and warmth, things like that; and this is all, really. Of outer movements, only simple reflexes belong to instinctive function, because more complicated reflexes belong to moving function. It is very easy to distinguish between instinctive and moving functions. We do not have to learn anything that belongs to instinctive function, we are born with the capacity to use all the instinctive functions. Moving functions, on the other hand, all have to be learned— a child learns to walk, to write and so on. There is a very great difference between the two functions, since there is nothing inherent in moving functions, and instinctive functions are all inherent.

So in self-observation it is necessary first of all to divide these four functions and to classify at once everything that you observe, saying, 'This is intellectual function', 'This is emotional function' and so on.

If you practise this observation for some time you may notice some strange things. For instance, you will find that what is really difficult in observing is that you forget about it. You start to observe, and your emotions connect with some kind of thought and you forget about self-observation.

Again, after some time, if you continue this effort to observe, which is a new function not used in the same way in ordinary life, you will notice another interesting thing—that generally you do not remember yourself. If you could be aware of yourself all the time, then you would be able to observe all the time, or in any case as long as you liked. But because you cannot remember yourself, you cannot concentrate; and this is why you will have to admit that you have no will. If you could remember yourself, you would have will and could do what you liked. But you cannot remember yourself, you cannot be aware of yourself and so you have no will. You may sometimes have will for a short time, but it turns to something else and you forget about it.

We call them centres: intellectual centre, emotional centre,moving centre and instinctive centre. They are quite independent. Each centre has itsown memory, its own imagination and its own will. Besides, moving centre also controls dreams,and not only dreams at night, but dreams in waking state—day-dreams. And since mostof our life passes either in real dreams or in day-dreams, study of the moving functionis most important. We think that the intellectual and emotional side is more important,but actually most of our life is controlled by instinctive and moving minds. So moving centre has many useful and many useless functions.

I want to tell you a little more about centres which will help you to understand the situation. Some centres are divided into two halves— positive and negative. This division is very clear in the intellectual and the instinctive centres. In the intellectualcentre it is 'yes' and 'no', affirmation and negation. All the work of the intellectualcentre consists of comparing. The division in the instinctive centre is quite plain:pleasure—pain. All instinctive life is governed by this. At a superficial glance it seemsthat the emotional centre also consists of two halves— pleasant and unpleasant emotions. But it is not really so. All our violent and depressing emotions and,generally, most of our mental suffering has the same character—it is unnatural, and ourorganism has no real centre for these negative emotions; they work with the help of an artificial centre. This artificial centre—a kind of swelling—is gradually created in us from early childhood, for a child grows surrounded by people with negative emotions and imitates them.

Q. Are instinctive emotions not negative?

A. They may be negative, but they are rightfully so. They are all useful. The negative half of the instinctive centre is a watchman warning us of danger. In the emotional centre negative emotions are very harmful.Then each half of a centre is divided into three parts: intellectual part, motional part and moving or mechanical part. The moving part of each centre is the most mechanical and the most often used. Generally we use only the mechanical parts of centres. Even the emotional parts are used only occasionally; as to the intellectual parts, they are very seldom used in ordinary conditions. This shows how we limit ourselves, how we use only a little part, the weakest part, of our organism.It is very easy to distinguish these three parts when we begin to observe ourselves.Mechanical parts do not need attention. Emotional parts need strong interest or identification, attention without effort or intention, for attention is drawn and kept by the attraction of the object itself. And in the intellectual parts you have to control your attention.When you get accustomed to control attention, you will see at once what I mean.

First the character of the action will show you which centre you are in, and then observation of attention will show you the part of centre. It is particularly important to observe the emotional parts and to study the things that attract and keep the attention, because they produce imagination Study of attention is a very important part of self-study, and if you begin to observe this division of centres into parts, in addition to the division of centres themselves, it will give you the possibility of coming to smaller details and will help you to study attention.

