al-cia-da osama bin laden
U.S. President Barack Obama was awarded the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize after spending his first year in office overseeing the expansion of the CIA's drone assassinations program in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere. Earlier this year, French President François Hollande was awarded UNESCO's Peace Prize for bringing 'peace and stability' to Africa, following two months of French bombing campaigns and ground troop invasions of several West African countries, notably Mali.

This was necessary, Hollande told French citizens, to protect their homeland from attack by "terrorists". The week we discussed this on SOTT Talk Radio, another three UK Muslims were accused of planning a "mass suicide bomb plot" that would have been "worse than 7/7″, according to hysterical British police and mainstream media. In the U.S., the FBI has been supplying "terror suspects" with materials to act out "terror plots" as part of sting operations the government then uses to justify all manner of criminal behaviour, at home and abroad.

When is all of this going to end? Never, if the advocates for "endless war" have their way. We're told "they hate us for our freedoms", so given that our freedoms are disappearing fast, we need to ask the question: Are the "terrorists" winning? Is there really a "Muslim terror threat"? Why do certain countries play leading roles in this stratagem? What are the real goals behind "humanitarian intervention" and "regime change" in country after country?

Running Time: 02:17:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript:

Laura (Intro sound bite): We are doomed to extinction because of Agriculture. We have raped and pillaged the planet. There is a disinformation program literally for everyone no matter who you are and what your interests are; what your beliefs are; which way you are focusing; there is a website set up just for you to take you in and to vector your thinking and your attention to the way that they want you to think.
Categories for things happening in the skies and the cosmos, if you read the scientific reports that come through and put the pieces together you can see something big is happening.

{End Introduction}

Niall: Hello and welcome to SOTT Talk Radio. I'm Niall Bradley and with me tonight is Joe Quinn.

Joe: Hi there.

Niall: We're also joined this week by Jason Martin. Welcome back, J.

Jason: Thank you.

Niall: So, tonight we are going to be talking about the terror threat. It's been some 12 years now since 9/11. Hardly a day goes by where there's not some reminder of the evil (inaudible) encounter (inaudible) and the stories of course in the news (inaudible) terror threat and what things (inaudible) since they were lies. In fact, I mean at this point you wouldn't be able to keep up. There are so many incidents, obviously in the US but it's a global issue as well.
We're going to be talking about the terror threat that's obviously affecting our lives, but also get into what's (inaudible). It's important to understand that it serves pretty particular objectives I think that we, Joe, that we don't hear about.

Joe: Um, yes. What most people hear about is the direct threat to their lives from terrorists, specifically Muslim or Arab terrorism. And that's by design of course as we've talked about in previous shows that terrorism is to essentially; it's basically a way to control. It's a large-scale psy-op, and there's no better emotion than fear to control people. And terrorism does that job very well controlling people through fear, through direct threat to their lives. But obviously there is a hidden agenda and behind that - as with any case where any power or government attempts to control people - they are doing it for a specific reason. Of course just controlling people can be a means to an end in itself, but there's also other interests being served by this terror threat and in fact, what we are going to try and explain through the course of this show, is that threat is actually bogus.
There really isn't (a threat) to the world, to America, to the West, to our freedoms and democracies, to our Dunkin' Donuts, and...

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: You know, Superbowls.

Niall: There was a time when if someone had told me that I would have said you're pulling my leg because it's so prevalent, it's so everywhere. How could there be nothing there, you know?

Joe: Well there's evidence for it, right? That's why...

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: People don't believe it. There's evidence for a terror threat in the form of terrorist attacks.

Niall: Right.

Joe: People are uppity, so that's an important ingredient in the plan to convince people of the reality of the terror threat. You have to manufacture the reality of a terror threat.

Niall: Okay, it's an incredible concept when you think about it; I mean a war on terror. What is terror? Terror is an extreme, extremely negative human emotion, right? So what are we going to do? We are going to declare a war on your worst fears.

Joe: Yeah, but it's also a tactic; a war on terrorism. It's a tactic but in the same way is it even plausible to wage a war, a global war on a tactic?

Jason: Well I think that the most interesting thing about the entire situation is that the more war they declare on terror the more terrified people become, and so it's kind of like, obviously it's not working. I mean because people are becoming more and more afraid, and you know, what's that definition of insanity? Doing things again and again and expecting different results. So you know, I mean it's not really working because are more afraid then they were before.

Joe: But that's the point.

Jason: I mean before 9/11 I was never afraid of terrorism, now I'm always afraid of it! And with each year you're always getting more and more afraid and it's just like wait a minute, hold on a second here, you know it's just like they come up with all this GMO stuff, right? We're going to fix starvation and more and more keep starving so it's like at what point are we going to say wait a minute, you know you're not working.

Niall: There's definitely a pattern there. I mean who was it, Nixon declared a war on drugs?

Jason: Yeah, look how bad that situation is now, you know. (laughter)

Niall: So, we'll declare a war on something and somehow it will metastasize, proliferate and just get totally out of control.

Jason: Well, yeah. Because at this point people, you've got to start understanding that it's completely and totally manufactured; totally manufactured. Nothing more than manufactured. They come out and say something is important, the exact opposite of what they're saying is important, is important. They say terrorism is a danger. Terrorism is not a danger, look in the exact opposite direction. I mean that's basically like the way it's become.

Niall: I hear you but as Joe just mentioned there are real cases where, you know, actual real - in quotes - "terrorist" attacks happen and people do die as a result.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah so obviously, and like I said, an important ingredient in convincing people of the reality of the war, or the reality of a threat, is to carry out terrorist attacks. I mean people feel it as a threat, a personal threat against their own lives, so the only way you can make that real is to attack them personally. You take their lives and publicize it widely so that the people who haven't been directly affected by the attack get to feel a little bit of it as well.

Jason: But then by their own sort of bullshit that they propagate, that just creates more, you know, that just supposedly just makes them hate you more so that the more you kill them the more they spring up. It's the...

Joe: Well, no we're talking here about the people at home, like attacking people that you want to convince of the reality of a terror threat; attack those people to make them believe the terror threat against them is real.

Jason: Ah, I see.

Joe: Of course, like what you're saying as well is true is that the war on terrorism has done nothing if it hasn't created far more terrorism; far more potential or even real terrorists.

Jason: I think there are real terrorists.

Joe: But the...

Jason: I think there really are real terrorists out there, and I think that there are more today than there were, you know, on 9/11 type situation. Obviously because of all the crap that the Western powers have been doing, so they just create it.

Joe: Of course, but then you can't really call those people terrorists. If, if, I get...

Jason: Well I mean we should be honest about the term terrorism. Terrorism is defined by an established authority. Anyone who like says crap against them; basically, they choose how they're going to define terrorism. I mean the English called the American Revolutionaries terrorists.

Joe: Of course.

Jason: That's just what they do, you know?

Joe: Yeah so they try to make it personal for Americans or people in western Europe and America; they try to make it personal by saying that (inaudible) but that's not enough. They tell people in the West these terrorists hate you for your freedoms and for who you are.

Jason: That's absurd.

Joe: They hate you because you're free. They basically; these terrorists hate freedom. They don't like being free themselves.

Jason: Well...

Joe: I mean they lock themselves up every day just to feel a little bit of anti-freedom.

Jason: The Government doesn't want to admit the fact that that the terrorists, quote, unquote; let's just pretend they exist for a minute even though that's a questionable situation; the terrorists hate the government, what they feel the government did to them, right?

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And so the government is sitting there saying "no, they hate you for their freedoms" because nobody says, they don't want people to wake up and say well what the hell did you guys do to make the guys hate you so much?

Joe: Yeah, that's why...

Jason: Well what have you been doing, while we were...

Joe: Well that's why they have to pass off the plausible narrative that they are a group of a large number of people who simply hate the idea of freedom.

Jason: Right.

Joe: And therefore anybody who adheres to the ideas of freedom or supports the idea of freedom or lives, supposedly a free life, then you are, by definition hated by the terrorists because as I said these terrorists don't; they actually hate freedom. They, every day, terrorists lock themselves up, you know, they lock themselves in the back and throw themselves into a small, kind of like a box just to indulge their love of anti-freedom.

Jason: Right, yeah.

Joe: Obviously.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Well obviously they do that because they hate freedom. I mean how can they even just walk around...

Jason: I mean...

Joe: In the street and feel freedom when they hate it so much? It must piss them off seriously. And then when they see Americans walking around streets and going into like Dunkin' Donuts and stuff; Jesus Christ I would be livid! (laughter)

Jason: Gurdjieff once said if you want to understand men's' behaviours, you know, think about yourself and how you act. Judge them by your Self, and that's what Americans should do. They should sit there and say "wait a minute; under what conditions do I hate somebody with such vehemence that I would do horrible things?" And none of them just hate arbitrarily; no one hates arbitrarily. That's complete and total bullshit. That's a fantasy person; a fantasy person who hates without reason. The reason could be wrong, hey, they could totally be wrong, but no one just wakes up one day and says "Oh I'm going to hate somebody so bad that I'll blow myself and my baby up to do something bad to them." Nobody does that. You have to be driven to that kind of thing.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And that's the experience of most normal people and so a normal person hearing this kind of rhetoric from the government should take pause and say "wait a minute, nobody acts like that. What did you do to make them so pissed at you?" You know, then it turns out they did quite a lot of things, actually.

Niall: Well, according to the British government, mothers do wake up and blow up their own babies because they hate freedom so much. This is a story from 2006.
"Hunt on for baby bombers. Hate-filled moms willing to sacrifice themselves and their babies are being hunted on in the war on terror. Security sources confirmed last night that alleged baby bombers were among those arrested over the plot to massacre thousands by downing Trans-Atlantic flights."

Niall: Uh, let's see.
"The discovery prompted fear that there were fanatical mothers in secret Al-Qaeda cells in Britain ready to be become suicide bombers and die with their tots in their arms."

Jason: I mean...

Niall: And that's not tongue and cheek!

Jason: I know that was some serious shit!

Niall: I mean that was a serious like...

Jason: I finally; I've been trying for months to find a term for this, right? I talked to you before about this and I've decided to call it "And-Then'ing". You know when you're a kid and you're on the schoolyard...

Niall: Right.

Jason: And there was that kid who was trying to gross out the girls and there would be some girls there and there would be a little boy and he'd be either trying to do something or say something to make them go 'ewwww, that's disgusting.'

Niall: Right.

Jason: And he would say, you know like, and then the guy had booger's coming out of his nose, and then nobodies surprised, and then he ate them! And you, everything keep's getting progressively worse, right?

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: And that's what these guys are doing. It's like this puerile, schoolyard mentality of "And then they do this; Oh! That doesn't surprise you? Oh, and then they might do this, you know!" And they just keep upping the ante until they get some sort of shock or rise out of you.

Niall: Well, yeah. The telltale sign is that they go too far and things become so implausible...

Jason: Yeah, well at one point...

Niall: And they keep trying now, they keep trying but, I mean there was a...

Jason: Well at one point in the article he says it may seem beyond belief but we're convinced it's true, right? And then it's like, it's like if something's too good to be true it probably isn't; if something is "beyond belief" it's probably not true.


Jason: The reason they say that is because they kind of realize in their head, that 'wow this is really kind of out there and people won't believe it', but we have to say "we're utterly convinced!" It's like... Bullshit. You're making it up.

Niall: We've had an underwear bomber.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: A bra bomber I believe, or an attempted bra bomber; a shoe bomber.

Joe: A boob bomber.

Jason: A boob bomber?

Joe: Really, the boob bomber was the allegation that terrorists would use...

Niall: Silicon implants lined with C4?

Joe: Or just C4 implants masquerading as silicon implants.


Niall: My god!

Jason: These people! I have to kind of laugh at the situation because I begin to wonder. I know it's horrible; it's really totally horrible the kind of stuff these guys are talking about and what they're doing to populations; they're terrifying people. But, in a certain sense, I mean a lot of this stuff seems like it was written by a comedian, you know? Who was just sitting there trying to come up with the most absurd claim possible, and it seems like they have a competition between them like which government can come up with the most absurd claim about what the terrorists are going to be doing, you know? Ink cartridges, you know; explosives breast implants, you know, and this kind of psychopathic one-up-man-ship game of who can come up with the most absurd conspiracy and get people to believe it, you know?

Joe: Well yeah, I think it is made up from a psychopathic mindset of not really knowing, not really dealing in facts or reality, but basically "what comes out of my head is reality". The truth is, is a fact.

Niall: And not really...

Joe: And under those conditions, anything goes, really.

Jason: I think they're gaming people, you know? I mean I think they're really sort of like chuckling to themselves; they're like 'hah, I'm gonna say this, let's see if they believe it.' And you know...

Joe: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.

Jason: You know, I actually don't think they believe this stuff, you know? No, they don't believe this stuff.

Joe: Well...

Jason: They're just making it up; they're trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and getting off on it. Its duper's delight, you know? That's all it is. It's the delight of getting people to believe you when you've told them...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: A complete bullshit story.

Niall: The thing is, substantial numbers of people do believe, more or less, these stories. I mean obviously then, I'm sure they raise their eyebrows like us some these tales, but enough of them must believe it that they are going along with it.

Joe: Well, there's a fear factor, you know.

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: And the...

Jason: This is...

Joe: Problem is true.

Jason: Go ahead, Joe.

Joe: The problem is there are some Muslims - because this is a Muslim war, not just any old terror threat but this is largely Muslim terror threat - and there are some Muslims, you know, let's say intellectually challenged from inner-city areas of Western Europe and America, who kind of get caught up in the whole...

Jason: Sure.

Joe: Propaganda. The other side of the propaganda which is equally controlled by Western governments which is, you know, they control "Al-Qaeda" propaganda by disseminating it. And there's these young; kind of gullible Muslim guys who get caught up in it and who will hatch plots; but kind of really ill-conceived plots they have no chance in hell of ever pulling off. But of course, in the UK for example, MI5 would be listening in, would have identified them or someone would have mentioned them to the Police in a hysterical kind of setting, you know; tell on your neighbour type thing. So they'd listen in on them and hear the details of their plot.
There was one just a few weeks ago in in Birmingham in the UK where these three guys. They were kind of scam artists posing as charity workers or Muslim charity and just keeping the money and stuff, and they had been talking; all of this had been recorded my MI5, the British Intelligence Service. They had been talking with each other - while they were tooling around up in a car in the evening looking for something to do - about, you, know carrying out some bombing or something, or shooting people or "we'll go and get people". And you know one of their ideas was to attach blades to a monster truck, to the wheels of a monster truck and drive it through a crowded area...

