newsreal moriartys libya benghazi
On this NewsReal, Joe & Niall interview James & JoAnne Moriarty, a couple who witnessed the mayhem unleashed on Libya in 2011, and who have since dedicated their lives to speaking out about what's really happening to that country.

Libya has been in the news recently because of a huge push by forces loyal to General Khalifa Haftar's Libyan National Army to retake Tripoli - a development that could end 8 years of hell for the Libyan people.

The Moriartys had much to tell us on that front, but they also wanted to share vital new information on the 'Battle of Benghazi', the attack on 9/11/12 at two classified US compounds that killed US Ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens, and three other Americans.


Running Time: 01:32:21

Download: MP3 - 84.6 MB


[Interview conducted April 9th, 2019]

Video of a Benghazi perpetrator confessing to the murder of Ambassador Stevens on TV news

Excerpt of the Moriartys' joint interview with a Benghazi eyewitness in 2014

Visit the Moriartys' website: libyanwarthetruth.com

Support the Moriartys via Patreon

Our previous interviews with the Moriartys: Here's the transcript of the show:

Niall: After eight long years in which the country literally went to hell, the so-called civil war in Libya could, just maybe, be reaching its conclusion. The Libyan people have lent their support to the anti-terrorist cleansing operation taking place in and around Tripoli conducted by tribal militias allied with General Khalifa Haftar's Libyan National Army. In this episode of NewsReal we interview we interview an American couple who witnessed firsthand the so-called "Libyan Revolution" in 2011.

Frequent visitors to Libya, James and JoAnne Moriarty were working in its oil industry when NATO forces allied with tens of thousands of hired jihadists invaded the country. Invited by an international NGO to participate in a fact-finding mission, the Moriartys traveled throughout Libya observing and documenting events and witnessing numerous unspeakable atrocities. After barely escaping Libya with their lives when the so-called rebels placed them on a kill list and imprisoned them at a torture centre, the Moriartys finally made it back to the US with bodies and evidence intact only to discover that their troubles had barely begun.

With a network of contacts in Libya and having built a strong rapport with Libyan tribal and community leaders, the Moriartys have been one of the few sources of information about what has actually taken place inside that country. They have, on numerous occasions, offered to share what they know with US government and intelligence officials but have been met with systematic stonewalling, false promises and outright harassment.

The Moriartys have always maintained that the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi on September 11, 2012 was an inside job undertaken, perhaps, for the primary purpose of eliminating the US ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens. Investigation into what took place there remains murky to this day, underscored by the fact that this facility was not even a consulate to begin with and that an even more classified compound nearby was also attacked that night.

Officially, the attack on the Benghazi diplomatic post and a nearby CIA compound called the Annex which resulted in the deaths of four Americans, was carried out by Islam extremists who were upset at the online publication of a video which insulted the prophet Muhammed. Stevens, as you may recall, officially died by accident from smoke inhalation after the diplomatic compound was set on fire. But there is clearly much more to the battle of Benghazi than has ever been officially acknowledged. Ostensibly, Stevens was tasked with overseeing the retrieval and destruction of tens of thousands of man-pad, shoulder-held, surface-to-air missile launchers pilfered from Libyan arsenals during the chaos of the NATO bombardment. Coincidentally, Glen Doherty, one of the CIA contractors killed at the Annex that night after he flew in from Tripoli to defend American diplomatic staff from the attack, had been speaking with US ABC News up to a year before the attack about his own involvement in this arms retrieval mission.

Whether or not these men were doing what they say they were doing, it has since been established by Seymour Hersh and others, that at the same time, other US and western intelligence operatives and contractors were actively working at a cross-purpose facilitating the sale and transfer of such weapons both into Libya and then on to Syria where weapons and so-called rebels began massing in mid-to-late 2011. Now we don't know what these men were reporting to their superiors in the State Department and the CIA, but it's not difficult to imagine that conflicting orders about the proliferation of weapons would produce a clash of interests in a country awash with militias and weapons.

Whether or not there was premeditation on the part of their superiors, there was certainly premeditation on the part of the attackers that night, a fact that the Obama administration lied about for a whole month afterwards, insisting that a protest had simply spilled over from Egypt and thus implying that Steven and Doherty, along with Sean Smith and Tyrone Woods were collateral damage from blowback.

The Benghazi attack was rapidly politicized in the US with multiple congressional hearings seeking to expose Hillary Clinton's and the Obama government's knowledge of what took place and of course, getting nowhere. The reason for this is likely because they really didn't know much more than what everyone else was told about it through intelligence leaks to the media. Since then the media has made very heavy weather of casting any light on the murky events in Benghazi.

A little ray of light almost got through the information blockade when in 2013, CBS's 60 Minutes interviewed a British mercenary whose employer, British security company Blue Mountain, was contracted with providing security for US diplomats in Benghazi but he was quickly discredited, his real name outed. CBS retracted his eyewitness account and he was forced to disappear.

If they were doing what they're supposed to be doing, journalist would by now have contacted the Moriartys or at least listened to their interviews on independent media. Back in 2014 James and JoAnne were interviewed on The Power Hour by Joyce Riley. On it, they introduced the Libyan eyewitness who lived across the street from the so-called consulate in Benghazi and who provided valuable information about what really took place that night. You will find a link in the description below to longer versions of the interview, but for our purposes here, I've extracted what I found to be his most important statements on the Benghazi attack. Have a listen.

Hakkim: I lived across the street, okay? So I can see the activities going on. I think it was a centre of operations because occasionally I saw American operatives - what do you call them? Agents, American agents - going out from the building and driving Libyan cars with Libyan plates. So they were in the cars. They were not clarifying themselves.

Interviewer: Okay, there were no US embassy plates on their vehicles then?

Hakkim: No, no, no, no. Absolutely not. They were using Libyan plates. After the first light attack on the embassy, two cars came rushing out from inside the embassy which had American agents on them. They evacuated the embassy but I don't know why they left Chris Stevens behind. It was illogical to me. I was in the supermarket next to my house. They called me from home. My family called me from home and they told me that something is happening to the American compound. I came rushing. It was only a one minute drive or something like that. I came rushing. I saw the consulate already under siege. They were dressing weird Afghani dress. I overheard some weird accents coming to my house. At first it was just a light attack. They had AK47s and no heavy weapons.

Interviewer: Strange accents.

Hakkim: Oh, not with our Libyan accent.

Interviewer: Oh, okay. Arab without a Libyan accent which told you they were not people from Libya.

Hakkim: Yes.

Interviewer: And you said Afghani dress?

Hakkim: Yes.

Interviewer: That people were...

Hakkim: Afghani dress. All of them were in Afghani dress coming through the streets of my house. I encountered the two vehicles of the embassy coming out of the embassy during this siege. Because the compound had two doors, they came from the other door. So they were obviously safe, you know. They came out and I expected that they evacuated the compound but they didn't as later shown. So the attacked started. First it was a light attack by AK47s and light weapons. The Libyans guards were fighting for their lives with the attackers and then they retreated after the first light attack. They retreated and they moved, The whole neighbourhood was under siege. They blocked the roads and they didn't let any civilian go inside the whole neighbourhood and they didn't let anyone go out. Then the second attack started with RBGs heavy weapons, anti-aircraft machine guns, everything. You name it. They were starting to shoot the compound. The Libyan guards fled and then they got inside the compound.

This was their story. The light attack they were calling it a protest, the extremists. They said that they were coming as a protest and then they started to shoot at us. It was an act, the first light attack, it was an act like a protest. So when the Libyan guards shot back because the extremists shot first, obviously, they retreated and they called the rest of the group. It was an act. They got inside and they killed everyone. They killed everyone. They even killed a Sudani cook. You didn't hear this on the news.

Interviewer: Hakkim, you said that two cars sped away prior to this killing, two cars with Libyan plates on them sped away.

Hakkim: No plates. They were armoured cars.

Interviewer: Oh, armoured cars that sped away. So in the event they had wanted to save the ambassador, they could have put him in the armoured vehicle and taken him away, correct?

Hakkim: Yes. They had a very good, decent time yeah? If they wanted to get Chris Stevens out, they had a very good window of time to do it.

Niall: In the meantime, one individual, Abu Khatallah described in media reports at the time as the "mastermind of Benghazi" was renditioned from Libya in 2014 to the United States, tried in a US court and sentenced last year in 2018 to 22 years in prison. He was not however, found guilty of murdering any of the Americans killed in the attack. Bizarrely, the trial established that Abu Khatallah was present during the attack and had participated in it, yet also put it on record that he was not a member of a terrorist organization but that he had "conspired to provide material support for terrorism".