They can all work separately, but certainly if one could control the intellectual parts of all centres and make them work together, that would be the way to higher centres. Intellectual parts will not make up a centre by themselves, but their combined work will produce better work than they can do separately..Negative emotions are created from material taken from the instinctive centre. This material legitimatelybelongs to the instinctive centre and is wrongly borrowed from it. We arein a very strange state, because positive emotions do not belong to our ordinary emotional centre but to the higher emotional centre, and negative emotions do not belong to the ordinary emotional centre but exist in anartificial centre. The emotional centre borrows material from the instinc-tive, and with the negative half of the instinctive centre and the help of imagination and identification, it creates negative emotions. Destroying them is a very difficult work; but you must realize that as long as negative emotions exist no development is possible, because development means development of all there is in man. Negative emotions cannot develop... Energy can be distracted from the right places and put in the wrong places by negative emotion. As long as one cannot control negative emotions one cannot control anything else as regards instinctive centre. There is only one way of saving energy [struggle with/non-expression of negative emotions] and many ways of wasting it.

Azize mentions coming to a collected state as the first step, and that in order to send energy we have to actually have force/energy ourselves. He speculates that it may be "Hanbledzoïn[, which] is nothing else than the 'blood' of the Kesdjan body of the being". Further, that this energy has a sort of intelligence of its own.

Dwoods44 · 2022-11-29T14:35:14Z

azigzagidiot Thank you for the quotes. Can you link it?

Dwoods44 · 2022-11-29T14:53:23Z

Gator I don't think ideological construct is the right term. It could be called a psychological construct that tries to define the human mechanism, not the soul, in terms of its working parts. In so doing it is defining a path to waking up that is resonant to you or not. In so doing, it is only knowledge, and becoming a repeater of the knowledge means nothing. As you have noted, presence in the moment is the way.

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-30T15:03:56Z

Dwoods44 Thank you for the quotes. Can you link it?

..

The Fourth Way

Dwoods44 · 2022-12-01T13:53:04Z

azigzagidiot Yes, I figured the Fourth Way; but could you give a page reference. Thanks.

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-02T01:41:42Z

Dwoods44 That's the book , worth many readings!11 pdf a search

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-04T02:49:28Z

Dwoods44 Yes, I figured the Fourth Way; but could you give a page reference. Thanks.

Pg. 10 Then there are...

Pg. 11 So in self-observation...

Pg. 11 If you practise...

Pg. 11 Again, after some...

Pg. 15 We call them...

Pg. 68 I want to...

Pg. 68 Q. Are instinctive emotions not negative?

A. They may be...

Pg. 69 First the character...

Pg. 71 They can all,,,

From a .pdf.

Dwoods44 · 2022-12-05T18:52:54Z

azigzagidiot Thank you.

Gator · 2022-11-27T23:38:06Z

These guys would NOT be the life of any party. I can only 'imagine' what any women would find attractive in them.....

just sayin....

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-28T04:56:22Z

Gator Likely they'd ... "ideological contruct"... themselves differently to entertain women at a party.

Gator ·

azigzagidiot

· 2022-11-28T19:25:54Z

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-29T05:34:34Z

Gator So, what's your issue with systems of ideas?

Other than imagining that you're a woman and assessing if you'd be attracted to men, do you have a systematic way of wooing them you want to explain so as to properly show up these gents?

danny esq · 2022-11-28T10:48:58Z

"Ye be gods" man wanting to be his own god, seems to of been around for a while. Contacting the dead is prohibited also, but it won't serve as a warning to many.

Horrible topic, who seriously wants to get involved with it?

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-29T05:33:33Z

danny esq "Ye be gods" man wanting to be his own god, seems to of been around for a while. Contacting the dead is prohibited also, but it won't serve as a warning to many.

Where? Leviticus? Deuteronomy? Isaiah?

Horrible topic, who seriously wants to get involved with it?

WWJD? Consult the Rabbi?

hobnob · 2022-11-30T07:18:15Z

danny esq If you have compassion for the dead (or the living), it could be useful if all they were lacking were love, or belief in the afterlife, or something. There is not much communication going on, so it is more like an emotional prayer than anything.

On the other hand, yours is a fair warning, because whoever it is could be sticking around and suffering through their own hell, or living and suffering in real-time, for their own reasons. So for strangers it would be less advisable. Moreover a warning was given that it drains energy. But then that means it is a giving, not contact as usually understood.