Jason: (Chuckles)

Joe: So this is the level of discourse that they're dealing with in dealing with in these people but it's being recorded by MI5, and it's taken to court and the media spreads far and wide, you know; It's going to be worse than the 7/7 bombings and these three guys come across as complete idiots with no chance whatsoever of ever doing anything of what they are talking about, just blowhard's basically.

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: You know, and like I said about intellectually challenged as well. But, they're used as fodder...

Jason: Right.

Joe: for the war on Terror mill and spread; the threat; the renewed threat is spread by the media and it's just ridiculous, you know? And that has happened over and over again. In the last, since 9/11, those kinds of events have been the meat and bones, or meat and potatoes...

Jason/Niall: (Chuckles)

Joe: Of the; of the terror threat. Those kinds of things have been the evidence for the reality of a terror threat continuing to exist since 9/11. And they've all; like those three guys in Birmingham were; they wouldn't have come up with it themselves. I mean, they didn't have any bomb-making materials, they didn't have any plans, they didn't; one of them thought; one of them had been talking about a sports drink...

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: And that there were chemicals in the sports drink that they could make a bomb out of. So that was the extent of their planning and their plot.

Niall: Brawndo!

Joe: Yeah, Brawndo. But that's what...

Jason: That's what suicide bombers crave!


Joe: Yeah!

Jason: "It has electrolytes".

Joe: But nevertheless they were held up by the media and held up by the government as a serious terror threat and they were like 'phew, we just, we missed that one by the skin of our teeth, those guys were gonna do some serious damage.'

Jason: I mean, they were going to steal the Gravedigger, attach blades to its wheels and drive through, you know...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: What's that famous, the famous...

Joe: Camden Market or something.

Jason: Camden Market in London with Gravediiiggeer!

Joe: Yeah, but these guys supposedly came up with it themselves, although I don't know if they may well have had a helper from the government, but many other incidence like that over the past; since 9/11 really, have all involved, - in the UK, but particularly in the US - basically a sting operation; entrapment by the authorities, by the FBI. The FBI have mounted, literally dozens...

Niall: I think its hundreds...

Joe: Yeah, but really well publicized ones?

Niall: Right.

Joe: Of operations, sting operations. Where they find - like I said again - inner-city, impoverished, intellectually challenged young guys; they don't even have to be Muslim sometimes, and they set them up to be terrorists. Because there is no other evidence of this terrorist threat, so they have to find evidence. So, basically the FBI will either do it directly or they'll have one of their informants go and contact this guy. One of the; let's see, there's this one from 2009; May 20, 2009, "US law enforcement arrested four black, Muslim men in connection with a plot to shoot down military airplanes flying out of an Air National Guard Base in Newburgh, New York and blow up two synagogues".
So they were arrested in May 2009. Four men were identified as; they've got four names. They were basically 27, 28, 32, one of them was 55, and they were all residents of Newburgh in Upstate New York. Their lawyer filed a motion to have the case dismissed on the grounds that the bomb; the plot to bomb synagogues was entirely the brainchild of the FBI, and the men were used by the FBI's professional informant, Shahed Hussain. The defendant's lawyer claimed that Hussain's job involved visiting suburban Mosques in an effort to find members with anti-American leaning's and recruit them to join a fake terror plot, supposedly funded by a Pakistan based group.
And here's the interesting part. This is par for the course in these kinds of sting operations. "In baiting the men, the FBI informant drove around in an FBI-supplied BMW or Hummer and other cars to make him appear well funded. He suggested to the defendant's that he could provide them with $250,000. He attempted to incite the defendant's by blaming Jews for the world's evil and telling them that attacks against non-Muslims was endorsed by Islam." These guys didn't know this, apparently.

Jason/Niall: (Laughter)

Joe: "The suggested targets that the defendant's wanted to attack, he paid for the defendant's groceries, he bought them a gun, he provided fake bombs and missiles, he assembled explosive devices for them and he acted as their chauffer." These guys basically just said "we can get some money out of this guy so let's just pretend..."

Niall: Play along.

Joe: Let's play along, yeah. We want to be terrorists just keep the money coming, you know? Keep buying our groceries and driving us around. And so, the upshot of those kinds of cases is that at a certain point when the FBI informant hands them this sort of plastic bomb or something, the FBI swoop in, grab them and it's a...

Niall: Slam dunk.

Joe: Terror plot foiled!

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: A really near-miss, that one.

Niall: It's all over the headlines.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: Of course when it comes to court it usually collapses. But it doesn't matter because by then...

Jason: But...

Niall: You are already on the next story.

Jason: Yeah, the thing is...

Niall: You've moved on.

Jason: The press moves fast.

Joe: Yeah, but very often it doesn't collapse. Very often the people are sent down for years...

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: Oh, right.

Joe: On the basis of this. It doesn't collapse at all. That's the horrible thing.

Jason: I mean the big problem there is like you get four stupid people, you know, I mean we have to sort of define whether or not they were mentally retarded which does actually sound like maybe they could have been or, you know, a bunch of little opportunistic assholes who want to play that game. To be quite honest I'm not going to cry about them going to jail after, you know, willing being able to play along even for money, you know. I mean...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: That's actually a little bit more distasteful then...

Joe: Well they...

Jason: That they were willing to play along with such an idea for money, you know. I mean that's kind of actually a little bit sickening.

Joe: Well they were (inaudible) criminals, you know.

Jason: Well, obviously. That's the contrived situation and I think; I don't think I've actually read of a real terrorist attack, to be quite honest. I've read a couple of accounts of so-called terrorist situations and terror plots but I don't think I've actually read a real one. I mean, I believe in the possibility of terrorism, totally. I mean, I believe in the possibility of any kind of terrorism.

Joe: Well I believe in the possibility; I believe in the reality of it. It's perpetrated by governments all around the world and always has been.

Jason: Well yeah this is essentially Trinquier and Frank Kitson.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: The Kitson doctrine that came out of, you know, Algeria and Malaysia and Kenya which is basically they came up through this whole idea. Of course they are putting it in their own way; in order to inoculate the population against the possibility of being revolutionized against the government, they had to basically perpetrate a propaganda and terrorism campaign against their own citizens to get them to hate...

Joe: The people they wanted to conquer.

Jason: Yeah, to hate those people, you know. And they basically explicitly say that. Trinquier says it in his book and Kitsen also talks about the same sort of process. So there's an established way of doing this; mind wars. Its mind war directed; it's propaganda and mind war against your own population.

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: Speaking of informants and entrapment. I was watching earlier today The Power of Nightmares, a great documentary by a British guy who's name escapes me, but there's a 10 minute session there on the origins of Al-Qaeda, specifically, oh you've got a clip of that there?

Joe: I do indeed.

Niall: Excellent. I think we should play that for people because this is the first time that Al-Qaeda gets mentioned, at least in the West. This is January 2001 before the attacks on 9/11.

Joe: Okay.
"Even Bin Laden's displays of strength to the Western Media were faked. The fighters in this video have been hired for the day and told to bring their own weapons. But beyond his own small group, Bin Laden had no formal organization until the Americans invented one for him.
In January 2001, a trial began in a Manhattan courtroom of the four men accused of the Embassy bombings in East Africa. But the Americans had also decided to prosecute Bin Laden in his absence. But to do this under American law prosecutors needed evidence of a criminal organization because as with the mafia that would allow them to prosecute the head of the organization even if he could not be directly linked to the crime. And the evidence for them were provided by an ex-associate of Bin Laden's called Jamal al-Fadl.
During the investigations of the 1998 bombings, there is a walk-in source, Jamal al-Fadl, who's a Sudanese militant who was with Bin Laden in the early 90's who has been passed around a whole series of Middle Eastern Secret Services, none of whom want much to do with him, who ends up in America and is taken on by the American government, effectively as a key prosecution witness and given a huge amount of American taxpayers money at the same time.
His account was used as raw material to build up a picture of Al-Qaeda. The picture that the FBI want to build up is one that will fit the existing laws, that they will have to use to prosecute those responsible for the bombing. Now those laws were drawn up to counteract organized crime, the Mafia, drugs crime; crimes where people being a member of organization is extremely important. You have to have an organization to get a prosecution; and you have al-Fadl and a number of other witnesses, a number of other sources who are happy to feed into this, who have got material that when looked at in a certain way can be seen to show this organization's existence. You put the two together and you get what is the first Bin Laden myth; the first Al-Qaeda myth. And because it's one of the first it's extremely influential.
Narrator: The picture al-Fadl drew for the Americans of Bin Laden, was an all-powerful figure at the head of a large terrorist network that had an organized hierarchy of control. He also said that Bin Laden had given this network a name; Al-Qaeda. It was a dramatic and powerful picture of Bin Laden but it bore little relationship to the truth. The reality was that Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri had become the focus of a loose association of disillusioned Islamist militants who were attracted by the new stratagem. But there was no organization. These were militants who mostly planned their own operations and looked to Bin Laden for funding and assistance. He was not their commander. There was also no evidence Bin Laden used the term Al-Qaeda to refer to the name of a group until after September the 11th. And he realized that this was the term that the Americans given.
In reality, Jamal al-Fadl was on the run from Bin Laden having stolen money from him. In return for his evidence, the Americans gave him witness protection in America and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Many lawyers at the trial believed that al-Fadl exaggerated and lied to give the Americans the picture of a terrorist organization that they needed to prosecute Bin Laden.
Interview: And there were selective portions of al-Fadl's testimony, that I believe was false, to help support the picture that he helped the Americans join together. I think he lied in a number of specific testimony about a unified image of what this organization was. It made Al-Qaeda the new Mafia or the new communists. It made them identifiable as a group and therefore made it easier to prosecute any person associated with Al-Qaeda for any acts or statements made by Bin Laden, who talked a lot."
Niall: Mhm.

Jason: Conveniently.

Joe: Yeah!

Jason: Whenever anybody was saying like 'oh the terror threat's not so bad, then Osama Bin Laden would make a video, oh by the way the terror threat's very reeeaalll!'

Joe: Yeah, "Bin Laden", end quotes would make a video because I'm sure people are aware that there have been many videos of Bin Laden and also audios of Bin Laden and very few of them actually seem to be Bin Laden. In fact, several of them are clearly not Bin Laden in the videos and at least one audio.

Jason: Did you ever read...

Joe: The voice has been confirmed as not being Bin Laden by a Swiss lab.

Jason: Have you ever read 1984, where the people would do, I think it was called like the two minutes of hate or whatever it was...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: They would go into the theatre and they would see like a whole bunch of people getting shot up and guts spilling everywhere and they would laugh and cheer and stuff like that and then at the end there would be this big head on the screen of Emmanuel Goldstein and he would say stuff like I hate your whatever and the goodness of your government and all this different stuff.

Niall: I hate you for your freedoms.

Jason: I hate you for your freedoms, and it was really convenient this Emmanuel Goldstein guy kept making these videos justifying the war against them, type of thing, you know? And of course I think it's later revealed that Emmanuel Goldstein is just working for the government, or maybe he's just dead or something, I don't know, making it all up basically. And that's who Bin Laden was, you know. Bin Laden's not the boogeyman he's Emmanuel Goldstein and they killed him off so now they're going to come up with another one, obviously, but...

Niall: Well, about that, I mean they got nearly 11 years out of him?

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: And the guy probably died in December. There was a report that he had died on December 13th, 2001, so none of those videos were probably Bin Laden saying 'yes I'm Al-Qaeda and yes, I did it.'

Joe: Yeah, the first few may have been...

Niall: He never used the name Al-Qaeda himself.

Joe: No, he didn't, no. And also they probably had some archive video of him, but, yeah there's a bunch of ones of the later videos...

Jason: Well how many like Arabic lip readers...

Joe: Where he's clearly an; clearly an imposter.

Jason: Did they have? What was it, lip-sync? If all is translated, you don't know what he said, you know?

Joe: Yeah, well...

Niall: Well, there was one video where they did get some analysis so you could, you know, see him on screen and the subtitles are saying he's saying one thing and then somebody spoke up and said "I speak that language", (laughs) "he didn't say that at all", you know?

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: They can just say whatever.

Niall: But it doesn't matter, they can get away with it because...

Joe: The guy...

Niall: Most people aren't going to pay attention.

Joe: Yeah, the guy...

Jason: Most western people don't speak Arabic.

Niall: For example.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: You know?

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: It's convenient.

Joe: The guy in that audio we just listened to made an interesting point at the end there. I don't know if he made it on purpose but he said basically that the terrorists; the Muslin terrorist threat is a replacement for the Communist threat. And that's very true when you think about it because what the terrorist really is for; what the Muslim terror threat is for; this hidden agenda, apart from scaring people, it also gets people in Western nations to support the war on terror which is basically American and Western government; Western Military intervention in other countries. And that's the kind of hidden agenda. You have to have an enemy to fight. You have to have an enemy entrenched in a certain country who is in some way supposedly a threat to you, so you have to go and invade that country.

Joe: Occupy it; bomb it.

Jason: I mean, like even when you think about it, the American population has lived in perpetual fear since the end of; since the beginning of World War 2; basically, you look at it.

Joe: Mhm.

Jason: They've lived in perpetual fear. You know, first it was the fear of the Germans, once that was done it was the fear of the Communists, and then once the Communist situation was taken care of now it's the fear of the, you know, the terrorists. I mean, the American population has lived in a state of perpetual fear for the better part of almost a century at this point now; I think its 70 years now. So, 70 years of total fear fed by the Government. What I think happened, was at the end of World War 2, the CIA; or the OSS at the time, actually; brought over the German scientists from Project Paperclip and the first question they had to ask was 'How the hell did you guys do it?!'
Because they were; I mean they probably blew these guys minds. How did Hitler maintain such control and get all the population to fund this war and do all these horrible things because, man, sure we'd love to. Because, I mean if you're in the OSS or the CIA you're a psycho! I mean, just plain and simple, you know? That's just what you are. And so...

