SOTT Podcast Logo
In our latest podcast, we discuss the nature of "Spirit Release Therapy" (SRT) and the early days of the Cassiopaean Experiment with Laura Knight-Jadczyk. Laura discusses how experiences she gained during her years as a hypontherapist led her to create a new type of more critical, scientific channeling.

Running Time: 00:49:42

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript of the show:

INTRO: No one would have believed in the beginning of the twenty-first century that this world was to be taken over by psychopathic liars and murders. Not many had heard of the word ponerology, or pathocracy. Man's vanity, ignorance, greed and selfishness had led him to the end of days. The end of days that had been carefully and secretly planned a long time ago. Some who did have some idea that all was not as it should be, scrambled frantically for truthful information in cyberspace, on the "world wide web", the Internet. But, alas the powers that be had known in advance that this would happen and had beforehand set up sites that would trap these truth seekers. Sites full of disinformation. Little bits of truth as bait on the outside but containing nothing but lies, manipulation and filth within. But, one new site did shine a light brightly in those dark days . . .

Joe: You're listening to Signs of the Times Podcast. This week are going to continue our discussion, Part Three of our discussion with Laura Knight-Jadczyk. Last week we discussed reincarnation. This week we'll continue our discussion into the Cassiopaean Experiment. I would just like to say that since today's podcast is the third of a three part series, and which we'll be building on information discussed in the previous two podcasts, it's probably advisable that people who haven't already listened to the previous two podcasts, to do so.

Laura: Yes, thank you Joe. This week we're going to change direction just a little bit. We've talked about some of my early experiences with hypnosis. We've talked about reincarnation, past live therapy. Last week we talked about the case where my son identified a past life as a pilot in Vietnam, and how that played out in the real world. We found some concrete evidence being found that was possibly true, or true with a certain degree of probability. You can't assign any kind of certainty to these things, and that's always the problem that we face. For example, even with my experiences over these many years doing many many past life regression sessions with individuals, with my personal experience with my son with my experiences of my own life where I have compelling memories of previous lifetimes. I still can't say with any absolute certainty that I quote believe unquote in reincarnation. There's always the possibility that even the most compelling evidence can be a fluke. It can be self-deception. There are lots of theories, that supposedly explain these things; most of them are a lot more ridiculous than saying just saying that reincarnation is a real probability. But in any event, at this point, I want to talk a little bit about how this work led me to the experiment that resulted in the Cassiopaean Transmissions.

Now the first think I want to say about how these experiences led me there, is that during all of these years, while I was doing this kind of work and also having a life along other lines, as in, having children, raising children, keeping house, cooking. Doing the normal things that everybody does, I was also reading because, with each case, each situation, there was a whole field of investigation that needed to be undertaken in order to either a) validate or to find some other way or means of assisting the person.

Whenever somebody presented themselves to me with a particular type of problem, I would always start digging into the research, into the available material to try to find out if anybody else had encountered this situation, and if so, what had they done? Now that the work that I cited before, Spirit Release Therapy by Bill Baldwin, came along in the '80s, early '90s, and I read this material with great interest. There were many things that I considered to be very close to what had I observed and experienced myself, but there were some other things that I didn't agree with, because I had made observations and had experiences that contradicted him. It didn't mean that what Baldwin was saying wasn't true, or wasn't what he had experienced, I'm just saying there were other observations and other experiences that suggested that some of the answers that he offered may not have been as cut and dried as he wanted to think they were. So I started doing this work with Spirit Release therapy in a more, shall we say, regular way. In other words, it was being done more and more often. Frequently I would not explain to the client anything about the technique. I would just say "I want to try a particular technique with you. If this is ok?" Now I thing I should probably talk a little bit about dissociation before we even get into explaining the technique, because dissociation is a term that describes certain states of consciousness, including hypnosis.

Dissociation is pretty much what it sounds like. It's being dissociated from a sharp self-awareness of your environment. Everybody dissociates to one extent or another, at one time or another, usually many times a day. When you're dissociated, you are not present in yourself.

Joe: Yeah, for me, a very good example of what you're talking about is an experience I've had on a number of occasions, and I think probably quite a lot of other people have also, it's when you're driving in a car for example, for brief periods, or perhaps one brief period throughout the journey, you kind of "come to yourself" and realize that the last, you know kind of minute, or half-mile or mile that you've actually traveled, you had no awareness of your surroundings through out that time you were off daydreaming somewhere else. But somehow you were able to navigate in the car and drive normally without actually being, as you say, present.