The attack has since gone down in the media narrative as having been carried out by an international Islamist terrorist group, Ansar al-Sharia, one of Al-Qaeda's myriad re-brandings. Why then was it so difficult for them to formally acknowledge this? In any event, so much for him being the mastermind of Benghazi. Currently, a second suspected attacker, Mustafa Al-Imam is facing trial in Washington, DC. It is being overseen by the same court, by the same judge and he is being defended by the same attorney. Earlier this year an investigator hired by this suspect's attorney reached out to the Moriartys and agreed to remunerate them for information they could provide, information which would presumably help their client's defense.

So James and JoAnne asked their contacts in Libya what evidence they could provide about the Benghazi attack. What they have come back with is valuable evidence. Footage from an interview that appears to have been conducted by Moroccan TV News sometime in late 2012 or 2013. The man interviewed is Omar Abd As Salam and in it he confesses to his role in the attack. This footage was aired once then disappeared. Here it is now, shown online for the first time.

Omar Abd El Salam: [From subtitles: Nickname Al-Batati. Born in 1984. Accused of joining an organization which attacked diplomatic officials. "Of course the American embassy. We mounted a force and went to Venice Street. The February 17 Martyrs Brigade. [unintelligible] The field leaders were Imad Chagaabi, Abu Qattala, Ahmad Al Nuss, and Mohammed Ben Hmid. We gathered a force, [unintelligible] the 17th February Brigade and we made a deal with four guards from the American ambassador's security in which we would clash with them for half an hour then they would retreat and we would invade raid the embassy. We made this arrangement, and then we mounted an [unintelligible] from the 17th February Brigade and a [unintelligible] from Venice Street, went to the US Consulate and an exchange of fire with them lasted for 30 minutes. Then we raided the US Consulate and we went to the ambassador's personal quarters [inaudible] escaping and we captured him. Of course we took him out, myself, Alaa El Adjili, one nicknamed El Nems, Mohammed Snousi Hamd, and Abdallah El Addari. We took him out, we strangled him, and we put him in the second car and I [inaudible] the street. A clash occurred with four guards of the American Ambassador.

Interviewer: Were they Libyan or American?

Omar Abd El Assalam: One American and three Libyans.

Interviewer: Those you were involved with, were they American or Libyan?

Omar Abd El Assalam: An American person and three Libyans.

Interviewer: Were they executed or did you let the go?

Omar Abd El Assalam: No, it was a clash, they died in the exchange of fire. Abduction of the Jordanian ambassador. We raided the Jordanian embassy and we abducted the Jordanian ambassador.

Interviewer: Was there coordinate with...?

Omar Abd El Assalam: Coordination with Abu Qattala, Ahmad Al Nuss, and...

Interviewer: Was there any insider coordination?

Omar Abd El Assalam: No, there was no inside coordination. No inside coordination. We quickly entered the Jordanian embassy, we abducted the ambassador, and we demanded [inaudible] mujahideen prisons in Jordan brother friend of Ahmad Al Nuss

Interviewer: And this ambassador, when you abducted him, where did you take him?

Omar Abd El Assalam: We took him [inaudible] 17th February Brigade and we demanded the release of Ahmad Nuss' brother, our mujahid friend in Jordan and he was released.

Interviewer: Regarding the other embassies, you said...

Omar Abd El Assalam: The American Consulate was hit with a bomb and an RPG strike. In [inaudible] street. The governorate, we entered to raid it but we found nobody. We planted bombs and we got out, and it was demolished completely.

Interviewer: You entered in order to steal weapons, or...?

Omar Abd El Assalam: We took the weapons and it was destroyed completely.

Interviewer: So you took the weapons?

Omar Abd El Assalam: We took the weapons.

Interviewer: Was there a large quantity inside?

Omar Abd El Assalam: Yes, a large quantity.

Niall: Note how Abd El Assalam's account of coordination between the guards and the attackers supports the eyewitness's impression that the initial attack on the main compound with light gunfire was "an act" being conducted by irate jihadists in "Afghani dress". Note also that Abd As Salam outright confesses to Stevens having been strangled to death. Finally, note that he gives names of some of his co-attackers. Mustafa Al-Imam is not among them although Abu Qattala is.

The Moriartys were set to provide Al-Imam's defense team in Washington with this information which could well have helped their client but when the attorney's investigator changed the terms of the exchange to insist on seeing this information first before making payment, the deal fell through. Since then the Moriartys have had no follow up contact from them, hence their decision, for their own protection and for the greater public interest, to publish this video.

Joe and I have spoken with James and JoAnne three times previously, most recently in 2017 when they introduced us to Sheikh Khalid Tantoosh, one of Libya's leading imams, a tribal elder and confidante of the late leader of Libya, Muammar Gaddafi. You'll find links to our earlier discussions with the Moriartys in the description below. You can also find extensive documentation for the Moriartys' claims on their website libyanwarthetruth.com where you can also purchase their DVD titled Escape from Al-Qaeda. How are you guys doing?

James: Oh, they still fight us, beat us up all the time. We're a threat I guess to the deep state because of the information that we put out all the time. We get it directly from the tribes in Libya and it's always the truth. It's been validated as being 100% accurate by the defense intelligence agency and as they told us, no intelligence agency in the world has ever been able to get inside the tribal cultures, never been able to gain their confidence and we fortunately did. We're the official spokespersons for the tribes of Libya which includes about 98% of all Libyans.

We were actually put on a kill list by a CIA operative in Libya and we were captured by Al-Qaeda. We were taken to their torture centre where we were to be killed and chopped up and burned. We got out of there with three miracles and got back here and we have been attacked by our own government ever since then. They have soft killed us, blacklisted us, killed our business, took our bank accounts, absolutely put us on the street. We have no money. For all practical purposes we're homeless. We live in an old rundown house at the grace of an elderly couple that moved to Panama to get away from the mess in the United States and they continue to attack us. Back in I think it was 2012, after Chris Stevens was killed, the US state department, Hillary Clinton put out an offer of $10 million reward for information leading to the people that perpetrated the attack on that safe house in Benghazi and murdered Chris Stevens.

The tribes came to us and they said the families of the three guys that coordinated that are so ashamed of their sons that they want to out them to the world. They've disowned them and they want to out them. So we contacted everybody we could in Washington, DC to find out how we could give this information. We offered to give it to them. We didn't even want the reward and we offered to give it to them. Nobody wanted it and we knew it was very dangerous for us to have because anybody that's got any negative information on Hillary Clinton ends up pushing up daisies. Her kill list is huge.

So we didn't' get that information and we didn't want it. It was dangerous for us to have it. JoAnne and myself are our entire team and security and everything. We have a dog and that's it. We have no attorneys. Everybody has abandoned us so we're really out on the end of a little limb and we're targeted individuals. It was not good for us to have that information.

On the 23rd of February a retired police officer who's now the investigator...

JoAnne: February 2019.

James: ...a guy named Trevor Haywood, called us and he said that he's an investigator working for an attorney that's defending a guy in Washington, DC that is supposedly the main perpetrator of the attacks on Benghazi and he's going to trial and this attorney has an unlimited budget, he's trying to find out what information we could bring to them that would help exonerate their client. They had to have it by the 15th of March. So that was three weeks...

JoAnne: I think his name is Mustafa Al-Imam.

James: And the attorney's name is Peed.

JoAnne: Andrew Peed.

James: And then the judge's name is Christopher Cooper. So we checked these guys out. They were real people. JoAnne called early contact with the tribes in Libya and they said "Yeah, we know this guy. He's not even a Libyan. He's a Palestinian."

JoAnne: We're talking about Imam.

James: They said there's no Libyan that's going to take orders from a Palestinian. So this guy, yes he was there but he was a low-level CIA operative.

JoAnne: He was a looter.

James: A paid looter. He was photographed. They had a video camera in the front of that house and he went into the house after the fire went out and he was one of the looters. So we went back to this Trevor Haywood and we said "Yeah, we know who this guy is but on top of that we know we can get the information of who really did it" and he said "Oh gosh, that's great. We want to pay y'all. We need it right away." He put a real high hourly fee for us to do it and then he came back to us a little later and he said he's got a budget, I think it was $30,000 that "We need this information right away and I need to go in and hear everybody by the 15th of March."