Joe: Yeah! So any of our listeners, if you are in the CIA, if you want to contest Jason's statement that you're a psycho...

Jason: You are.

Joe: Please call in and we will evaluate you, live on air.

Jason: I don't want any CIA to...

Joe: No? Okay, don't call in.


Joe: Write us an email...

Jason: Write us an email.

Joe: Telling us why you're not a psycho.

Jason: 'I'm not a psycho.'

Joe: Well kind of; the whole Communism thing...

Jason: I think... because there's this whole criminal organization, right, you know? I mean this whole charging somebody that's a participant in a criminal organization for the acts committed by their boss, right? This is the whole Mafia thing, right? So when you work for an organization that does terrible things from the top, okay, you are culpable for it. We've already established that in our laws. We used that to prosecute Al-Qaeda, we used that to prosecute Mafia; we should use that to prosecute people, members of the CIA. Because when the CIA does criminal things then, you know, it has become, it has done something criminal and needs to be prosecuted under the rules that have been established: That when you are in an organization, and you do bad shit, there are people; even if that person is just filing papers for the CIA; they are contributing to the giant, horrible machine that did those horrible things and therefore they are culpable.
It's like this; the accountant for the Mafia is still charged with just as much as the enforcer on the street who kills people, just as much as the boss who gives the orders. You are a member of a criminal organization who has done criminal things and therefore any aid you give to that organization during their criminal activity is a criminal act, as long as you could be said to have been aware that it was actually a criminal act. And there's no possibility that a person in the CIA could not have access to it when we do! And we're just these regular Joe's reading the news every day and we know they're criminals, and if you work for the CIA you should know it's criminal too; and if you don't you're a bad person.

Niall: Part of the problem is that much like the mythical Al-Qaeda, people who are, in quotes, "in the CIA", often are not actually aware that they are in the CIA...

Jason: Oh yeah, that's true...

Niall: Or rather they have illusions about being in the CIA, but, like the so-called terrorist networks, they're illusive; their membership is not defined, it's not on paper, it's...

Jason: Yeah, I mean sure; yeah...

Niall: Sure they have some things on paper, there are people officially on the CIA payroll, but we're talking about an organization that is so much bigger than officially exists.

Jason: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Niall: Hence its ability to reach in and...

Jason: Right, absolutely...

Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah, spreading...

Niall: Their corruption is all over the world.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: You were going to; you were talking about connecting it to Communism there and I think there is an interesting point where these two narratives of; we're going after this country because there is a Communist threat brewing there, or; we're going after this country because they are harboring Muslim terrorists...

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: The two meet in the 70's; the late 70's...

Joe: Yeah, and I mean...

Niall: In Afghanistan.

Joe: Yeah, most people probably know more or less about the idea that Afghanistan was the breeding ground, supposedly, for modern day Al-Qaeda. In that when the Russians invaded Afghanistan, the Americans decided to arm a bunch of fundi, right-wing, Muslim, nut jobs to fight against them; to give them a bunch of RPG's and anti-aircraft missiles and that was about it; and lots of money and training, and they fought against the Russians.
But the thing about that was that the Russians were baited, as Brzezinski, the National Security Advisor under Carter, has said, that the Americans deliberately provoked the Russians to invade Afghanistan, because they knew they would be able to bog them down in 'their Vietnam', as he called it...

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: But the thing is, at the time and years leading up to it; the Russians really; Afghanistan at the time was on the border of the Soviet Union, so it was their backyard, it was their sphere of influence, you know? And the Americans were kind of meddling. And there was an unofficial agreement; although it wasn't met at most times; but there was an unofficial agreement that the Soviets had their sphere of influence and the Americans had theirs and there were other areas where they kind of fought over, but Afghanistan was definitely within the Soviet sphere of influence; it was right on their southern border
So the Soviets were happy enough, if the Americans agreed to it, to basically just set up a kind of neutral government in Afghanistan, largely secular and, you know, not hardline either way. Not, not hardline Islamic and not hardline Communist or Socialist. And the Russians really didn't want to invade, but the Americans wanted them to invade to give them their Vietnam and just basically make them look bad, bog them down, and give them a bad experience.

Jason: It was a tar baby kind of thing.

Joe: Yes, but at the same time the other agenda was to install a right-wing, fundamentalist, Islamic government, or, you know, put the fundi-Islamists in power more or less in Afghanistan, because I mean throughout; since the second World War and all of the Americans and their pretty little adventures, they have always found common cause in a country where there was an option between a kind of Socialist movement, or a...I mean in those days they called themselves Communists but they weren't really Communists. They were kind of like; they just wanted a social democracy, they wanted basically...

Jason: They wanted healthcare and jobs.

Joe: They wanted, yeah.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: They wanted social; social justice, basically.

Jason: I mean they didn't care what they called it as long as they got healthcare and jobs, you know.

Joe: Absolutely, yeah.

Jason: You can call it whatever you want.

Joe: So that was the natural; and in most country's that's the natural; when the people rise up for things that's what they rise up for, they have a revolution for. Better jobs or jobs, better pay, better kind of living conditions in general. For the Americans that's the worst option basically, because they want to control the country, they want the country to be a client state and to have...

Jason: I'll never understand that because they could have their cake and eat it too, you know. I mean they could have that. I mean...

Joe: Well...

Jason: There's a mean-streak about the psychopathic aspects of government that makes them actively want to not have that, just because they want to hurt people; like there's a sadism about it.

Joe: There probably is in a psychopathic sort of way.

Jason: Because you could have an absolute total tyrannical government that still gave you healthcare, you know.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely.

Jason: I mean you could, you know.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And that wouldn't be as bad as what you end up getting.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: But it's the mean-spiritedness of the Pathocrats that makes that makes them...

Joe: Exactly, there's definitely that aspect as well. And from a political aspect, the American government and the CIA knew that if you allow a social democracy with some nice guy like in Chile with Salvador Allende... And there was a guy in Afghanistan at the time before the Soviet invasion; Daoud his name was. They were more or less decent people in the sense that they wanted; I mean Allende was a great guy, and Daoud in Afghanistan wanted the same things. Which was he wanted to free women, basically and pass land reform; because women at that time were heavily influenced by the whole Islamic code. They weren't allowed out in public and all that stuff and he wanted to give them jobs in politics and a normal life and he wanted to, you know, change the kind of land system where it was more equally distributed...

Jason: In all fairness...

Joe: And all this kind of stuff. But the problem is, if he allowed some kind of an option like that to establish a government and his party to establish a government, those people invariably say 'Whoa! You see our natural resources? We're going to want to keep those for ourselves and for the development of our country.'

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: And the Americans fundamentally, invading any country, want access to those resources for themselves. So that kind of government is not the kind of government that the Americans have ever supported. And when they're faced with the option between that kind of a government, or that kind of a group taking power, and the fundi-Islamists who don't really want that kind of thing because most of them want to go back to the Stone-Age. And they are very small but with American help they can become quite large and influential. The Americans always side with the fundi's. And that's what they've done; and that's what they did in Afghanistan.
By arming them to fight the Soviets and basically allowing them to turn into the Taliban and then to go war against them, later, to justify, you know, a renewed invasion and also, I mean people probably have heard of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan that initially was basically these same fundi's that the Americans had trained and funded to fight the Soviets; they were now; after the Americans invaded in 2001 or 2002. This Northern Alliance who were helping the Americans to hunt down Al-Qaeda were basically Al-Qaeda. They were the same, I mean, not; like we've just heard Al-Qaeda doesn't exist, so it becomes very complicated in that sense where you...

Jason: I mean, it's all lies...

Joe: Are talking about a group that doesn't exist and you have the American government supporting a group that's the same as the group that they're fighting. I mean that's what going on in Syria today as well.

Jason: Yeah, when you're with like; when you're dealing with any government; I mean you should just immediately not believe anything that they say, and like I said before, believe the exact opposite, you know. I mean, if they say they are going to go in and hunt Al-Qaeda, they're not. Just automatically invert everything they say.
And the thing is, is that 90% of the time, like you'll get closer to the truth, and 10% yeah, maybe they actually did tell you the truth. But as a general rule, the government wraps 10% of truth in 90% of lies. They give you a tiny little kernel of truth and they wrap it up in a big-fat lie. If you just invert it on its head you'll probably be close to the truth.

Niall: And most of those lies are lies by omission.

Jason: A lot of...

Niall: The context of Afghanistan, you know "oh this great big terror threat, this Muslim terror threat"; yeah, the one that you created (laughter).

Jason: I'm always big on this quoting this (inaudible) you know, and today's age would be all the more likely to follow a tyrannical government by the very fact that there doesn't appear to be one because so much of America's power is exercised by indirect implication of things. Things that they don't tell you...

Niall: Right.

Jason: Exert power over you because you can't make informed choices, right? So this whole concealing information, National security, lies by omission, that's how they exercise their power most of the time. The thing is that most people don't see thousands of soldiers running through the streets pulling people out of houses and shooting them, so they think that if it's going to be a dictatorship or it's going to be fascism or it's going to be all these horrible types of government's that they've heard about; they think that it's going to be like that.
But they don't realize that when the speaker of the House says something or the White House Secretary does those little things or, you know, Obama with his State of the Union type of thing; when he lies to you he is exercising a kind of power over you by not telling you the whole story. And what's even worse is that he's actually kind of exercising another kind of power when he gets you to agree to the fact that it's okay for him to not tell you.
The minute that you accept that it's okay for the government not to be transparent, it's okay for the government to keep secrets and decide what secrets it should keep, you've given away power that you don't really understand what you've given away. And then you have created a kind of tyranny of omissions; of omissions of abilities; of 'Well you could do something but you can't so you might as well not have these particular rights.'
You know you have this freedom of speech but you can't really do anything with it so it's kind of arbitrary that you even have it, you know. So in a certain sense the tyranny of the American government is not jackboots in the street with armed people even though there, there's a little bit of that; you know there's all these heavily-armed, paramilitary police people in like, you know, airports and train stations and all this different stuff, so yeah there's a little bit of that.
But as a general rule, the enforcement of this type of tyranny in America is really about controlling the information and about presenting incorrect information to you for you to consume, omitting the truth, fabricating lies, and you don't have access to any other information, you kind of have to lie because the only thing to eat.. It's like you into a kitchen and there's a McDonald's hamburger on the table and that's the only food in the house, it's like yeah you're gonna eat it (laughter)
You know, it would be nice to have some steak and potatoes. It would be nice to have a big fat pork chop, but you can't because there's no pork chops. And that's how the government in America, specifically; but I think most Western governments have learned to rule this way because it's extremely difficult to combat.
There can be no revolution against that. There really can't. There can't be an armed revolution in the United States; there can't be an armed revolution in the West. It would be pointless, futile, bloody, stupid, corrupt and everything; it is such a notoriously bad idea. There can't be. And that's the solution. They've thought about this from the history of all this different stuff, of all these different revolutions, of all these different sort of revolutionary movements. You know from all the way back in the days of, you know, James the 2nd up into the American Revolution, Civil War, you know, the Civil Rights Movement especially.
Like the Civil Rights Movement or the Peace Movements in the 60's that really got them thinking 'how are we going to prevent this because we have all these people who are generally good-hearted and non-violent and they're resisting us! They found a way to resist us without shooting at us, it's amazing!' Right, and so the answer that they came up with is to create this kind of government where all the controls are exerted indirectly; they never come at you directly; there's never a policeman at the door saying if you don't believe what we tell you we're going to shoot you. They never do that. It's all like you won't have a job anymore...

Niall: Yeah, the threat is not...

Jason: You won't have a job.

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: You won't have this. You won't have a support. You won't be this, you won't be that; everything. They organize society, they divide it up, section it off. They organize society to act as counter-balancing forces against each other so the poor against the rich and the middle class against the upper class against this class against that class, and the people with this and the people with that, and each person with each, like "I'm Californian" and all this different stuff; they split people up. They put them in their cliques. Even like Mac users versus Windows users versus Linux users!
I mean, they just have infinite level and they encourage it. They don't design it. They just encourage that natural tendency in people to group off, and then they antagonize the,m and then they start antagonizing each other! It's like what I talk about in my article. They just keep the ball rolling. All they did was get the ball rolling. What you see today are just sort of epiphenomena's of that seed event, of just trying to split people away from each other, and then they just started kind of doing it on their own, you know?
That was a very long; I kinda...

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: Was all over the place. Sorry! Anyways, indirect power, that's how they do it; they're not going to point a gun. There's probably not going to be any official removal of the First Amendment or even official removal of the Second Amendment from like the Constitution, it's all just going to be by implication and indirection and...

Niall: Yeah, well I was reading somewhere today that the US has not officially declared war since December, 1941...

Jason: Right.

Niall: Against Japan. Every single atrocity that's been committed since then...

Jason: Oh yeah.

Niall: Is implied power at work.

Jason: Right.

Niall: You know?

Jason: Yeah, exactly. It's never on paper.

Niall: Never on paper.

Jason: So then when you try to drill 'em on it they say 'No we didn't! We were just going in there to help, I swear.'

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: Prove it! You know, it's not what you know it's what you can prove.

Niall: What strikes me about the War on Terror, there are certain countries that play a leading role, obviously the US government is what's talked about mostly here.

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: Tony Blair's infamously now George Bush' poodle.

Joe: Mhm.

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: France comes to mind.

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: And Israel; those four countries in particular but also other European countries. Why is it that they are...

Jason: Is it any sort of mystery that it also turns out to be the richest countries that are kind of like at the top of the food chain when it comes to like economies; largest economies and stuff; it's money, you know. I mean...

Niall: It's sort of exercising an economic power, right?

Jason: Well, yeah, I mean in a certain sense, you know.

Joe: It's also all about the countries with the largest number of psychopaths...

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: In power; in positions of control. Because psychopaths have a kind of destructive impulse; a dominating, controlling and destructive impulse where they get their jollies from dominating and destroying other people, and if you're in a position of power in a major Western country and you're like that, well then the best way to 'get off' in that sense...