Laura: That's exactly so. And the same thing is true with you know, for example, daydreaming and gazing out the window and you more or less lose track of yourself, lose track of time, and suddenly you come back to yourself and you realize that you've been sitting there gazing out the window, or maybe somebody says to you "Penny for your thoughts. And you suddenly come back to a more immediate awareness, and you realize that for a number of minutes or longer, you have not been present in yourself. And there are other examples. For example, Martha Stout gives one in her book, The Myth of Sanity, of going to the movies. You go to the movies, and you sit there and you become very involved in the movie itself, and you identify with one or another of the characters or with each of them in turn, and while they are performing the action that you are seeing in front of your eyes, you are more or less in the movie with them. You feel your heart pounding when they are being chased by the villains. Or you feel their shock and horror when they suddenly realize that they've been betrayed. You go through all kinds of emotional twists and turns with the people or specific individual in the movie and while you are doing this you simply are not present in yourself. You may be eating popcorn and drinking a soft drink, holding the hand of someone who's gone to the movie with you. They're sitting beside you and you may squeeze their hand or cause them some pain or even slap your knee of you're upset, or tense up, or do all kinds of things in response to the movie, none of which have anything to do with your immediate awareness of your real, particular, actual environment. You are dissociated.

Many people dissociate frequently while they're watching television. So naturally the habit of dissociation among people who watch television can become very strong. There is another way of dissociating, and that's dissociation that comes via trauma. People who have been severely traumatized can dissociate completely to escape the trauma. This happens quite frequently with children who are abused, or with people who have suffered some kind of traumatic injury. They learn to dissociate. To become absent from themselves because being immediately present, being focused on the immediate environment, on your immediate bodily sensations, is just too painful or too traumatic. The problem is, as Martha Stout points out, that when a person dissociates, they are exercising a fairly natural function of the mind in such a way that each way that each time they do it, it becomes easier and easier to do it. And in fact, in some cases, it becomes habitual. Many people live most of their lives in a state of dissociation. They are only present in themselves and really aware of themselves and aware of their immediate environment occasionally. This can be a problem. Now for example, a child who dissociates due to trauma or abuse when they are very young, may find that it is more pleasant, because their real life is too painful for some reason and so they begin to dissociate habitually. This can be very problematic because they live their entire lives in another state of consciousness or they live most of their childhood in a different state of consciousness. And when they grow up, they have no memory of having lived through their childhood at all, because it belongs to other some other state of consciousness that is not in their conscious state of awareness.

Now when I learned about dissociation, I didn't really realize that there were people who simply could not remember their childhood. For example, I remember, I have a continuous stream of memory back to when I was an infant, sitting in a high chair and being fed. I was actually too young to hold a spoon and feed myself. But I have conscious memory of sitting in a high chair and being fed. I can remember the room and the people in the room, who was feeding me, many details and throughout my childhood there's a fairly continuous stream of memory. So for me it was very difficult to understand how somebody could not have a stream of memory back to infancy. And yet, there are people who do not. If you ask them do you remember your fifth birthday, or what were you doing when you were five, or where did you live when you were five, or related questions, they simply do not remember. And that struck me as being very, well in a sense, sad because it's like being robbed of part of your life, but of course if that part of your life is very unpleasant, as it is for most people who do this, then maybe it's not so bad at all.

Now having talked a little bit about dissociation, let me just say that when it comes to channeling, I think that most channeling is done in a state of dissociation, which means that somebody is not present in themselves. And from my point of view, that's not healthy. To not be fully in yourself at every moment is simply not healthy. It's disabling. And by definition, trance channeling or any kind of channeling where the individual is no longer present in themselves, you know, totally present in themselves, is something of a violation. It's a violation of their sovereign being. And so as I was dealing with these different clients and different people with different problems I was reading all this material and observing the clients, observing the people, listening to their situations, and also absorbing an enormous amount of material of channeled information, historical information, just literally hundreds of thousands of volumes of information, to help me understand exactly what was happening with the clients, with the world itself, with my own thoughts as I was observing these things. And these conclusions gradually formed in me throughout this period, so that little by little certain ideas began to emerge in my mind.