And when I tried it out, I immediately changed it into a different exercise: "I am for... Christ." I felt a shiver but could be the weather

danny esq · 2022-12-01T10:47:29Z

azigzagidiot Leviticus 19:31, Deuteronomy 18:9-14, Isaiah 8:19, Leviticus 20:6, Psalm 115:17, 1 John 4:1, Leviticus 20:27, Matthew 22:32.....there are many more warnings but who now heeds them?

This place seems to indirectly gloat about being specifically aligned with evil practices.

My bad for pointing that out eh.

danny esq ·

danny esq Gen 3.5

· 2022-12-01T11:02:42Z

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-01T16:10:23Z

danny esq Gen 3.5

You're claiming to know what's "evil practice" above.

rakarb · 2022-12-01T23:57:03Z

hobnyeba mumbo-jumbo live might be a better place for you? [Link]

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-02T01:28:27Z

hobnyeba 👍 👍 for here and above comment.

I think if someone somehow were to reach the accomplishment of being in the body of Christ that has a power or force attendant to it. I'd also second your point that this exercise is not towards unguided dabbling -- it's directed to ancestors or particular persons for a specific purpose or aim, I think with a mind on free will. Apparently it changed your microclimate.

hobnob · 2022-12-02T09:31:46Z

rakarb You are after my pride. But to be successful, you must learn what it is I'm proud of.

azigzagidiot Thank you for making it clearer

danny esq · 2022-12-02T13:31:26Z

azigzagidiot Yes and claiming the bible states the same, as the warnings are not coming from me on my own understanding, they are clearly available to all God's children (those who read it, understand it and accept it's a valid genuine warning).

A better question might then be, how many warnings do you actually need, before you acknowledge.

The Bible simply warns multiple times that trying to communicate with the dead is PROHIBITED. The penalty is severe and thus my fear of God and my trust in him protects me.

That is enough to convince me anyway, that firstly these articles are coming from a perspective that DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE the authority of the creator, because people that have no love of him or fear him will casually go beyond that warning.

My opinion is no guide, but by quoting the verses that warn the reader means the challenge of rebellion is directed straight at God, as I'm not quoting myself, for it was God who told me, "I gave freely, so give." That includes warnings, because they save anyone who has ears to hear.

Just saying.

danny esq · 2022-12-02T13:44:12Z

hobnyeba Your account of what you mean will be known by YHWH and Yeshua :

"The good man brings good things out of his good store of treasure, and the evil man brings evil things out of his evil store of treasure. But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”…

Another clear warning, that is not beyond the understanding or comprehension of a child who has knowledge of how to speak.

hobnob · 2022-12-03T09:41:59Z

danny esq Your quote warns, or rather informs us, that our sins or shortcomings will be obvious, even if not to us. We will have to account for everything, which sounds like it could be fun, freeing, revelatory, or tedious. If there is an account of sins, then forgiveness seems almost assured, since it is you learning from the accounting. It'd be more worrying if you could quote a passage saying there will be no accounting. Hopefully, there is more than the comprehension of a child for someone reading this.

But back to the topic there is a passage from Life Beyond the Veil, which can apply to most people:

It is whimsical to us to see him still clinging to his old pride, when we know all about him, and his past and present status, which latter is rather low, and all the time he is trying to think he is hiding his thoughts from us. With such their instructors have to exercise much patience, which is also very good training for them.

danny esq · 2022-12-03T12:35:53Z

Your quote warns, or rather informs us, that our sins or shortcomings will be obvious, even if not to us. We will have to account for everything, which sounds like it could be fun, freeing, revelatory, or tedious. If there is an account of sins, then forgiveness seems almost assured, since it is you learning from the accounting. It'd be more worrying if you could quote a passage saying there will be no accounting. Hopefully, there is more than the comprehension of a child for someone reading this.

One will heed a warning, the other will ignore it (philosophies and conjecture about how they wish to perceive the warning other than heeding it.)

This is helpful for others to read scripture and confirm what scripture is telling or revealing, it's really not as complicated as your trying to address.

As you were....

Still on topic (esoteric is "hidden" and to hide something is to covert something).

"I gave freely, so give"

Not difficult to read or understand IMHO.

If your fumbling about in the esoteric darkness never knowing anything, why not step into the light where things can be easily seen AND understood?

The dead have nothing more to give.