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Is to send in the troops or send in the drones or exercise that, that ... the creepy need...

Jason: In a certain sense the reason why I think that it's like this is because they're the countries with the most to lose; the populations have the most to lose because they have the most comfortable life, you see?

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: Aha!

Jason: They're less likely to make waves about it. When you have the good life, you know, you don't want to give it up so you're not going to make any waves, you know. And that's again about this whole exercise of power. It's easier to have power over people who have things to lose then it is about people who are already starving and already don't have a job and already living on the street in large populations. It's much more difficult to manage them in the way Western powers are done. I mean, we wouldn't have the same kind of tyrannies there. You kind of have to have a military tyranny when you have lots of poor people.

Niall: I often hear that, you know; people who say in the Anti-War Movement in the US; that they will argue we need to stop these wars, if only because they're bankrupting us.

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: They're bankrupting our economy.

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: Now they say that on the one hand but...

Joe: But they're not (inaudible), you know.

Niall: There's also great profit to be made.

Joe: Well there's no other; there's only profit to be made; there's only profit to be made from war.

Niall: And...

Jason: Money is the only...

Niall: And another thing that touches on something you said, Jason, are the wars; are they necessary for us in the West to sustain our relatively comfortable lifestyles?

Jason: Money is imaginary to begin with. So you can't go to the money thing because it's all kind of a bit of a joke anyway, right. It's kind of a bit of a play, it's this sort of stuff based on debt, moving numbers around and it's all based on the faith that those things are worth something. So you know, I mean, I don't really think that in the end it's really about money.

Joe: Well, at the level of corporations it would be about ...

Jason: Yeah, yeah.

Joe: Multinational corporations, it's about money; it's about getting access to raw materials for almost nothing.

Jason: In all fairness, no, it can't be even then. Because, right, these people have so much money; they have an inconceivable amount of money. To be fair, most of these large corporations have such an inconceivable; we're talking about; Goldman-Sachs has like trillions. They have more money than they could ever spend if they tried to buy like every Ferrari ever made in the history of the world and gold plate all of them, they still couldn't spend all the money that they have, right? So, I mean it can't be about money for them...

Joe: Well...

Jason: Because they have so much, they couldn't run out of it if they tried to buy a...

Joe: But that...

Jason: Ferrari in gold plated...

Joe: But that's the banks. At the level of corporation, they still have; they still want...

Jason: Well, how much money does Monsanto have?

Joe: Well, Monsanto's pretty big, but there are a lot of other corporations involved in; that need raw materials from around the world to produce products they want to produce as cheaply possible so they can enrich the CEO and all the VP's and stuff, but they're all being encouraged to do that. The banks, ultimately, money isn't a factor for the banks; for the banks it's about control; ownership.

Jason: Right.

Joe: Ownership of...

Jason: But if it was really about money then maintaining the economy and not bankrupting the living hell out of everything would be like kind of the point, you know.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: I mean they might just completely and totally incompetent which is something that I lean towards.

Joe: Yeah. We have a call here so we're going to take this call. Hi caller, what's your name? Where you calling from?

Caller: Hello.

Joe: Hello.

Caller: Hi, name is Silvio and I wonder.

(Background 'hello)

Joe: Silvio, can you turn your speakers down?

Niall: Yeah, we're getting feedback here.

Silvio: Yes, hi.

Jason: Hey Silvio, so what's your question?

Silvio: I'm from Romania. I was wondering if they are going to Afghanistan and Iraq and all these countries and they saying that they are fighting on terrorism, imagine if they would come; imagine if they would come to USA and things, what and you would be fighting, with them.

Joe: You mean if the terrorists came to the USA? Oh, we just lost them.

Jason: Uh-oh.

Joe: Next...

Jason: I couldn't even really understand what he was saying.

Joe: No, you could call back Silvio, you like, really, really...

Jason: Get him to post, get him to post on the...

Joe: Yeah or send it on the chat, chat window. But; yeah, so it's about...

Jason: It's aboot respect! {Scottish Accent}


Joe: It's about control. Ultimately it's about control of the resources and even beyond that, the resources of the planet, and beyond that, it's about control of the population. I mean, I hesitate to kind of posit that but it seems to me that that's the ultimate design or the ultimate...

Jason: I don't think there is a...

Joe: Result is that you have control, psychologically, over large numbers of people.

Jason: Right.

Joe: I mean who wants that? Does somebody want that or is that just a by-product? There like 'oh yeah we can control these people but that's not really what we want. We just want all the goodies.'

Jason: Yeah, like the goodies only makes sense when you have; people have them; and as I said, when you have societies, and when you have economies with levels of income and different jobs and stuff like that; I mean, having a bunch of poor people starve down the street is not really benefitting; is not necessary, right? I mean, I think in the end that the goal is actually just being evil and being mean.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And it really is this kind of just meanness, you know. It's just mean-spirited and I mean 'mean' in the very classical sense of the word of being the lowest possible kind of like, spiritual development in a person that makes them do these types of things. I think the goal is eventually; I mean psychopaths in power; they're just mean people.

Joe: Mmm.

Jason: They do it because it's fun for them and they're mean, you know? You know, it's not really in the end about money; it's not even so much about control because there, they're easy ways to have it. They already have control, they have plenty of control. They don't need any more control.

Joe: So it's about killing people?

Jason: Ehh, Well not just that. It's about torturing people, it's about hurting people, it's about, you know, pulling the wool over people's eyes, it's about, sort of like you know, tricking them over and over again, you know.

Joe: Mmm.

Jason: It's like, it's like...

Joe: And then snickering...

Jason: Toying with somebody before you kill them or something...

Joe: And have snickering in your back room.

Jason: Like there was this, there was a video of how they treated Gaddafi or whatever it is. Remember?

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: Right, that video.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And how they like tortured him, and I think there was even a claim that they raped him or something like that.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And then, were like shooting him and then; and then they killed him, right, and that's what's fun for them. The most fun for them is not the kill; it's all the stuff leading up to it.

Joe: Well they have that written down actually, in the CIA book of how to overthrow a government or a dictator or a leader or whatever. They're explicit about humiliating him...

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Publicly...

Jason: Yeah. It's very...

Joe: In an effort to demoralize any supporters.

Jason: It's about demoralization too, you know. It basically makes you afraid, you know. I mean, that was the whole release of the Abu Ghraib thing and all the waterboarding stuff. It was basically "look what we do, if you go against us" type of thing, you know.

Joe: This could be you.

Jason: This could be you type of stuff. That's because it's meanness! It's really; it's meanness. You know, I mean it's just not kosher in my opinion from a Statesman kind of point of view to do that kind thing...

Joe: It may well be kosher.

Jason: (Laughter) It's not; it's not okay. You know, that kind of behaviour is really not okay.

Joe: It depends what you mean by kosher.

Jason: Yeah it depends what you mean (laughing).

Joe: Uh, anyways, moving on; that was just a little dig at the Israeli's because obviously in Israel, that kind of thing is kosher because they torture and humiliate Palestinians all the time, so it's technically kosher.

Jason: I mean, I think people should find that kind of behaviour fundamentally unacceptable, you know. In any human being it's just absolutely unacceptable.

Joe: Yeah and when you join the CIA you get brought into that world and you get brought along, and before you know it you're doing it.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: And...

Jason: And you're a bad person for doing it.

Joe: Yeah, like you said before.

Jason: You're a bad person for doing it.

Joe: Everybody's...

Jason: For participating in it. Even if you're just the guy who man's the door of the torture chamber, you know. You're just as responsible for what goes on in there because you opened the door.

Joe: The sad thing is, is that there's so many human beings on this planet who otherwise would lead fairly normal, mundane, inoffensive lives, who, at a moment's notice would find themselves; could find themselves in that position of being a bad person doing something like that.

Jason: Yeah, totally.

Joe: That's a major problem.

Jason: It is a major problem.

Joe: On this planet.

Jason: The thing is, I look at like, human beings as kind of like a spectrum. There's this left side of the spectrum that's all white colored, and those are like good people who like, no matter what situation you put them in they are never going to intentionally or even indirectly cause somebody hurt, you know. If you say open the door to the torture chamber, they're like 'No! I'm not going to.' They're very few. And on the right side is like this dark, dark black side, and those people are very, very evil.

Joe: Mhm.

Jason: And in the center is like gradations from left to right, from black to kind of like grey, and then from grey to right in the center of people who, in most situations wouldn't do something bad, but if really put under pressure and fear they would. And you know, getting better, getting worse. So it's kind of like this spectrum of very good people, medium to okay people, and then okay to really satanic, evil, hey let's sacrifice some babies, you know.

Joe: Yeah. So listeners, where are you in that spectrum? Call in and let us know. You know, it actually reminds me of what we talked about in a previous show about the Milgram experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment and that; they came out, more or less 50/50...

Jason: Yup.

Joe: In the Milgram experiment where people were meant to administer electric shocks to somebody they didn't know or getting an answer wrong, 50% of the people, more or less went all the way to the potentially lethal shock.

Jason: Right.

Joe: And the other half balked at it and wouldn't do it.

Jason: Some of them wouldn't do it. Some of them had problems with it, and some had real problems with it but still did it, and some of them had some problems with it...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: After a point, and then some of them didn't have any problems at all! So it's a spectrum on all sides but a small quarter of the people; I mean there's very few Hitler's and there's very few Gandhi's, basically; the way that I look at the situation. And everyone in the middle is kind of malleable, and under the right circumstances, everybody has their price, you know what I mean?

Joe: Mhm.

Jason: You know, if somebody holds a gun to your child and says 'If you don't do X, I'll shoot your child', you'll probably do it, even if that thing is kind of horrible, you know. So everyone has their price. Some people don't. Like Gandhi didn't have a price.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: But very, very few people don't have a price.

Joe: And that's what we were talking about in the War on Terror; its Western governments going around promoting people like that who don't have a problem with this kind of torture and abuse of other people. Don't have a problem with; they're putting those kinds of people in power and leaving them there for a while and then...

Jason: (inaudible)

Joe: And then pointing at them as terrorists and going to invade the country because that was the point all along.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: But it's kind of interesting because one thing I was reading there about Afghanistan and Russian's invading Afghanistan, and that whole situation in the late 70's and early 80's whereas, as someone on our chat just mentioned, that Brzezinski said; give his blessing to the Right-wing fundi Islamist nut job's that the US were promoting. Zbigniew Brzezinski said that; told them that 'Your cause is right. God is on your side.' And what was around 1980. And 20 years later, Brzezinski, still in power, is cheerleading an invasion to root out these same people who are now terrorists. God was on their side; God and Right was on their side 20 years ago, now they're terrorists and we have to invade them to rid them...

Jason: You should expect nothing less from the government. You should expect nothing less from the government and politicians, I mean because they're liars. Everybody knows, right? That's the thing that in a certain sense kind of gall's me. Everybody knows that politicians are liars.

Joe: Uh huh.

Jason: But they only believe them; you only believe a politician when you're afraid and it's' it's convenient. But most of the time everyone just admits 'Yeah, they're lying to me' and yeah, yeah, yeah. But nobody does anything about it, you know?

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: Nobody knows what to do about it.

Joe: Yes the whole; the whole communist threat at the time was a red herring. I mean, talking about Brzezinski. It was Brzezinski and surprise, surprise, Rumsfeld, Cheney was there and Wolfowitz and a few others...

Jason: People who have been in power in America for the last (40 years?)

Joe: Those people at that time, they were called; they called them the Team B. Team A was the CIA at the time and the CIA were converting intelligence from the Soviets to the extent of the Soviet threat.

Jason: Right.

Joe: And they were basically saying that it wasn't such a real threat at all to American interest. Team B, made up of these usual suspects had a problem with this and told the CIA that they were totally misinterpreting this intelligence and that it was far worse than they were suggesting. And so they were basically politicizing the intelligence, or using the intelligence for political gain and twisting it. And they did that at the time and it led to a whole, the whole arms race during the 80's, and a massive build-up in spending for the military and expansion of CIA operations and covert US Military operations around the world, because they spun this Soviet threat that wasn't really so bad at all.
And they did exactly the same thing; exactly the same people. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz; they did exactly the same thing 20 years later leading up to the Iraq War. Most people...

Jason: Well, that's a big surprise.

Joe: As most people know they did exactly the same thing...

Jason: It's a big surprise.

Joe: In terms of that they went to the CIA and said; and spun all of the intelligence. I mean, they got really desperate because they started just pulling people, anybody, trying to make up a story about how evil Saddam was and how was connected to Al-Qaeda and how he had all these weapons around. Anybody that would do that for a few bucks and sign their name at the bottom of the document, they would pull them in and present them to the American public as; here's evidence.

Jason: But this thing also presents a little bit of a problem right, because, you know, here's these guys that are at the top of the food chain in America and they couldn't be arsed to plant a single bomb, you know? I mean, really would it have been so hard to plant a bomb?

Joe: Who?

Jason: You know these people in charge who are; who are telling all these lies. You know; Wolf, Cheney and Wolfowitz. They couldn't plant; I mean the fact that they didn't find any weapons of mass destruction...

Joe: Oh you mean plant one as in, yeah, as in yeah...

Jason: Yeah, it's very telling that they didn't find any, the Big powers...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: In America just couldn't pay somebody to 'Hey, can you drop a couple of sarin gas things...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: You know they didn't even find residual stuff! I mean...

Joe: I thought about that and I figured it must have had something to do with traceability or not wanting to leave themselves exposed, they'd weighed it up and said 'listen, the chances of us being exposed in this are pretty high, how do we get one that's authentic'...

Jason: That's some strong evidence that there's no grand conspiracy.

Joe: Yeah...

Niall: Well.

Jason: Strong evidence that there's no unified conspiracy in the world, that it is basically a bunch of self-interest psychopathic leaders who are just basically in positions of power and trying to do anything and everything they want and, you know, the American people let them get away with it. But they could be stopped any day, at any time, by the people simply waking up and just not believing the lies anymore and just saying so. I mean, that's really all you have to do.

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: There's no grand conspiracy, but people conspire.

Jason: Sure.