Now, let me go off to the side here and talk about some of the technical processes of Spirit Release Therapy. One of the first things I do, when I have an individual who has come to me for hypnotherapy is first of all, I interview them extensively to try to find out any problem areas in their lives. They may say, "I'm coming to you because I have low self-esteem and I would like to have more self-esteem and be more assertive because I am a door mat." or whatever. I want to know as much about that person as I possibly can because certainly there's a reason for that low self-esteem, and I would like to be able to find out if it's more than just something minor, and if possibly they do need to go to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, rather that just getting what could be called a quick fix with hypnotherapy.

So after I have this interview, then we arrange for the session and the individual is instructed to get very comfortable. One of the things about getting very comfortable is that you have to make sure that all of your limbs are in particular positions and that you're either warmly dressed, or you have a cover over you, because even if you think you are warm and even if you think that this is the way you normally sit to make yourself comfortable, what is comfortable under hypnosis and what is comfortable otherwise are two entirely different things. So I get the person comfortable and explain to them how to arrange their body so they won't be distracted by discomfort or by being cold, and then I begin the induction. Once the induction has been accomplished, I then instruct the individual to create a safe place in which to work. This is a little bit of an involved process, so I'm not going to go through it entirely, but once they have this safe environment; it's an internal construct, and they more or less build it from their own being, from the things that are inside them, from their nature. And once they are in this safe environment, then we begin the process of trying to identify you know, exactly what's going on.

Now the process of spirit release therapy relies heavily on something called differential diagnosis. Differential diagnosis is accomplished by asking a series of questions. And the questions start out with . . . For example, you know once you have established that there is something there other than the individual and whether or not that is a dissociated part of the individual, an attached entity, a past life memory, you know, I'm going to leave completely undecided, because I can't know, I don't know, and I don't think any body else knows. I only know that the various processes work whether you are working with past life therapy or spirit release therapy, there are a series of questions that you can ask that can establish whether something is or is not a part of the direct self awareness of the alleged occupant of the body. And here I'm not even going into discussing multiple personality because that's another issue altogether, although it is very much related to dissociation, it would take us too far a field to try to go into that right now. But in any event, once you start doing the differential diagnosis, you ask a series of questions. The first thing is, you may ask this alleged dissociated part whether it's a past life memory, whether it's an attached entity, you know, as I said, I'm not going to say for certain. I'm only going to say that the process follows a certain course.

Joe: Even that point, where there's an ability on the person who's conducting the session, whether it be hypnotherapy in terms of past life regression or spirit release, or if it's channeling. If someone is dissociated, let's say when they channeling, when they're lying, essentially comatose or in another state of awareness, unable to interact with the process, obviously in that state they cannot involve themselves directly in asking questions and deciphering and then looking at the information that is coming through and deciding to move in a different direction or to do anything. They're simply, as you've kind of suggested, at the mercy of whatever entity let's call it is being channeled.

Laura: When you're dissociated, you're no longer on guard. You're as vulnerable as if you are asleep. That strikes me as not a very benevolent exchange. So that if a person is required to give up their self awareness as an exchange with some alleged higher being who wants to use them and talk through them, that alleged being cannot be by definition benevolent, because that being is making that individual vulnerable. Now the argument may be made that the benevolent being is going to take over their voice or their physical structure for a period of time in order to speak through them and the benevolent being will watch out for them while this is happening. But still they are being asked to give up themselves.

So the problem is you begin to ask a series of questions. One of the first questions you might ask of this alleged entity is "Have you ever had a body of your own other than the body in which you are now located?" So this is your first question. Now the entity, and of course you're asking these questions through the individual. You ask the individual who is there, you ask them to ask this question of the entity, and report back to you the answer. Very often as you go through this process, the alleged entity will essentially take over the body of the client and begin answering directly without benefit of the intermediary.