Murderers don't mourn their victims either.

danny esq · 2022-12-03T12:47:00Z

"The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists... KEEP BASHING THE DEAD white males, and the live ones, and the females too, until the social construct known as 'the white race' is destroyed - not 'deconstructed' but destroyed."

Noel Ignatiev

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-04T02:41:06Z

danny esq [Link]

Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits , neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits , and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.”

Leviticus 20:27 “A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit , or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.”

Deuteronomy 18:9-14 9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. /10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, /11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits , or a wizard, or a necromancer. /12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. /13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. /14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Isaiah 8:19 “And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits , and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?”

Psalm 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

John 4:1 “ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God : because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

Matthew 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

You suppose a familiar spirit is someone you once knew? I don't think so. Can you explain the relevence of these quotes about familiar spirits to the topic discussed here?

At least in the new testament, the dead is often the dead in spirit. In Psalms, it can be inferred that the dead or those who go down into silence are in sheol, but once the New Covenant is in place, what is the relevance???

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-04T03:11:04Z

You were

danny esq [...] ~~quoting~~ citing the verses[...]

and it smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

Just saying.

"The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists... KEEP BASHING THE DEAD white males, and the live ones, and the females too, until the social construct known as 'the white race' is destroyed - not 'deconstructed' but destroyed."

Is this your dead hero? Why are you communicating for this dead person? He is probably on top of you from Sheol.

hobnob · 2022-12-04T10:50:35Z

danny esq

If your fumbling about in the esoteric darkness never knowing anything, why not step into the light where things can be easily seen AND understood?

The dead are in the light (unless they're stuck), and they are the ones that have something to give. This material world has little light to offer in comparison.

Murderers don't mourn their victims either.

I didn't get it. It is not over with death.

Be well good sir.

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-28T15:30:21Z

Nice thematic touch at 11:48 --seems someone opens their mic to echo the point. The control in delivery makes for well paced playback at 2x in the MindMatters applet here. Thanks for this presentation, the main topic was unknown to me, and the mentions of J.G. Bennett point towards other lines to investigate.

Shangri · 2022-11-28T18:47:21Z

however thought-provoking it is to read ornate ideas on "otherworldliness", what facinates me more...is the original and extraordinary experiences that occur throughout our daily lives, proving that answers dont require the assistance of multifarious prominent auxillaries.

danny esq · 2022-11-28T21:50:12Z

Shangri

The present!! (The gift of life)

Shangri · 2022-11-29T21:57:13Z

danny esq and all it requires, is to be opened.

or, as in Sufism, the only Veil, is that of our own making,

danny esq · 2022-12-02T13:36:37Z

Shangri Yes.

Apocalypse is also a rendering of Revelation (God will reveal EVERYTHING so nothing can be hidden or evade the truth)

Revelation is the unveiling.

Dwoods44 · 2022-11-29T13:56:45Z

In my view, the purpose of the Gurdjieff work is to awaken ones own consciousness, so I don’t see that this exercise is integral to that endeavor. It also seems to me to be sending away your energy into a black hole, rather than sending your energy into those who are without a compass in this life, is questionable. What is important in my view regarding blood relatives? You have to forgive your parents of all negative impacts on your life which is to love. You have to see that their choices and decisions were based on their own experiences and life, and without a spiritual direction many choices led away from consciousness. You have to understand that in some unknown way you chose these parents and your life. You have to understand that your parents have their own path of consciousness that they are on. Can we through this exercise, heal some of the damage they have done to themselves, or pay off some karmic debt for ourselves or for them? I don’t know and sometimes we need to wait and see what door opens for direction.

Towards the end of the discussion, Joseph talked about not being involved in the madness of the day, and that some of the members bring the discussion into the activities. In my view, this explains exactly why you have to be involved, because you have to teach how to be detached, and you need to teach how the current media and government is manipulating consciousness. You need to see the prison to escape from it. The work is practical. If you show how the manipulation works in work language, the students can separate from the manipulation. What does it mean? It means you learn to see how language is used to frame reality, you learn to see emotional hooks, you learn to see your own beliefs and delusions, you free yourself from the lies.

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-01T15:33:01Z

Dwoods44 In my view, the purpose of the Gurdjieff work is to awaken ones own consciousness, [...]