Niall: There's a famous...

Jason: You and I conspire all the time. We conspire about what we're going to have for dinner. I mean, everybody conspires...

Niall: Right, but I'm, I'm...

Jason: This whole thing of like lifting up conspiracies to be something, like 'Ohhh', it's like when friends share the same interests. Like, "Oh, let's watch some Ed Wood movies' and they talk about, let's next week have an Ed Wood movie-a-thon; that's a conspiracy to have that. If it turns out that you like molesting children and bombing small countries, which is what most of these pathocrats do, then yeah, they get together and they have conspiracies. 'Hey, let's go to Bangkok and you know, molest some children. Hey, let's go bomb this country. Hey, let's go kill this other person.' That's what they do!

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: I mean there's no difference. The difference is in the level of evil of what they do.

Joe: And for people who want to go further and think that there is a grand conspiracy or have some feeling that there is, then as we have said before now, the real conspiracy is psychopaths; how they got here, and if somebody put them here, if it was Mother Nature or aliens, or whatever; however psychopath's, the psychopathic type became a; basically became part of the human race, or not. That's the grand conspiracy because they are the ones who are the kind of foot soldiers, if there is some overlord...

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Then they are the foot soldiers of the overlord doing his work, but they just do it as a matter of their nature.

Jason: Right.

Joe: So you're not going to find any grand conspiracy at looking at what they do, as Jason just said. They just do it because that's who they are. They like bombing small countries, and you know, abusing children. So...

Niall: We talked about before, about psychopath's being very uncreative, to say the least, where they seem to be programmed, and you can almost anticipate their reactions...

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: Because they'll always do the same things.

Jason: You put 'em in charge of the government, you put them in charge of the economy, what will they do?

Niall: Yeah, and the same things play out time and time again.

Jason: Exactly.

Niall: In the history, right?

Jason: Every single.

Niall: And...

Joe: That's because they all get together and self-reference, you know? For them, external reality doesn't really exist. You put a couple psychopaths together and if they all agree on something then they'll use each other. And even their own thoughts; if they think it then it's true; it's subjectively true. And that's why we're seeing such crass attempts at deceiving people, because they're not very creative or imaginative as you said, because of that. Because they don't seem able to think in abstract ways and, to really carry off a very good conspiracy or deception, you need to really put yourself, or be able to put yourself in the minds of other people who you are trying to deceive...

Jason: Right.

Joe: You know what I mean? And they don't tend to be able to do that, you know? Because they are so self-centered.

Jason: And there's just no sense why they're successful, because they are so incapable of imagining the nature and reality of another person's mind. Their lives are so disproportionate to anything that a reasonable person would say 'I need to tell' in order to get this person to believe it. Then they succeed just on that basic fact that. It's kind of like the Hitler saying "the bigger the lie, the easier it is to believe."

Niall: Right.

Jason: And he observed this thing. But for them, they tell these huge lies because they're just so incapable of imagining any other reality than the one that exists in their head, you know.

Joe: Yeah, and; a listener Muxel, on the chat just said "paraphrasing Laura, she said there need not be a conspiracy if interests converge."

Jason: Yeah, I mean; just unified self-interest and meanness, you know.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: Just turns it that it takes a consistent series of forms.

Joe: Yeah. And another, Pashalis said "I'm wondering if the Powers that Be are amusing themselves about us stupid people when they give peace prizes to guys like Obama and the French President Hollande, or the EU itself, which it has done. Maybe they get a thrill out of such things."

Jason: It's duping delight. It's something that's been observed in all kind of psychopathic individuals, that they actually have pleasurable sensations when they pull one over on you. I mean that really, that really gets them off.

Joe: It's creepy.

Jason: They delight in duping people.

Joe: And I would say there's some people to some extent delight in being duped.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Depending on how they're being duped.

Jason: Well, what I would say is, is that like all this stuff like that article, I don't think it was written by a psychopath, I think it was, it's an 'and thenner', you know, like I was saying, the 'and then'. And those people are like sycophantic, authoritarians, right? It's like they worship the concept of a psychopath because it would be; to them it's like the ideal state because they are so devoid of conscience and devoid of any sort of compunction, they actually desire that state because they think 'Wow, it would be really great. Oh, yeah, what if I didn't; what if I didn't have these pangs and responsibilities? What if I could just do whatever I wanted?'
They kind of worship that psychopathic thing and so they try to emulate it, which is why it comes off so completely and totally...

Joe: Mhm.

Jason: Farcical and puerile.

Joe: Yeah. So, for our listeners, if anybody wants to call in with a comment or a question, feel free, on this topic or any other topic that springs to mind because this topic obviously, kind of made off in different directions. Yeah, so I just wanted to say that for anybody wondering about the War on Terror, it really; the war on Muslim terrorism; and while there is a Muslim terror threat or not, there really isn't. The only threat there has ever been, has been the threat of people power and ordinary people demanding kind of social justice either for themselves or from a government and trying to enforce that, basically.
And that's the threat that is perceived by the Powers that Be, as people power and people basically taking control of their own lives and their own countries; the places that they live in. The whole point of the War on Terror and the Cold War previously, was to use those two threats as a justification to go around the world and make sure that anywhere that there were people who were galvanizing and, you know, forming themselves groups or party's that were going to put this into place, put social justice into place in their countries. Anywhere that that was taking place, and the US or Western governments had interests, strategic interests there, then they went there and they called those people terrorists or communists and they destroyed them.
And they overthrew a Socialist government, like they've done in so many countries and installed dictators. And in terms of the War on Terror, when they; in the late 70's when there was a Prime Minister of Pakistan - not long after Pakistan had been created actually - and he was basically this kind of guy that was going to have social justice and, you know, empower the people and have a decent country; fairly secular, he wasn't right wing Islamic or anything like that. His name was Ali Bhutto. And the CIA went in and basically they helped overthrow him. Staged a coup and also put a General in power; General Zia who was a right-wing nut job; Islamist nut job.
And gave billions of dollars to him and his government in Pakistan afterwards, and he set up a bunch of these madras' in the tribal area of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Jason: Like curry madras?

Joe: No, not curry madras but I'm sure they served it there, but...

Jason: (Laughter) Oh, I love that stuff.

Joe: But these were Madras'; basically schools, Islamic schools, and all of these schools were used to churn out as many; you know, to basically radicalize fundamentalists; fundamentalist Islamist kind of way, radicalize as many people as they could, and churn them out, and make the evidence for there being a fundi Islamist threat. And they also control and used them through proxy groups and stuff; Western governments and CIA, MI6 and other intelligence agencies used them and pushed them around different places. You know they could make them; they could manipulate them to stage some kind of an attack in any country, in any area they wanted, to achieve their aims, and ultimately to blame terrorists and attack and invade that country that they saw fit. And that is the basics of the War on Terror and what it was and the Cold War previously.

Jason: Well it's keeping people in a state of fear and keeping them away from each other. I mean, this whole baby bomber thing, this is all like; they did this kind of stuff in the Vietnam War too, you know? They had this whole 'Why are you bombing that village?' It's like 'Oh you know they throw their babies at us and the women are armed and their willing to blow themselves' that kind of stuff, you know. It's the same sort of thing. But it's also making people afraid of going near anyone they don't know. I mean, if after reading that article, if someone had been walking down the street and saw a baby lying, you know, next to a trashcan somewhere, they wouldn't have gone up to pick it up, they would have left it there, and would have ran away and called the police.
And that's what it does to people. It subverts their humanity in a certain sense to make them afraid of other people and they won't connect to them. And the real truth of the matter is, is that the power of the people is not even necessarily in civil disobedience, it's not in revolutions, it's not in free speech and all this stuff; the power of the people is the ability to put aside differences between somebody else, and just forgive them for being different from you, forgive them for having different ideas than you, and just joining together for a common cause; being social; exercising the socialness of humanity.
And everything about American society and Western society is all about honeycombing society so that none of them can become a large enough mass that they wouldn't be controllable, because there is enough people; good, normal, regular human people that they couldn't shoot you all, couldn't arrest you all, and even trying would just be pointless; and they know that. So what they have to do, they have to secularize, they have to make people into little, tiny groups and move them across. That's why when they move into countries they set the most unpopular group of people, the meanest group of people in charge so that everyone hates them, and now everyone is fighting and they just create this kind of infighting and division; it's divide and conquer.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: You know.

Joe: Absolutely. And talking about the CIA and you mentioned Vietnam, just getting back to how CIA people really are. What do you call them, evil?

Jason: Evil.

Joe: Just pure evil?

Jason: CIA, NSA, they're all evil.
Joe: There's one example of the kind of thing that was going on. This in 1958, there's a guy called Alan Lawrence Pope. He's a retired US Military and Para-Military Aviator and he joined the CIA flying their fake air transport companies.

Niall: Air America?

Joe: Well, Air America, at that time was called the Civil Air Transport.

Niall: Right.

Joe: And it was a front; CIA front organization and he was flying; it was all about fighting the Communists and stuff after the Korean War and building up to the Vietnam War and their; the American's influence, taken over from the French in Indo-China. Basically Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia. And this guy basically flew around in an airplane bombing parts of Indonesia, towns and cities in Indonesia, and boats, all supposedly Communist boats and stuff. But this was all; obviously the whole Communist thing was a cover for the US, you know, protecting its interests against...

Jason: But that's not a...

Joe: People that were (inaudible)...

Jason: Because that's understandable. That's just being mean.

Joe: Well yeah, that's what they claimed it as. So this guy flying around, he's a psycho because he bombed and killed bunches of people in his bombings run for the CIA, and he was caught eventually, his plane was shot down and he was captured by the Indonesian government at the time. But the American Ambassador intervened; because he was condemned to death; which he should have been. But he was released and sent back to America. He later said himself "I enjoyed killing Communists." And he said "They said Indonesia was a failure but we knocked the shit out of them. We killed thousands of Communists even though half of them probably didn't even know what Communism meant."
Which is true, probably the vast majority of people caught up in those, in that Cold War conflict, and those Cold War conflicts probably did not know what Communism meant. They were just basically people who were being manipulated. And a lot of them knew what they wanted, which was, as we talked about, Social justice and things like that; an end to any kind of, you know, corrupt rulers and stuff. But they were all called Communists by the Americans and therefore they were slated for execution by napalm or large bombs, you know.

Niall: Well, this is it. The historical narrative says; or at least, let's say the liberal historical narrative says that Vietnam was a failure. It says that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was a disaster and so on and so on. But are they really looking at the point of view of a psychopath...

Jason: No!

Niall: Doing this?

Joe: Who said it was the, it was the...

Jason: Disaster's and wars, which you have to understand that we haven't had a war in a very, very long time. Like I don't even know necessarily; World War 2 was kind of a war, but all the rest of them were not really wars. They were; who knows what they were. They were about something weird, because the point wasn't to go in and win, the point was to go in and like, occupy territory and waste money and lives and all this different stuff.
I mean, you know, Sun Tzu 2500 years ago said do not go occupy a country. Either destroy it or, you know, don't do anything with it, you know. Basically if you're not going to go there and destroy it don't try and occupy it, it'll bankrupt your state. Basically, he said 2500 years ago, if you try and occupy a country, your State will be bankrupted. What's going on in America right now? They're occupying two countries; are they occupying more than two countries now?

Niall: It depends upon your definition...

Jason: It's kinda crazy...

Niall: Of occupation is, because...

Jason: Occupation is if you send soldiers to another country and they don't come home right away.

Niall: There; well just based on when Obama came to power...

Jason: Did they; did they kind of like (inaudible)

Niall: Less and less. They're relying less on...

Jason: Are there American troops, or, you know...

Joe: Yes, in Iraq.

Jason: Represents...

Joe: In Afghanistan; in several African countries.

Jason: Do they have a bed there?

Joe: Yeah, I mean...

Jason: That's where they're sleeping? They don't just go there and come back the next day.

Niall: No, there are US Military bases in every single country.

Joe: No, in a 121 countries.

Jason: Yeah, I mean that's...

Niall: Most countries.

Jason: Insane! Why do you need those base's...

Joe: Yeah, it's an empire, obviously.

Niall: Well that's something I wanted to ask you. It's an empire, right? It's an American Empire. It's...

Joe: Ostensibly yes. It's an American Empire.

Jason: It's a psychopathic Empire. You know, we currently live underneath a psychopathic empire.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: You can't call it an American Empire because when you say the word American, you kind of; you're supposed to; America is supposed to represent a couple of different ideals that are really kind of important. Basically; freedom, democracy, power of the people, and this kind of like; this whole send us your cold, your hungry, your (inaudible) type of thing, right. When; it's no longer...

Joe: And we'll eat them.

Jason: And we'll eat them, you know. But now, today, like you have people like; this thing; I really hate Piers Morgan, right. I really hate this guy.

Joe: Who doesn't?

Jason: I mean he is so offense, right. But there's this movement of people that want to get him deported, right. And that's the most un-American idea I could ever; a person who says that can't really be considered an American. I mean, this whole like, you know, let's strengthen the borders, that's anti-American ideal this whole send us your cold, your masses type of thing, you know.
America is about some ideals. Where the empire that we see today might call itself the American Empire, but it's not. It doesn't represent American ideals. It doesn't represent freedom, democracy, justice for (inaudible). Even going back to the (inaudible) farmer type of thing, the Jeffersonian, you know. Even though a lot of people might argue with that I still think that is one of the core, founding principles of America.
Joe: It's an empire that is currently managed out of a large chunk of land on the western side...

Jason: It used to...

Joe: Down the western side of the Atlantic.

Jason: It used to be America.

Joe: I mean yeah, you can call it an American Empire because basically the country is called America and that's where it's managed from, that's where the seat of power basically...

Jason: In name only.

Joe: Well yeah, as far as Jason's saying, it's not; depends what you mean by America, but; so it's a psychopathic Empire, basically.

Jason: Yeah. It's an empire of psychopaths. We're dealing with an empire of psychopaths. Until we stop talking about England, France and America and start talking about the psychopathic people who just are doing this shit, we're all going to have a problem really understanding this situation because we think that there is this separation, we think that there is this American Empire, and we think there's a French Empire and we think that there's an English Empire, but they're all ruled by psychopaths and so it's a psychopathic Empire. The fact that there is psychopathic faction's is just sort of like a complexity...