So we mobilized with money we did not have and we contacted our friends and they said "There's a video of one of the perpetrators who was arrested in Morocco and there's an audio video interrogation of him where he gives all the names of everybody." And we said, "Great! What's it going to take to get it?" and they said "Well it was put out and then it was redacted and it's not available any place."

JoAnne: It was taken down. It was actually taken down.

James: But the tribes had a copy of that in their...

JoAnne: Archives.

James: ...secure area in Bani Walid. Bani Walid is the capital of the Warfalla tribe which is the biggest tribe in Libya and Bani Walid is a town. It's in a valley and it lies east and a little south of Tripoli. So our friends were in Tunisia and I want everybody to understand it's not safe to communicate in Libya at all. The NSA put in two containers of their most sophisticated monitoring and jamming equipment into Libya in early 2011 when all this phoney uprising was taking place. So they can monitor every phone call. They can jam the systems. They can triangulate on the phone. They're systems have been responsible for the assassination of a lot of tribal leaders and a lot of key people in Libya.

So the people we speak to are actually in Tunisia and when they speak to us they'll call and speak to us for about 10 minutes. We set up the time and they'll go to an internet café and then we'll have a conversation with them. That still is current to this day.

So they said "We cannot get this information via the internet at all. If whoever's got it in Libya will be in mortal danger. So we devised a system where we rented a 10-ton truck in Tunisia, filled it up with water because there is no water - can you imagine? - there's no fresh water in Libya. The water treatment plant has been blown up and there's been nothing done to rebuild those and repair them so they always need water. So we rented this truck, loaded it up with water...

JoAnne: Bottled water.

James: Twenty-one litre bottles in plastic blister wrap, filled this truck. It had wooden sides. It cost us $150 a day and they couldn't drive to Bani Walid via Tripoli because Tripoli is an absolute...

JoAnne: It was.

James: ...Jesse James...

JoAnne: It was full of militias. They're taking them out.

James: Anybody that went into Tripoli were going to get their car stolen, their wife was going to get raped, they'd get killed. It's absolutely hoodlumville. To get to Bani Walid they had to go way south via Gharyan. They took a 900 mile each way trip and it ran into 3,000 miles roundtrip. We paid two drivers $100 a day each and them promised them a nice bonus when they got back. So for seven days they went non-stop to and from Bani WAlid. This video, they took a copy of it and brought it back to Tunisia and then we were sent that video and it was so damning, it absolutely gives the names and date and details.

JoAnne: They gave us a rough translation of it. I sent you that translation. The names were on there. Everything's on there about the people, who they killed, how they killed, everything, how it was set up.

James: Since we didn't have any money at all, we borrowed money from our brother-in-law who's...

JoAnne: He's a retired doctor.

James: ...a retired doctor with health problems and borrowed it from some other people there and they said, "We don't have any money." I said, "Look, we're going to get you paid back immediately because the people in Washington, DC have guaranteed immediate payment to us."

JoAnne: And what Haywood told us was that if the attorney would refuse to pay us then he said "By the way, the attorney has been appointed as a defender for this guy and he's been given millions in a budget to defend this guy so he can do whatever he wants." He said, "If he won't pay you, I will out of my own pocket, so don't worry."

James: So long and short, we think this whole deal was a setup. They have been trying to find out how much information we had that was really damning.

JoAnne: Well what happened when we got the information, we told him, "Oh now the attorney wants the documents and see all the information before he pays you". Of course you know what that does! Then he doesn't need to pay us. He's got the information.

James: Let me give you a list of what we have. The third day after Chris Stevens was killed, the Libyan government which was a phoney NATO/UN installed puppet government came out with their security report. They wanted to make sure that they were not blamed for Chris Stevens' assassination so they arrested everybody they could, interrogated them and they came out with their official report.

JoAnne: I sent that to you Joe.

James: And you got a copy of that. We'd sent it to Jerome Corsi. He wrote an article about it and that report was actually written into the Congressional Record, right in the Congressional Record of the United States. In that report it says that Morsi coordinated, paid and trained everybody for this attack months ahead of time. So Morsi and his wife were 30-year friends of Bill and Hillary Clinton. There is that link. They had an uprising. Muslim Brotherhood threw out the friend of the United States, been a 30-year friend and installs Morsi who is Muslim Brotherhood.

So he's the one that coordinated the...

JoAnne: Killing of the entire...

James: The entire assassination of Chris Stevens.

Niall: For what purpose?

James: Well because Chris Stevens was the gun runner. He was the guy that supplied all those rockets that went to Libya and then disappeared. Twenty thousand.

JoAnne: He was also involved in all the weapons that were brought in by NATO into Libya to blow it up and we have video proof of that. We have lots of proof of that. He was involved in sending all kinds of weapons and mercenaries into Syria.

Joe: Why would the Clintons then want to get rid of him? Just because...

JoAnne: Because dead men tell no tales. [laughter]

James: Anybody who's got any trash on the Clintons are dead. They kill 'em.

JoAnne: There's a real problem with the rockets that were sent into Libya. These shoulder-mounted rockets were sent in after the no-fly zone was in place and the Libyan security came to us in 2011 in Tripoli where we were and said, "Why would your government send all these shoulder-mounted rockets to shoot down planes when we have a no-fly zone and there's no flying here?" Well those rockets were immediately taken out of Libya and put all over...

James: These were 20,000 rockets.

JoAnne: Shoulder-mounted rockets.

James: They're $200,000 each. They're made by Northrop Grumman.

Joe: Right.

James: As an executive of Northrop Grumman told us later, they're the most sophisticated shoulder-to-air rocket made. You could take a 12-year-old and in a couple of hours make him proficient enough to hit a target six miles off within a foot.

JoAnne: One of those rockets shot down a US helicopter in Afghanistan and the rocket did not engage. It didn't blow up and so they got the number off of it. They tracked it back to Libya and they tracked it back to all this stuff.

Joe: Right. Because one of the main things that has been said in terms of the conspiracy around Benghazi and the killing of Stevens is that those weapons that he was involved in, the weapons shipments, from Benghazi, from Libya and the ruin at that point of Libya, to Syria, but you're saying it was more than just Syria. It was going to anybody.

JoAnne: Yes, exactly. It went out to all the mercenaries, Al-Qaeda, whatever proxy army the new world order, whatever you want to call them.

James: We're going to expand that story for you. We are fortunate enough - or damned or whatever - to receive third-party validation all the time. So an executive of Northrop Grumman covered our story and contacted us and he said...

JoAnne: He sent us an email.

James: Sent us an email and he said "You know, y'all are right almost. After these rockets went to Libya and disappeared, a ranking general from the Pentagon called a meeting of the top Northrop Grumman executives in their offices in Florida and he went in there and said "What the hell are you all doing sending 20,000 rockets to Libya and then letting them disappear?!"

JoAnne: "Who bought these rockets?" he said.

James: Then they said, "Well here's the deal. Here's the purchase order. The US Secretary of State's office bought 50,000 of these rockets in 2009. Remember, this is a year-and-a-half before Arab Spring. They said the build time and delivery is about nine months. They were delivered to the US Secretary of State in 2010 and 20,000 of those went to Libya." The other 30,000 - god only knows. So Northrop Grumman was off the hook. Now we've got 50,000 of these rockets.

That's enough to take down every military aircraft in the world and a bunch of the commercial airliners as well. What the hell is the Secretary of State's office doing buying that kind of an offensive weapon?!

JoAnne: Yeah, those are weapons of mass destruction and since when does the Secretary of State buy weapons of mass destruction?

James: So when it was known by the world, all the leaders from the countries around Libya and other parts of the world where these rockets were coming into their countries complained to the United States and said "What the hell are you doing?! You're endangering our countries!" So they sent Chris Stevens out there to get them back.

JoAnne: The CIA's mantra or their general response is that these were Gaddafi weapons. These were the weapons that the rebels found when they went into the Gaddafi stores. This is a complete lie. Claire Lopez who was on the Benghazi panel who's an ex-CIA but I don't think there's any "ex", spoke to me more than once about what we knew in Libya and her responses were so tainted and so not correct. She asked me how I knew Al-Qaeda and what branch of Al-Qaeda, how I knew it was Al-Qaeda that captured us. She said "We don't know if there was any Al-Qaeda in Libya." I said, "They were terrorists. They were radical Islamists. Call them whatever you want, ISIS, whatever, but I know they were being supported by NATO.