So for example, I would say to my client Mary, "Mary can you ask the entity . . ." and like I sad I'm not going to talk about how you identify it, from the beginning that there is something there, but if you have identified that there is something there that's an aberrant energy construct, then you ask the client "Ask the entity 'Have you ever had a body of your own, other than the body of Mary?'" And Mary will then be silent for a moment or two while she's mentally asking this question. Sometimes they ask it out loud, it varies. And the answer comes back yes or no. Well, just because the answer is "No", doesn't necessarily mean it's not an entity of some sort because there are apparently entities that do not incarnate into physical bodies. They forever are half-formed or misbegotten if you want to use a kind of a pejorative term. But they don't have sufficient energy to hold, occupy, or operate a physical body. So they have never incarnated, and yet they are a certain sort of consciousness that floats around and attaches here and there.

So you either get the answer yes or no. If it's "No" that the entity never had a body of its own then you go another direction. You begin to try to find out if it's just an energy construct, if it's a dissociated part of Mary that formed during a traumatic event in her past, or if it's one of these so-called "misbegotten" entities that never formed sufficiently to manage a body, then you continue on in that direction. If the answer is "Yes", then you go along a different ways. So in other words, asking this question is bringing you to a fork in the road. It's either yes or no, and depending on which fork you take, then a whole other series of questions must be asked.

Now suppose the entity says "Yes, I had a body of my own." The next question you would want to ask is "When did you occupy that body last?" In other words, when did that body die? And of course you can't even assume that that body died because they've left, and left the body alive. It may be on a life support system in a hospital system somewhere! So you ask when they were in that body the last, and reach another fork. The answer will either be a date, or whatever, and then you ask the next question you know, "Why did you leave?" and the answer obviously is going to be because "I died", or "the body died", or some other answer. And you continue on this way until you establish where, when and how this entity came to be with Mary. And we've talked about this a little bit in a previous discussion when I explained about individuals that had attached entities that would frequency-lock on some part of their body because there was a frequency that was similar to their own at the time of death.

So having been through this process of differential diagnosis hundreds of times, it occurred to me that this is a very useful process to use if someone wanted to, say for example, experiment with channeling. Because I was reading all these books at the same time that I was doing this work, and many of them were alleged to be channeled material and I have an entire bookcase full of them where an entity would come along and suddenly begin to speak through the vocal organs of this person or that person, or they would go into a trance and their spirit guides would take over and start talking or they would start out with automatic writing, or they would graduate from automatic writing to voice channeling, or they would start off with a ouji board and they would graduate to voice channeling or direct channeling or whatever. They would go into trances. Any number of things would happen, and the thing that I saw that was NOT happening, was that nobody was doing a differential diagnosis. EVER. [J: Hm.] Something just came along and hopped up on the soapbox of somebody's psyche and started pontificating and it was channeling.

Joe: Well of course, when such a thing happens, people are so overwhelmed or taken away with the whole phenomenon that they're not in a position to, or generally they're not in a position to be critical about it or to be objective about it. They're just going to be "WOW". There's the "wow" factor, and they're just going to let it happen.

Laura: "Oh yeah! There's something talking to me! And it's not me and it knows more than I know and wow isn't that far out!? And isn't that cool and . . . ."

Joe: And it must be, must be better than me and it must know more than me and it must be [L: Yeah] an evolved, superior being . . .

Laura: I mean it's Lord Sananda, it's Jesus Christ, it's Yahweh, I mean who knows?

Joe: And it must be the names you know, once you get the names, I mean, Lord Sananda, who's going to question Lord Sananda, you know.

Laura: So there I was looking at this and the thought was forming in my mind that nobody was questioning this kind of activity. Nobody was doing a differential diagnosis. Then of course, the problem was that if you're going to do a differential diagnosis, who is going to do it? I mean, am I going to find somebody who's willing to spend most of their lives unconscious while I do endless differential diagnoses with endless numbers of entities who come and go. You know, one comes along and I say "Oh, nope, you're not good enough. Toss you out." [J: Next!], Yeah, "Next applicant!" You know, that's not a very, [chuckles] that's not a very profitable activity for somebody!

So then the next question that came up was "How can a person go at doing this with themselves?" In other words, to be always constantly fully present in yourself. Absolutely no dissociation, and to be able to contact that level of consciousness simultaneously, and do your own differential diagnosis. Well of course I was asking some questions that I don't think anybody else has really asked. So the next thing that occurred to me as I was doing these spirit release therapy sessions and past life therapy sessions was the extraordinary similarity of the symbology, the imagery. For example, in the process of doing a differential diagnosis you would ask the client to describe the appearance of these aberrant energy forms. Now these questions are asked in a completely open way. The person has not had any instruction. They've not read any books about this kind of therapy. They don't have any idea what it is they are supposed to be answering. They have no pre-formed or pre-set opinions about it. Most of them had no idea whatsoever what kind of experimental process I was undertaking, so they were completely uncontaminated subjects. And yet again and again, when I would ask these questions, they were coming up with the same kind of images.

