O:H header
Does "extinction rebellion" ring a bell? It should because this "rebellion" is not against - but for - the extinction of humanity. Sound crazy? That's because it is.

We've just come through International Workers' Day, a holiday with leftist origins meant to celebrate the work of the working class, the unsung heroes who keep society functioning despite the constant threat of exploitation.

Yet it seems the left has moved away from protecting the little guy toward oppression from the top down under the globalist guise of 'saving the planet'. Environmentalism is now the most important issue, stopping climate change its new rallying cry, and the oppression of the lower classes in order to reach environmental goals - no matter how misguided - is the order of the day.

Whether its AOC or Bill Maher expressing anti-natalist sentements, French President Macron trying to impose austerity measures against the people's wishes to save the environment, George Monbiot telling everyone they need to become vegan and stop air travel (and overthrow capitalism) or a little autistic girl, child of the Quorn Greta Thunberg, telling everyone it's too late and leading a rabid movement into panicked actions, the Anti-Human agenda has worked its way into the mainstream.

Working towards a better life, "abundance for all", is now considered a bad thing - we need less abundance, less freedom, less wealth, more austerity and more restraint. As Monbiot cries out - "Bring on the recession!"

Join us for a lively discussion on the origins and character of this anti-human sentiment and how it shapes our current thinking and discourse.

Running Time: 01:00:02

Download: MP3 - 54.5 MB

Here's the transcript of the show:

Tiffany: Hello and welcome to Objective: Health. I'm your host Tiffany and joining me in the studio today we have Erica, Doug and Elliot.


Tiffany: Today we're going to talk about this weird and creepy anti-human, anti-life, anti-natal streak that's running through certain movements that are popular right now like the vegan movement, the environmentalist movement, the eco-warriors and whatnot. I've been following this and I'm sure you all have been following this too if you're at all familiar with all of the vegan YouTubers and all of the articles that are out now about climate change and about how we have 12 years left or we're going to be at a tipping point and there's nothing we can do and we're all going to die because of global warming and the rise of sea levels, and what's her name, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, otherwise known as the AOC and her new green deal which is so ridiculous.

All of this stuff has been in the news and you can't help but notice that 1) these people think that the sky is falling. There's always been these movements saying "We only have this much time left" or "We only have that much time left" and that much time passes and all of their predictions are proved to be false. But it still happening.

Doug: It actually seems like there's a recurring pattern. "The world's going to end. We're going to have complete climate breakdown in 10 years" and then 10 years goes by and they're like, "Oh yeah, in 10 years we're going to have complete climate breakdown!" And then another 10 years goes by and they're like, "Oh, it's only five more years! Five more years until complete climate breakdown!" I remember I recently saw a headline from 1989 saying, "UN predicts disaster if global warming not checked". This was in 1989 and you see in the text there it says "Entire nations will be wiped off the face of the earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000." That was almost 20 years ago at this point! I haven't seen a single nation wiped off the face of the earth at this point.

Tiffany: Nor have I seen a single polar bear wiped off of an iceberg. {laughter} That was predicted. So I think if the polar bears survive I think we're going to be okay, at least for a while. Who knows what is going to happen? But that seems to be a recurrent theme. Also the fact that so many of these radical or extremist environmentalists are vegans - I say the radical ones because there are some decent people in all movements who just have concern about humanity and the planet. That's understandable. But of course lots of these advocacy groups get radicalized.

So we're not the only people that notice that a lot of these people seem to hate their fellow human beings. Apparently this was something that was noticed in animal rights advocates and vegans too. I'm going to read something from an article that was posted on Vox Vegan. I don't see who the author is but this is from 2012. This guys says that - and I'm quoting here - "I've encountered a number of vegans who appear to have a decidedly misanthropic view. It's impossible to know whether they were this way inclined prior to becoming vegan or not. Statements like, "I love animals but I can't stand people" or "Animals are innocent but humans are evil" are not unfamiliar. We sometimes hear sentiments expressed by vegans and others along the lines of human beings being nothing but a cancer upon the earth and that it would be better if the human species became extinct."

And then there's this quote. This is the author that's quoting some other vegan from the internet. He says that this is somewhat typical. So this person is saying "I feel very angry whenever I witness something horrific, unnecessary and cruel. I feel sad and upset. I admit at times that I have hated humans, including myself and everyone I know and I wish that they would vanish from this planet. I believe this feeling comes from hopelessness. Sometimes it seems that we humans are just a force of destruction, pain and misery."

