This week on Sott Talk Radio we spoke Jon Ryman, creator of the excellent short documentary called 'White Widow' - The Samantha Lewthwaite Conspiracy.

The so-called "white widow" grabbed the headlines over a protracted period last year for her alleged leadership of the attack on Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya. Samantha Lewthwaite first rose to 'fame' as the alleged 'wife' of alleged London '7/7' tube bomber, Germaine Lindsay, and since then has been a veritable rising star in the phony world of Islamic terrorism, particularly in Africa.

As with so many other supposed 'Muslim terror leaders', the story of Lewthwaite appears to be one large fantasy that reveals disturbing insights into how British, Israeli and US intelligence agencies run the bogus 'war on terror' from behind the scenes.

Running Time: 01:55:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript:

Joe: Hi and welcome to SOTT Talk Radio. I'm Joe Quinn and with me this week are my co-hosts, Niall Bradley -

Niall: Hello everyone!

Joe: And Jason Martin.

Jason: Hey everybody!

Joe: We are talking this week, as you've probably gathered, about phony jihadi terrorists and how ubiquitous they are these days.

Jason: Faux-hadis?

Niall: [Laughter]

Joe: Yeah, yeah. We're trying to actually get our guest on the line, we're having a few problems. So I'm going to hand over, just for a second, to my beautiful co-host here just to broach the topic a little bit while I get him on the line, okay?

Jason: We're going to chew the fat here about the faux-hadis.

Niall: The faux-hadis. Yeah, well - they're faux... but they are real... but they are faux!

Jason: But here's the thing - the thing that really struck me in looking up the various different topics, is how old this tactic really is. Agent provocateurs, all the way back to the Labour Movement, late 1800s, early 1900s.

So this whole idea of the honeypot, or the honey trap, and the agent provocateur has been used since well, as far back as we can remember really. And in this particular format, a notable example is say, for instance, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: Who was just suspiciously able to travel all over the place, defect to Russia and then show up again in America as if nothing bad had happened. It was just really suspicious circumstances.

So we definitely know that this is a well-established tactic.

Niall: Yeah. How did the war information - did they even deal with that?

Jason: Well, having not read the report, I don't actually know but I do know that it's -

Niall: But that's not exactly something you gloss over at the height of the Cold War.

Jason: Well, I think that we should not underestimate the war-in commission's ability, and American politicians' ability to gloss over things when they make these kinds of reports.

Niall: Oh man, Building 7 in the 9/11 commission report -

Jason: What Building 7?

Niall: Exactly. It just doesn't exist.

Well, our guest today; he's made a really, really cool video which you've probably seen by now; or if you haven't, make sure you check it out; about Samantha Lewthwaite. You may be wondering, "Well, who is she?" I wouldn't blame you for not remembering because she's just one of many names that have popped up as a 'face of terror' in the last ten years.

But our guest decided to pull on this thread and just follow what we have been told publicly about her - her involvement with various Jihadist groups in the UK and in Africa.

Jason: Yeah, the coolest thing about the video though is that it was all told through official completely mainstream media reports, interviews and accounts. He doesn't bring any conspiracy stuff into it at all, it's just what they said and what you can divine from it.

Niall: You get a lot of fun out of doing that. But more importantly, if you really did try to build the picture for yourself based on what you are being told, you would go insane if you tried to actually believe it. You cannot not look at the sequence of things she's supposed to have done, things she's supposed to have said, places she's supposed to have been and go, "But that's impossible." You know what I mean?

Jason: Yeah, because it's really hard to explain why it's so impossible because we have a generation now that has grown up and their largest experience of the world is from movies.

And the plots of movies where these terrorists, for some strange reason, he's the son of a goat herder that lives in this third-world country. But magically, he can just get fake passports and travel around the world and fly on jets all the time, right?

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: So we're kind of used to this narrative that is really contradictory.

Niall: Yeah. She's trained in Jujitsu.

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: Firearms, you name it. Espionage.

Jason: By a bunch of veterans on the desert or something.

Niall: Or what's really implausible about this case study is that Samatha Lewthwaite was a young woman; young mother, who had four kids in the course of being, I wouldn't say a mastermind of international terror. But we're certainly supposed to believe that she was a fairly high level operative facilitator; at least financially.

At one point in Africa, she's supposed to be the proprietor or the renter of up to 10 luxury pads in Nairobi at the time of the, what was it called?

Joe: The Westgate Shopping...

Niall: The Westgate Shopping Mall attack massacre.

Jason: yeah, whatever.

Niall: Which was such a dubious event in its own right.

Jason: The idea of a white, single mother running around Kenya, Somalia with her four kids; these are considered to be some of the most chaotic, destabilised areas on the African continent. She's running around with the al-Shabaab, whatever they are, in Somali land; and I'm just like...?

Niall: Al Sha Boo.

Jason: And aren't we supposed to be told, on the other side that Islam and Muslims specifically are like these ultra-radical Sharia law; women have to walk around with veils and stuff. And they are not supposed to talk to anybody with their husbands, and they are supposed to be sitting at home?

And yet, here's a white woman from the West going around and organising terrorist attacks with like these fundamentalist Islamists. I find that very incredible, to be quite honest; based on the image that they present of these ultra-Sharia law, 'let's stone women for showing their ankles' type of people. Which, obviously, of course, is not the truth either but they are trying to present that particular angle.

So, nothing that they say adds up.

Niall: Well, on that front, that's the ostensible raison d'etre for ISIS -

Jason: Right.

Niall: In Syria and Iraq: that 'our goal, our political aim, is to have our own state; Islamic caliphate, in which Sharia law is implemented.'
Now I've been reading commentary from people who know something about Sharia law and they are saying, "These guys don't have a clue what Sharia law is about, at all." And that's easily shown in their behaviour.

Jason: Well, yeah. They are not Muslims. It's just the absolute plain fact. I don't buy it, I just simply don't buy it. These guys have all the markings of a band of psychopathic mercenaries; Western influence. They don't seem to be going around 'being Muslim'; they just say it.

What we see is all these videos; they say, "Allāhu Akbar" or something like that, right? And that's it, that's the only signal of Muslim-ness that you see because they don't dress like them, they don't act like them. They are just walking around with AK47s and saying, "Allāhu Akbar."

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: It's such an obscene thing.

Niall: It's like that's the extent of their religious...

Jason: That's the extent of their understanding of Islam.

Niall: Yeah. "Allāhu Akbar."

Jason: That's it.

Niall: Because -

Jason: And suddenly that makes you a Muslim.

Niall: There are stories about young women from Europe and the Middle East flying into Syria to 'service the Jihadis'. Coming back pregnant with something like an 80% STD rate.

Jason: Yeah. Right.

Niall: It's just the most anti-spiritual thing going down there. It's just a free-for-all.

Jason: Completely. Right.

Niall: It's just - anyway. So yeah, into this mix, you've got characters like even white western women who are involved in this.

Jason: That's suspicious.

Niall: And just last week, there was a court case in the UK. Not related to Sam Lewthwaite but I think it involved two other British women, maybe of Pakistani descent I'm not sure. But it was classic of these kinds of tales.So they get involved with the wrong crowd back home in the UK.

Jason: Right.

Niall: Start doing drugs. Next thing they know, they are shipping cash, physical cash and drugs to Syria for the boys over there.

Jason: Which is a very Muslim Sharia law kind of thing!

Niall: Oh yeah.

Jason: Because that Sharia law, man, it's all about stoning women for showing their ankles but doing the coke and blow and having sex orgies is what they are all about, right? That's ridiculous.

Niall: So I think in this case, I think the court case finished last week. And she was let off on the grounds that she was manipulated into it.

Jason: Right, yeah.

Niall: So, there is a lot of that going on. Whatever about court cases, nothing ever gets to court because, a British MP; his name escapes me, he's from Manchester maybe, he told ITV News in the UK recently: "This is absurd. We have thousands," he quoted, "thousands of young British people freely leaving the country to wage Jihad in Syria and - what - the intelligence services don't know about it?"

Jason: That's ridiculous. There is this story also of these two French teenage girls who just recently were arrested, I think it actually might have been....

[Musical Interlude]

Joe: Hi folks, sorry we went offline there for a minute. We've been trying to contact Jon Ryman. We actually did call him, but as soon as we could get him on the line...

Niall: We're being dropped.

Joe: Yeah, we're being dropped. So it's like we can only have one - and this is a really annoying function of Skype, but it hasn't happened before. But it's happening now. We were previously able to contact one-on-one person, but now it's either/or. Either we're connected to you, the listeners, or we're connected to our guest.

So - hang on, okay. Jon is calling back.

[Musical Interlude]

Jon, can you hear us? Okay, yeah. Okay, so people are back on. And what I really need to know, and I'm just going to check if people can hear you. We have a chat room going on so our listeners - let's just talk. Carry on Jon from where you were.
Jon, we're not actually on. We're online, but people aren't actually hearing you. I'm sorry about this.
Yep, okay. That's great. Okay, do that.

