MindMatters: Women Who Love Psychopaths - A Retrospective and Introspective with Sandra Brown

Harrison Koehli, Elan Martin, Adam Daniels
Sott.net
Mon, 22 May 2023 00:00 UTC

Psychotherapist, educator, researcher, and author of the books Women Who Love Psychopaths, How to Spot a Dangerous Man, and many others, Sandra L. Brown's insights have helped many face - and heal from - the damage inflicted by psychopaths and the personality disordered. Expanding on her work as a therapist and author, Sandra Brown has developed the training for thousands of therapists who now understand, and are better able to treat, cognitive dissonance, PTSD, and the neurocognitive damage to executive brain function that many victims suffer.

Join us this week on MindMatters as we look back at Sandra Brown's influential writings, what she's been working on since the release of her books, and how her views and perspectives since then might affect what she'd focus on if she were writing these books today - more than 18 years later.

Running Time: 01:04:40

Download: MP3 — 88.8 MB

Harrison Koehli

Harrison Koehli co-hosts SOTT Radio Network's MindMatters, and is an editor for Red Pill Press. He has been interviewed on several North American radio shows about his writings on the study of ponerology. In addition to music and books, Harrison enjoys tobacco and bacon (often at the same time) and dislikes cell phones, vegetables, and fascists (commies too).

Elan Martin

Born and raised in New York City, Elan has been an editor for SOTT.net since 2014 and is a co-host for MindMatters. He enjoys seeing and sharing what's true about our profoundly and rapidly changing world.

Adam Daniels

Adam joined the editorial team in 2014 and is a co-host of MindMatters. His particular interests include philosophy, history, exercise science, and technology. He particularly dislikes Critical Race Theory and people who're so afraid of death that they prevent others from living. He also knows kung fu.

Reader Comments

Zbigniew · 2023-05-22T17:00:45Z

If I'm correct most women prefer psychopaths to normal men. The normal ones are „boring”! Psychopaths are „exciting”…

Baybars · 2023-05-22T17:09:35Z

Zbigniew LOL!! Your thoughts are shared by many people and I have seen it first hand many times.

Truthfully I like 'bad girls' [Link] but I know from experience that a long-term relationship with them is impossible.

Demore · 2023-05-22T17:52:49Z

Baybars Well I can say, honestly, a few bad girls have said the same about me; no long term relationship possible. Here is why...[Link] Bad girls love handsome bad boys and vice versa... In another article you wrote something about short stays in those places, so did I.

Baybars · 2023-05-22T20:04:26Z

Demore It has been decades since I listen to Mr. Kristofferson, thank you. He's 86!

adanie15 · 2023-05-23T01:07:02Z

Zbigniew Psychopaths target specific types of women, those high in trait agreeableness, precisely because most women do not prefer them. Psychopaths also wear a mask of sanity because women don't prefer truly anti-social men. Perhaps you meant to say "bad boys" and not "psychopaths".

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T01:12:31Z

adanie15 - I don't think Zbigniew expressed what you put forth. I think he just said the "ladies" in general are inclined to prefer "bad boys". Simple as that.

Oh, upon re-reading - maybe we are typing the same thing.

Of course the bad boys are more exciting, but the psychos I'm pretty sure even the most bad boy loving lady out there is not attracted to them if she has her wit about her.

But Hells-Bells who amongst us males knows the mind of a women?

Eventide · 2023-06-04T17:14:12Z

Zbigniew I think women can find psychopaths challenging. "I'm the one who's going to find my way into this person's inner emotional vulnerability," they think. It's a big ego trip that's pumped up and fueled by the psychopath's fake obsession and fake accessibility. It's not that the woman craves abuse, she craves power. It's the purest sort of illusion about who the psychopath is - a powerful being vs a damaged and malevolent one - joined with a fantasy about their own magical ability to use their feminine wiles to get access to that power so they'll have it as well. It's a fantasy that doesn't die because they've attached their self-image to it. It's a siren-song.

The answer seems to be in substitution. Once they start to realize that the psychopath is an actor, and also realize that they are obsessed with having power over relationships, they have to learn to develop a substitute skill set that allows them to create a healthy sort of experience of effectiveness within a productive social context rather than by continuing to pursue power in this way.

Baybars · 2023-05-22T17:11:07Z

An interesting interview. Thank you SOTT. One has to wonder if this is not a phenomenon as old as humanity.

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-22T20:12:03Z

At about the 16 minute mark, she discusses why women choose psychopaths or sociopaths. The first trait "agreeableness" that includes conscientiousness, empathy. And this is used by psychopaths for targeting. In other words, if you are compassionate you better watch out.

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-22T22:25:35Z

Dwoods44 She mentions there is an online link to take a personality inventory, can you include the link SOTT?

Though I assume this therapy she is training is successful, or she wouldn't be teaching it, what are the results?

Has Sandra had experience treating men who were agreeable and victims of psychopaths?

I would recommend she edit and republish the "dangerous man" book, because the title sells, but include your further research or if that is used just edit it. The point is to reach people, the more the better.

Unfortunately, people are blind to evil generally, and only encountering it does one learn about it. Deception, lack of empathy, slander and manipulation for me are the keys, and of course it is a bell curve so there are degrees.

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-23T14:34:19Z

Dwoods44 What about collective pyschopathic abuse? For example 9/11, the plandemic lockdowns and masks, the selection-election, the jan 6 "insurrection", the Southern border, the sexual identity, the racial identity tension of George Floyd, the war on the Ukraine.