So they don't sound like happy people and as this conversation goes on today, we'll see that a lot of these people are depressed and from my research, it just seems like these movements, vegans or environmentalists are populated by a bunch of depressives who all get together and make themselves feel better by knowing that there's other people who believe that the sky is falling too.

Another thing that I've noticed with these people is that they put ideas before people. They have this utopian vision of what the world should be like in their heads but they have no idea about how this vision is going to play out and how it's going to affect ordinary people, what the consequences might be, what any unforeseen or unintended consequences that might come about because of their vision. A lot of the time they have no idea of the complexities of what they're talking about, like climate change. These people who are making these pronouncements like the AOC - and later we'll talk about Greta Thunberg, poster child of the environmentalist movement - they have no idea really what they're talking about. They're not climate scientists of course and it's just ridiculous. So anybody else have any comments on that? {laughter}

Doug: I think that this is all by design. It's like you say, nobody really has a good understanding of what is really going on. How many times have we heard, "The debate is closed. There is no debate on climate change. Anthropogenic global warming is real. All scientists agree except for maybe a few fringe crazies." The IPPC puts out these statements all the time. The media grabs it and runs with it. So you almost can't really blame the people who are acting on this information because they've been primed with it for so long. It's drilled into them.

When all these protests are happening right now with kids leaving school to protest climate change, their parents and teachers are encouraging them! "Yeah, get out there and do it! Our generation sucks because we didn't stop this. You guys have to do something!" This is the curriculum now. This is what students are being taught. The fact that all nuance has completely left the table and all they're getting is this indoctrination with this information, I can't blame these people for just believing what they've been told all their life. For these kids it has been literally, their whole life. Their entire existence has been "Oh yes, we humans are terrible. We're destroying the planet and you just by existing are harming the planet and nature and all the animals that you love. Your existence is terrible."

Tiffany: All of your animal friends. It's extremely emotionally driven. There's not much logic to it and the fact that it's aimed at younger people is just a testament to how leftist ideologies are pushed upon younger people so you can change their thinking for the rest of their lives with veganism and sex education and all these new programs that leftists are pushing. You want to get them while they're young and impressionable and their emotions are in flux and they have no idea of history and the fact that this kind of thing has been done repeatedly at least since the 1970s. That's where this "we need to reduce the population" thing started big time back in the 1970s with Paul Ehrlich.

So it's driven by emotion but it's also driven by a strong sense of wanting to control people and what they do, what they think, where they live, if they can drive a car, what they can eat, whether or not they can or should have children. So they just want to control people. Even in one of the IPPC reports they talk about how lifestyles are of particular interest to the IPPC. One of the quotes from one of the researchers is "People don't just need to change their behaviour. They need to change themselves."

So they're just talking about total control here of other human beings that they don't care about anyway.

Doug: You know what's interesting? You know who else you to say that he didn't care about wars, he just wanted to change how people lived? That was Adolf Hitler.

Tiffany: Oh!

Doug: In fact we do have a short clip, just the beginning - Damian maybe you can pull that up - talking about the parallels between the green movement and Nazism. It's the beginning of the Rupert Darwall one.

Interviewer: Virtually all of the themes of the modern environmental movement are "prefigured" in the Nazis' support of wind power in the 1930s. Explain this.

Rupert Darwall: If you look at what the Nazis were doing in the 1930s in their environmental policies, virtually every theme you see in the modern environmental movement, the Nazis were doing. So it happens to be historical fact that Nazis were the first political party in the world to have a wind power program. It also happens to be a fact that they were against meat eating and they considered that it was terribly wasteful that so much grain went to feed livestock rather than to make bread. It's also the case that they had the equivalent of fuel economy rules because they had the most expensive gasoline in Europe and so they basically had very few people driving cars.

So virtually everything that you see - I think actually the most extraordinary thing that I came across was this quote from Adolf Hitler where he told an aide once, "I'm not interested in politics. I'm interested in changing people's lifestyles." Well that's extraordinarily contemporary. That is what the modern environmental movement is all about. It's about changing people's lifestyles.

Tiffany: Wow. So look at how the Nazi regime turned out, all the millions and millions of people who died because of Hitler's policies.

Doug: Yeah.

Elliot: It's interesting. There's also another well known environmental activist. I'm not quite sure how to pronounce his name. I think it George Monbiot.

Doug: Monbiot.

Elliot: Monbiot, okay. He actually came out right forth and said that the aim is to have tighter controls. It's not about more freedom. It's about less freedom for people. He basically explicitly said, "We want to be able to control what people are doing!" You just have to read between the lines so to speak. So it makes you wonder what are the underlying intentions of the people who jump onto these movements? I'm sure that there are many people who do have genuine concerns about the environment and I think that that's fair enough. That's understandable. But it seems as though some of the people who've also made their way into that movement, I would imagine actually are more likely seeking to control how people act, how they behave, for whatever reason.