James: We were looking at the business end of a bunch of AK47s. They looked like armpits with eyes, beards and moustache - no offense to anybody who's redheaded. [laughter] But they were in our face and we were taken to their torture centre and they were dragging Libyan soldiers into that same building we were in. They were killing them. Were they Al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, Ansar Al-Sharia, your mother-in-law's boyfriend? We don't know but they were [inaudible].

Joe: They probably changed names as often as you change underwear.

JoAnne: She also denied the rockets. She said, "Oh no, those were Gaddafi old Russian rockets." I said, "No, that's not true."

Joe: Let me just clarify something. On the Chris Stevens thing you're saying he was involved but you said that he was campaigning to get those rockets back.

James: He was the intermediary arms dealer for the rebels, the CIA operatives in Libya prior to the time he was assassinated.

JoAnne: With Clinton. He worked with Clinton.

James: After he became ambassador, the pressure from countries all over the world for the United States to cut out this crap and recover all those rockets, they tasked Chris Stevens to do it. And Chris Stevens had dinner that night he was assassinated with the ambassador from Turkey.

JoAnne: Chris Stevens knew he was in danger. He asked for protection many times. He knew he was being targeted. He knew who was targeting him and he knew he was probably going to die. There was nothing he could do about it. They fomented this attack to assassinate him.

James: Five days before that dinner meeting when he was assassinated shortly thereafter, a five kilometre area around that safe house was cordoned off. There was no traffic inside that area. The security for that building was one of the most radical entities in Libya. They were called the 16th of February...

JoAnne: No, they were Ansar Al-Sharia. They called themselves the February 16th group because they were the rebels, rats, whatever you want to call them...

James: Instigators.

JoAnne: Instigators.

James: Prior to that day that there had been anywhere from a dozen to 30 of their members protecting that safe house. That day there were three only.

JoAnne: We know this because - and you have this MP3, I made it into a video, you can download it - that's our eyewitness from Libya. He lived across the street from that safe house. It was never an embassy. It was never a consulate. It's just a CIA safe house. And he was witness to everything. If you listen to that, he talks about the day it happened. He talks about the people who did it. They were not Libyans. They had a strange accent. They had strange clothes. Mostly he thought they were Egyptians. He went into the house after the attack. He saw them abusing...

James: He was taken in there.

JoAnne: Yeah, he said that he...

James: This is a very affluent area. All the houses are 600 to a thousand metres of construction. Most of them have swimming pools. They've got big stone walls in front of the houses. They've got a solid metal gate that's the portico for the cars. That night he was on the other side of the safe house, if you would, at a little convenience store getting some milk and water for his family. When he heard the first shots he jumped in his car to drive to his house. He didn't finish his purchase. And as he was driving down the back side of that house two vehicles came out of that safe house full of white faces. Chris Stevens was not in either of those cars. He pulled around to his house and there were two goons standing outside of his house. He pulled his car in there. He closed the door and went back outside and he said, "Well, are you going to kill us?" and he said "No, we're not here to kill Libyans tonight. We're here to kill Americans."

So he said you have to act like you're friendly with these guys otherwise they'll slit your throat. So he said he stood there and visited with them the whole time this attack is going on in this building. They burned out the inside of the building with something probably like diesel. It made a whole lot of smoke but didn't really burn the structure down.

So after the fire went out they said, "Come on. You go in with us." So he said, "If you don't go along with them..." so he said he was a part of that group that first went into the house after the fire went down.

JoAnne: He said you have to...

James: And it was all dark, no electricity.

JoAnne: You have to comply or they're going attack you.

James: And he said, "When I was in there were a couple of bodies. You couldn't see who it was because it was dark. It was late at night. They were kicking on these bodies. They were urinating on them. They were cussing them. They were abusing them." They drug them outside and one of them was Chris Stevens. And of course he knew who it was.

Joe: In one of the videos you sent me JoAnne, there's a guy who was one of the perpetrators, right?'

James: Yeah. that was the latest piece that we got. All this other stuff we had, the eyewitnesses, that was years ago.

JoAnne: That was Joyce Riley's Power Hour in 2014.

Joe: But you didn't have that video then did you?

JoAnne: No.

James: We didn't want it. We didn't know there was a video. We didn't know until the lure of enough money for us to get out of this little moldy house, if you would - we've got seven kinds of mold blooming here. It's not a safe house. It's not a healthy house to live in. So that would have been enough money for us to be able to move into a better location.

Joe: Right.

James: So that's when we requested to get this information formalized to us.

Joe: This was at the request of one of the prosecutors.

JoAnne: Yes.

Joe: In a case that's ongoing to try and find out who....

James: Not the prosecutor, but the defense.

JoAnne: Yeah, the defense attorney's investigator.

Niall: This Mustafa Al-Imam.

JoAnne/James: Yes.

Niall: And that case is ongoing right now.

JoAnne: Yes it is. It goes to trial on the 29th of April I think.

James: It's a kangaroo court. They're going to find him guilty.

Joe: His defense attorney promised you guys money to get this information that would acquit his client.

JoAnne: Yeah, or make him not the instigator, just a minor player in it.

James: They're trying to close the book. They're trying to say, "This was the bad guy. He started everything. He did everything."

JoAnne: He's a scapegoat if you will.

Niall: Right.

Joe: But as it turns out, when you got this evidence, then they don't want to have anything to do with it.

JoAnne: No. Not only do they not want it, when we tried to tell them what we had he said, "Well we have to see the proof" and Jimmy said, "That's not going to work. If we give you the proof..."

James: I said, "What about our expenses? What about the payments?" because they hadn't been coming in. He said, "Well..."

JoAnne: One of our Libyans has lost his phone and his laptop over this and he said "We'll pay it. No problem." As soon as we refused to give him all the information without payment, they dropped off the air. We haven't heard from them since.

James: Tried giving it to the judge. The judge said, "No, no, I don't want anything to do with you. Go to the attorney." So the judge is a kangaroo court judge. Incidentally, he was in the transition team for Obama. When we found all that out, after we had done everything we could and really got the proof to exonerate this guy as being the ring leader, then we had to go back and rethink what happened. Forever we have been attacked. They arrested us on the highway one time, kept us for 31-and-a-half hours. They were inside this house. They went through all our computers and everything. They're trying to find out just how much real hard evidence we've got.

JoAnne: Or we can get.

James: All the war crimes and atrocities in Libya. What we've got. They've been trying to get that from us forever and we've had it secreted in hard drives all over the place. This piece of information about Benghazi, we never wanted it in our possession. So we think we were probably set up and they know we have no money so $6,500 of expenses paid out is a fortune. That's half a year's living expenses for us. So that was a devastating thing.

JoAnne: They attacked my computer, they blew up my hard drive, they attacked Jimmy's computer and we decided okay, the only thing we can do is make this public. The best thing for us is to make all this information public.

James: And let everybody see the truth and then let them question their own governments and everybody. Why is the United States covering this up? Why are these truths not available to the investigative forces of the CIA and FBI and all these other intelligence agencies and these two little people in deep southeast Texas have this huge body of information?

JoAnne: Plus when they were offered the information they refused it.

James: Yeah.

Joe: Right. The key piece of information, at least in one of the videos, is not the eyewitness video that you have - I want to ask you about the videos in a minutes as something else - but the key pieces of information in the video that's in Arabic that you provided a translation for, is that that guy who claims to have been taking part in the attack on the consulate, whatever, where Stevens was killed, that he says that there was an American with him.

JoAnne: Yes.

James: Oh yeah. First we've heard that. But see, we didn't stop at just getting the video. The tribes always want double or triple validation so after we had the video in hand, if you would, we had a family of three people go back to Benghazi and interview the families that had originally offered up the names of their sons to verify that the names this man gave were the correct ones. And they validated it. The three names given as the lead perpetrators were the guys named in this video.

But here's another piece of information. Yes that American as one of the coordinators, that was the first time we heard that. We don't have name and nobody in Libya knows his name. Next to that he said that Chris Stevens was pulled out of the group that was fixing to go down the slide. On all these buildings they have a slide out the back side.

JoAnne: An escape slide.

James: And hit the slide, the cars are right there and they can escape in no time. We know this happened because of our eyewitness. But what we saw from the videos, he said Chris Stevens was pulled away from these people and the three guys strangled him. He was killed and we have the names of the three guys that killed him.

JoAnne: You'll see in the translation.

Joe: Right.

James: Here's a question you have to ask.

Joe: Right. And the thing is...

James: This all happened within a minute or two. How did these three guys get inside that house and know where Chris Stevens was going to be in that short a period of time? They were already in the house.

Joe: Right.