For people who are listening, I'm just talking to Jon here and he's trying to get in.
Okay, give that a go, Jon. If you can call in, then that's great. If not, then we'll reschedule, Thanks.

Pierre: So for the listeners, Jon is trying to connect via another account, a Facebook account. And we'll see if it works, because with the two previous email accounts it was not working. If it works, fine; if it doesn't work, we'll have to apply plan B.

Joe: I don't know, I think there is some kind of forces of darkness working here.

Pierre: Yeah.

Joe: Because I actually had -

Yeah, we still have you there. Our listeners are hearing what we're saying, but they are not hearing you. Alright, so give that a go and see if you can call into the show later on? Alright, thanks.

Pierre: Yeah. And the timing is odd because a few days ago our website,, was under attack, serious attacks. And now our radio show won't be broadcasted properly. So it means we're doing something right, I suppose.

Jason: Yeah.

Pierre: It's an encouragement.

Niall: Yeah, it was quite a week. I think SOTT went down twice. And the first time was the longest time down I can remember.

Jason: Yeah?

Niall: It was nearly two days. And I don't know how y'all were doing but I was just climbing the walls.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: Didn't know what to do!

Jason: Because there was all this great news, new stuff coming out.

Pierre: Exactly.

Niall: Yeah, it was a great news week too! Dammit.

Jason: Like with the Security Council and everything coming out. It was the perfect time for just some great commentary.

Pierre: Yeah. And actually it was at that time, a few days ago, when SOTT had never been this active.

Jason: Yeah.

Pierre: SOTT members and editors were publishing a lot of very interesting comments and information.

Niall: Indeed, yeah! We're really growing.Yeah, we've got so many new editors from so many different countries around the world. SOTT's going to be coming out in some more languages soon.

Pierre: True.

Niall: Dutch, Danish, Greek, Finnish, I believe?

Pierre: Yes, international.

Niall: So yeah. They can keep us down but not out.

Jason: You can't stop the signal Mal. You can never stop the signal! {Quote from the movie Serenity}

Pierre: And these kinds of attacks are sort of a double-edged sword. Because you can bring this website down, sure, but we put it back on. And it can give us extra motivation.

Jason: Well, technically, for a while we were sitting there thinking, "Who are we? Nobody cares about us." But apparently they care enough, if there is definitive proof that it was an attack. So there was no way it could have happened by accident.

So, that just kind of validates pretty much everything we do and what we have been saying all along. And it's like, why would anyone exert any effort to bring our side down if it wasn't telling the truth?

Pierre: Who attacked us?

Jason: What?

Pierre: Who?

Jason: Well, I don't know who attacked us.

Niall: 'They'.

Jason & Pierre: They?

Niall: 'They Live!' {movie}

Pierre: Well as a matter of fact, over the last few days, we focused our coverage and analysis on Ukraine. A lot of material was about Ukraine. And we were pointing the finger at the US, at the US oligarchs.

Niall: Well, the big news this week is that Kiev has had its ass kicked.

Pierre: Big time.

Niall: Big time. Their response was just to randomly shell Donetsk. No one was killed because people have vacated the city centre, but they destroyed the train station.

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: But that's just one of these flippant responses. When I say a defeat, I think thousands of Kiev forces were surrounded by the rebels.

Pierre: Yeah.

Niall: At which point, Putin says, "I call on the rebels to make a safe corridor to allow the Ukrainian army through to Russia, where we will safely repatriate them back to where they belong."

And people in the West heard that, and it was poo-pooed as stupid Russian propaganda. They have actually started doing that. They are surrendering in and they are surrendering weapons and they are going to Russia to be fed, clothed and sent back home.

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: It's totally remarkable. It's not just that one side is right and one side is wrong, and kind of most of the time, and there is a bit of grey in the middle. It really is like, if you hear a NATO/CIA/US government, EU statement about Russia - you can safely just invert it, and you've got the truth.

Pierre: Yeah, totally inverted. Totally inverted. And to summarise, on one side you have the US that back up an invasion, war, bombing citizens and providing bombs and weapons.

On the other side, you have Russia that try to defend citizens by providing humanitarian aid. Geometrically opposed strategies - mercy on one side, warfare and belligerent, aggressive behaviour on the other.

Jason: Well, the most interesting thing is what a failing strategy in the long term that always is. Because, like Martin Luther King said, when you win, you have to go back to living with these people. They are going to be your neighbours. They are going to be all around you.
How you win is at least as important as how you fight. So America's really not adhering to this. They are not being very merciful. They are being very belligerent. And the huge, immense and unnecessary and, I think, practically ineffective propaganda campaign against Russia.

Because you see on all social media, you see everywhere that the views of the average man on the street are far different than the one that is being promoted on the mainstream media.

Pierre: Yeah. And that's, maybe here we are touching the limits of the psychopathic mind. It's possible probably to rule, to be a leader and to find a lot of win-win solutions, where all the countries are to some extent preserved, by their benefits. But the psychopathic mind doesn't work that way.

I think this concept of a win-win co-operation are quite remote to the way they think. For them, the world is us versus them. It's about oppression, it's about domination, it's about power; it's about violence.

Jason: Control as well. And it's asking for something that they can't have because you can't have control of everything. And in trying, they end up destroying themselves and whatever political system they have infected - in this case, the infection is particularly strong in the United States but is also present, I think, in a lot of European countries.

But ultimately, they end up destroying, and they have throughout all of history; they end up destroying the host like a virus.

Niall: Uh-huh. Well, a big upcoming event is this NATO summit in Cardiff.

Jason: The great wall of NATO?

Niall: Yeah. They've spent $18,000,000 making this ring of steel around the city. It's really just the next step from what they have done before. I think the last NATO summit was in Chicago, and they did a similar set-up - just wall the place in. Keep everything back by two miles.

So this is coming up. And it also comes after, of course, the UN security meeting which was called - like I suspect - because they realised how badly they're losing the situation in Ukraine. So they went all out, middle of the week, right when SOTT went down, with this "Russia invades Ukraine" hysteria; called this UN meeting; Nothing has come of it, of course, because Muslims are like "evidence, please?" It's just to create a kind of media event, to be able to get CNNBC, the whole lot of them, screaming in unison, "Russia invades Ukraine."

That's kind of all they have left, just to lie as - whoever lies loudest, wins.

Pierre: Yeah.

Niall: That's the remnant of their strategy at this point.

Pierre: Yeah, you're right. I think that being the loudest is what is called the strategy now because they don't have the truth for sure. Or they don't want to reveal the truth, so they have all those lies.

And the only power they have is this control of mainstream medias. So they hammer again and again the same lies. And in a way, they program an individual. They hope that this constant repetition of the same lies will fill the brain of listeners, of users, and become the reality of individuals.

But I am wondering if it's working because we talked about the first growing chasm between the West and the East - ideologically, politically, territorially; economically. There is also, what you described before the NATO meeting, is also an example of the growing chasm between the people and the elites. So you can wonder to what extent their strategy is leading to victory.

Niall: Well, you see, you can smell the desperation.

Pierre: Yeah.

Niall: And I think there may be a media false flag terror attack to cement, to remind the people why they need us. That ring of steel around Cardiff and jets flying overhead might not quite do it.

The last time, there was a massive, massive security operation for the G8 meeting in Scotland in 2005. And smack in the middle of it, the London bombings happened. I would not be surprised if somebody tried something this week.

Joe: Oh yeah, that was amazing. Amazingly cynical - they were all up in Scotland; Bush and Blair and all the Heads of States there. It was the G20, wasn't it?

Niall: No... maybe.

Joe: Maybe, anyway, it was the G8. There was a load of them and they were all just - maybe I thought it was the G20 because it was the G8 Day. They were discussing, the major aspect of it was forgiving third world debt, because at the time there was a big concert to coincide with this G8 meeting.

Niall: Live8.

Joe: Live8, yeah. And it was Bob Geldof and the usual suspects. Bono, 'Bon-oh'!

Niall: Bon-no!

Jason: Bon-oo.

Joe: Bonehead!

And yeah, they were - the whole momentum was just to forgive third world debt, for the major capitalist Western countries to forgive the debt. And that was just shoved way off the table. It wasn't just shoved off the table, it was kicked out the door and thrown into the moat.

Jason: The end to submission, yeah.

Joe: Thrown into the moat and eaten by crocodiles because of the 7/7 bombings. And that was like, "Wow, coincidence?" That was like, "You guys looked out there!"

Jason: That just kind of brings up back to this Samantha Lewthwaite character, and the London bombings.

Joe: Well, absolutely, yeah. The basic story here, and hopefully we'll have Jon back on. Maybe not today or this week, if he's unable to call in, but on another day.

But, yeah, Samantha Lewthwaite - it's just a ridiculous story. It's ridiculous even by the standards of Muslim terrorist narratives about how it all happens. You've seen the Bin Laden's and the Zarqawi's and their predecessors and stuff and their descendants.