Doug: Well yeah. I think you're right. I think your average environmentalist person - at this point I think it's pretty mainstream to have concern for the environment and to be caught up in the CO2 nonsense - but I think the roots of this are actually globalist. Although it has the appearance of being a grassroots thing where the average citizen is rising up and protesting, saying "Let's make our leaders who are so resistant to change, let's force them to change", I think that when you start digging even a little bit, this is really coming from the top down.

There's this idea that the world does need to be more controlled. People need to be controlled. Their behaviour needs to be controlled. The way they live, how much they consume, what they consume, how free they are to move, all those things are controlled. The ultimate UN Agenda 21 - just to put on my tinfoil hat for a little while - all of their mandates, everything that they're trying to push forward is all about tight control of the population.

Whether they give a shit about the environment or not, it's hard to say. I would guess probably not, that really the environment is just the guise put over these tighter controls being put on. Look at the Green New Deal. That is straight out of Agenda 21. "You're not going to be able to fly anymore. Cars are going to be very rare. Everybody's going to have to take these public transit systems and rail systems and everybody's going to have to be vegan. We're going to stop animal farming." So it's all about this tighter and tighter and tighter control over the populace.

Elliot: And you can see that because the people who are getting hit with it are the average working class individual. It's not the elites. They are still jet setting across the world, living their lavish lifestyles with their mansions and god knows what else they partake in, but they're not the ones who these activists are even targeting.

Doug: Yeah.

Elliot: Now there are some protests that do claim to be against the massive corporations, but actually a lot of this activism seems directly pointed at average people. If you look at the tiny, tiny contribution that people as a whole contribute towards things like pollution in comparison with the 1%, the 10% let's say, who are actually doing the fracking, who are doing the oil drilling. These massive corporations owned by the billionaires, the real elites are the ones who are contributing to this stuff a lot more than the average person is.

Doug: Yeah.

Elliot: And yet we're the ones who are being targeted.

Doug: Absolutely.

Elliot: It really makes you have to think - what is the intention behind this?

Doug: Well the perfect example of that - there's a couple of perfect examples actually, but one of the perfect examples of that is this "extinction rebellion" protest group who are hard core environmentalists and, like you were saying Elliot, they are disrupting the average person. All of their protests are targeting average people, messing up their day. That's clearly by design.

I believe it was Emma Thompson, actress...

Tiffany: Yes.

Doug: I assume she's quite wealthy, flew in from LA or something like that, from the US, to go to this extinction rebellion protest! Well extinction rebellion's telling you you can't fly anymore and you're going to fly in for it?! There was another example...

Tiffany: Well it's okay for her to fly in but they blocked bridges in five different cities in the UK and tied up traffic and people couldn't get to work and emergency services couldn't get through. Emma Thompson is not affected by that.

Doug: Right.

Elliot: And you think of the taxi drivers as well, the guys who get paid by the minute per journey and they're having to wait six hours to get past some protests. They lose a whole day's work.

Tiffany: Or another example is AOC and her blockage of Amazon coming to New York City and all of the jobs that that could have created. You can say what you want about Amazon and their terrible working conditions but people need work. They need to be able to make money to support their families and she says, "Enough! You can't have Amazon!"

Doug: Yeah, because she doesn't like rich people.

Tiffany: It's always, always, always, always ideas before people, especially working class people.

Doug: Yup.

Tiffany: So do we want to talk about this weird little girl? {laughter}

Doug: Greta?

Tiffany: Greta Thunberg. It looks like Greta Thunberg but she's from Sweden and she's 16 years old and again, about these movements being populated by a bunch of depressed people. she admits herself that she has multiple mental health issues. She has Asperger's, OCD, selective mutism, depression. She's had eating disorders which she said has stunted her growth. But of course she's a vegan. {laughter} Her mother is a world class opera singer and her dad is an actor so you would think, okay maybe she has some kind of genetic predisposition to be overly dramatic, but you look at her presentation and she comes across as very flat affect, very monotone voice. She just seems like a really weird person.

So she got her mother to stop flying. She's a world class opera singer I guess. So she got her to stop taking planes anywhere. She got her dad to turn vegan. Again, this little 16-year-old girl is controlling her whole family because she's strongly for an environmental movement. That went out past her family and now she's influencing all these kids all over the world to go out into the streets every Friday and protest environmental issues.