Niall: And the psychopaths use the term themselves. The Project for the New American Century; this clique we were talking about earlier; Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle; they wrote this document 'Rebuilding America's Defenses' in 1998...

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: In which they encouraged, let's say, incoming US Policy Makers to project American dominance over the entire world. They came up with this term Full Spectrum Dominance.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: They used the term empire.

Joe: Yeah, yeah.

Niall: So at the very least they do project, they do want Americans, kind of in a subconscious way to think of themselves as being at the head of an empire.

Joe: Maybe certain Americans and certain think tanks and things like that but, yeah.

Jason: I mean, as long as they maintain forward momentum it's gonna be okay; with the US. As long as the machines in motion, like it'll stay going a little while, you know, it's just like because it's so big it kinda can't help but move a very long distance to all the little people. But what's going to happen in America is the same thing that happened in the Soviet Union; is the minute they lose momentum, everything is going to fall apart from all the rotting internal corruption.
I mean, there was no revolution in Russia to get rid of Communism, it just basically fell apart. The same kind of thing will probably happen to China as well. You know, I mean they have all this expansion and they have all this growth and so that's keeping things going, but eventually, you know, they'll ascend. America will descend and fall apart because of all the rampant corruption that people put up with; all these corrupt psychopathic politicians. It's gonna fall down, it will collapse and you know, probably China will come and they will do the same thing because people, you know, they don't learn, you know?

Joe: Well talking about this Zbigniew Brzezinski guy again...

Jason: Who is this guy?

Joe: He was a National Security Advisor to Carter. He's basically a...

Niall: (inaudible)

Jason: He's like a Cardinal Richelieu.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: Yes!

Joe: Yeah, and he thinks of himself as a bit of an intellectual. He's written a few books.

Jason: He's a Russian Kissinger type of character?

Niall: Yeah, conspiracy theorists out there; he's a Bilderberger; he founded the Trilateral Commission.

Joe: He did find the Trilateral Commission, yeah. He wrote a book in 1998 called the Grand Chessboard.

Jason: Right.

Joe: And just on what you were just saying there about how ultimately America can't sustain itself as an Empire in that way, he, in his book the Grand Chessboard, he said on page 35 that "Never before has a populist democracy obtained international supremacy." That's America; a populist democracy obtaining international supremacy. And he says "But the pursuit of power is not a goal that demands popular support", i.e. the American government can't run around saying we're just power and expect people to support them. But he say's "Except in conditions of a sudden threat or challenge to the public sense of domestic wellbeing." Like 9/11 for example.

Jason: Oohh.

Joe: He says "The economic self-denial" - that is defense spending -, "and the human sacrifice involved" - which is casualties - ", even among professional soldiers, required in the effort are uncongenial to democratic instincts." Basically he's saying you can't have an empire if you want to have a fully-fledged democracy as well. He says democracy is inimical to imperial mobilization.

Jason: Totally.

Joe: Which is true, but he doesn't seem to give a shit about it.

Jason: Well the thing is, the answer to this problem is for democratic people to kind of compromise a little bit on this, you know? I mean; to stop being such peacenik about everything. Stop being so guileless, basically. The problem is that good people have no guile whatsoever. They shun it completely. They have no cunning and no artifice and they don't expect cunning and artifice from politicians and bad people in power and that's why they keep; and they die by droves.
They're starving to death, they're dying by sicknesses. I mean, most Americans now have three chronic illnesses that they're taking medication for. It's absolutely insane, you know.

Joe: Mhm

Jason: The state of health in America is horrible, the state of jobs is horrible, the state of the economy. Everything is horrible. And it's going to continue to be horrible until, you know, good people who just want things to be nice can develop a little bit of cunning and artifice and not be so completely and totally believing everything.
They just believe everything they are fed. They're not really bad people, they just accept the lies and they don't expect someone's going to lie to them. And just start expecting it. Just change a little bit.

Joe: Mhm. We've got a call here so we are going to go ahead and take it. Hi, caller what's your...

Caller: Hello! Can you hear me?

Joe: Hello, yup.

Caller: Hello?

Joe: Hi, what's your name?

Caller: Betsy.

Joe: Hi Betsy!

Jason: Hey Betsy.

Betsy: How ya doin?

Joe: Pretty good.

Niall: Welcome back.

Joe: How you doing?

Betsy: I'm doing well; enjoying the radio program.

Joe: Alright, whatcha gonna....

Betsy: I just noticed something! When y'all were talkin' earlier about how far back this goes, you mentioned maybe, you know, a hundred years or whatever. To me, this whole nation is founded on these same terroristic principles. I mean, first it was the Indians then we moved on to the Japanese, or Blacks or Japanese; whatever. America has always been controlled by fear since day one. Consumerism requires constant expansion; an empire requires constant expansion or it collapses. So this is nothing new.

Joe: But there's only so much of the Earth to conquer.

Betsy: Oh yeah; well yeah, I'm sure then we'll find other planets to ruin.

Joe: (Laughter) other planets?

Jason: Yeah I mean, pretty much the next thing you'll know they'll be fighting over the moon. I mean, I wouldn't put it past these people to fight over the moon.

Niall: They're talking about mining asteroids...

Jason: Oh that's...

Betsy: (Inaudible) Now, ours first then we'll destroy somebody else's planet.

Jason: Yeah. I mean, this is what happens when you, when you; I mean because psychopathic individuals there like degenerative cancer cells, you know. You got a cancer in there, if you don't cut it out it's going to take over the whole body. And, you know, I mean if, if they're trapped on the planet Earth, eventually it will eat itself out, but if they have an escape like 'oh let's go fight over the Moon' then it'll last a little bit longer but, generally Empires do have to maintain forward momentum.
They have to keep expanding and eventually it runs out when they can't do it anymore and everything collapses and then everyone's like 'Oh why is it so terrible, we're starving and cold' and then you're like 'Well, let me explain to you the basics of life here...' When you let psychopaths take over and run things, regardless of the fact that they're not specifically hurting you today, they will be hurting you in the future, even if they don't shoot you, eventually they're going to ruin your economy and government, and then you're going to be starving to death and cold and you're not going to be able to do anything about it. And you're going to be saying 'Why did this happen to me, again,' because it's been happening over and over again for the last 10,000 years.
You know, stuff like this happened in every single culture throughout history; the Assyrians, the Romans, the Egyptians; all these people. They let psychopathic priest people or politicians, whatever you want to call them; change the name, whatever it is. You let them take over, you let them rule, and you let them make decisions and you don't watch them every single minute, check everything they do, verify all facts of all the things that they say to you and then they run your economy and your culture and everything into the ground and then everybody's, you know...

Joe: Well you notice that in those...

Betsy: Exactly!

Joe: You notice in those previous empires, like the Roman Empire and other empires, they kind of collapsed, but only in on themselves and in a specific area...

Jason: Yeah, of course.

Joe: You know? But the problem today is that our world is so small and the ability for an empire to expand around the globe and take over the entire globe; tends to suggest that if there's a collapse, it's going to be global.

Jason: Mhm.

Betsy: But they have a tremendous advantage. They have a huge advantage over the rest of us and that is that they don't care who they kill. I mean, that's why they succeed, that's why they are allowed to take over; they have no compunction against killing an opponent; somebody that may be able to bring them down or expose them; kill 'em. We don't do that. We can't do that.

Jason: Yeah!

Betsy: People can't live with that. So, you know, that gives them a real advantage when it comes to taking over society in general. Kill the opposition. We can't do that. I mean, we vastly outnumber them, if we were killer's they'd be (inaudible).

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: But if we were killers we'd probably end up being like them, in a certain sense. I mean to a certain degree...

Betsy: Exactly! Exactly, that's the advantage they have, that's why they succeed.

Jason: But it's not; it's not necessarily an advantage, right? Because they succeed in quick battles, right? They will succeed in like small stuff, but over time they're going to die just as much as everybody else. They're going to starve just as much...

Betsy: Well it ain't happened in 10,000 years.

Jason: What? Oh yeah...

Betsy: They haven't died off in 10,000 years. I mean, as a species, the ability to kill really gives them an evolutionary advantage. They're on top because they're vicious.

Joe: Yeah, they just keep coming back.

Jason: Well it is kind of a Ragnar Red Beard 'Might is Right' right, type of philosophy. There is a level of truth to it. But it works because people allow it to work. People do. You allow it to work because you make choices for yourself and that's how they get you. Your self-interest ends up getting you. People; they want their TV, they want their house, they want their 2.5 kids, they want their SUV, they want their comfortable life and they're willing to pay for it, not just money, they're willing to pay in their freedoms, and as long as they're...

Betsy: Correct.

Jason: Willing to make a choice based on their self-interest of 'I want the comfortable life; I don't want to be concerned with this.' That's what they say to themselves; it's not my concern, right? It's going to end up being their concern. It's going to end up being; they're fooling themselves by sayings 'it's not my concern.' Right now they say it's not my concern and that's the doorway for psychopaths to get things by you. You know, it's like that old saying that all that's necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. And that is...

Betsy: Correct.

Joe/Niall: Yeah.

Jason: The truth. If every single good person did one thing, just one thing, post one message on one blog saying "Hey, this is some bullshit." It would be so; it would drown them out. If they all got into one area and just, you know, lit up some campfires. The smoke would cover all of America. I mean, seriously, but they don't do it. They don't do anything. As long as you don't do anything this is what's going to happen to you, you're society is going to eventually collapse. It's going to be like Rome, like Russia, it's going to be like any of these other types of empires that, they kind of disappear in a certain sense, you know? Things just, you know, start to fall apart and everything falls apart and then suddenly nobody's got food and millions of people die and there's no medical care, there's no; all this different stuff. That's where it's going to go because you let psychopaths rule and eventually...

Betsy: Yup!

Jason: I think it's going to take; I think it's going to take another 10,000 years to be honest; for people to learn this particular lesson. I think people are very slow learners. Another 10,000 years of allowing psychopaths to run governments, because they're so charismatic and so strong and they can do all those dirty things that you don't want to do. They can go kill people when they need to kill people, you know. You don't have to get your hands dirty, and then everything falls apart and you're all like 'Oh why, why, why God did you do this to me' and stuff like that and then eventually people will get it. I have faith eventually people will get it. I think it'll take them time.

Betsy: I don't know. Every time somebody pops up that is just as charismatic, that could, you know teach people, wake people up; you know, make a difference and get the populace going in the opposite direction, some guy kills them. Maybe It's just that easy.

Jason: But, what's really...

Betsy: Kennedy! Look at Kennedy.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: Yup. But look at Kennedy in a certain sense; that people are really very petty, right, you know? And the weakness of people is not so much that they kill the person who pops up; it's that they defame them, right? I mean, you've noticed this, this is; and this works so well with people because they're so internally puritanical and duplicitous about this type of stuff that people who actually do good things just get defamed with one thing or another, right?

Betsy: Oh! Go ahead...

Jason: Yet people agree with it, that say they are jealous and hateful, but actually it's not so much that they go around killing every good person. As a general rule they don't. What they do is just defame them. They send a group of defamers against them and that kind of ends up working. And, you know, people, they'll learn eventually.

Niall: And then there are those people who do lead by example.

Jason: Right.

Niall: Bradley Manning comes to mind in the US.

Jason: Naw, he's a...

Niall: And he was totally vilified.

Jason: He's a tool.

Niall: You reckon' he's a tool?

Jason: Arguably.

Niall: Oh sure, we're all tools in the big game though, right, J? I mean everyone plays their part, but who's pulling the strings?

Joe: What do you think of Bradley Manning, Betsy?

Betsy: Um, I think he was a young man with a conscience, and a man with a conscience in the Military is going to wind up gettin' hurt.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: Yup.

Betsy: I think he did exactly what they said he did or what he said he did, was pull off a bunch of, you know; what was not really classified stuff - Private had access to it - and disseminate it. So I; I admire him a great deal. I think he should have; I think what he did was absolutely commendable. The mistake he made was, you know, chatting and talking about what he had done to a Narc. Now if he had done what he, you know, released information and kept his mouth shut they'd still be wondering which Private did it.

Joe: Mhm. Yeah, but they're trying to make...

Betsy: You know, this guy got caught because he went off to a chat message board and talked with this guy Lamo who is a; you know, looking for a chance to Narc somebody up since the last time he did it...

Joe: Mhm.

Betsy: So, you know, he's in prison because he talked to a snitch. You know, if there's a lesson in this, if there's another Private out there that has good information that they want to get out to the people, do it, you know, keep your mouth shut. Don't go talking to people in chat groups. Don't say I released this information on Facebook. They don't have evidence against Bradley Manning because of anyone of the information that was published. They had no idea where it came from 'til he wrote it down.

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: It's a real shame because he was what, 20; 21 at the time.

Betsy: Yeah! He was a baby. He wanted somebody to talk to.

Niall: The hard way, there.

Joe: Yeah.

Betsy: Yeah.

Joe: Well, there...

Betsy: Just a young man, he had a guilty conscience, he thought he was talking to a friend and now he's probably going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Joe: Yeah, they're making an example of him, to try and make sure no one...

Betsy: And the example is, you know, when you do something like this, it will take a lot of low level people, you know, and just cogs in the machine who say 'This isn't right' and make it public. After you do it, keep your mouth shut. Don't tell anybody. Do you know how many people in this country are convicted of crimes because of their own mouths?

Joe: Yeah.

Betsy: Very seldom are they actually convicted from the evidence.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: I think, on the other hand it takes a case like this for people of conscience to realize just how careful you got to be, how strategic you have to be...

Jason: You have to have cunning and you have to have guile.

Niall: Look at what you're up against. You're up in psychopaths. This is not, you know, what you might have thought have been before.

Jason: No.

Niall: People learn the hard way. They have to live with it.

Betsy: Wikileaks has instructions on their website of how to do a completely anonymous drop. How, done to the fact that CD burners are numbered, get one from a thrift store, burn your DVD, put it in a mailbox that's not under some remote mailbox somewhere, you know, under video surveillance. I mean, if you follow those; he followed those instructions, no, even the people at; that received the information wouldn't possibly know where it came from.