Jason: Mohamed Atta.

Joe: Mohamed Atta and all these people. All of it having extremely dubious...

Jason: Well actually, considering how low the standards for Western media narratives are, this one might actually be kind of above their standards.

Joe: She was on the scene, not as a Muslim terrorist, but as married to a Muslim terrorist.

Jason: 'I married the mob' type-of-thing.

Joe: To a guy called Germaine Lindsay, who was supposedly one of the London bombers. But then, her background was that she was brought up in Northern Island; She was a Protestant in Northern Island. Well, she wasn't brought up there; she was born there. She lived not far from where I grew up.But her father was a British military...

Niall: Counter-terrorist.

Pierre: Yeah.

Joe: Counter-terrorist dude for working with military...

Niall: Intelligence.

Joe: Military intelligence would be what he worked under.And immediately, that puts him in a very kind of shady world that, at the time that we are talking about because this is in the 70's that we are talking about; the stuff going on then was the kind of stuff that is happening now in the Middle East 'at home' type-of-thing. Essentially false flag attacks, terror attacks, were being perpetrated by the British military in Northern Island, and her father may well have been involved in it.

So they move to England and she grows up. And by the time she's 17 or something, she's converted to Islam.

Actually, let me check over here. Hi Jon, is that you?

Jon: Yes indeed, I'm in.

Joe: Absolutely, you're in! And I think everyone can hear you now. So we were just waxing kind of a - what were we waxing?

Jason: Wiseacring.

Joe: Wiseacring there. Aw, he's gone again. No way!

Jason: Oh my god.

Joe: There's something wrong here! Something is going on. I'm getting really suspicious, I'm going to get paranoid now.

Jason: Oh my god, it's MI5.

Joe: I'm getting my tinfoil hat on, seriously. The call just dropped again.

Pierre: You were talking about Samantha Lewthwaite?

Joe: Yeah. Well, maybe he's going to come back. No, I'm just freaked out by the fact that he's just popping in and out there, after all the trouble we've had already.

Anyway, Samantha Lewthwaite, 17, in England, converts to Islam.

Jason: Well, supposedly.

Joe: So the narrative goes. And then, is kind of like estranged from her family a little bit. Her parents can't handle it, whatever.
And, here's Jon again!

Jason: Well, what I found -

Joe: Jon?

Jon: Yo!

Joe: Yeah, your call just dropped there for some reason.

Jon: Yeah.

Joe: Let's see if we can keep it for a while. Will we do a test or do we just want to go for it?

Jon: Just go for it.

Jason: I think we just continue on.

Joe: Yeah, just go for it. Yeah, I'm sorry about this Jon; this has never happened before.

Jason: What's very interesting, she converted to Islam -

Joe: Yeah, we'll let Jon kind of get back on here. Jon, can you start again, more or less?

Jon: Yeah.

Joe: When we talked earlier on, I said that you had this Youtube channel and that you did this documentary about the "White Widow". And you don't really have much else in your background, at least not publicly, in terms of investigating these kinds of things. What is your background briefly, whatever you can share?

Jon: Weirdo. I would say, if I classify myself, I'm just an old fashioned weirdo. I haven't had, what I guess people would classify, a 'normal job' since my early twenties. I'm 46 now. I've been involved in the 'music business', in inverted commas, probably for the last 25 years. I've made a number of albums, singles. I come from what's known as the acid house background. I was involved heavily from '88, '89, '90 in that sort of background in London.

Very interested in electronic music, techno and that sort of thing. And just progressed from their really. In about the mid-'90s, I got involved in production music - which is, for lack of a better word, music for television. And took it from there; film work, TV work, that sort of thing.

So that's, I guess, what I've been doing. And that's allowed me to travel the entire planet; much more so than the average kind of traveller. The average traveller spends 2 weeks, a DJ spends 2 days. I would spend a minimum, to 2-3 months in a country. I'd do my work, I'd show up, I'd do my thing. I'd take the money and I'd just live there.

So also, coming from a weirdo family, they moved a lot anyway. My parents immigrated to Canada when I was a lot younger. And the thing about Canada is you can't, at the time - in the late '70s, you couldn't directly immigrate there. You had to come through a second country i.e. America.

So I spent some time in the States. I was married in the States in the late '80s, I lived in Los Angeles for a long time. Spent a lot of time in west coast of America, I guess, is a big stomping ground for me. But also spent a lot of time in places like Tennessee, been to New York countless of times, east coast of Canada, all over Europe; everywhere in Europe. Some parts of Africa. Haven't checked out Russia and China but that's on my hit list really.

Joe: Well, so a well-travelled musician and a jack of all trades, maybe?

Jon: Well, yeah. Really, I'm just a professional - if I'm really honest, I am a professional musician'. But you have to use inverted commas with that because it's not a profession or a trade. It's something that you may get some cash next week and you might be eating baked beans for a year, the next year. That's just the way it is.

Pierre: It's quite remote from this investigation you conducted about Samantha Lewthwaite. So how did you stumble upon this topic? How did you start this investigation? How did it come?

Jon: Well, if you haven't had - how can I put this? If you've spent more than probably 18 months out of permanent employment, your opinions and attitudes will change pretty rapidly.

And I know this because I talk to people, the same way you talk to people. One of the main reasons why the establishment is so keen on having people in full-time work is because if you're not in full-time work, and I'm not talking about having a part-time job and doing something on the side. What I'm talking about, being unemployed or having a career where you don't have a boss, you don't have to sign or clock in everyday, whatever.

If you spend more than a year and a half in that situation, your attitude really will change quite dramatically. And you'll start questioning a lot of things. I started questioning things probably at the age of 15 or 16, I realised that most of the information that I was being told by, say establishment figures like teachers, etcetera-etcetera, was utter bullshit.

And then I sort of did my own reading. I was always involved and very active in, I guess, what is now called the Truth Movement, which I hate. But when did you have your 'wake up' moment? It was probably somewhere in the mid-'90s I think. I started reading probably a lot of the sort of stuff that you've been reading.

And just had a general 'wake up moment like I guess probably a lot of your listeners have had. The difference is I had the time and energy and, to a certain extent, money to really, really pursue it.

Now to get back to your question about Samantha Lewthwaite, it was just one of those things were I thought, "This is just the biggest load of crap I have heard in all my life." I can't think, right now off the top of my head, of a bigger, more convoluted, more drawn-out, long-running, BS story than this one. And I just felt compelled to do something.

Just citizen journalism. Do something about it, rather than just sitting, talking to your friend saying, "Yeah, well, what a load of crap that is." To actually inform others about it. And that's really my answer to your question.

Joe: Well, that's excellent because there is - as you said - there is a lot of people who talk about this stuff but don't step up and put their effort into trying to inform people about it.

Jon: Well, exactly. People talk about the 1% and the 99%. Unfortunately, we are the 1%. We are the 1% - that's really kind of the percentage. The other 99% couldn't really give a damn about Samantha Lewthwaite.

Joe: Yeah. So just tell us a little bit about Samantha Lewthwaite and what's so implausible. And I know that there's probably a long list of things that are implausible, but her story.

Jon: Oh god, where to start? I'm going to go through it in more or less the way my film goes through it, because it is in chronological order. And for me, the real big alarm bells - the huge alarm bells ringing - the vast amount of connection with 7/7, which of course is a huge topic in its own right.

But the nexus between her, 7/7 and the current stuff that's going or has been going on in Africa, I guess, is really one of the main things that we should focus upon. The fact that she's there, involved in 7/7, which was, of course, one of the biggest events of the 21st century - terrorism-wise in the UK. That, for me, is a massive, massive red flag.

And the fact that she is being dragged out that long. It's incredible, and it's really beggers belief. But the facts of the matter, now we are looking back on 7/7, it's, in my opinion, there's a no shadow of doubt that she had a key role in that bombing. Somewhere within that grey mist, she's deeply involved, along with a number of other players.

A red flag, again, for me is the Northern Ireland connection, which I go into some detail in the film. If we going to go right back before 7/7 to the original 'war on terror', which is, of course is Northern Island; it is very, very difficult to explain the weird set of connections between, say, figures like Martin McDaid who, for listeners out there, is generally accepted.

Martin McDaid is generally accepted, if there was an agent provocateur involved in 7/7 i.e. pushing these three guys to action, then McDaid has to be this guy. He went around shouting to everyone, "I'm in the special boat services." Which is odd if you are an agent provocateur to do that, but that's what he did. He is white. He pops up, just pops up there in the north of England from god knows where.

And the connection with Lewthwaite is her father, because her father, you see, was heavily involved in anti-terrorism in Northern Ireland.
Now, from my own readings and research, you don't resign from those kinds of organisations really. In the same way that Special Forces and Delta Forces in America, you don't get to resign. You're put in cold storage.