So she says things like, "I want you to panic and feel the fear that I feel every day."

Doug: Yeah. What seems to come across to me, is that it's quite apparent that this is a disturbed little girl.

Tiffany: Yeah.

Doug: It's kind of like they're lionizing her and really elevating what she's doing when really, it's like you mentioned, the mental illness thing, do you really want to elevate somebody? I don't want to knock on people who have mental problems or anything like that. Again, this does come from how she has been educated. This is what has been pushed on her since the day she was born so you can't totally blame her for this. Any of this information where it says, "The human race is doomed and we're destroying the planet and just by existing you are destroying the planet", different kids are going to be affected at different levels on that. Your average kid is probably going to be like, "Oh, that's a bummer but I still want to go play with my trucks." Whereas other kids are going to be really strongly affected by this. I would say particularly kids who have a tendency towards some kind of mental issues in some way.

But to lionize her and put her as the figurehead of this movement, it's interesting in the upper right there, that image, the comparison between her and the poster child for Nazism back in Adolf Hitler's day is funny and somehow appropriate, the braids and everything.

Tiffany: Well she said that when she was younger she started reading about how the climate is pretty much screwed and we only have a certain number of years to live and she got so depressed that she stopped talking and she stopped eating and she didn't go to school for an entire year. So it's bad enough that this is a teenager who is so-called leading a movement, kind of like the Parkland shooting kids who all of a sudden had all this backing behind them to start talking about gun control and all that. But she's mentally ill and she's being pushed to the forefront of this movement and that is just not right.

Doug: Although it's somehow quite symbolically appropriate.

Tiffany: You kind of have to be - I don't want to use the word nut bucket but...{laughter}

Doug; But you just did.

Tiffany: You have to be kind of a nut bucket because one thing that's disturbing about this, as far as environmentalism and climate change and veganism and don't eat meat, is that it's all based on a lie. None of that stuff is true. The earth is not warming. In fact it's getting cooler. Human beings aren't responsible for global warming and putting out all this extra CO2. That's cyclical. Meat is better for you than plants and having a plant-based diet. So it's all a bunch of BS and it's being pushed with all this emotion and all this need for control and it's all a lie.

Even if those things were true, it's still not right to push your beliefs onto somebody else. People should be able to live their lives the way they want to, for the most part, as long as other people aren't hurt by it.

Doug: That's why it's so insidious though. And they do this with the vaccine thing too; your choices of how you want to live your life affect everybody else, which is true to an extent. But at the same time, like you said, people should be able to live their life the way that they want to live it. But when you're indoctrinated with "these people are making choices that are going to destroy the planet", it's not surprising that people are going to drop that whole, "Well you can live your life the way you want to live" and start getting more militant and start saying, "No! You have to stop!"

It's the same with the vaccine thing. "No! You have to get a vaccine. You're putting everybody else in danger."

Tiffany: Well I don't know if this is correct or not. It's about the Overton window. Elliot, maybe you're an expert in this since you're last name's Overton. {laughter} But, you introduce some really radical idea and just push it and push it and push it so that it becomes a part of the public consciousness and you let it sit and fester for a while and then you move the window over and introduce something even more drastic. For now there's all this "We're going to die" and "Don't eat meat" and "Don't have children". At what point is it going to go from, "Okay, it's your choice to do these things or not do these things" to "Okay, we're going to enforce this through fines, violence or any other way that people force people to do things"?

Elliot: And it's a way to get people to compromise as well and people will think that they are being reasonable. Essentially, with that Overton window concept, when they introduce these new, radically new ideas which are a bit crazy, people see that and they think "Wow! That is so far from the norm right now. That's all the way over there so we're not going to go there. That's too radical." But then they push that back, so to speak, and they introduce this new concept and then people, as a compromise, will say, "No! We're not going to go that far but we'll do this! We'll meet you in the middle." Then you've got it gradually happening through the generations.

Erica: Well you see that with the environmental movement that even started with Earth Day in 1969. So you have people that are concerned about the planet and recycling and being energy efficient and all these things. In the beginning it seems reasonable. You should stop using so much plastic. You should cook your own food and don't buy packaged food. And then as you guys are saying, it keeps moving to more and more extremes. What started out as maybe a good thing that people could realistic engage in - like when you think about the 70s and carpooling. Everyone gets together to go into the city. Then it becomes this fear mongering, scaring, "The sky is falling" approach and all of a sudden those little things that maybe people were trying to do to have a less negative effect on the planet, are thrown out the window.