JoAnne: They had to be.

Joe: Or they had an American with them who knew where Stevens was.

James: No, this was different guys. Those guys were outside shooting in the air acting all crazy. These guys had to have been inside the building.

JoAnne: The first guys were the diversionary ones who had the agreement with the two or three guys guarding it to let them in.

Joe: Right.

JoAnne: So they created a diversion and then the other guys were let in that were the murderers.

James: They were already in. Had to have already been in there because within a minute of the shootings going on, two cars were leaving out the back side. We know that from our eyewitness. So these guys within a minute, got into the house and got back where Chris Stevens was going to be at the slide. They were already in there.

JoAnne: Chris Stevens was going to make an escape and they stopped him and killed him. The news said he was killed by smoke inhalation.

Niall: Exactly, yeah.

JoAnne: That was a lie.

James: So here you've got a blocked up body of evidence from different sources, from the government of Libya, from our eyewitness, now one of the perpetrators. We have the entire proof of what really happened and of course nobody wants to know about it.

JoAnne: They still offer a $5 million reward for anybody coming forward with any information. They will not speak to us of course. They don't want the information. Trey Gowdy has been contacted by many people who've heard our stories saying "You need to speak to these people" and finally we called his office and they said "Oh we have a file on you but if we ever need to speak to you we will."

James: We call Trey Gowdy a speechifier, all intentions. All they do is run their mouth but they don't ever do anything and Trey Gowdy, Louie Gomer, Darrell Issa, these guys are all saying they're going to find out what happened in Benghazi, they're going to bring the perpetrators to task, they're going to do this and that. There has never been one Libyan interviewed that was not an employee of the United States government. Not one.

Joe: People might wonder why if there's a federal court case going on that's seeking to find the perpetrators of Benghazi right now and there's a guy who has been accused of being directly involved in it and you guys have been given evidence that this guy isn't the only one or even the main one involved or all the people admitting to being involved and saying that there was an American there and all those other details from eyewitnesses, so the question would be well why wouldn't a federal prosecutor be interested in all of those details if he's trying to defend a Libyan from the accusation of being involved in Benghazi. You guys obviously have a lot more information. Why wouldn't he need it and why would the judge even put the kibosh on that kind of thing? There's two words that explain it.

JoAnne: Right.

Joe: National security, right?

JoAnne: Right.

Joe: That's what you have to say to those kind of people, or you have someone in a suit with credentials comes up and says "national security" and they shut their mouths.

James: Yeah, and the truth is, this was a CIA operation. This was an assassination of Chris Stevens, an ambassador, by Hillary Clinton and Obama and company to quell all the information about the rockets and all the weapons that would pass through into Syria and other places. This gets back to why Libya was blown up and everything. But if they can make this little guy a scapegoat and they close the file completely, stall the case, here's the bad guy. We're going to string him up. That's it, then you close this nasty little piece of history.

JoAnne: They way they got his name was Khatallah, the guy that's in prison right now. He did take part. He is named as one of the helpers. He is in prison right now. He named this guy. They told him to name someone and this guy has no information about how it was put together, how it was initiated, who was behind it or anything. So this is a safe person to have up there on trial. Yet he can't talk.

James: Also, the US government paid a Libyan informant, a businessman, $7 million to bring forward evidence and names of who and who.

JoAnne: Khatallah and this guy.

James: So they've had their own stool pigeon over there, if you would.

Joe: Niall was just telling me about that earlier on today. Go ahead.

Niall: Well it's very extraordinary little fact that was included in the media reports about the first trial of Abu Khatallah. This guy literally was paid $7 million for information. They way they got this guy out of Libya was extraordinary. They lured him to a safe house on the coast and then US navy delta and an FBI team were there to kidnap him.

Joe: Well it was the guy Khatallah who got $7 million for luring him and putting him into the hands of...

Niall: The US navy initially and then whoever.

Joe: Or rendered him.

Niall: A war ship back in the states.

James: Seven million dollars was paid to a Libyan informant, a businessman there.

Niall: Right, okay.

Joe: That was $7 million.

JoAnne: That's right.

James: They don't want the truth. They don't want all their war crimes to be exposed.

JoAnne: This Al-Imam was picked up illegally. That was one of the defenses they used. They said this guy was picked up illegally. But how can the FBI go into any country and pick up somebody?

James: A looter.

JoAnne: A looter. Yeah, but on top of it, the first guy was picked up illegally because the FBI technically has no authority outside the United States.

Niall: Exactly.

JoAnne: The CIA is the group that works outside the United States. So if you look at how they were formed...

James: Anybody who believes the United States is a lawful country is smoking dope. [laughter] They're a big bully. Whatever they want to do they're going to do it.

Niall: There's another extraordinary connection between the two cases, the trial of the first guy, Abu Khatallah and the current guy, Mustafa Al-Imam. It's the same judge, it's the same court and I believe it's the same defense attorney.

JoAnne: Yes.

Niall: Judge Cooper and this attorney Peed. That's a setup. That's extraordinary.

JoAnne: Absolutely. And Peed, if you look at his background, he's tied to - what is the name of that...

James: A criminal law firm, the one that's defending...

JoAnne: Hillary Clinton.

James: That area was cordoned off for five days. This was a planned attack. Hillary Clinton put out Chris Stevens hour-by-hour itinerary, where he was going to go, how he was going to go, etc. and then the security force that was there protecting in-house had disappeared. It was a setup. It was an assassination, period.

Niall: About the attack itself, I was kind of shocked to go back over it and remind myself exactly how it played out. It was actually two separate locations. Not only that but they were separated in time and there were four Americans killed in total and they have since all been named.

JoAnne: Yes.

James: They were Blackwater. They were...

JoAnne: They were hired.

James: Yeah, they were hired. And they were about 9/10th of a mile away from this.

JoAnne: They were ex-military under contract and they were not part of the plan. They were not supposed to be there. They were not supposed to go there.

Joe: Well why was that second CIA location shelled? Who fired mortars at it and why?

Niall: Hours later.

James: Well because they were not supposed to attack. There was a stand down order given to all the people who could have defended the Benghazi safe house. It was never a consulate. It never had a flag flying on it. None of the vehicles had diplomatic tags, not anything. So this was a safe house only. What happened in that house is every politician from all over the world, when they came into Libya, were given a $10 million gift inside that house in cash. So every time John McCain went there he went home with a bundle of cash. That's what that house was used for and they also made their deals with the rebels. All the rebels who were brought in were CIA, Mossad, MI6 mercenaries, trained outside of Libya, brought in. That location was where they made their side deals with the CIA operatives, etc. That was a safe house.

JoAnne: Those guys were all from America.

James: And then the Blackwater headquarters was 9/10th of a mile away, in the same area but 9/10th of a mile away. So not close enough for them to run up and defend it. And really the whole event from start to Chris Stevens being killed happened in a couple of minutes. The rest of it was Kabuki theatre.

JoAnne: This is one of other piece of information that was odd that happened. The Saturday night that Chris Stevens was killed and attacked, actually we heard six weeks before from a general in the desert who called us on a satellite phone and said 'one of your properties are going to be attacked'. We didn't know what property or what he was talking about so we were told six weeks in advance." Then the night that it happened the tribes called us and said "Your ambassador is being attacked. He's going to be killed. He's going to be attacked tonight in an hour. You need to get your help there. Call your people." Who could we call? We don't have anybody to call. And so maybe two hours later they said "Your ambassador's been killed and he's been moved to this hospital in Benghazi" and they gave us the name and the street and they said, "The people who killed him are with him and you need to go there. You can arrest them right now."

James: They also said "You have weaponized drones flying in that area."

JoAnne: Yeah. "You can call in your drones. You can call in your military. They're right there. These are the guys that killed him." We had nobody to talk to. We had nobody to call. Nobody listens to us so maybe two hours later and they said, "Okay, the guys who killed Chris Stevens have shaved off their beards. They put on western clothes and they're in cars heading to Cairo right now."

James: And they gave us a description of the cars.

JoAnne: They told us about the cars that they were driving and they said "You can get them still."

James: And that's a long road from Benghazi to the border of Egypt.

Niall: Yeah. It was known then in senate hearings after the attack that Hillary Clinton was personally being briefed in real time at every stage of the operation.

JoAnne: Yeah, Obama was watching it on his TV.

Niall: Yeah. So something happened there where there's stand down. I'm still confused though about the time delay between the two separate facilities in Benghazi. Were you suggesting that the two guys, Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty, they were the two named contractors in the other facility, they were going to come and help but they were beaten back by...