And I'm a great believer in looking at the family and the individual. Let's forget about the headlines, let's forget about the information that's being pumped to me, to you or to others. Let's just look at the family and the people and the reactions of neighbours, people on the street. People with no agendas, or so-called agendas. And it's very obvious that there is this strange Northern Ireland connection, this terrorist, Northern Island connection. And if you know anything about the 'troubles', as they are called, that entire dark period of Irish history was absolutely riddled; you can go centuries, I guess, but in the modern world, it's absolutely riddled with intelligence, counterintelligence, black operatives, propaganda, counterpropaganda, assassinations, killings. The whole panoply of what we now know as the modern 'war on terror'.

So I find it very, very odd that she comes of that background at all. That is my first big problem.

Joe: Yeah. Just coincidentally, I can understand probably why you had an interest in it or why all this amongst all the different stuff going on, the war on terror since 9/11, why this kind of jumped out of you.

You're originally from the UK, right? So just seeing that kind of bullshit from your own country kind of shoved on your shoulders is ridiculous.

Jon: Yeah. I knew that something, sorry to interrupt you but, just an example.There was a media shutdown in the UK. Obviously, you sound Irish. But there was a media shutdown; had no information, no reportage coming out on Northern Ireland. For a good couple of years, is just all you got was their version. You never got the Sinn Fein's version, you never got the other side; you didn't get any information. You turned on the news and that's it.

And, of course, when you get, as a youngster, and I must have been 16 or 17; teenagers don't quite have bullshit detectors. You'll be very surprised. And I guess you're right, that maybe one of the reasons why Lewthwaite has jumped out at me.

Joe: Yeah. Well, for me, I can totally relate to what you're saying because I grew up not too far from where Samantha Lewthwaite was born, you know?

Jon: Yeah.

Joe: And I knew, as you've described in your film, about her father's background. But I never really looked into her. I looked into and wrote about the 7/7 bombings themselves, and she at that time was just a part player and she rose to fame since then.

Jon: Yeah.

Joe: Yeah. In Northern Ireland, the fact that her father was essentially military intelligence in Northern Ireland during the '70s puts him right there at the heart of the original - at least in the last 30 or 40 years - the original, as you said, 'war on terror'. And the beginning, at least this stage of it, the beginning of false flag terror attacks.

Jon: Another issue again, sorry to interrupt but another big problem is, where is the father? Where is he?
If it was my kid, if it was your child or my kid, I'd be straight on the 9 o'clock news!

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: Where is this guy? Where is his interviews? Where is his explanation?

Joe: Well, apparently, they were distraught about her converting to Islam, right?

Jon: Oh, I'm sure!So distraught that they let her wander around in - look, I don't know about where you come from, but where I come from, white women walking around in full Islamic clothing is a non-starter.

Joe: Yeah, yeah. So basically, she converts to Islam at about 17 or something, back in the UK, right?

Jon: No. I think she, let me work this out. She converts in 2001, she's born in '83 so I guess she's 18?

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: At point of conversion?

Joe: Okay, so she converts to Islam and she falls in with this Germaine Lindsay guy who is one of the alleged 7/7 bombers.

Jon: You're right there. That's the first critical event in her life. If we have defining moments in our lives, then this is a critically defining moment in her life. And in my film, I bring up the fact that, depending on which media outlet you choose to read, there are conflicting reports on how she met this guy.

You would have thought that Ma and Pa would have been able to verify that: "No, no, no; she met him at X, Y and Z."
Again, complete silence. Total silence. So we're left to our own devices to try and figure it out. Again, if it was me, the father: "No, sorry, they knew each other from... they met each other at SOAS, which is part of the University of London." Or, "No, they met each other in a war march." Or, "No, they met each other just in a chat room; they knew each for six months, they developed a relationship. This is how it happened."

Again, total silence.

Pierre: You just mentioned SOAS University, or SOAS, part of University of London. Can you tell us a bit more about this?

Jon: I can certainly tell you a bit more about SOAS. I went to, what was known at the time as the University of North London. When I was at the University of North London, there was a recruitment drive going on in my second and third year, by what we now would refer to as Islamic radicals.

They were all over the campus. And it was ridiculous. They would come down at, say, lunchtime into the bar area, set up their stall. You'd have 200 or 300 people getting sloshed. And 5 or 6, it is a ridiculous thing, you couldn't believe it, 5 or 6 hard core Islamic radicals trying to recruit anyone!

And there wasn't a great deal of Islamic people there. They got shouted down, people would scream at them, whatnot.
So even in my own university, I knew that there was something very, very weird going on. It was just very, very odd. I could go into great detail but that's just enough.

SOAS, to get back to the point; to go to SOAS, it's a language school as well. So we got people with the right... they're intelligent, okay, we would assume. And they've got language skills. They've got exotic language skills; they may well be able to speak Arabic, they may well be able to speak Moroccan. They may well be able to speak obscure African dialects.

So if those are the people, they've already got the skills. All you've got to do is hand them the check! Now I don't know about you, but if you're 18 or 19 and not particularly clued up, and someone comes along to you and says, "Hey, listen, don't worry about the job search! Here's 50K, come and work for us."

What are you going to do?

Joe: So you're suggesting that such a proposition was made to her?

Jon: Well, no, I'm not. I'm actually suggesting that at some point, my personal feeling is, again, it's her father because we speak to people. If you speak to people who come from a military background, Ma and Pa will be giving pressure on little Johnny to join the family business. It's just normal.

Look at the music business; Miley Cyrus. You could say, "Well, did Miley Cyrus get pressured into sort of prancing around and twerking?"
I don't know. But it makes it a hell of a lot easier if your dad is Billy Ray Cyrus. You see my point?

It may be a combination of factors. Her father may have said, "Listen, this is the right place to go to further your career in your chosen field." i.e. British Intelligence.

Or she may have gone there on her own free will and someone came up to her and said, "Hey, listen. Because she is a smart women.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: From my search into her schooling, she was one of the top people in her school. So she is a smart cookie, she is no idiot.

Joe: So she fits the bill more of someone who is doing this consciously rather than the kind of patsies that have been used, abused and discarded?

Jon: I definitely think so. My opinion is it's not something, I completely discount the theory that somehow she got...

Let's look at an alternative theory now. She got married to Lindsay. She has a mild interest in Islam. It develops further, she becomes more fervent; she meets Lindsay. Lindsay goes off and does the bombing.

MI5 then approach her and say, "Hey, listen, you've got two choices. You can go to the slammer for next 40 years. Or you can come and work for us and we'll keep you in handbags."

Joe: Keep you in handbags, yeah?

Jason: Yeah.

Jon: It's a serious possibility. But it's one that I just don't, I don't buy into because of her background. I just don't see that.
Any parents, and again, going back to the streets, going back to family, going back, parents - and there is a lot of anecdotal, well; not anecdotal. There is a plenty of evidence that she is genuinely interested in Islam.

It's not something that happened. I think that at some point she had a genuine interest in Islam and then somehow that got distorted and twisted into ending up working for MI5.

Pierre: And actually, at first Samantha Lewthwaite denies her husband's involvement - her husband, Germaine Lindsay's involvement in the 7/7 bombing. She asked for DNA proof then she turns 180°. So can you explain, what's your hypothesis as to what happened in her mind?

Jon: Well, that's a very interesting point, you see, because whenever you get something as convoluted with so many layers of the onion, and we haven't even started yet. But when you get something as convoluted as this, you'll get 80% where you can fit into one box. And then there is that other 20% where it is very difficult to fit in.

And, again as you correctly pointed out her initial reaction is, "Hey, the guy is not involved."Now I actually think that, to be honest with you, there is a side of me that says that Lindsay was not involved. And I'm not sure myself, I'll be totally frank with you. I don't have all the answers, okay. I think that I've touched on some areas where we can all talk about and probably come to some conclusions, but there is going to be other areas where we are just not going to be able to come to any firm conclusions. And the area you just pointed out is one of those things.

She denies it initially. And then, she gets the DNA evidence, or supposed DNA evidence. And then she becomes, I guess, a poster child. She starts making the media pixies, she starts getting the payment blah blah blah blah blah... and I don't know how you could look at it.
Obviously, the powers that be are not idiots. And they may not want a linear narrative, they may not want people like you and me, for example, to put everything into that box.

If she would have come out and said, "Oh, yeah. He definitely was a freaking weirdo bomber!"Then that kind of puts her under the spotlight. It's like, "Well, okay. So what's your role in it?"There has been a lot of analysis and a lot of talk about that particular period immediately after the bombings. Whatever the case may be, I don't think we should get hung up on that because the DNA evidence that she's presented with is almost definitely bullshit, okay?

My opinion is I doubt highly Lindsay was anywhere near a train, okay. And I think, we're onto 7/7 now, and 7/7 is a three hour conversation; Probably not one we should have this evening.

But the facts are she denies it, then she accepts it, then she takes the money, then she is on the low-low for two years. Then she's off and the new Samantha Lewthwaite kind of rises from the phoenix, however you want to phrase it.