Doug: Maybe we should play that George Monbiot clip. It was on the Twitter video I sent you Damian. It's a perfect example of that because he's talking about how the environmental things that we've been doing up until now are not enough and then he ends off on a real high note. So we'll just play that.

George Monbiot: What we have to do is a big structural political, economic stuff. What we've been told to do is change your cotton buds and all these pathetic micro consumerist bollocks which just isn't going to get us anywhere. There are one or two things you can do as a consumer which do make change; switch to a plant-based diet. That's one. Big, big change because animal farming has this massive environmental impact. Another one, stop flying. But beyond that, actually everything we have to do is change the system. We have to overthrow this system which is eating the planet with perpetual growth. Since when was GDP a sensible measure of human welfare? And yet everything that governments want to do is to try to boost GDP.

Now people like the OECD or the World Bank will say, "We're not asking for a lot of growth, just three percent a year." That means doubling in 24 years. We're bursting through all the environmental boundaries and screwing the planet already. You want to double it?! Double all that? Double it again? Keep doubling it? It's madness! We've got to find a better way of measuring human welfare than perpetual growth. We've got to start ramping down all fossil fuel production and leave fossil fuels in the ground and at the same time - and this is a nice bit of it - it turns out that through massive rewilding, ecological restoration, you can draw down a lot of the carbon dioxide we've already produced. Huge amounts, allowing the forests to come back, the marshes to come back, the seafloor to recover from trawling and stuff. They draw down carbon dioxide and can take us a long way towards stopping climate breakdown at the same time as stopping ecological breakdown. There's time but we can't do it by just pissing around at the margins of the problem. We've got to go straight to the heart of capitalism and overthrow it.

Doug: Yaaaayyyy. Overthrow capitalism!

Elliot: Where have I heard that one before? {laughter}

Tiffany: Are we in communist Russia? Where they wanted to...

Elliot: It sounds a bit like a communist...

Tiffany: ...means of production on the farms and if the farmers didn't want to give up their farms they killed them and then food production went down and people starved by the millions and died? Is that what George Monbiot wants?

Doug: That's exactly what he wants. If he's really on-board with the depopulation agenda, which he very well could be because he's an influencer. He's a journalist for The Guardian by the way, if anybody doesn't know George Monbiot. He's terrible, just awful.

A couple of things: one or two out of everything he said there, I thought 'that's a point that I've heard before and actually maybe even made before that maybe GDP is not the best measure of human progress'. There are small things in there where I thought 'there's a point to that and maybe that's something that could be explored' but the whole base of what he's talking about is just so completely off. Even right from the very beginning, "The two things that you can do on a personal level to save the world is eat a plant-based diet and not fly." {laughter} Oh god! Like, honestly!

And even the thing he's talking about, "If we do all these rewilding things", there are many examples of rewilding that's gone on that have been absolutely disastrous by the way. But he refuses to look at the fact that if you actually have pasture-raised livestock and still eat the meat that that has that same rewilding effect, that that can bring marshes back, bring prairies back. There is such a thing as sustainable farming that he just ignores and would rather go to these mass factory farmed plants - soy, corn, wheat.

Erica: Schmeat.

Doug: And schmeat. I'm sure he's a schmeat fan.

Tiffany: Beware of people who want to change the world. They're all nuts.

Doug: Well they just don't know what they're doing.

Tiffany: They don't know what they're doing and it always turns out badly. Always. Maybe we can talk about vegans for a little while and how it's not just the environmentalists who hate people. That quote that I was reading at the beginning of the show was written by an animal rights vegan.

You hear these vegans talking about how animals are our friends. I have house pets you know. They're my friends I suppose.

Doug: Why don't you eat them?

Tiffany: We have a nice relationship. But a cow is not my friend. The average animal living out in the wild is not my friend. I don't even know these animals. I don't know their names or anything about them. They're not my friends. They'll kill me if they have half a chance. They're not my friends but a lot of these vegans talk about how they hate humans but another thing that's coming out more and more on YouTube is that these vegans are talking about how people shouldn't have children and they're pushing vasectomies. Vegan Gains is this guy who's a popular YouTuber and he talked about having a vasectomy on his podcast and Freelee the banana girl and her ex-boyfriend Durianrider advocate that sort of thing. I think Durianrider actually did have a vasectomy.

What did you say about vasectomy cakes? {laughing}

Erica: Oh, in the newspaper the other day there was an ad for vasectomy cakes. At first I didn't really understand what that meant, whether the cake was made by the parts {laughter}...

Doug: Oh my god!

Erica: But apparently it's an up and coming industry that you can now have a party and have a special cake made to celebrate your vasectomy.