I think you could say it is intended to be a scientific study of consciousness. One of the arguments is that consciousness may be continuous, or something more fundamental to us than our material lives. It is also a practical system of how to devleop that in ourselves, but study comes first.

You have to understand that in some unknown way you chose these parents and your life.

I do not think we can reach that conclusion -- how could we verify that? It'd be equally plausible that our lines arise as an accident of heredity.

You have to understand that your parents have their own path of consciousness that they are on. Can we through this exercise, heal some of the damage they have done to themselves, or pay off some karmic debt for ourselves or for them? I don’t know and sometimes we need to wait and see what door opens for direction[...]

I think the system would say we are dependent on help from outside at times. The possibility is raised that the lines of communication are two-way, and there is lore and evidence from other traditions something can continue past death. Furthermore, that there may be interaction between the realm of the living and the dead or that the seperation between them is only apparent.

Dwoods44 · 2022-12-02T02:30:22Z

azigzagidiot I agree that we are dependent on help from outside, the third force, and for higher consciousness it depends on help from those who have attained a higher consciousness.

There are many ideas that can only be verified by experiencing higher states, and the verification can mean nothing to anyone else. The idea that we choose our parents and our lives is not a System idea, but for myself it explains what I dealt with, the changes in direction over the years, and the overall direction and results. I don't discount what Joseph is proposing, just that I don't see it as something of value for my work at this moment.

In my view, the experience of self-remembering and the experience of the transformation of suffering are the key to understanding Gurdjieff. They are the light of following the system.

azigzagidiot · 2022-12-02T03:24:45Z

Dwoods44 I agree with you it is likely there are many ideas that can only be verified by experience of higher states, but it is possible someone else would believe you and that could mean something. I don't know if it is or not, and I've thought your thought is plausible, too -- I've read it from others, and I think it fits with ideas of consciousness's designs, choice, and karma or life lessons, as you'd mentioned.

There is discussion of transformation in Chapter IX (and also XIV), for what that's worth. Seemingly always a practical part is the functioning of the machine (diagram in IX). Have you read that book? Or what would you recommend? Thank you.

Dwoods44 · 2022-12-02T04:43:03Z

azigzagidiot In my view, The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution gives a concise definition of the human mechanism, and In Search of the Miraculous gives a clear understanding of what Gurdjieff taught. The Fourth Way book is something I used to research ideas, as well as his other meeting books like a Further Record.

I am not reading about the Fourth Way at this time, and yes that book contains much. In one of the meeting books, a student said "I know I am a machine..." and O interrupted him and said "Who told you that? You are not the machine." Many students in their self-observation saw only their mechanical attributes which led to them identifying with what they saw. This is the weakness of the system. You are what observes not what is observed. This is why having moments of self-remembering and transformation of suffering is necessary.

I look for books that feed me emotionally like the Gospel of Thomas, the sufi poets like Hafiz and Rumi, and David R Hawkins trilogy beginning with Power vs Force.

danny esq · 2022-12-03T13:34:46Z

"

Dwoods44 In my view, the purpose of the Gurdjieff work is to awaken ones own consciousness, so I don’t see that this exercise is integral to that endeavor. It also seems to me to be sending away your energy into a black hole, rather than sending your energy into those who are without a compass in this life, is questionable"

You had me upto that point, but no further.

Jamso · 2022-11-29T20:06:54Z

Those who know do not speak, and those who speak do not know.

PS I do not claim to 'know'.

azigzagidiot · 2022-11-30T16:04:13Z

Jamso From the 5,000-Character Classic?

The way that can be told is not the eternal way.

..

Those who know the way do not brag . Those who brag do not know the way.

..

And those who can do, do teach; one would hope.

VooDoo6 · 2022-11-30T15:51:50Z

One can promise actions, but not feelings, for the latter are involuntary. He who promises to lover forever, hate forever or promise to be faithful to some one forever is promising something that is not in his/her power.

The strength of a person’s spirit would then be measured by how much ‘TRUTH’ he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.

Synchronicity is ever present reality to those who have eyes that can see.

danny esq · 2022-12-03T13:22:52Z

VooDoo6 With God anything is possible, he gives that power to whoever he likes.

Also, we have examples of people (men and women) who successfully commit to loving someone (because loving, showing, giving, receiving, in love is mutual) all till only death parts the union.