Niall: So, okay, 7/7 happens and then the next instance at which her name pops up, is it in connection with a whole new event or a whole new plot that's unfold or something?

Jon: Well, immediately after 7/7, she's back in the papers because her house was burnt down, probably by some EDL-type figures. English Defence League type people; not saying it was EDL but you know. People who were none too happy about the situation.And then she sort of goes off the radar. There's a couple of years where there is just a blank. There are blank in, I'm trying to think of a comparison.
Almost kind of like the early life of Oswald. And there is a lot of surprisingly high correlation between her life and Oswald's life in a lot of regards. But she basically goes off the radar for about two years.

And she doesn't resurface until about 2007 - I think from 2007 to 2009 is another grey area. There are reports that she went off to Kenya and then came back. But again, it's very grey. And I can only give to you the information that I can get myself which, to be honest with you, is minimal.

If she did come back to the UK and she was in Kenya, she should have been picked up immediately at the airport.
You would have thought, "Hey, one minute, you're married to a key player in 7/7, then you're off to Kenya for two years, doing god knows what, and then you're back in the UK."At that point, someone from the intelligence services, you would have thought, would have said, "Samantha, dear, we need to have a serious talk."

She was just running around, doing her thing, like so many of these people seem to be able to do. So many of these people seem to be able to do and make movements that you and I couldn't do.If you and I blew up a couple of tube trains, we're allowed to travel to a known terrorist epicentre? No.And then we're allowed to come back to the UK? No.

It's just not plausible.

Pierre: And she does that with a fake ID? And apparently she earns a lot of money; owns a lot of property.

Jon: No, no, no. Up 'till about 2009, 2008, she's Samantha Lewthwaite.She's just, for all intents and purposes, she is an innocent victim who has, unfortunately fallen in with Lindsay. Who, of course, Lindsay got radicalised; he was a nice guy. He never did nothing wrong. And really, we should talk more about Lindsay.

But she's herself. She is the person that her pictures on the passport. She's Samantha Lewthwaite with her kids. And we just don't know. We just don't know very much about that period.

And there's a reports that she went up north, there's reports that she was hanging around the Luton area. I don't think we can really say with any certainty what the hell was going on in that period.

And who knows what was happening when she was under police protection. Because she was under police protection for a good couple of years. Obviously, because after the house burnt down; which is not that long after the bombings, she would have, I would imagine, been on a, not a hit list of certain people, but definitely would have been; her life probably would have been in some form of danger.

Joe: Yeah. Talk to us about when she really came back on. When she appeared as the alleged terrorist -

Jon: Yeah, okay. She comes back big time on the radar in 2011 and it really ought to do with Mombasa in Kenya.
In Kenya you've got a very low level kind of grenade throwing incident, where one or two people were killed and a number of people were injured in effectively a very poor part of Mombasa.

And she is somehow linked or, this is the first definitive thing that the media says: "Yes, she's there, she's involved and isn't it all so terrible."
And she is accused of, depending again on what you read, she's apparently spotted by unknown witnesses with no names, again. And it's all sources, intelligent sources; the usual nonsense. She's spotted with another guy throwing a grenade out of a car and disappearing off into the Kenyan...

Joe: Jungle.

Jon: wilds, yeah. And that's the first - the Mombasa Jericho Beer Garden, which is where she bombed. Which is, again, a very, very weird thing to do.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: Sort of looks to me much like -

Joe: So it's not a high profile kind of place, right?

Jon: No. You could've put that down as just a pissed off fella, or it could be just something; that sort of thing happens over a couple hundred bucks.

Joe: Yeah. It's nothing serious.

Jon: It can be territorial, it could be debt; god only knows. Kenya can be a dangerous place.So, she becomes, "Ah, okay, we got it wrong. She is doing radical terrorist activities. She is involved with al-Shabaab."

And we probably should get on to al-Shabaab. And that is really the point, about 2011, where you start seeing her face again in the media.

Joe: Right. But then it's another two years before she does anything else, right?

Jon: Effectively, yes. We're about to now to go onto the attack on the mall. And there's no evidence at all she was there.
You would have thought, they have CCTV, they released CCTV of the incidence. She's not there, it's as simple as that. And everyone really kind of acknowledged that she's not there.

But there was a huge, huge campaign right across sort of Eastern Africa, the UK. Probably even reached a lot of the European papers and the European media outlets that she is organising it. 'She is number one. She has got to be there; of course, she is there.' Reports of, again, unknown witnesses, intelligent sources...

"Oh yeah, we saw the white woman barking out orders."She's not there. She's clearly not there. What you've got there, but from what we can establish, is young Somalis. Young Somalis with AKs, like I say in the film. And that's it; that she is not there anywhere.
It's not difficult. If she's there, she's standing there with another AK in full Islamic gear, I would imagine. Standing around pointing at the next innocent citizen to be shot because they won't convert on the spot.She's not there, it's as simple as that.

She's also apparently, she was supposed to have done another hit or attack on a very nearby mall called The Junction. I think The Junction was in Nairobi. But yeah, she was linked to another foiled attack, because these attacks are always foiled, of course, at the last minute.
But there is no evidence. There's nothing. It's just nonsense. It's like me saying, "I saw Father Christmas in the mall."
It's just utter nonsense.

Joe: So when you look at the entire case of this Samantha Lewthwaite, the 'White Widow', everything that people think they know about her is pretty much false, right? At least, what I mean is the average person, if you ask them about her they'd probably say, "Yeah, that English woman, the 'white widow' or something."

Jon: Oh god, yeah! Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Without any shadow; in my mind, no shadow of a doubt.Whatever you think she is, she is not. Where I get slightly confused is, when she is 15, 16, she is reading the Quran. I know she is reading the Quran because her school buddies say. MI5 has somehow got a hold of everyone she went; No, they didn't get a hold of everyone she went to school with. She was reading the Quran.

But then you've got another situation, going back to the street, where, if you look at what her neighbours said, and if you look at the background of Lindsay a little bit deeper; which is why I think we should talk a little about Lindsay. Because, after all, it is her husband.
They are up partying all weekend, pumping out RnB. And this is what the neighbours said, Some of the neighbours were saying, "No, no, no. She was walking around in Islamic gear Monday to Friday. Friday, Saturday and Sunday, they are up doing coke with Lindsay, listening to RnB."

Joe: Yeah. So there's kind of a 'Mohamed Atta' element to Lindsay?

Jon: Yeah, you've just hit the nail on the head.There's aspects of her personality that are ludicrously middle class. There's a whole set of anomalies that we haven't really discussed. For example, she loves the Internet, she likes to shop.

We know she loves to shop because she ripped off a couple of the local banks in Africa for as much she can get a hold of.
She had a kid. She doesn't have her kid in the wilds with al-Shabaab on the pram. She doesn't push it out in the middle of the desert. No, no, no, no, no; she goes to a Johannesburg birthing room, probably one of the most expensive facilities in the area.If you know anything about Africa, that is highly abnormal. That's white middle class territory, big time.

There is a lot of things, like her habits.Now, the last time I checked, if I was an Islamic radical, organiser, a banker type figure, because she has been described as the banker of al-Shabaab or at least a key financial organiser, you don't go around taking self-portraits, yeah?
She's made up in these. How many Islamic people wear make-up? You can have a look at the pictures; she's made up.

Joe: Yeah. Hard core Muslims don't post selfies.

Jon: They don't! No, no, no. I'm sure she's probably going to McDonald's in Johannesburg.She doesn't live in tiny, little shit shacks in the middle of nowhere. No, no, no, no, no, she gets the best apartments she can get her hands on. These are good; I'd like one. This is decent accommodation.

She's got accommodation for herself, for her underlings. We're talking a lot of money, we're talking a lot of money here.To rent for half a dozen, a dozen people, for like a couple of years, we're talking some serious dough. It's not like chump change.This isn't, and I'm sorry but like getting £30,000, because she did receive £30,000 from The Mirror, this is at least one payment that we're aware of, that's not going to cover it, my friends.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: That's going to cover you for a couple of months, for a couple of years, with a dozen people underneath you. She's got underlings here, underlings there, all the rest of it. And she likes nice apartments, she likes good quality accommodation. She likes birthing rooms, she likes sitting around on the Internet.

Joe: Yeah, she's not your average kind of fundamentalist Jihadi, dedicated to the cause.

Jon: Absolutely not, no. If you look at the kind of people who are joining ISIS. Yeah, okay, they may actually, to be honest with you, they do have an online presence.

But I just find that at that particularly period and in that area; I've been to Africa a number of times.It's virtually impossible in a lot of these areas, even in places like Kenya, let alone Somalia, which is where she is supposed to be running around; you can't get an internet connection.

Joe: Yeah, yeah.

Jon: I barely get an internet connection in Portugal to make this call. And she's like, c'mon?She's just set. Who's paying for all of this? Again, it's the money trail. Again, look at the money.