Doug: I don't get it! {laughter}

Erica: It's a celebration. It's a celebration of not-life.

Tiffany: There are lots of articles coming out now and people on video saying how the world would be a better place - I guess the more moderate view is if people had fewer children. They just say fewer. They don't say necessarily how few. But birth rates all over the world are dropping anyway. This isn't the era where people have seven, nine or however many children. People have a couple of kids maybe. It's not like people have huge families anymore. So when they say "fewer" I think, is fewer "none"?

Some people go so far as to say that you shouldn't have any children, just stop having children, get a vasectomy, don't have kids, not having kids is the best thing you can do for the planet. People should not be allowed to breed or if they do they need to have a licence or maybe we should do something like China's one child policy and that way we could all save the planet.

Elliot: Well I'll be honest. I don't have much of a problem with these types getting vasectomies. {laughter} I think it's probably quite good that they're not replicating.

Doug: Yeah.

Elliot: Because it doesn't seem that they have much of a brain.

Doug: Totally true. What do they call it? Anti-natalism.

Tiffany: Yeah.

Doug: This idea that it's your duty - it just comes back to this whole anti-human agenda that's being pushed. The thing is that these ideas are becoming more and more mainstream as well.

Tiffany: They're all over the newspapers.

Doug: Yeah! That it's actually a good thing if you don't have any kids, that having kids is inherently selfish and that you're just helping to destroy the planet.

Erica: And what about the effect on the family, the people who already do have children? Maybe they read this and they've got a 2 and a 5-year-old and all of a sudden they're feeling these crazy feelings of guilt.

Doug: And the kids themselves too. Look at this Greta Thunberg. I'm sure that at least part of her existential angst is probably the fact that she exists in a world where she believes the planet hates her.

Tiffany: There's a movement called the Volunteer Human Extinction Movement.

Doug: Oh my god!

Tiffany: They say that humanity will eventually become extinct if everyone chooses to stop breeding. So far I haven't heard of anybody calling for killing the people who are already alive, except for the abortionists but they are still saying voluntarily choose - who would choose that of course - who would choose to not have sex and even accidentally get pregnant, choosing to breed, then eventually all the humans will die off and the world will be much, much better off without human beings because we're the cause of so much pollution and suffering and whatever.

Doug: Where does that even come from, this idea that the planet would be a better place without human beings on it? That planet is more important than the humans?

Tiffany: Well there's no basis of comparison because no one has ever not been on the earth to say "Oh, this is better than when we had billions of people here!" {laughter}

Elliot: It mildly resembles the religious indoctrination that human beings are born in sin and are forever having to try to redeem themselves because we are so poorly and horribly, innately evil, aren't we? It's almost like it's a semi kind of religious idea. There's many comparisons between these individuals or this kind of ideology and then fundamentalist religion. It's very similar. I did have a point about them, but I lost it. {laughter} I will come back to it.

Doug: Come back to it, yeah.

Tiffany: Well even without all of this 'don't have kids' and 'have a vasectomy' stuff, even amongst the vegans I've noticed there are all these ex-vegan videos on and the current vegans make a video and they're talking about how the person was never truly a vegan, Freelee the Banana Girl has won out. She says, "Just because you get sick or you have some acne..." basically she's saying "Just because you suffer some health consequences doesn't mean that you should stop being vegan. The animals are more important."

Doug: Yeah.

Tiffany: So basically animals are more important than even your own health. So not only do some of these radical vegans want the population to go down to close to zero just to save all the animals, but they're willing to sacrifice even their own selves and their own health! That in itself is anti-life and anti-human. I'm going to die for this belief! They might not feel that on a conscious level but that's what a lot of these people are doing.

Elliot: And when you hear them say things like that it almost makes you wonder. They're meant to belong to the human race so you'd think that they'd kind of be fighting in our corner. {laughter} But it seems as though they're fundamentally at odds with human beings and it seems to be a common thing among many of the fundamentalist ones, the ones who are really radical about it. It really makes you wonder at a more basic, really fundamental level, are they actually part of the same species because they seem somewhat separate in terms of what is underlying. Yeah, we look the same but in terms of the fundamental substance which kind of makes them, the non-material aspect of that, it makes you wonder are they in some way different in that humanity as a whole is actually separate from them. They are more actually perhaps related to rocks. {laughter}

Tiffany: Or maybe there's a real reason why they identify so strongly with animals. Maybe they don't have whatever it is that makes humans humans, that spark of life that separates us from the animal kingdom. Maybe they're missing that and they really do feel like they're a part of that group instead of a part of humans.