For example, I would ask a woman "Do you see an energy that is not part of your natural psychic frequency pattern or your vibrational pattern?" and they would say, "Yes".

And I'd say, "Is it located in any particular part of your body?"

Well, "Yes".

"Where is it located?"

"In my heart."

"What does it look like?"

and the answer would come back "It looks like a green candle."

Well, a green candle is an interesting image, but the thing is that I had more than one person who had green candles. And it seemed that green candles in the area of the heart represented jealousy.

Then there were things like, people would see images of these energy patterns and they would say, "It looks like a bracelet, a silver bracelet." Or "It looks like a crown on my head and it's got pressure on me. It contains my thoughts." And you would find out that this was a particular energy that was formed from a dissociative period when the individual was a child. It had nothing to do with an entity. It had nothing to do with an attachment or a past life. It had simply to do with a dissociated state when the individual was a child and they would dissociate and imagine themselves wearing a crown, and the crown would contain all of their brains in their head because they felt like they were so upset that their brains were going to spill out. And so this habit of dissociation would lead them to build energy into this crown on their head, and so whenever they felt the least bit stressed out, they would go into this dissociated state, and they would have this crown on their head which gradually grew bigger and bigger and began pressing on them because it was interfering with their lives because they was going into the dissociated state more and more often and spending less and less time in full conscious awareness. So it grew and they didn't.

So there were all kinds of these symbolic type images that people were talking about. And it struck me that there's someplace, there's some reality where these images exist. And of course I thought about Carl Jung and his theory of archetypes and the collective unconscious. So naturally I wondered if there was any way to go to, or communicate directly with this collective unconscious. Then after another period of time, I began to wonder if this so-called collective unconscious, this realm of these archetypal images might not be a, shall we say, a cloud or a veil itself? That it was a veil between our reality and some other reality where thought was even more pure. Where jealousy was no longer represented by a green candle, because of course a green candle is a representation of something that is in this material world, whereas jealousy is an abstract concept. So I began to think of this realm of archetypes as something like a film through which a light is projected into our reality and somewhere at some point, it congeals and our world becomes real and solid as we experience it. So I wanted to formulate a way to get through this cloud, this veil. To penetrate and pierce the veil and approach the realm of pure ideas, of pure thought. And those were the ideas that were in my mind when I began to really, seriously consider undertaking a channeling experiment.

Because I mean, think about it, with all the hundreds and hundreds of books out there of channeled material covering every subject under the sun, sometimes ten times over. Why in the world would anybody come along and undertake a channeling experiment which they knew was going to involve a lot of time and effort if they could just go down to the local bookstore and by the latest channeled book and get the information that they need? You know, why re-invent the wheel? Other people were channeling, and that was the problem because as I read all these channeled books it just. . .

Well for one thing it didn't reflect reality. They would talk about a world that was so unreal. About ideas that were so unreal and so disconnected from this reality that it was impossible to believe that these were higher being, because certainly if they were higher beings they should have greater knowledge than we do which means that they should have knowledge of us and the difficulties which we as human beings face. But they didn't seem to have this. Oh they would say, "If you just think nice thoughts." and you know, do impossible feats of being good under the most incredibly difficult and trying of circumstances, then everything would be alright. It wasn't really much different from standard organized religions. Just have faith, just do this, this and this, you know, follow these rules and then when your dead, when you come over to this other side everything will be fine then, you know. Yeah, I'm sorry that your life is so screwed up but you know, where you are, there's nothing we can do about that. Don't worry about it, just turn your mind to this higher world and everything when you're dead will be fine.