Joe: Yeah. What's her links with this Lee Rigby killer, which was a couple of years ago, last year, I think.

Jon: Yeah. This is another really, really serious red flag, of which we could probably talk another three hours about this.
The Lee Rigby thing, she's just effectively supposed to have, I won't bore the listeners with all the details. But she's supposed to have bumped into this. She's supposed to effectively have bumped into every one of any note that's come out of Africa.

Michael Adebolajo, who is along with the other dude, there was two of them who attempted this beheading in central London, she's just effectively supposed to have bumped into him in Somalia. Or on the Kenyan border, or that particular area, because they are supposed to be migrating from Kenya into Somalia, doing whatever then disappearing back into Kenya then going on the low-low in south Africa.
They are all over East Africa effectively. And it's supposed to be a very tight knit network. Specifically, I think she's supposed to have known him through a couple of other known radicals.

I'll get on to that a little bit later because it's a little bit more contemporary. Because she's apparently supposed to have remarried.
And there's a whole set of connections, she's effectively known everyone. Somehow she's supposed to have known Mohammad Sidique Khan. Again, we'll get on to that.But she bumps into him on the yellow brick Jihadi road.

And what's very odd about Adebolajo, if we look at the street level, and let's forget about mainstream media, everyone around Adebolajo says, "Oh, no, no, no. MI5 were all over him. Pressure, pressure, pressure, constantly following him. Pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure."

So, hey, maybe Adebolajo was at some point, like Lewthwaite, genuinely interested. And maybe he got turned. But if you look at one specific incident, when a friend of Adebolajo's, one of his best friends apparently, was interviewed on the BBC; soon as the interview is over, MI5 officers are in the interview room in the BBC. He got arrested.

Obviously he said a little bit too much. He obviously must have said something that wasn't supposed to be mentioned because he got arrested.So from that, I can only deduce that he probably was telling the truth.

Joe: Yeah. Adebolajo was arrested previous to his head chop.

Jon: Yes, he was. And, from what I've read, there was a swarm the likes of which some of the Kenyan authorities, Kenyan sort of paramilitary, military etc. had never seen before. There was a swarm of Black Hawks that were literally sent by half a dozen to a dozen Black Hawks to get this one guy.

It's like you see in the films, guys clambering down ropes, on the ground, bang! 'Get in the chopper, we're going.'Why was that the case, because he was a non-figure? This was before he did the beheading, you see.

So somewhere along the line, someone definitely got Adebolajo. My theory is Lewthwaite said, "We've got one here. We've either got potential, or I think this guy can be turned."Or he is a genuine insurgent. I doubt he's a genuine insurgent myself. I just don't buy it.

Joe: Yeah, or he can be used as a patsy in some way or other.

Jon: Well, exactly, exactly. The fact that you had this very high profile, ridiculous situation in central London indicates to me that's such an intense psychological experience for the viewer that I just find it very, very difficult to believe that Adebolajo was not MI5.
Now, the obvious answer to that is just: 'well, why is he in jail?'Well, the same reason why Oswald got shot.

Pierre: Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: Oswald got shot. It doesn't prevent him from being high level CIA.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: That doesn't prevent it. Just because he got shot, it doesn't prevent him from being high level CIA.Just because you end up in jail, what are you going to do?

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: What, you're going to speak to your jail mates and say, "I was working for the MI5, I was a patsy!"They're going to say, "No you weren't, mate. You're a fucking lunatic and you deserve to be here."

Pierre: So you suppose -

Jon: Do you know what I mean?

Joe: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But from a general point of view, in terms of what the purpose of Lewthwaite as the 'white widow' associated with the 7/7 bombings.

All of the alleged perpetrators of the 7/7 bombing were all kind of Pakistani or - it's taken it out of the Middle East. It's taken the war of terror out of the Middle East and pushing it into Africa and then putting Lewthwaite at the scene of this Westgate shopping mall attack last year even though she wasn't.It seems to me that it's all a means to an end.

Jon: Very convenient, isn't it? It's all a little bit too convenient.It's all very convenient, it's all is very convenient. And now, we have 'Jihadi Johns', and where are they?

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: Another convenient location in the middle of Iraq and Syria.

Joe: Syria, yeah.

Jon: Where we've been trying to get rid of Assad for what, two years?

Joe: Three or four.

Jon: Now, all of a sudden, we've got these characters showing up just in the right spot, at the right time.And to be honest with you, if it was just a single event, maybe I'd let it go.

But when it's a continual process, continually from like, what? We're talking the late '90s now, we're talking going back to Jihadi John, that thing's been going since 1998 because Jihadi John's father did the first bombings of the US embassy in '98 in East Africa. See what I mean?

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: So it's all a bit strange, it's all a little bit... I don't buy it at all. And I wouldn't imagine that anyone with a shred of intelligence would believe this. Just, we shouldn't imagine that our media and our newspapers, television, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah is anything less than a weapon directed at us.

Joe: Yeah, I get the impression that their stories are so kind of unbelievable, so ridiculous; like the 'White Widow' and they have so many holes in them. And Jihadi John and stuff; it is such theatre that they have to have these people carry out actual kind of gruesome murders in order to kind of make the message hit home.

Because without that kind of stuff, that shock factor for the average person in the street, they might start to go, "This all sounds like a lot of bullshit to me." People might start figuring out, you know?But the fear keeps them -

Jon: Oh, absolutely! No, absolutely. There's no doubt that Adebolajo, in my opinion, there are some people on the internet said, "Oh no, no. Somehow it never happened."

No, no, no, Adebolajo definitely topped Lee Rigby. There's no doubt about that. And there's definitely, in Kenya, that shopping mall thing, it happened. People got killed.

As you point out, there has to be some meat in the bone. Otherwise, what is it? Otherwise, it's just not going to get the desired result.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: And the desired result is, as we've pointed out, in places like Syria and Kenya - and I'm sure, at some point in the future, you'll probably have some guy pop up in, say, Indonesia.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: Some British guy, British woman, there'll be some horrific event and there'll be a whole back story. And it'll link into something else. And there will be another one, because they seem to be, in my opinion, amping this up.

And, a little bit off subject and a little bit off message and off topic or whatever, but if you think about it for a second, we're in 1932.
It's not 2014; it's 1932. They can't print any money, the stock market is being propped up by the biggest money printing program in the world; it is over. There's T minus 10 billion to go and they are going to stop this program. When you stop this program, god only knows what's going to happen. You've got Russia and a number of other countries doing what they can to try and pull away from the dollar, hence the problems in the Ukraine. And they are getting very, very, very desperate.

Niall: Yeah.

Jon: Now why the obsession of places like Kenya, Syria and all the rest of it is another subject, but we're reaching a very, very critical point right now.

A really critical point where undoubtedly we're sitting on the top, the very apex, of something that's about to come down. And they're doing everything they can to try and prop up what's left of the US economy. And how are they doing it? By this massive war machine.
And what happened in 1932 with the major, major collapse, well, it was actually 1929 but 1932, obviously, was the year before Hitler got into power.

Pierre: Yeah.

Jon: And they are trying as hard as they can, through places, through Israel, to create a massive war and to drag in as many different players as possible because Iraq and Afghanistan, Syria; the list goes on; Libya; it's not going to do it. That isn't going to do it.
That's not going to do it. What they want, what they are trying to do, is use this war on terror to engineer a real war. A real, proper, full-scale, 'involving me, you and our listeners' type war. And this is just backdrop, this is just noise.

Pierre: Jon, you just mentioned a conflict developing in Indonesia. Actually, there is a president there with a terrorist operation against the Marriott Hotel. And during your investigation, you discovered a very interesting character, Frank Lowy, who is connected to this bombing in Indonesia.

So maybe you could tell us more about Frank Lowy?

Jon: Okay, okay. I'm not really going to mince my words; Lowy is a high level Zionist. Lowe is one of the richest 200 people in the world. Lowy has more money probably than the Queen. Lowy is very good friends with Silverstein, primarily through their political allegiances, which is Zionism.

I'm just going to say it, he's an Australian citizen, nominally. In the same way that these people don't really have a country. It doesn't make any difference to them; New York City or Sydney or London, it doesn't make any difference.But the connection with the Westgate shopping mall and Lowy is, he owns the commercial space. Lowy owns commercial property ?????? Shopping Precincts [01.27.43], that sort of thing.
So he had the bottom layers of the WTC complex. And he got a nice, big, fat pay-out along with Silverstein.

The connection with the Marriot in Indonesia and the Westgate is he is the owner, he is the venue. He is the venue for the theatre, okay?
And just like the World Trade Centre was the venue for the theatre that was 9/11, these people aren't that imaginative, they thought, "Let's give Frank a call. He's always good."Ring, ring, ring. "Frank, we need another venue, buddy! Can you help us out?"
"Yeah, sure. I've got this place in Kenya. It doesn't make a lot of money, I'll get a nice fat insurance payment, again. No problems, no problems at all. Good day." Click.Goodbye, goodnight.