JoAnne: They were told not to.

James: There was a team in Tripoli that was already in the plane. They could have been there in an hour or so. There was help from a submarine that was in a launch, a bunch of drones and other equipment to protect that place. But see, all the damage was already done. This was all Kabuki theatre. The four Blackwater guys that were killed - and we don't know that they're Blackwater but they were paid operatives for the United States...

JoAnne: Contractors.

James: They were killed and the real tragic part about this is their location, for those rockets to have hit the tops of those buildings like they did, could not have been an accident. Those were trained...

JoAnne: Targeted.

James: ...dialed in weaponry that did that.

Niall: Right.

James: So another attack on that Blackwater facility.

Joe: And you would imagine that a couple of - you said Blackwater officially they're referred to as CIA operatives - but there's a bit of a blending there of Blackwater, CIA mercenaries.

JoAnne: Contracted.

Joe: Yeah. But those guys are no dummies, there in Libya in a war zone or a hot zone and there's a lot of chaos around and they're in a house. We can be pretty sure that not a lot of people know that they're there. Those guys kind of protect themselves and not going to leave themselves as sitting ducks basically so they're going to be fairly discreet about what they do. So like you said Jimmy, for mortars to directly hit the building that they were in and kill them strongly suggests someone being given that specific information. Go back to the US if you want.

James: Let me tell you something. The operatives in Libya beginning in for sure by middle summer; Libya by that time was nearly destroyed and by August there was very little Libyan military left to fight and by October Libya was finished. So all these operatives that were in there, the 250,000 mercenaries - the reason that the United States uses operatives, Blackwater and these other companies, is because that takes the blame away from the United States. These guys are paid but they're not US. They're operatives.

JoAnne: They don't fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice either.

James: So these guys weren't afraid of anything. There was never an opportunity for anybody to attack them because those were the guys bringing the money in and transporting the mercenaries inside Libya.

Joe: Right.

James: The CIA 29 training centres.

Joe: Who in Libya's going to want to and be able to kill those two guys?

JoAnne: Nobody.

Joe: They're the friends of all the most...

James: They're the guys who passed out the money. They're not going attack them.

Joe: Right.

James: They're not afraid. They were not fearful. All they had to do was drink their beer and eat their pizza and pass out money!

Joe: Right.

Niall: One of the guys, Glen Garvey, former navy seal and named as one of the CIA contractors who was killed with Chris Stevens, he was in the other building. The guy with Chris Stevens was Sean Smith, I think. He was also with the State Department so he's formerly US foreign service corp. But Garvey and Tyrone, the bizarre thing is that ABC News put out a report just days after the Benghazi attack in September of 2011 saying that they had just the month previously, August, interviewed Glen Doherty about the problem that he was tasked with - allegedly- solving in Libya, which was tracking down these surface-to-air manpad missile launchers and destroying all of them. But he was speaking to ABC News a month before this warning about how difficult it was and the proliferation of weapons, yada, yada. Why would he be doing that? Why would he be speaking to the press, this CIA contractor if he's actually in Libya making sure these things are being distributed and pushed out there?

James: Because he's selling the agenda. He's acting like Al-Qaeda, all these bad guys have these rockets, and we've got to get them back. ISIS, Ansra Al-Sharia, Muslim Brotherhood, they are operatives for the United States, France, England, etc. So they have to keep this lie up and act like we're fighting the enemy when in fact those are the paid mercenaries.

JoAnne: This is a little side vignette because it works with this story, what's happening in Tripoli right now, the Libyan national army is going in there to clean out all these mercenaries and militias, terrorist really, that are in there. What happened is the US pulled their troops out of Janzour. Nobody knew...

James: This just happened in the last couple of days.

JoAnne: Nobody knew there were US troops in Janzour, at least no Libyans I knew.

Niall: Right. There was footage yesterday showing them leaving in a hovercraft.

JoAnne: Yeah, that's right. And the Italians are pulling their troops out, who've been supporting the Misrata militias and the east Indians are pulling their military out of Tripoli. We didn't even know they were there!

James: The Italians had moved in an occupational force...

JoAnne: In Misrata.

James: ...into Misrata after Trump gave them the imprimatur to take over Libya.

JoAnne: But think about this: You've got the militias, these gangs in Tripoli that control Tripoli and allowing the UN government to steal, do whatever they want, not help the Libyan people but steal gold, steal oil, steal their money, whatever. The US is there and Italy is there helping these mercenaries, giving them weapons, giving them money, making sure that they're okay, not helping Libya at all. But here's the US saying "We have no part of this. These are terrorists over here." So they've got this whole thing spun around where we think, "Oh, there are these terrible terrorists." No! It's the US there with their puppets.

James: US operatives.

JoAnne: Mastering their puppets out there, they were right there in Tripoli.

James: How in the hell could all these legitimate military forces inside Libya, US, Italian, French, east Indian, all these forces there, well trained and everything, how could they allow the continued destruction of Libya? The power plants are not put back in order, the water treatment plants. The Libyans don't have drinking water, don't have electricity, don't have all these things.

JoAnne: Because they're not there to help Libya. They're there to maintain and master their puppets that are there making Libya destabilized all the time.

James: But the good news is there's an organic uprising now, a real uprising in Libya and they are absolutely moving through Tripoli and they're cleansing. They're routing all the militias because if you've got a bunch of gang members, if you've got 500, 1,000, 1,500 armed gangs, this gang is over here, this gang is over here, none of them are coordinated and they're all trying to steal their piece of the pie. So when the Libyans finally got together and they devised a plan, this Khalifa Haftar, is a CIA operative, period. That's all he is. However, he's the only guy that's been allowed to receive any weapons or support or anything.

So the Libyan tribes and the other Libyan legitimate leaders said "Well let's go and let this guy run it."

JoAnne: "We don't care. Put him over here. Let him be the face. We're going to go clean our country." And that's what they've decided to do. You know it's funny now because he's being attacked. They're comparing him to Assad.

Joe: Yeah right. [laughter] There's a lot of noise in the past few days. It's kind of coincidental I suppose with talking to you about something that happened six or seven years ago, that Libya has sprung back into the news just in the past few days and you've already mentioned Haftar but there was a big push-back when he started an offensive against Tripoli, dropping a bomb near Tripoli airport and supposedly is marching on Tripoli. There was a lot of noise, a lot of upset amongst most of the west, particularly in the US though and the UN of course, about him doing that, calling for calm and for him to back down because they support the so-called legitimate government that was installed not long after the NATO bombing.

As far as most people are aware in terms in that they get their information from the media, there's the so-called legitimate government in...

Niall: Tobruk in the west.

Joe: In Tobruk and Tripoli, yeah and then that's the legitimate government approved by the UN and then there's this guy Haftar, former general or whatever, he used to live in America in Langley, not far from CIA headquarters. He's now back on the scene. So people are given this image of there being these two opposing factions but you're saying there's a third force that's the most legitimate representatives of the people.

JoAnne: Yeah. What they have in Tripoli is a UN puppet government, never elected. It's passed the NATO government. They threw that one out. They had an election in 2014 and elected the Tobruk government but the Muslim Brotherhood attacked it. They had to move...

James: They were killing the wives, attacking the legitimately elected members so they had to move it in masse to Tobruk to establish the government there because the bad guys, the CIA operatives, if you would and Mossad operatives in Tripoli, would not allow them to seat themselves.

JoAnne: The Muslim Brotherhood was the one that was really upset that they lost. They voted all of them out so the UN went to Tunisia and they picked up a bunch of Libyans 'rats', as Libyans call most of them, some Ansar al-Sharia, some Al-Qaeda, some Muslim Brotherhood, some LIFG (Libyan Islamic Fighting Group), put them together as a new government and the Libyan people said "We don't want them. Don't bring them here." So they snuck them in by dark of night, the brought them into Mitiga airport by water and that's where Belhaj was, one of the leading terrorist guys and he protected them. Once they hit the Libyan ground, the Un said "Oh, here's the legitimate government. We recognize this one. This guys the prime minister, this Sarraj."

James: So the Libyan people voted in the wrong group, wasn't acceptable to the UN so the UN installed its own group and acts like this legitimately elected group is non-valid.

JoAnne: But the UN government has no support in Libya at all. The only support they have, the only reason they can even stay seated is because the militias are working with them. They work with LIFG, the work with the militias...

James: And they have control of the money.