Elliot: I think for some of the recovering ones anyway, the people who do get drawn into this kind of mindset and are only there temporarily and actually come out of it - because there are some of those - I tend to think that perhaps they've been damaged. Perhaps they've been traumatized. Perhaps they were brought up in an environment which was genuinely unwelcoming, which gave them an underlying belief that actually the world is out to get them, that people cannot be trusted, but rather than this being objectively true actually it's more of perhaps a trauma, something like that, that this hatred for humanity is more of distrust, more of an inability to connect with other human beings because of one's own I guess traumatic experiences and messed up emotions and that actually these people do have some chance to work through that and come out of this.

But that doesn't seem to be the case for all of them. In fact I'd say only a portion of them because it doesn't seem like some of them are redeemable in any way! {laughter}

Tiffany: I think the more redeemable ones are the ones who do it for health reasons. They think that veganism is healthy and it's going to get them back on the right track. But then you have this other half that is really in it for the animal rights part of it and protecting animals and saving the planet. Maybe they're the ones who are more easily swayed by whole religious aspect of it and have a harder time coming out of it.

Doug: It really does seem to be a religion. Elliot you were just saying that it does seem to have these fundamentalist, religious overtones. It's almost like a Gaia religion I guess. Alex Jones I think talks about this. I don't actually watch him but I've heard him talking about this before. But it seems like they worship the planet or nature or something along those lines. Humans are this kind of evil by-product that has lost control, almost like the fallen angel of Lucifer or something and it's now threatening their god. I don't know. Maybe I'm off-base here. If you asked, most of them would be atheist I'm sure. A lot of these liberal vegan or environmentalists or both, a lot of them would say, "Oh yes, I'm atheist. I don't have a religion." But it's like this is their religion. That's what it seems like to me.

Tiffany: So maybe they just want to go back to a time or go forward to a time where there are maybe a few million people on the earth and everybody can live in the woods and act like an animal and rut without consequence. It seems like that's what a lot of these people want to do. It's hard to really put your finger on it because it just seems so nuts.

Doug: Yeah.

Tiffany: I think it's unmistakable in the fact that they want the vast majority of people to be gone or they consider the vast majority of people as pests, as a plague.

Erica: Going back to what you were saying Doug, about Agenda 21 and the tinfoil hat, for years we've heard it, and population growth and they're trying to kill us all and that scary Henny Penny thing and now you see people coming right out in the mainstream and saying it. Shall we play that video by Bill Maher?

Doug: Yeah, we could do that.

Erica: Because it's just bizarro.

Doug: Yeah, it is. Here we go.

Bill Maher: ...refrain from bashing millennials for their safe spaces, man buns and avocado toast and give them credit for doing something right - having less sex than other generations and so less babies, which is good for the planet! {applause} Every week it seems there is a new study about how little sex millennials are having. But instead of asking why America's young people are having less sex, let's just be glad they are. Earth Day is coming up and I can't think of a better gift to our planet than pumping out fewer humans to destroy it.

People talk a lot about bringing the cloth bag to the market and driving electric but the great under-discussed factor in the climate crisis is there are just too many of us and we use too much shit. Climate deniers like to say, "There's no population problem! Just look out the window of an airplane. It's nothing but empty space down there." But it's not about space. It's about resources. Humans are already using 1.7 times...

Doug: Okay, I don't think we need anymore of that. I hate Bill Maher. He's such an arrogant ass. I cannot stand him.

Tiffany: And all those people applauding and laughing like that's funny. It's not funny!

Elliot: I'd really like to see how many resource he uses....

Doug: Yeah!

Elliot: Compared to the average person; the gall to come out and say that in public. I think these ideas are really dangerous. They are really dangerous because where do you put the brakes on that? It's like you were saying earlier, we're talking about these kind of policies. At the moment they might be fairly benign. At the moment. Recycle your plastic or basic things like that. But who is going to put the brakes on that? How do you know where to draw the line? When are they going to start coming in and saying, "Right, okay. You are only allowed to have one baby. You had two babies so we're taking this one off you and we're going to put it in the bin." You know? In the nicest way possible, these things are really a possibility in the future. Who's going to regulate?

Doug: I think that that is a possibility. We were talking about the Overton window before. These ideas are now becoming more and more mainstream, this idea that it's good for the planet to not have any babies, etc. etc. To come back to the whole idea of the top down control, that this is actually coming from a higher level, moving its way downward. You've got guys like Bill Maher. You've got guys like Monbiot. When it comes right down to it, the things that they are encouraging and saying is actually the things that won't necessarily affect them as rich guys at the top.