That's pretty much it, that's pretty much it. There's not much more else to say. Lowy was one of the co owners of 9/11 and he also owns the Westgate.You can call that a bizarre coincidence, you could possibly say, "Well, he owns property here, there and everywhere. It's just an unfortunate coincidence."

Well, there's a lot of unfortunate coincidences. And I just don't buy all of these unfortunate coincidences. He owns the Marriot, they got bombed. There's a list of about 8 or 9 that I go into in my film of places where they set the backstory, because you've always got to set a backstory.

You can't just, like Lewthwaite, show up and do an event and then disappear. You have to have the backstory to make it believable. So there's a whole series of threats and bombings. A notable one was in Derby, in England, where they had to evacuate. And it's always the same story.

"Oh, intelligent sources and we got a call from blah, blah, blah and how we managed to foil it at the last minute." Because these plots are always foiled at the last minute, aren't they?And that's the connection. The connection is this high level Zionist, along with Silverstein.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: Yeah.

Pierre: Yeah.

Joe: That was a really interesting bit of detective work you did on that. Because it provides some evidence of the operational level of how they go about carrying it out. And how these people are connected to each other.

Jon: Like I said, they are not that imaginative.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: They are not really that creative with it. And it's just like, there's no real way that you can put all those pieces together and not come to some conclusions. If you can't come to some conclusions then your head is in the sand.

Joe: Well, the problem is that they are unsavoury conclusions for a lot of people. And it's not the average person who can kind of go there. Because the whole message that's being delivered when you really look into these things is pretty scary. It's that our wonted kind of leaders are, they are the enemy in a very real way.

Jon: I guess that's old news. But it's more scary; it's terrifying, if you're involved.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: If you're one of the victims, it's a lot more than terrifying. It's a game changer.There's a whole area there of Zionist-Israeli influence, because I use the word Zionist and I don't like to use the word Israeli because there's a large amount of people in Israel who are very anti what's going on and what's happened to the state of Israel.

So we shouldn't say things like the 'Jews' because that's bullshit, that's absolute nonsense.It's a political nexus that involves a lot of different kind of power players. And these just happen to be one group. You can't say that Jeb Bush and George Bush and 'Big Daddy' Bush are Zionists. They are not, but they've got some pretty good friends who are. You see my point?

And it's just corralling this fascist area of influence. Because Israel is a fascist state, just as America is a fascist state and just as the UK is a fascist state.And there's people going, "Hold on a second, there's no death camps. There's no people being shoved in the ovens."
Well, no, but a lot more stuff that the Nazis would have loved to have done that never got done. The Nazis had Kritallnacht, we had 9/11.

Niall: Yeah.

Jon: So it's kind of like a vortex of different power players, all with extremely dark agendas, where we can see and we can point the finger at. And then you go a little bit further up and further up and further up, and we won't get into that on this particular conversation, I don't think.
But again, you have to start drawing some conclusions here.

And without any shadow of a doubt, Lowy fits the bill perfectly. Absolutely perfectly. And Silverstein as well, there's plenty of reasons it's beneficial for all parties.

Joe: Just looking at a story on Lewthwaite recently. There was one in that paragon of celebrity gossip, The Daily Mail, in the UK. There's a story from the 14th of August, past just couple of weeks ago, on the 'White Widow'.And they said that 'Reports from these intelligence sources say that she has a new face.'

Jon: Yeah.

Joe: 'That the hunt for her has gone cold because she's -'

Jon: Yeah, because they are not supposed to find her, you see. She's got a new face; she is never supposed to be found. She was never supposed to be found, that's why she's got a new face, you see.

Joe: If she never appears again, then looking back at what she did; her purpose was just like a bogeyman. She probably didn't actually do anything of any significance.

But she was used, her image and her face was used, and probably willingly on her part because she'd get paid off for it, was used to create this image of the home-grown terrorist from the UK.

And we see how, since she did that or since she is presented in that light, we've seen a real uptick in the attempt to promote that idea of 'home-grown terrorist in the UK.'That nobody's safe. It's not just about over in the Middle East anymore.

Jon: Sure. Yeah. they could do anything with it.

Joe: Yeah, they could.

Jon: Yeah, of course. Of course.If you look at her plastic surgery. The plastic surgery, what, in Africa? C'mon, BS, nonsense. What in Somalia?

Joe: Yeah!

Jon: So let me get this right. She went from Somalia to an urban centre and checked in with a clinic and said, "My name is Mrs Faye Webb," because that's one of her alias. "And I want a new face." And that's it? And no one spotted her. Now c'mon, nonsense. Obviously nonsense.

Jason: No, she probably said she's David.

Jon: It's just as much nonsense as...

Jason: For those of you who don't know, David Webb was The Borne Identity's other name.

Joe: Oh yeah! Yeah, pretty much, The Bourne Identity.

Jason: Maybe that's what this is?

Joe: Samantha Lewthwaite is easy.No, maybe she got it done in Somalia on the black-market; a couple of warlords just got a couple of machetes out.

Jon: I'm sure they're probably a Harley St. plastic surgeon running around Somalia with AKs. Sure, totally normal and plausible story. Absolutely!

Joe: Yeah!

Jon: It's just as plausible as her being there!Look, there's no way she's in Somalia, there's no way she's ever been in Somalia, okay.
If you've ever been to an Islamic country, you can forget it. As a female, you can forget it. They're not even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. So you're telling me that she and all these underlings that she's got underneath her; come from this very intense, patriarchal background are suddenly going to start taking orders from a woman?

You're joking.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Absolutely! She walked in there and with her Somali warlords and said, "Behold, the White Widow!" And they all bowed down in front of her.

But then, maybe they did when she said she was walking for MI5. Maybe they said, "Hey, can we get some of that action?"

Jon: I'm sure handing out a few cheques wouldn't go amiss

Joe: Go amiss, yeah.

Jon: That will work. A couple of cheques. A few fifty grand cheques will get a lot of stuff done in Africa. But it won't get you plastic surgery done in Somalia. Forget it!

Jason: Somehow I am vaguely reminded of the scene from Batman, where the Joker goes in to some sort of backroom plastic surgeon.

Pierre: In your documentary, it's just an important point, you show how Samantha Lewthwaite is middle class.

Jon: Yeah.

Pierre: She's Caucasian, she's quite brilliant; she's smart. She likes shopping, she's actually quite a normal white woman with whom many Caucasian can identify.

So I suppose that depicting her as the bogeyman, as the radical Islamic bogeyman, totally increases the fear factor. Because it means it's not about remote, male, bearded jihadist plotting in a cave in Afghanistan.But it means that anyone can be a terrorist. Your neighbour could be a terrorist.

Jon: That's the point, that's the point. You've just hit the nail directly on the head. In a way, it's irrelevant what her religion is. It's kind of irrelevant the fact that she's - look, in the '70s, she probably would have been a Marxist bomb thrower in Berlin, okay?

Pierre: Exactly.

Jon: In the '60s, she probably would have been in the Weatherman. And we all know about those guys.It doesn't really matter because that's not the focus. It is on one level anti-Islam, but the real focus here is anti-dissent; anti-dissent.

It's saying that, "Look, this white woman, i.e. your girlfriend, your neighbour, your daughter, your mommy, in the case of Jihad Jane. they are the evil. It's not us at the top. It's you guys at the bottom."

"That's why we need all the cameras, and that's why we need the constant surveillance. That's why we need the police brutality, that's why we need all the violence. That's why we need all the continual war. Because we've got such a chronic problem with people just like you," i.e. meaning me and meaning you.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: So the real, that's really thrust in my video - the real thrust in my video to be totally frank with you, is the totally fallacious nature of the 'war on terror'.

The 'war on terror' is never really about destroying Islam, as a lot of other people seem to suggest. It's not setting up the crusades, it's not about the new crusades, it's about that at all. It's about a worldwide, complete control grid where, to all intents and purposes, it's a Brave New World/1984 on steroids.

Jason: Yeah.

Pierre: It's tragic. It's tragic because you have a lot of UK people, a lot of people in the US, who support this farce, the 'war on terror'. They pay taxes to support this effort, they believe the lie, they think it's for their freedom, they think we're going to get rid of terrorists in remote countries.

They don't realise that actually they support their very own scheme that ultimately target them, their freedom; their lives.

Jon: Yeah, yeah.The whole thing is a ridiculous proposition. I was thinking last night, "Okay, what is the worst case scenario that the so-called 'war on terror' is afraid of?"

The United States has never been invaded, ever. And it's never going to. The United Kingdom hasn't been invaded since 1066. What, are these people going to mount some sort of like, because if they are not doing that, I'm not interested.

If they are not on my doorstep with an AK, a la the Second World War, if they are not in Paris or somewhere in France, like the Second World War, where you did have a genuine right-in-your-face threat where they were rounding up Jewish people and they were sending in weapons; if that's not happening then I'm not interested.