Those who force their leadership, they have a commitment to their god, whether it is their love of hate manifested in hating those who can show love for everyone (even mistakingly or foolishly loving enemies who are harsh to them like in the case of Stockholm syndrome, even slaves can choose to stay with their slave master. .....if that loving commitment is evidenced by word AND deed).

Relation Ship....

Friend Ship.....

When two or more choose to aboard and mutually navigate their journey.

That shows me people have always had the capability to love something or someone forever and always will. After all it is in these examples that loving is the lightest load you can carry on your journey, it also shows us the example cannother be harmed by interference, outside interference (as 2 becomes 1 , a Union, in the consumation of marriage)

danny esq · 2022-12-03T13:28:12Z

VooDoo6 With God anything is possible, he gives that power to whoever he likes.

Also, we have examples of people (men and women) who successfully commit to loving someone (because loving, showing, giving, receiving, in love is mutual) all till only death parts the union.

Those who force their leadership, they have a commitment to their god, whether it is their love of hate manifested in hating those who can show love for everyone (even mistakingly or foolishly loving enemies who are harsh to them like in the case of Stockholm syndrome, even slaves can choose to stay with their slave master. .....if that loving commitment is evidenced by word AND deed). Look at how the elite show love for THEMSELVES, very committed.

Relation Ship....

Friend Ship.....

When two or more choose to aboard and mutually navigate their journey.

That shows me people have always had the capability to love something or someone forever and always will. After all it is in these examples that loving is the lightest load you can carry on your journey, it also shows us the example cannother be harmed by interference, outside interference (as 2 becomes 1 , a Union, in the consumation of marriage)

Dwoods44 · 2022-12-03T14:01:13Z

During the discussion the law of 3 was brought up in relation to the Trinity in Christianity. According to Gurdjieff all events or actions involve 3 forces and it is the 3rd force that determines the result of the action. You can think of this on any scale. How to understand it in relation to the Gurdjieff work?

First we illustrate what this means. Let’s say your exercise is to vacuum the house. What are the forces? First your aim or duty to vacuum the house. Second the resistance of your human body to effort, work, perhaps pain or noise, and of course dirt, leaves or hair. What is the third force? Resentment that you are always the one to have to do this. Thoughts that question what’s the big deal about a little dirt. Jealousy that someone else gets to sips a cappuccino while you are working. Anger that this is interrupting your reading or game. Self-pity about your worthlessness. What is the outcome with these as third forces? Negative emotion and vacuuming with less effectiveness.

What kind of third force can you bring that will change the result and raise your consciousness? We have to think about the 4 brains or centers. We are using the moving and instinctive centers to vacuum, how can we bring the intellectual and especially the emotional center to the exercise of vacuuming? For sweeping the floor, you could have some music that you connect to emotionally. For vacuuming, that doesn’t work, so it has to be some inner process, like a prayer, or a visualization, or focus on serving others, but something that brings you emotional energy. What is the result? What is needed? Intention and attention. Then it is an experiment.

Gurdjieff: Everything in the world obeys the Law of Three, everything existing came into being in accordance with this law. Combinations of positive and negative principles can produce new results, different from the first and second, only if a third force comes in.

rakarb · 2022-12-08T00:06:38Z

hmm. after reading up on gurdjieffs writings one more time. i can not say that i have discovered anything he did ever say/do was any other than cooking soup on other ppls intellectual property.

rakarb · 2022-12-08T00:20:30Z

[Link]

Lovely prayer palestine. I thank you deeply for your kinship.

LindaMay

Israel hasn't become a loose cannon. It always was from inception. The history of the Zionists is terrorist loose cannons who constantly lie and...

bbrebozo

A very good older comment from that I had archived. Talking about patterns and the human psyche: The human brain has two functions: First, it's a...

LindaMay

HAh... Thousand thanks, guys

palestine

I wonder if there is a possession is going on. Not sure if i believe in "spells", but would think theoretically, there is probably a steep price...

agni

SOTT Focus:

MindMatters: Gurdjieff, Death, and Help for the Dead with Joseph Azize

Reader Comments

Latest News

Picture of the Day

Quote of the Day

Recent Comments

Quantum Quirk