Joe: Can I ask the question, why would anybody want to you know, reinvent the wheel in terms of asking these questions or engaging themselves in a kind of a channeling experiment when there's all this literature out there already available, but it seems to me that all of the questioning that you did, and your experience with hypnotherapy and past life regression and spirit release techniques furnished you with that information or that knowledge that it's not a simple matter. That there are, there can be many different origins of what people think, or believe to be entities as you've just described. So that's a very good reason for someone with that information to want to find out for themselves, to undertake their own experiment with all of this awareness of the possible pitfalls or the traps. It strikes me as a good analogy, would be "Well, why would I want to go to Iraq when I can just pick up the Washington Post, or the New York Times [L: And read lies.] . . it's right there, right?" I mean, once I'm aware that the mainstream media is not exactly truthful all the time, well that's a very good reason for me to want to do it myself, and find out myself.

Laura: Yeah, and 'going to Iraq is' really not a bad analogy, because investigating such things can be problematical at best. And as you mentioned earlier, a lot of people are just after the experience. They want to have, you know, an experience, they want a phenomenon, they want something that is just really extraordinary. Experience junkies.

But what I was reading in terms of channeled material wasn't really so hot, and then of course there were many of the things I'd read from the old A.S association, the Society for Psychical Research, the SPR in UK, that indicated that you know, life after death wasn't all sweetness and light and honey and roses. But there was, those things weren't being played up. People were just pointed on their pointed hats and just channeling away and accepting every word that came down the pike from any spirit that came along and said "Hi. I'm your best friend. I'm your spirit guide. I want to talk through you and we're going to make millions selling channeling books."

So that was you know, I had a pretty skeptical attitude for what was passing as channeling and certainly you know, at least the scientific skepticism that had guided an organization such as the SPR and even mediums like Eileen Garrett had been lost. People had been lost. People had become so enthralled by this process that they had lost any sense of proportion whatsoever. And they weren't asking the right questions and they were just taking everything at face value. So these were the ideas that were taking shape over this period of about twenty-five, thirty years before I decided to actually formulate an experimental protocol and began the process of trying to do it.

Well naturally I decided on using a board type object for an number of reasons, the main one being that you are fully conscious and of course staying fully conscious and fully aware at all times was part of the experimental protocol, because it wasn't going to do anybody any good if people sat down and put their fingers on this little planchette that slides around the board and started going off into trances. That was verboten. And if anybody gave any indications that they were you know, going off

Joe: Like falling face down on the table or something?

Laura: Well, then the experiment was terminated at that moment.

So I also knew that I was going to have to do differential diagnosis and I was going to have to do it repeatedly over and over and over again, because I was going to have to deal with any loops in my subconscious as well as in the subconscious's of the other participants in the experiment. So that's a pretty tall order, to run out all the loops in your own mind, the loops in the minds of the people who are participating, people who are sitting in the room because of course that can all be picked up. And run out all of the past life loops and any floating entity loops and so forth and differential diagnosis every single dad gum one of 'em, over and over and over and over again. And this is what we did for two years. Differential diagnosis: one after the other after the other, endless, endless, endless. It became almost formulaic, and we actually got to the point where we could tell after just a few words if the loop, the entity or whatever it was that we were encountering at that particular moment should be indulged a little longer, or should we just you know, terminate that contact immediately.

Joe: So the majority of the entities let's call them, during that two year period, you're saying that you discovered that they were just, as you call them "dead dudes" , and that they had, that there was no difference between any of them and there was nothing really any of them could offer?

Laura: Well, that's pretty much it. I have a whole box full of notebooks that record all of these exchanges for a couple of years and the, you know, some of them were interesting, some of them were entertaining, some of were funny and some were terribly, terribly tragic. I'll give you just a few examples.