But what is the threat? What is exactly the threat? Think about it for a second, they always say the same thing: "Oh, it's to protect the citizens."No, it is not, no it is not because all the evidence; the only incidences that have happened from my opinion, and I would probably imagine your opinions too, is done by the state.

If we accept that the state organised 9/11 and organised Madrid, which there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest that they did, just my opinion, again. I'm not trying to force that down your throat. Then there is nothing, there is nothing.You've heard this, recently heard reports that somehow ISIS have come through Mexico into America? C'mon guys, it's getting so far beyond plausible. And there is no threat.
If they want to set up another Iraqi state in Iraq, then let the Iraqi people deal with that. If they can't deal with that, then perhaps an Iraqi state needs to be set up there. That's none of our business.

America isn't this world police force that's going to go to every single tiny area of the world and drop daisy cutters on. It's a ridiculous proposition, the whole proposition behind the war on terror, just the fundamental proposition that you are in danger. That at any moment, a bomb is going to be let off on a train that you are on, is absolute utter nonsense.

The only people in the United Kingdom who have fought an effective war against the British state was the IRA. And that was like, what, 40 years ago now.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely. We agree with you on pretty much everything you've said there.

Jason: Well...

Joe: Yeah, go ahead Jason.

Jason: I think there are like two factors to it. Obviously, the first one is that creating these fake 'home-grown terror' things obviously legitimises the policies of the government that are internal, that allows them to militarise the police force and do all these other things.
But I think that it also serves a secondary purpose. In a certain sense, it makes it so that people are terrified of being critical of the government because it's too easy: "Oh, you're like the White Widow then, huh?"

This whole black and white; you're either for the government or for the terrorist. There's no: "Hey, wait a minute - I don't like either of you guys, to be quite honest. I don't give a shit about the Islamic fascist and I don't quite like you either."

Jon: Yeah, yeah.

Jason: "Actually, I'm over here and both of you suck. I don't care about the Islamic fascist revolution and I also don't care about your National Security State. I think both of them are bullshit."

And you can't have that third party because people have been polarized: "You're either with us or against us. You're either for the government, or you're terrorist."

Jon: Totally. You get another level beyond that where you get self-policing. And when I say self-policing it means, when I then go and speak to or have a conversation with another person, they'll be like, "Hang on! Shut your mouth or I'll punch you face in if you say anything about X, Y and Z."

So you get a system in place where the powers that be can step back a little bit and it's self-running, it's self-policing. And everyone, I would imagine, who's listening and who is in the room right now would probably have had that experience.

Jason: Oh yeah.

Jon: Talk to someone and they say, "Listen man, if you say another word, I'm going to punch your face in. Because I'm for Uncle Sam and our troops are out there dying. And they are fighting and they doing it for you and me. So don't say another damn word about it."

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: Oh yeah. My favourite is what I call 9/11 Syndrome, which is like suddenly after 9/11 whenever I would talk to someone about it they would say, "Yeah, but my cousin's brother's ex-girlfriend's former roommate died in 9/11."It's like everybody had somebody who died in 9/11 all of a sudden.

Whenever you talk to them, they're like, "Yeah, but I knew somebody who died so shut your mouth!"

Jon: Yeah, yeah.

Jason: You are just like, who are all these people who are so connected? And I call it a syndrome, I think that they have made it up in their head to make it more personal because they love it.

Joe: Well, yeah. Even for the people who aren't connected who died in some phony terror attack, nowadays it's like, you get the same fear-based reaction from people, simply because they had to watch Jihadi John cutting the head off someone. Cutting the head off James Foley on TV, or read about it; they are almost as traumatised by having that kind of stuffed forced on them as they are by knowing someone who actually died.

Jason: Who actually believes that when a person acts that way?These are people who spend all of their day watching violence constantly. The worst violence. People getting their chests ripped open and blown up, all of this stuff.

Joe: I know. All the horror movies and stuff, yeah.

Jason: Everyone is talking about how desensitised we are to violence. And then we get the slight intimation that some guy is actually -

Joe: That it is actually real.

Jason: That it's actually real, and everyone's like, "Oh, I'm so scarred! It's warped my fragile mind. Oh god."And you're like, "Dude, really? Seriously? What world do you live in?"I think that they're just like, they are drama queens.

Joe: They are like children.

Jon: Yeah. We've come to, like I said, a really critical point where unfortunately - when I said earlier on when we started this conversation that we are the 1%. And people always talk about, "Oh, the 99%."

No, no, it's actually the opposite. We're the 1%. The 99% are in deep, deep dodo. And you've got 1% trying as hard as they can, as you guys are, to try and inform and fight this tidal wave of propaganda and nonsense and fairy tale and 1984 type reality.

And we've got this situation now where effectively they have now won. If I woke up tomorrow morning and the UK said, "Listen, we're going to start monitoring all online conversations for potential terrorists," I would not be surprised to find myself on that list tomorrow morning.
I would not be at all surprised and I would not be at all surprised if I got that knock on the door. I wouldn't be surprised, not at all.
It's a critical kind of moment where we are about to descend into a nightmarish reality that, to be honest with you, won't come into full effect for probably another 10 or 20 years.

But you don't have to be a genius to work this out, and that's what really annoys me; is the fact that, if I can work it out, good god, surely my neighbours can work it out. It's not rocket science here, it's not as if we're trying to promote a round world in the Middle Ages here.
This is pretty, pretty obvious stuff.

Jason: In a certain sense, maybe we are though.I heard a great quote, it's one of my favourite quotes of all time. It's written by some guy who was talking about it, and he said, "The problem in the Middle Ages was not that the world was round, that people had a problem with it. It was that the world wasn't flat."

Jon: Yeah, yeah.

Jason: "They had so committed themselves to the idea that it was flat that they got quite angry when it turned out that it was round all along."

Joe: They don't like change?

Jason: Yeah. And it's the same thing, it's not really the fact that the government is run by evil people. It's that the government isn't good, it's not protecting them; it's not helping them. And they've believed in that for so long, they've been taught that and suddenly they they don't want to accept it. Even though it's completely and totally obvious.

Jon: Another real problem is like I was saying all along, there is a huge economic factor behind all this. That effectively, it's over. The modern Western capitalist world that McDonalds, and drive-in movies, and the Super Bowl on a Sunday is pretty much o-v-e-r. It's over.
I speak to a lot of people in the States. And there's absolutely no doubt that it's got to a really critical point in America where they are just desperate. They are just desperate. And that's just my reading of it.

That's why they started pumping out this desperate stuff; it is desperate stuff for desperate measures, desperate measures for desperate times. They'll do anything to hang on to a late 20th century lifestyle.

Joe: Yeah, yeah.

Jon: And that's another reason they want to punch our faces in when they talk to us. It's like, "Hang on, I'm under all this stress. I'm under all this pressure economically. All I can get is a part-time job, and I'm lucky to get that. My wife's just left me because I don't earn enough. I can't afford to drive to work because the petrol is so high, or gasoline is so high."

There is a huge economic elephant in the room that isn't going away anytime soon. It's not going away anytime soon.And rather than reorganising our society, and trying to sort of pull away from a late 20th century paradigm, no, no, no. We're going to go to war eternally to maintain it, we're going to brutalise the rest of the world eternally until we are the last people; the United Kingdom, Europe and America specifically, holding the chips.

And that's really the big factor of this. That it's a large poker game where they are having to shove all in.

Joe: Yeah. I think you're totally on the money there, Jon. But I suppose until all the lights go out, we'll just keep fighting the good fight.
Listen, we're reaching the kind of top of the hour here so we're going to have to wrap it.

Jon: Sure!

Joe: Thanks a million for being on! I just want to say to our listeners that they need to check out your film, 'White Widow: The Samantha Lewthwaite Conspiracy'. It's on Youtube and it's excellent. And share it around and get it under as many people's noses as possible.
Okay Jon, thanks a million!

Jon: It's been an absolute pleasure.

Joe: Alright. I'll talk to you soon.

Jon: Alright.

Jason: Take care, man!

Niall: Thank you, Jon! Bye-bye.

Pierre: Thank you very much, Jon. Bye!

Joe: Alright folks, I'm not sure how that came across. For us, it was a bit kind of choppy a lot of the time.

Pierre: Yeah.

Joe: But that's the wonders of Skype for you. I think it was a bit better for our listeners; at least, that's the word I was getting. That they weren't getting it quite so bad as we were.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: But it was quite choppy for a lot of us.
Anyway, we'll be back...

Niall: Next week -

Joe: With...

Niall: Our guest for next week is William Patrick Patterson. He's the author of a number of books on George Gurdjieff.

Jason: Oh, I like it.

Joe: We will be talking to him. come over next Sunday, same time, same place.Thanks to all our listeners and our chatters and all our people everywhere.

Jason: Shout out to them.

Joe: Until then, have a good one.

Jason: Bye now