JoAnne: Yeah, they're stealing from Libya right and left and Libya has had it! They don't want it anymore. Libya's never even been represented in the UN by a Libyan since 2011. They got a German, a Spanish, now they've got a guy Salamé, from Lebanon who wants to talk. So it's interesting, you have Pompeo coming and saying, "Civilians are being killed in Tripoli and blah, blah, blah." Well, he didn't have any trouble with 60,000 bombing sorties with civilians in 2011!

Niall: Right. There's no problem with ISIS being in Tripoli.

JoAnne: Yeah!

James: A million Libyans were killed by the US, UN and NATO attacks in Libya. A million!

JoAnne: You won't see that anywhere. But what he's saying now is "We have to talk. It's peaceful." Talking for eight years, the Libyans still don't have clean water. The Libyans have come to say "Hey, we don't buy this anymore. It's not going to work. We have to clean our country. It's a virus we have in our country and it's eating us alive! The only way to get rid of it is to kill it!" And that's what they're doing.

James: This is not anything new. I want you to look at Libya now then go west and look at Venezuela. Venezuela had a duly elected government, that the government of the United States doesn't like and the Zionists don't like so they pull this Guido out. He's never been elected to anything and immediately Trump says "He's now the President in Venezuela." So this is the modus operandi for the bad guys. If the people don't elect the one they want, then they're going to put in their own puppet. Same thing in Syria. Assad was re-elected by a huge majority.

JoAnne: Eight-five percent.

James: On every election! And all the elections were monitored. "No, he's not any good. We've got to have regime change." So in Libya, the people have this organic uprising. They have been beat up, abused, their country's been destroyed, a trillion dollars worth of infrastructure damage to that country.

JoAnne: But what has happened is like a tinderbox in Libya and finally a spark has been lit. The people have been wanting this forever and this spark got lit and so now Haftar says he's going to have 85,000 troops and he probably will. They're coming from Syria. I know Tarhuna has 3,000 troops coming in from all over Libya. They're going to clean this rat's nest out. I don't know if you follow many Libyans on Facebook, but they put this out all over media. They say "We're coming to this area. Anybody near the airport here on this road, please evacuate your home. Please leave your homes. Please leave your homes in this area. Anybody who has militias in their family, living in their houses, leave your home. Leave the militias there but leave your home." So they're warning the people to please get out of the way. "We're coming to clean the city."

Joe: So you would more or less support this Haftar guy then?

JoAnne: I don't support Haftar per se. I support the Libyan...

James: The Libyan army.

Niall: For this purpose.

JoAnne: Yes. The Libyan - and what's great is Haftar's now in the news and being targeted. I think it's great that no Libyan is. But the thing that's happening is Haftar thinks when he cleans this up, that they're going to have an election, he's agreed to an election. He thinks he'll be elected President. He's got 8% support in Libya. No matter what, he will never be elected to anything. But the country has to be cleaned and that's the only way they can bring the whole country together. They couldn't do it before. They had no weapons. The leadership is fractured.

James: Years and years ago, the west wanted to overthrow Gaddafi because of all the natural resources in Libya and Gaddafi was...

JoAnne: This was in the 1970s.

James: ...distributing the wealth of the country to all the people. They couldn't have that. So they started an invasion of Libya from Chad and the big traitor who was involved in that was Haftar.

Niall: Right.

James: So when that war is lost, Haftar and all his cohorts were lifted out and taken to Langley, Virginia and they stayed there in and around CIA headquarters for almost 30 years. Then when this phoney revolution in Libya starts, the CIA drops him down in Libya as the leader of all the rebels, all these 250,000 mercenaries that they brought in. Haftar was the leader. Then after a year or two all of a sudden he gets some religion and he has a change of heart and so now he's going to help Libya. Never, ever was there ever any good intent in his heart. He was told by the CIA he would be installed as the leader of Libya and he'd be the potentate, he'd be able to be the big guy, etc. That never happened because he never had any popular support.

Niall: Yeah, he used to be close with Muammar Gaddafi, right? And then they fell out and that was why he was...

JoAnne: In the 1970s he was a general in the army, so yeah he knew Gaddafi.

James: But he was bought out.

JoAnne: But the problem with Haftar is he has agreed to be a dictator. That's what he wants to be. And his sons are criminals. His sons have robbed banks and killed people and stuff and they're fighting in the army. But at this point, after eight years the Libyans say "We don't care. We just want our country cleaned and after that we will see Libya rise again and don't worry about Haftar. Don't worry about him."

Joe: Do you think that's going to happen? Do you think...

James: Yeah, it's happened?

Joe: ...Haftar's going to be pushed aside?

JoAnne: Well yeah because it'll be the tribes that push him aside.

James: But what's happened in Libya is we've had Russia and Egypt and other countries stand up for the Libyans. Russia made a declaration - I think it was Friday or Saturday - and said "There will be no foreign intervention in Libya. This is going to be handled inside Libya and any foreign influence that attempts to go into Libya, we will eliminate them." I don't know if Russia is already there or they're moving it in, one of their aircraft carriers equipped with S400 missiles...

JoAnne: It's near Tripoli now.

James: And so they are not going to allow any foreign intervention. In addition to that, Egypt has lined up all of its army, most of its tanks, on the border with Libya and Egypt has a huge army. We've been told - we don't have any proof of that - that Egypt is the one that shot down the aircraft that was bringing a whole new load of weapons into Misrata.

JoAnne: For the militias.

James: And it came from Qatar. But the history of the chain of weapons has always been US to Qatar to wherever.

JoAnne: Turkey.

James: So that plane was shot down, probably by Egypt.

Joe: When did that happen?

JoAnne: Pardon?

Joe: Was there a plane shot down recently?

JoAnne: This was what's been reported. I can't find anything in the news.

James: A day or two ago.

JoAnne: But you know, Egypt has the largest army in the world and they stand behind the Libyan tribes and the Libyan people. They don't want a UN government. They want the Libyan people to take their country back and so what they're going to do is block the US from bringing in more mercenaries, I'm sure through their border. Any problems, they're standing ready to help the Libyans. That's a huge...

James: As well as Russia and Russia's laid the gauntlet.

JoAnne: Russia has said "Anybody that puts troops on the ground in Libya" - Putin said this - he said, "You will find Russian troops there now."

James: The proof that this is effective is the exodus of all these military personnel out of Libya.

Joe: Right.

James: The US is evacuating their CIA army out of Libya. The Italians' huge occupational force has been evacuated through Misrata.

JoAnne: The other thing...

James: India's taking their force out. They would not have done this if there was any chance that they could affect an offensive against the Libyan people again. So Russia's not going to allow that so what they're doing is all these rats are leaving the ship.

JoAnne: And the Libyan people, if you look, there's videos all over the internet that people took with their cameras when the Libyan national army's coming in. They're standing out there hugging them and saying "Thank you god!" and "Welcome! Welcome! Come in please!" They've been suffering for eight years with this mess. This is what they pray for. So it's not an attack on civilians. It's not a civil war. They're saying "Libya's having a civil war." No, that would mean the Libyans fighting against each other.

Joe: Right. It's basically Haftar who is kind of being used by the true Libyans and the actual Libyan army or the Libyan military to rally the troops, the genuine Libyan troops to push out the militias, the foreigners that have been in Libya since 2011 and who are propping up or are the irregular army for the UN-backed government, right?

James: That's correct.

JoAnne: Yes, that's exactly right.

Joe: But in hindsight now with seven or eight years since the destruction of Libya by NATO and then what happened afterwards with Syria, it starts to look like Libya was almost planned in advance as a staging ground for what happened in Syria.

James: It was.

JoAnne: Libya is a staging ground for many things. I've always said it's the pinnacle for them because they were allowed to do whatever they wanted to do with impunity to Libya.

Joe: Right.

James: On our DVD there's a long interview with Dennis Kucinich who was a congressman and in that interview he detailed the fact that the US played war games about Libya in 2010. The other thing, that war games are planned for years in advance. In the war games that were played in 2010 before Arab Spring ever started, there was going to be 11 battle ships taken into the Mediterranean to attack an oil-rich dictatorship and they would start off with a no-fly zone and then with friendlies inside the country they would take the country over in a matter of weeks. Well 11 ships went into the Mediterranean. On the war games it was to start on March 18. It actually started on February 18th. So Libya was planned years and years and years in advance.