You know you start out first of all and you ask, "Is anybody there?" And the answer is yes or no, or there's no answer, or whatever, but anyhow, eventually there you get some movement and then finally it may, depending on the energy and of course you're fully aware and fully alert and you're sensing this energy. "What does it feel like?" you know. And you're constantly observing yourself, observing your bodily reactions, observing your mental and emotional reactions to the energy. So the answer would be yes, and you'd say "Do you have name?" and the answer is yes or no. "What's your name?" and then you get a name or something. In one case it was something like you know, Sally. "Well, Sally, did you ever have a body, you know, a physical body?" Yes, "What happened, when were you last in that body?" And you get an answer "Well, I don't know." "Well why don't you know?" And then you get the answer spelled back to you, "I want my mommy." And you say "Who's your mommy? And "My mommy's dead." "How did your mommy die?" and you go on through this discussion with this spirit or this entity and after a little bit of back and forth you understand that it's a child who was killed in an accident along with the mother, and the mother supposedly, according to the theory, "went into the light' and the child didn't and the child got lost and is wandering around looking for it's mommy. And you then gently explain to the child, "Well you know that Mommy has gone into the light, "Do you see the light? "Yes, I see the light." "Well why don't you go into the light?" "Well, I'm afraid." and then you explain to the entity "Well, your mommy's in the light. If you just go to the light then you'll find your mommy" And then you ask the entity well, "Are you willing to do that?" "Yes, I want to go. I want to be with my mommy." And you say well "Go see your mommy." And then after a few minutes you say, "Is anybody there?" and there's no answer and then a few more minutes go by, and you ask again "Is anybody there?" and somebody else comes along and says "Yes." and you say "Do you have name?" and they say "Yes. My name is Jack." And "Jack, what happened to Sally?" "Well, Sally went into the light. I was waiting my turn."

So these are the kinds of dialogues that we were having hour after hour, once a week, every week for two years.

Joe: Well, it seemed to me, thinking about it that differential, engaging in that differential diagnosis as you describe it, would be crucial to anybody, for anybody who's planning or thinking about engaging in any kind of channeling because, as you're describing, if you don't ask the question, these kinds of questions . . . I mean how are you to know that it isn't either coming from some part of someone in the room beside you, or an entity that's standing behind you in the room [L: Sure.] or coming from your dog for example. If you didn't ask these questions, how do you know if you're not channeling your dog??[L: chuckling] If you just simply get something that comes straight through that says "Hello" and then you say "OK, tell us some stuff." and you know, I mean, it strikes me [L: That's exactly the point,] it strikes me as it's a more scientific way to proceed on the subject, whereas the other way which involves more just blind belief that if something comes through it has to be you know, superior, a superior intelligence. That's more like a religious way of doing it..[L: Oh sure.] The scientific approach is to question and to refine and to test theories until you can, right up to the limit.

Laura: Well, of course, And you have to keep in mind that also that even while we were going through this process that there was no belief involved. We were using the spirit release protocol via a, via a board-type instrument with two or more people involved, so that there was no possibility of any single person's subconscious mind controlling or directing the activity, and everybody was being sincere in their attempts to not lead or direct or in any way influence the outcome.

So we were having these extremely entertaining, and as I said, sometimes sad, dialogues with you know, what we would call "dead dudes" , but we didn't necessarily believe. We were using the protocol, we were using it as a working hypothesis and we not making any judgments about the truth or the validity of reincarnation of dead dudes or so forth, at that point. We were just simply working with the technique. And it was extremely, extremely educational, because there was, it was like having little mini-conversations with thousands of different individuals and each individual was uniquely individualistic and that was you know, part of the information that we were gathering which suggested that very likely we were communicating with individual entities, because of the fact that there were just so many distinct characters that came along and came through. There were, there was one that I remember in particular who must have been an old hippie because he was just saying "Oh love is the answer. Grooooovy." and everything we asked him was "Oh, don't worry about a thing. It's groooovy." and I mean it was, it was quite entertaining. So that was pretty much, pretty much the process, but as I said, there were endless variations. There were guys that came along, or entities that came along that identified themselves as aliens or space brothers or "I'm talking to you from the planet Aquila in the constellation blah, blah, blah and would start delivering a whole load of nonsense.

And at that point you know, when you start dealing with that type of entity, then it's a little bit more challenging because you are no longer dealing with little lost, you know, little lost girls or dead hippies. You're dealing with something a little bit more cunning and clever. And of course when we reached that stage I realized we'd moved up a few levels. So then we had to begin to be a little more clever in our questioning and those kinds of questions were a little more involved, but we proceeded and continued and persisted until the eventful day when the Cassiopaean Transmissions began.

Joe: And that was the day that the Cassiopaean Experiment began in earnest.

Laura: Yes, that's the day it began and all of those details are discussed thoroughly on my website,, and Cassiopaea is spelled c-a-s-s-i-o-p-a-e-a, which is the way the Cassiopaeans themselves spell it interestingly. So if you want to know the details of what resulted after two years of differential diagnosis, tedious and exhausting though it may have been, it was necessary and it was definitely worth it.