Joe: Yeah.

Betsy: That's really the only way to do something anonymously is if the people that give the information to can't even know where it came from. Because anybody can be made to talk; the only way to do it is through complete anonymity, and he didn't do that. I feel so sorry for him but he didn't.

Joe: Hmph.

Jason: Yeah.

Joe: Alright Betsy thanks for your call; great talking to you.

Betsy: Thanks for your radio show.

Joe: Alright, alright, take it easy.

Jason: Have a good night.

Joe: So, right now we are going to go for a little commercial break and we'll be back in less than two minutes.
{Commercial Starts}
Since ancient times, great civilizations have risen and fallen. The biblical plagues and the collapse of the Old Kingdom of Egypt; the plague of Justinian and the collapse of the Roman Empire; the Black Death that devastated Europe. Could similar catastrophes our planet again? Laura Knight-Jadczyk's latest book, Comet's and the Horns of Moses provides compelling evidence that the course of human history has been defined by extraordinary and devastating cosmic events.
Drawing on her extensive study of history, religion, psychology and physics, Laura uncovers clues hidden in the great myth's, ancient astronomy, and the works of the Greek philosopher's to reveal the secret knowledge of the Ages; cyclical cosmic catastrophe; the periodic return of an extraterrestrial threat who's power moves mountains, reduces magnificent cities of old to rubble and left the most powerful emperors trembling in fear.
Comets and the Horns of Moses is a ground-breaking work that sheds light on our dark ages to reveal a timely warning to humanity. The clock is running down on our civilization. Comets and the Horns of Moses; available for purchase from all Amazon websites.
{End Commercial}
Joe: And we're back. That is; that was a little advertisement for Laura's new book, Comets and the Horns of Moses. We talked about, or we discussed that topic on a couple of occasions on past shows, and it definitely does shed light on the past; on some very dark chapters on past history. That's what we're trying to do here today, although we're trying to shed a little bit of light on chapters of more recent history.

Niall: Yeah a couple years ago, we'd been talking about revolution and what form it's taken in history or what form it's taking now; should people rise up. We talked about revolution of the mind. Then a couple of years ago we had the Arab Spring...

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: That broke out in Northern Africa; I think it was Tunisia first. Spread to Egypt where it really took hold and it's (inaudible)

Joe: Mhm.

Niall: It's kind of hard not to notice that there's a lot of manipulation going on as well. And something I've been wondering; is to what extent is it a revolution, in the sense of a genuine uprising; a reaction of people, and to what extent is it manipulated? Because we know that the CIA, amongst other bodies have; the so-called colour revolutions.

Joe: Yeah. Well there's; there not; the two are not mutually exclusive in the sense that you can't have a revolution or an uprising or people clamoring for social justice. That happens repeatedly and naturally in such countries where social justice doesn't exist. And we've already talked about that, in the sense that that's what the whole Communist threat, and now Terrorism threat is used; those two threats are used to; as a cover for going into countries where you have these kind of, this kind of clamoring for social justice and to present them as essentially, today, a terrorist...

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: A terrorist uprising, or that there are terrorists involved. And you notice that Libya; originally Libya, there was an Arab Spring; the Arab Spring had spread to Libya, but Libya was bombed or the Arab Spring had already begun by the time Libya...

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: Was bombed by NATO. And you notice that there's Muslim terrorist activity now, and has been for; since that bombing there has been terrorist attacks like the attack on the American Embassy and stuff, but it's all been spun into "the terrorists are there now"; basically the whole Arab Spring kind of thing, with the exception of Egypt maybe, it's been tainted by claims of terrorist or Al-Qaeda involvement.

Jason: The thing is...

Joe: So they're trying to subvert the genuine; any genuine popular uprising and turn it into a terrorist uprising that the Western forces then need to go in and deal with. So they subvert it in that way.

Jason: The thing is...

Niall: Yeah.

Jason: In the best case scenario, right, look at what the Government's doing. Like, let's say you believe everything that they say about what they're doing, right? So let's just work from that. If you do, then they are the most incompetent people on the face of the planet. Because didn't we go into Libya to fix all these problems and now we've got terrorism there? It's like everywhere America seems to go terrorism suddenly pops up! (laughter)

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: I mean, these guys are so; I mean, if we believe what they say, then they've got to be incompetent. If we don't believe what they say, well then they are liars and they're cheats and they're dishonest and they're murdering people. If we do, there just the serious; they're like the Gomer Pyle's of Generals going on over here 'well hi-yuck, hi-yuck, we went there with the best of intentions but stuff got messed up!' Like, come on dude, seriously? Even if you believe what they say you should get rid of them on the ground that they are incompetent.
It's like nobody should allow the US government to continue doing what it's doing the way it's doing it. The people who believe it should look at them and say 'Hey you're incompetent.' The people that don't believe it should say 'Hey, you're lying, cheating bastards and you're killing people.' But either way, they need to go.

Joe: Yeah, I think they actually want revolution.

Jason: They must!

Joe: You know, the Powers that Be want revolution, they want a global revolution or a revolution in successive countries. And that whole idea of revolution comes from Communism, you know, the whole original idea for revolution, Trotsky's kind of like, Communist revolution of the globe, you know, and to install an agrarian proletariat who was; that would control all the means of production and control of all the resources of the country and stuff.
Of course, I mean there are nice ideas and people naturally follow those ideals, but then you just end up with a corrupt elite controlling it and screwing people over. So, I mean; but then other country's fight against all those, that local population that are flocking to that ideal as the enemy and bomb the crap out of them, you know what I mean? So, I mean you have these global elite; there's no difference between the elite Communists of the day and the elite Western leaders of the day. They're both elites and they both kill their own people.

Jason: It's like what (inaudible) said, you know; poor people got more in common with the black people then they do with rich people type of thing, you know. I mean, poor people everywhere have something in common together. You have nothing in common with the elites of the population. With your rulers, you have nothing in common, you have no common ground. They have more money than you will ever see in your entirely life. They live a lifestyle that you can never live. They make decisions that you would never be able to make. You would never have the power to make and that no person should actually have the power to make and they only accidentally do because you've been sitting around playing angry birds all day and sitting on your facebook with Farmville. You've been too busy with other important shit.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: You know, you have nothing in common with the elites and you shouldn't feel; you know people sit there and say 'Oh, we kind of need them', it's like yeah well, maybe, but maybe not. I mean...

Joe: No you don't!

Jason: Have you thought about it? You don't really need them...

Joe: Everything that goes on in a country is produced; all of the workings of a country is produced by the ordinary people.

Jason: Right.

Joe: And it's made to work by the ordinary people. Think about it.

Jason: Right.

Joe: In your country, what keeps a country running? It's ordinary people working ordinary jobs. The elite up there try to pretend that there someway indispensable to that process because people wouldn't know, you know, wouldn't know how to like, you know...

Jason: The problem is...

Joe: Raise cows or keep a farm, or dig holes in the road or repair roads without elites who don't know how to do it themselves!?

Jason: (Laughter) You know, I mean, seriously it's ridiculous. The thing is societies exist based on something that really isn't kind of true. It's like a universally accepted lie; it's a social contract. It's a face in an organization; a grouping of people, right? You know, you agree that money has value. You agree that a position gives a person the power to make decisions. You agree that a judge has the right; you agree to all these things. These are contracts that the entire society implicitly or explicitly makes with each member; that you agree to.
You could just; really, people could if they really wanted to; if all the people or a large number of people got together they could just agree to say 'You know what, it turns out that we don't need a President. From now on, we'll have a magic eight ball stood on an altar (laughter) and every time we need a decision we will shake that eight ball and that will be what happens.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And you will probably actually end up getting a better society.

Niall: (Laughter)

Joe: Mhm.

Jason: You can agree; you can consent in society. You don't have to have a democracy; you don't have to have a totalitarian government; you don't have to have fascism; you don't have to have communism; you don't have to have any of these pre-fabricated structures, you can create one ad-hoc and as long as you can get people to agree that it's going to function, it will function.
Because the thing is, is the guy that picks up garbage and the guy who runs the machine that flattens out the road, you know, and the guy who turn flips the switch to turn on the electricity or to turn off the electricity or refuels the tanks or whatever, those people, they don't need a president or they don't need any kind of established elites to tell them; like Joe was saying; to tell them their job or how to do their job.
They do it because we've all agreed that this is how society should run and we don't realize that we can change our minds at any point and we could restructure society if we wanted to. But, you know, people won't. But they could if they wanted to. And they should recognize that you have more control over the way society runs than you think.
And it's not about voting. Because voting is just; voting is a system society agreed upon would be the way of doing this, and of course, now it's gotten polluted but you can change that, you know. You can change stuff by getting people to put aside their differences, by having this thing that I talked about, this revolution of the mind; changing the way you think about it, changing the way you think about yourself and other people, putting aside your differences and understanding that people actually have more of a unified cause then they think.
Like, here's a great example, alright. There's a group of transsexuals, right. And they're marching against the government because they want to change some sort of establishment. There's a group of gay people and they're marching against the government to get gay marriage. And then there's women who want rights for women and then there's blacks who want rights for blacks and then there's poor people who want more healthcare, and none of these people come together and support each other but they all have exactly the same abstract goal, that is they want to change the government, right?
That's what they want, each and every one of them. The fact that one of them wants to change it for gay marriage and another group wants to change it against gay marriage is kind of irrelevant in a certain sense. Like, a person who doesn't want gay marriage should help the people who do want gay marriage on the basis of the fact they should want it to be proved true that the government can be changed.

Niall: Okay.

Jason: You know, basically, that. Unless somebody has a completely; in that particular example; a completely diametrically opposed; unless somebody has a completely diametrically opposed opinion to you, you should help them out. If people in society were to get together and say 'You know what, I'm not really interested in your cause, but you know what, I'm going to show up at your demonstration just because I support the whole idea that your trying to change the government.' And I want the government to change, you know? Once the change ball starts rolling then, you know, this can happen. But until the government starts changing based on the voices of the people, nothing's going to happen.
And that's what you have today. You have all these different groups who are sort of marching for some kind of things, wewant to control the bankers, you know, we want to control the corporate spending here, we want to control the rights for marriage, we want to control these different things; these people just need to get together and say 'You know what, your cause isn't really my cause but I'm going to help you anyway.' You know, I mean; do you see what I'm saying?

Niall: Yeah. I think we've seen some; we have seen some of that in the West in the Occupy movement. Not just in the US, we saw that in Egypt. I mean, people were getting together enmasse...

Jason: Yeah.

Niall: And discussing it and talking about things.

Joe: But that's seen as a threat, immediately...

Niall: Immediately.

Joe: To the elite, and they don't like that kind of thing. It is a threat to them and they; at least that's one thing we're clear on; that they're very perceptive of a threat to their own positions...

Jason: Totally.

Niall: I've noticed.

Joe: And it always comes from people.

Jason: The problem is, is that the logical conclusion of every conversation that a whole group of people would have over a long period of time is that we don't need them. That's the ultimate conclusion. If a whole bunch of people got together and started talking about, started trying to solve problems, right, and eventually they would come to the problem of, why don't we just get rid of the elite and then we won't have this 50 other problems that we've all been arguing against because there actually caused by them.

Niall: And I think that they're innately aware of the threat; the Powers that Be; because they respond. We were talking about the Muslim terror threat, but the language has actually changed, especially since Obama came into power.

Joe/Jason: Mhm.

Niall: Terrorism is now a far wider concept, that's why there are now headlines like 'Foiled terror plot connected to Occupy Wall Street Movement' and threat of domestic terrorism.

Joe: Yeah, that should give people a real pointer...

Niall: Hello!

Joe: To what the whole terror threat, beginning with the commies then going to Muslim terror and what the whole point was, was to instill in people the acceptance or get people to accept the idea that the government has to take measures against threats from wherever so that then they can apply it to the threat, the only threat that really exists for them which is threat from the people. It has always been about the people and it was always going to be turned on the ordinary people of the country, of the US, of Europe or wherever.
These policies were always directed at you because there never was a Muslim terror threat, there were no Muslims to prosecute this War on Terror against; all designed to create an infrastructure of essentially a Police State and putting more and more power in the hands of the elite so they could use it against the people.

Jason: Well, what is terrorism? If you get right down to it, terrorism is when a person decides to use violence against established authority. That's what terrorism is.

Joe: Uh huh.

Jason: I mean, that's not what the word should mean, right? That's not what the word should mean. The word should mean somebody who uses terror to coerce, right? That's really not what they mean when they say a terrorist. They changed the kind of meaning as a person who basically takes up arms against the government but is not large enough in numbers to be considered a revolution or a civil war, right?
It's just; it's basically if you have 1 to 10 people decide to go and bomb some sort of government facility, they're a terrorist. Now if 10,000 people decide to do it, that's a revolution, you know. So then that's basically what it is. A terrorist is somebody who is against them, period. That's what terrorism is.
Terrorism is anyone against the government. And they are trying to change that definition in the people's minds, they are changing the wording, changing everything, corralling it around because basically what it is and what they're going to do is if you do not like the way things are then you will be, by definition - that they have created - a terrorist, period. You are going to be a terrorist if you don't agree.

Niall: Terrorism is flexible, depending on the context.

Jason: Yeah, sure.

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: Freedom fighters and rebels in Libya, but in Syria they're terrorists.

Joe: Mmm, yeah.

Jason: Exactly.

Niall: No, I got that right. They're freedom fighters there as well. The terrorists there, is the government.

Joe: It changes from day to day.

Niall: (Laughter)

Jason: It flips, you know. They call them whatever they want to call them based on if it serves the America government's needs, they're freedom fighters, if it doesn't serve what the American government wants or doesn't represent their policies then they're terrorists.

Joe: Yeah, whatever work's.

Jason: You know, whatever, whatever they want to, they call it anything they want.

Joe: They can call them Smurfs...

Jason: Yeah, why not.

Joe: If it served their purposes, they'd call them Smurfs.