You mentioned close to the top of the show Elliot, that it's the lower classes, the working class that will really be affected by these things. The people who are making their billions don't actually care about that kind of stuff because they know that they will probably continue to have access to all the things that they want to have access to. But when you start doing things like mandatory one child policies or no child policies or something like that - at one point George Monbiot actually calls out for having worse living conditions, wants more poverty. He actually said at one point, "Bring on the recession."

I have a quote from him. He actually described environmentalism as "a campaign not for abundance but for austerity, not for more freedom but less. It is a campaign not just against other people but against ourselves."

Tiffany: I've noticed that too. It seems to be a call for austerity. I noticed this when the whole tiny house movement started up big some years ago. They're cute and everything but it is not enough space. But I guess if you're living in a world where consumerism is bad and you're not supposed to have a lot of kids, for these people a tiny house makes perfect sense because it has a lower carbon footprint or whatever.

I think a lot of this is directed at westerners and the western lifestyle where we have cars, abundant food.

Erica: Airplanes.

Tiffany: Yeah, airplanes, shelter and all this. It seems like they want us to be a third world country. They want the entire world to be a third world planet and then you have the elites at the top controlling everything. I think ultimately that is their goal.

Doug: And I think a lot of this comes from that middle class guilt because if you look at these extinction rebellion protests, it's white middle class people. You don't see a lot of working class people saying, "Yes, austerity. Yes, poverty." Those aren't the people who are cheering this on. So I think that a lot of this maybe comes from that middle class white guilt kind of thing.

The left used to say, "Overthrow capitalism." The idea was that they were going to elevate this working class, the workers. "Workers unite. The underclasses are being oppressed and we need to help them." Now it seems like it's the complete opposite. They loathe that class. They want to keep them down. They hate them for their materialism, the useless eaters more or less. That seems to be what they've taken on. They no longer want to get rid of the human misery of oppression. They want to increase human misery. It's crazy!

Tiffany: Crazy it is. So do we have anything else to add?

Doug: Don't be vegan. {laughter}

Tiffany: Don't be a radical vegan. Don't be a radical environmentalist. It's okay to recycle and everything but I'm not giving up my car.

Doug: Yeah.

Tiffany: There was a video. We don't have to play it because it pretty much says everything we said, but a video on Fast Company about how not having children or having fewer children is the best thing that you can do for your planet. In that video they were talking about how not having children is better than not flying, not eating meat, giving up your home. All of those things combined. You didn't have to play it Damian. {laughter} It's okay.

Doug: I think it was on auto play.

Tiffany: So not having children is absolutely the best thing you can do versus all that other non-consumerist stuff. So I say - since I don't have kids - I'm free to eat all the meat that I want. I'm free to drive a car and I'm free to take some long plane trips.

Doug: Sounds fair to me.

Tiffany: But seriously, just beware of people who want to change the world, people who envision a utopia because there's absolutely no way that everyone is going to agree that that is utopia for them also. I don't know what else to say. These people are crazy.

Elliot: And they're working off of faulty assumptions and lies. Their whole framework is based on lies. We care about the environment on this show. I care about fellow human beings. I just don't buy into the lies which are perpetuated about human man made global warming. So people who do buy that and listen to what we've said, can't understand it. But the fundamental point is that here on SOTT Objective: Health, we don't buy into the lies about human beings being responsible for or causing climate change and that actually we're going to go into the extinction if we don't start recycling plastic. Things are a bit more nuanced than that!

Doug: Absolutely. Well said.

Erica: I think the nuance is what's important and all of these videos and Bill Maher and all these newspaper ads and everything, it's just that fear-mongering and then people feel they have to do something and then they act out of desperation and then, "Oh I just won't have kids." You know what I mean? It's not really a viable solution. It just creates more madness when it's passed around like that.

Tiffany: Yeah. None of it is life-affirming in the least.

Doug: No, it's the opposite. Just take a look at Greta Thunberg and really think about whether you want to be following her.

Tiffany: Yeah. Imagine if all the children in the world looked like that?

Doug: Children of the quorn.

Tiffany: Not just her physical looks or anything...

Doug: No, no, no.

Tiffany: There's a heaviness about her. She's actually quite small. I mean she has the weight of the world on her shoulders and it's all for nothing.

Erica: Children of the Quorn.

Tiffany: Yeah. I guess that is our show for today. We'll be back next week with another show. If you enjoyed our discussion today, remember to hit the like and the subscribe and have a great day and we'll see you soon.