And really from the time that the Libyan tribes had their bloodless coup when they threw out the old despot team who was appointed by England to rule Libya and in his time there, the average Libyan salary was 60 Dinar a year. It was the poorest, least developed country in all of Africa. The Libyan people just had a terrible life. They had an uprising, a bloodless coup. The guy ran off and Gaddafi was actually appointed. He was a colonel in rank but he was very charismatic, very well educated so he became the leader of Libya. From that day forward, the west wanted to make Gaddafi step down. Whenever he asked for assistance in running the country, because they didn't have the ability to build the infrastructure and everything, he first of all went to the west and England and the United States said "The first thing you do is you reinstall the king as the leader and then we'll talk to you."

Well that wasn't going to happen so Gaddafi went to the next group and that was the Russians and the Russians did provide support and training and everything to build Libya. So the fact that Libya was attacked constantly because it's a huge natural resource country, huge!

JoAnne: Libya was blamed for Lockerbie. They were blamed for a whole bunch of things they never did. Gaddafi hated radical Islamists. But the big point that most people never pick up on - and this is why you can never believe the media and that's why I say over and over again, "Don't believe the media" - Gaddafi was not the leader of Libya in 2011. He was required to step down by the 2006 treaty with the United States, signed by Condoleezza Rice and he did.

So to make him the leader, to make him the bully, to make him the killer, they just continually do it! That's their mantra.

James: Let me give you some more about how they load up the lies. We met a guy in Libya who was a professor.

JoAnne: Dr. Nori Doroghi. He got his doctorate in England, a nuclear physicist. He was head of their atomic energy program in Libya and they did have a nuclear enrichment program in Libya. However...

JoAnne: Assisted by the US.

James: Yeah. However, he was taken into Florida by military aircraft and the yellow cake, which is the uranium concentrate in its first stages, was delivered to him by the US out of Florida and flown into Libya. The equipment to enrich the uranium was designed and built in England and the United States. So the equipment was supplied to Libya by the US and British intelligence agencies. So Libya has this nuclear enrichment program and then whenever Gaddafi is painted as this huge, big ogre, "Why he is enriching uranium!"

JoAnne: To blow up the world.

James: So this is set up.

JoAnne: When Libya was under embargo, the US went in and encouraged him to do enrichment of uranium and gave him the enrichment! Flew Dr. Doroghi to Florida! He told us himself! He said, "Yeah, they took me into Florida many times."

James: So was this planned? Oh yeah! Planned years in advance. Don't anybody ever take the fact that these Zionists are slow. No they're smart. They're way ahead of us.

JoAnne: These schemes they think about in advance, "Okay, we're going to give him this nuclear enrichment" and they were going to blame him for blowing up the world and they were going to be able to take him down. For the whole world they built Libya to be the garden place of evil and in reality, it was just the opposite. Radical Islamists were not allowed in Libya, period!

James: Libya went from the least developed country in Africa to the most developed country in Africa. Salaries were $15,800 a year. That was higher than China and India. When you got married the government gave you a $46,000 gift. Each time you had a baby the government gave you a $5,000 gift. All these things that the government distributed the wealth of the country amongst all its people. Well you couldn't have that! The bad guys couldn't have that!

JoAnne: There's a new book out by Dr. Francis Boyle. He's a law professor. He's actually one of the few professors of law that has taken on NATO and won. He took it on for Kosovo. Anyway, he's a friend of Abuzaid Dorda who was the UN representative for Libya in the early 2000s. He was also Prime Minister of Libya at one time, a very, very good man. He was in prison for eight years in Libya simply because he did not join the revolution. He wrote a book and it's called Destroying Libya and World Order: The Three-Decade US Campaign to Terminate the Qaddafi Revolution. They had to attack what he built. They could not have that in the world stage showing people enjoying their country, enjoying their wealth, enjoying their freedom and sovereignty. They didn't want that. He just released the book. You can find it under Francis Boyle. I thought it was very interesting because it's a different perspective people need to think about. Why was Libya so attacked? Why were they so maligned?

James: Well it's a very, very wealthy in natural resource country and the plan of the bad guys, the Khazarian mafia, whatever, they were going to divide Libya. France has been stealing gold concentrate out of Libya. They put in mining operations in the southern part of Libya in 2011. Nobody knew why they built that military base down there. They were processing gold concentrate like crazy. We know that they declared that they took out $85 million worth of copper concentrate. Libya doesn't have any copper but that was gold concentrate. So how much money did they really steal, and that was only put in a one-year report. So they've been raping the country since 2011.

The Italians wanted to take over the part of Libya where all the natural gas production takes place because there's two natural gas ducts that go under the Mediterranean from Libya into Italy and Italy was receiving a .25 cent per thousand cubic foot discount on all the natural gas out of Libya being delivered into Europe. The government of Berlusconi said that that payment on the Libyan gas was sufficient to pay all the government costs in Italy. So Italy was going to take over the gas. England was going to take over the oil production. So they were going to divide Libya up into pieces. They even had names for all the different divisions and the Libyan tribes never wanted to do that. So another factor in the Libyan people getting behind Khalifa Haftar in face only is that he agreed to unify Libya and not allow it to be divided up into pieces.

And now we know India was in there. I don't know what India needed out of Libya, but Libya had a huge iron ore deposit. They had some pure silica in there, 100% pure, very, very rare. So India had its military in there so the invasion of the country was the goal of the bad guys.

JoAnne: I read this, I haven't confirmed it myself, but there was a security counsel in the UK and Qatar came forward with a resolution to re-enter Libya militarily because of going into Tripoli and Russia vetoed it. That is great news because finally some country will stand up and allow Libya to clean itself!

Joe: Right.

JoAnne: Libya will do that, but they can't if they continually are hit. Like the tribes tell me, "We have no weapons. We have no way to get weapons. They won't allow us to have weapons." So if they clean their country they become their own country again.

Joe: Yeah, Russia seems to be making similar moves in Libya to an extent, similar to the moves they made in Syria. It's following through on the precedent that it set in Syria where it basically said no to the traditional regime change and civil war in Syria and it's not...

Niall: Put a brake on things.

Joe: Yeah. No to the empire basically, no to NATO and the evil empire and it seems to be making moves in that direction in Libya as well, saying, "No, it's not happening here again."

JoAnne: Yeah.

James: Well you know the people of the United States don't like this warring. The evil empire is 10 square miles called Washington, DC.

Joe: Right.

James: It does not represent the minds and the hearts of the people in the United States. That's the group of criminals. All of them are bought and paid for. They are puppets of the Khazarian mafia.

JoAnne: The US is a tinderbox too, like Libya was. The people here are not happy. People in Europe are not happy.

Joe: As on previous shows when we talked to you, we really want to generate as much support for you guys as possible because, as we know, you deserve it and need it. So now you have a Patron account, right?

JoAnne: Yes.

Joe: We'll probably link to that in the description but we just wanted to mention to listeners that they should check out that link to JoAnne and Jimmy's Patreon account and seriously consider supporting them because they really deserve it because they've done a lot of work and have been very consistent over the past seven years. Their story hasn't changed. It's been consistent and in fact just very recently, the story that they've been telling for the past seven or eight years is being validated with other outlets. So these are some of the few truth tellers left on the planet who have a lot of integrity and they deserve a lot of support.

JoAnne: There's our website too.

Joe: And your website, yes. Shout it out there JoAnne.

JoAnne: Libyanwarthetruth.com.

Joe: Right, we'll put up a link.

James: The DVD, we've added a CD update that has all the nasty tricks that they've done to us since then.

JoAnne: That's free with the DVD purchase on our website.

James: And that's how we support ourselves, sell that little DVD and donations. We want everybody to keep us in their prayers because we have been protected so many times from attacks by these guys. They planted drugs in our car and all kinds of stuff. But keep us in your prayers and support us.

JoAnne: And we thank you so much you guys.

James: Y'all got a great audience.

JoAnne: You have a great audience. You have a great show. We love you guys. You're wonderful.

Joe: Alright, thanks a million again. It's been great talking to you and hopefully we'll talk to you again. By then maybe we can talk to you again about a happier topic and maybe we'll have a talk about some happier times in Libya.

JoAnne: Yeah! It's very fluid in Libya right now so maybe in a week or two we can come back on to talk about it.

James: Maybe in the next few months we'll have a live event in Libya with y'all there with us.

Joe: Yeah! Why not?!

James: I've got a friend that makes Kevlar underwear so we'll all be good. [laughter]

Joe: Give me some of that stuff. Alright guys, thanks a million again and hopefully we'll talk to you again pretty soon but until then, stay safe.

JoAnne: You too.

James: God bless you. Thank you so much.