Niall: The crazy thing is terrorism, as such, never existed. Nowadays, you have, you see it all the time, you get photographs of Syrian; they're rebels now, these aren't Al-Qaeda terrorist, you know rebels, posing with the Al-Qaeda flag - which I guess at some point was created since 9/11 - and identifying with the ideology, that never actually existed, but has been brought into existence. And it is drawing radicalized Muslims whose homes have been bombed countering the non-existent threat on terrorism.

Jason: You wonder if they're going to create...

Niall: And now it's real!

Jason: You wonder if they're going to create their own Frankenstein. If they actually are going to radicalize the Muslim world because the Muslims are finally going to get tired of being the whipping boy and scapegoat of the Americans, they're going to radicalize and say 'You know, maybe we don't believe in all this fundamental Muslim, Islam stuff, but you know what, we're still going to strap bombs to our chests type of thing!', you know. I mean, they can end up creating the terrorism that...

Joe: Well, yeah absolutely! But that suits their agenda because then they've created a fact on the ground, they've created the reality that they claimed existed beforehand by going around bombing and killing innocent people and claiming they're Muslim terrorists so that the people still left alive say 'Well yeah, I'm kind of annoyed So I'm going to be, I want to terrorize you back!' So now they've created Muslim terrorists...
Jason: The thing is, is that they go too far. They always go too far. You back somebody in a corner, treat 'em like a rat, trust me...

Joe: But it's a testimony to just how reluctant people are...

Jason: It is.

Joe: To fight back and to use any kind of violent tactics because people have been pushed so far...

Jason: They won't do anything.

Joe: Especially in Arab and Muslim countries have been pushed so far and so few of them have done anything in response, have taken any action in response, because I mean...

Jason: Here's the thing...

Joe: It's not natural for human beings but it's natural for psychopaths.

Jason: Here's the proof of that, right...

Joe: To attack people.

Jason: In Russia, what happened? People wanted bread and freedom, right. They put the bread first because they were really hungry. They did all this marching, they overthrew all this stuff, right. They put these dudes in charge and how many of them starved to death, 40 million, right? How long did Communism last? It didn't work, you know, it wasn't working. The people were still starving everywhere but they just laid down and took it. It's like the transmarginal inhibition, Pavlov's dogs you know.
They put the dog in the cage and they electrocute the left side of the cage so that the dog jumps up and goes to the right side of the cage. They electrocute the right side of the cage and the dog jumps 'Rrrrrr' and goes to the left side of the cage, and they keep doing this for a while and the dog keeps really getting, really getting irritated by this and then they decide, you know what, we'll electrocute the entire bottom of the cage, and then the dog freaks out...

Joe: The dog doesn't know what to do it just sits there.

Jason: It doesn't know what to do, right?

Joe: It goes passive.

Jason: But then it can't go back and forth so it just lies down and accepts the shock because, you know what, there's nothing it can do anymore, and that's how people are, they accept things the way they are because they don't believe they can change them and that's a lie.

Niall: You can.

Jason: Absolutely.

Joe: We've got a call, we're going to take this call.

Caller: Hello.

Joe: Hi, what's your name and where you calling from?

Caller: This is Lynn from Canada.
Joe: Lynn, from Canada, hi.

Niall: Hi, welcome.

Lynn: Hi. I just wanted to address something that was a little further back that Jason was talking about that, you know, if one person just does one thing. I think that we could probably get them right where they live just in terms of what we spend money on, you know, you take your money out of big banks, you don't shop with big corporations, you buy local, you don't buy processed crap, you just basically don't feed them.

Jason: And you have to...

Lynn: Put them out of business.

Jason: You've seen what they've tried to do; they've tried to corner that. They tried to make that not possible...

Lynn: Yeah.

Jason: What they've done is that they started creating these large, basically corporate entities like this fair trade label and stuff like that, right?

Lynn: Mhm.

Jason: And this is like a huge corporate thing, it's like all this, like I'm thinking when I was buying fair trade I was doing something good and then I saw the organization behind and I was like, hold on a second, this is like, this is practically like buying from Coca Cola, so, I mean...

Lynn: Yeah.

Jason: When it comes down to like buying locally, you're probably best off finding a farmer who actually grew it on his farm or something like that when you're buying locally. Don't be fooled by locally grown labels because as it turns out companies aren't really obligated to tell you the truth on their labels most of the time. They can say its bio and it's not really, they can say its non-GMO and it's not really, they can say that it's locally grown and it's not.
You know it's like, what was that, I think it was like Ford or something had the whole Made in America or one of the car companies did and like only one part was actually made in America (laughter), you know?

Lynn: Yeah, no, I understand that, and that is exactly what I mean, you know, you go to a local butcher and I say 'Where do you get your eggs from, where do you get your meat from' and he can tell me exactly who and they're like 20 miles out of town. The only barrier to that, I can see, is when people are asked to give up things that they can't get locally. You know, we're so spoiled with having cherries from Peru in December, it's ridiculous.
But that really, to me, is the one way you can do it and it's not going to get you labelled a terrorist and a rebel, it's just you very quietly conducting your life.

Joe: Yup, quiet revolution.

Jason: Absolutely. It's really, and it's probably one of the best decisions anybody could make, is basically what you're saying is to stop feeding the machine...

Lynn: Mhm.

Jason: Just don't feed it, you know. If you can't actually do something to help specifically, right...

Lynn: Right.

Jason: Don't do anything...

Joe: To make it worse.

Jason: To make it worse, right. Feeding the machine, every time you buy coca cola you are feeding into that sort of...

Joe: Corporate machine.

Jason: Every time you buy GMO foods you are accepting them, you know. You can't (inaudible). And that's the thing, that's the price that people have.

Lynn: No, absolutely and that's why I think one of the things that SOTT does, is that they've really given a lot of airtime - or page time - to things like the Paleo Diet which do, you know, practically, if you want to do it properly, you need to go this route. Because if you want to have really nutritious food, which has the lovely side effect of helping you think straight! Who know, you know??

Jason: Alright, we've got another, oh no, we don't, they dropped off. Anyway, so what I was going to say on the Paleo Diet is actually kind of awesome because probably the biggest staple of the diet, as we've discovered, is the kind of the black broth, you know, where we kind of make this whole...

Niall: Bone broth.

Jason: Yeah the bone broth, right. But there's a story from, it comes out of, who is it, Plutarch when he's talking about Lycurgus the founder of Sparta and how of the old people ate the black broth, right? And it was basically they left all the meat for the young people and they just ate the broth that the meats and the bones were cooked in, and it turned out that a very good way to get nutrients is to make bone broth and put a little bit of meat in it.

Lynn: And it's cheap!

Jason: And it's very affordable...

Lynn: Yeah.

Jason: So if your poor and you're saying 'Where am I gonna get nutritious food from?' it turns that the stuff that nobody wants to buy, which is a couple of chunks of fat and some bones is probably one of the best things you can eat. So yeah, the Paleo Diet is a really, is awesome, and it's more economical. You think that it wouldn't be but it turns out that it's way more economical.

Lynn: Absolutely. And again, it's a double whammy. You're helping yourself and you're helping the cause with, you know, very little effort, and for people who are worried about it, very little, you know, danger, if that's; I mean I know some people who are really paranoid, like, like, if I go to this site will I be tracked. It's like ugh, you already are. But anyway...

Jason: Yeah.

Lynn: You know, so it's a way of accomplishing these goals...

Jason: (Inaudible)

Lynn: Pardon?

Jason: I said people worry about the things that aren't really important. Because you can't really do anything about the website tracking and stuff like that, there's not really anything you're going to be able to do about that.

Lynn: Mhm, exactly.

Jason: But you can do something about buying coca cola or not choosing, you know, choose not to drive somewhere, choose not to watch the television, you know, choose not to buy this or buy that, you know? You should buy regular things, made by regular people, for regular people. instead of buying something with a stupid brand on it, you know.

Lynn: Exactly.

Jason: I mean, you make those choices and you know, don't buy into the consumerist culture you'd be surprised you have a lot more time to do other things that are important like, you know, maybe learn to...

Lynn: Like listening to this show (laughter)

Jason: You know, listen to this show, read that book that you've been promising yourself, you know, things like that.

Lynn: Pardon?

Jason: So, yeah. What?

Lynn: I missed that last thing.

Joe: He was just saying that, you know, people would have a lot more time to read that book that they've been waiting to read and stuff like that.

Lynn: Exactly.

Jason: Write that novel.

Lynn: (laughter) Make that post! Anyway, that's all I wanted to say, that it's not this great, onerous, I can't change the world sort of thing, there's things you can do every day.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: One thing. I mean, if every person did just one thing every day, one small thing, say no, when you're watching the news just say out loud I don't believe that. I mean, seriously you'd be surprised how much power that would have when a hundred million people are watching the news and all of them say at one time...

Niall: Horse hockey.

Jason: I don't believe that or horseshit.

Lynn: (Laughter)

Jason: It's like thunder. It's like thunder to the Gods, it's like a prayer that will let them know that they don't need to destroy you, you know, they don't need to send the arrow of Zeus or whatever it is.

Lynn: Yeah, anyway, great show guys. Carry on.

Niall/Joe: Thanks Lynn.

Lynn: You're welcome. Bye, bye.

Joe: Bye.

Niall: She's given me an idea for a show, you know.

Joe: What?

Niall: Carbs and addictions and feeding the machine.

Joe: Yeah, that would be a good show, we might...

Jason: Well the thing that always struck me about that whole situation is that there really is no such thing as an essential carb, right?

Niall: Right.

Jason: You don't need it, right. There are people actually in the world, like the Inuit's, you know, they live in really cold climates, they can't even grow vegetables...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: You will die if you do not eat fat, basically. That's basically a fact. If you, all vegetarians are always on a quest to find some sort of non-animal source of fat and most of them give up and they eat fish or something like that, because fish is really good fat, right?

Joe: Right.

Jason: A vegetarian that eats fish, in my opinion, has really sold out (laughter)

Joe: Yeah, and conversely they eat vegetable fat that have been hydrogenated. And that will kill you.

Jason: And will kill you eventually. But there always, so there's this kind of like this mental duplicity, this cognitive dissonance going on because basically you will die without fat but you will not die if you never eat a vegetable again for the rest of your life. But, like I don't eat vegetables, right, and when I tell people that they look at me like 'But you'll die' and I was like actually it's the exact opposite of that. You won't die at all. In fact, you would die, like man can't live on bread alone but it turns out that man can live on meat alone, you know.

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: I mean, the interesting kind of, the interesting truth about the primal diet...

Joe: People need to listen to kids. How many kids around the world when they're first introduced to vegetables turn their nose up...

Jason: Yuck!

Joe: And toss them off the plate, you know. That's an instinctive reaction to vegetables from a human being who hasn't been programmed with the idea that they're nutritious and delicious and healthy.

Jason: But they're not! They're anti-nutritious. It's one of those things, again, if you take the exact opposite of what is commonly accepted and told to you, especially by the government and the FDA, the exact opposite is the truth.

Joe: Yup.

Jason: And the exact opposite is that grains are actually anti-nutritious. They will suck nutrients out of your body and they will hurt your body. It's like crazy. But they say 'no, you have to have them.' Argh!

Joe: Yup.

Jason: It's always the inverse relation with these people. They'll always tell you the exact opposite of the truth and people believe it.

Joe: Yeah, that's probably another good idea for a show, you know, and we'll probably do that on carbs...

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: And meat, and what you should eat and why 'fat is where it's at', as our famous making bacon song by Relic says. So, but I think we've kind of, this show has run its course at this point. We're going to leave it there for this week.

Jason: I'm tired.

Joe: Jason's getting tired...

Jason: I want to go to sleep.

Joe: And wants to go to sleep...

Jason: I want to apologize in case I sounded incoherent. Like I was kind of getting incoherent, it's because I'm very tired. Normally I get up very early in the morning and staying up late is kind of harsh on me.

Joe: Yeah it's bad for you.

Jason: Yeah...

Niall: No worries, Jason.

Jason: I was getting incoherent there.

Joe: Alright, thanks folks, thanks for listening in, obviously to our listeners and also to our callers who called in, we appreciate it, and...

Jason: People should call in more. I'm going to, I'm going to...

Joe: People should call in, because people think that 'Oh I don't have anything to say or they already said that' but the point is that the way you, the listener, would say something, even if we have touched on it, would, you know, lead us off in another direction and it would be your particular viewpoint on it and they way you said so, you shouldn't use that as an excuse not to call in; you should always call in if you have a thought.

Jason: And you should show love! You gotta get (inaudible)

Joe: And you should show the love by calling in.

Jason: Yeah, show me love, you should call in...

Joe: Jason needs the love.

Jason: And tell me how much I love you.

Niall: (Laughter)

Joe: Yes, specifically...

Jason: Like 'Jason, we love you so much'...

Joe: Yeah, if everybody who calls in from now on perhaps call in and say Jason I love you and here is my question, that would be great if you could do that.

Jason: Yeah if you could just do that...

Joe: That would make...

Jason: Call in a couple times...

Joe: Yeah.

Jason: And tell me how great I am.

Joe: Yeah, yeah.

Niall: (Laughter)

Joe: Feel free. There's no limit to the number of times you can tell Jason that you love him.

Jason: Exactly.

Joe: Yeah, anyways, as I said that's the end of this week's show and we will be back next week in some form or another and we'll have another topic to talk about. We don't know what it is yet...

Jason: No we won't, actually...

Joe: Yes, well, what do you mean?

Jason: We'll make a little sort of artsy-fartsy kind of a (inaudible) basically we're going to have a radio show with no talking.

Joe: With some like...

Niall: Ah, very nouveau.

Jason: Yes, nouveau radio.

Joe: Yes, with like...

Jason: You're supposed to imagine what we would have said.


Joe: Can we have some interpretive jazz in there?

Jason: We'll have some jazz playing all the time.

Joe: Discordant jazz.

Niall: We could do some miming.

Jason: The most important thing is what we didn't say.


Joe: Yeah, that's just fodder for conspiracy theories right there, so alright folks, as I said we'll see you all when? Next week? Yeah.

Niall: Next Sunday.

Jason: In the fullness of time.

Joe: Yes, in the fullness of time. That's a good way to end the show so we will leave it there. Thanks to all, bye.