Do these also cause the cognitive dissonance that Sandra speaks about. In other words, the more trauma narratives being recounted EVERY day, does that reduce the people's ability to think critically and make decisions because of the cognitive dissonance storm it creates?

Is there anyone that has done that research?

adanie15 · 2023-05-23T14:54:31Z

Dwoods44 What about collective pyschopathic abuse? For example 9/11, the plandemic lockdowns and masks, the selection-election, the jan 6 "insurrection", the Southern border, the sexual identity, the racial identity tension of George Floyd, the war on the Ukraine.

Do these also cause the cognitive dissonance that Sandra speaks about. In other words, the more trauma narratives being recounted EVERY day, does that reduce the people's ability to think critically and make decisions because of the cognitive dissonance storm it creates?

Is there anyone that has done that research?

The psychopathic abuses of Western governments does have a deleterious effect on their populations ability to think and act rationally due to an inducement of cognitive dissonance. Good on you for taking what Sandra described and realizing that it applies at the national level.

As for research on this, well, it's not exactly likely to get funded and pursued, though one can see the effects if one knows what to look for and pays attention to unfolding events. Psychopathic rule is crazy making for the population, and we have plenty of evidence suggesting that Western societies are in fact going slowly mad.

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-23T15:24:35Z

adanie15 Thanks Adam. Can you ask Sandra if she knows of any studies? Maybe she can ask the Purdue group?

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-23T15:37:02Z

adanie15 Adam, here is one connected research article.

[Link] Quote that maybe is talking about dealing with cognitive dissonance. "For victims of collective trauma meaning is established by: (a) passing down culturally-derived teachings and traditions about threat that promote group preservation; (b) these traditions of threat amplify existential concerns and increase the motivation to embed the trauma into a symbolic system of meaning; (c) trauma fosters the sense of a collective self that is transgenerational thereby promoting a sense of meaning and mitigating existential threat; (d) the sense of an historic collective self also increases group cohesion and group identification that function to create meaning and alleviate existential concerns; (e) the profound sense of meaning that is borne out of collective trauma perpetuates the memory of the trauma and the reluctance to close the door on the past; (f) Over time collective trauma becomes the epicenter of group identity, and the lens through which group members understand their social environment."

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-23T16:02:59Z

Dwoods44 A Ukrainian researcher. [Link] Examining psycholinquistics. Quote: "Moral injury, on the contrary of PTSD, is not defined as an anxiety disorder and relates to disintegrating meaning considering morality, notably moral standards, moral reasoning, moral behaviour, and moral emotions (Zasiekina & Zasiekin, 2020). Barnes, Hurley, & Taber(2019) argue that witnessing morally traumatic situation does not always lead to PTSD. The main predictor of developing PTSD in potentially morally injurious events is constructing meaning of the event, which expresses the dissonance between moral standards and real behavior resulting in moral emotions of shame and guilt (Griffinet al., 2019). In addition, McDonald (2017) expands moral emotions to disgust, anger, and embarrassment.

Ennio · 2023-05-24T20:48:16Z

Dwoods44 Good questions. Though there have been many articles which broach the subject, I don't think I've seen much that takes a rigorous approach to it. There is, however, Martha Stout's book The Paranoia Switch which was written to describe the effects of 911's and the war on terror's induced trauma in particular. Great book if you've never read it.

Limbic Warfare and Martha Stout's "Paranoia Switch"

Martha Stout's newest book, The Paranoia Switch, is a welcome addition to the new and growing science of ponerology: the study of the root causes and genesis of evil, on both the social and...

Baybars · 2023-05-24T20:53:19Z

Ennio Thank you for that historical SOTT link. A very interesting read.

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-25T12:17:25Z

Ennio Thank you for the link.

Steelj · 2023-05-26T04:09:27Z

Ennio Thanks, sounds like that book should be worth a look. Stout's "The Sociopath Next Door" is one I recommend as one of the best starter books to get conversant with psychopathy. I'm sure there are some new ones now I never heard of. Many newer Sottites are probably unaware that this site's founder, Laura Knight-Jadczyk is the publisher of Political Ponerology, via Red Pill Press. I wouldn't recommend it as a starter book, but once you have a good knowledge of psychopathy, it's a must-read.

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-26T14:32:57Z

Dwoods44 Hi Elan. In reviewing Martha Stout, one reviewer at the time said too much Pop and not enough psychology. However, she was a respected Harvard professor? I also would have liked to see more research connections to the effect of trauma on the amygdala and limbic system.

The problem with academic research and academics in general is many of them are in bed with the money. One recent example is Dr. Charles Lieber and his under the table relationship to the Wuhan lab. Note, he was arrested, but he was released after 2 days. He made his payment to society, right?

In other words, is Stout giving some truth and some half-truth? One note in briefly researching, other researchers used her premise to attack Trump as the trauma-fear monger, promoting American tribalism and disconnecting from international relationships.

Harrison has been studying ponerology for a long time, before 2007. Quote: " While a population is busy infighting over gun control, abortion, religion, etc., the deviants in office can escape notice. If the people were aware of the manipulations being used on them by their leaders, such manipulations would prove ineffective ."

VooDoo6 · 2023-05-22T23:30:12Z

Let’s also not forget men who are submissive to dominant women - bi-polar - personality disorders etc. as well. The well is poisoned on both gender sides for various reasons. Defining a ‘state or definition of normal’ is a challenging to say the least, if even possible.

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-22T23:33:41Z

I think the ladies are in general seeking out mates that have the highest probability of keeping their progeny alive into the future. The fellas whey or whether they be psychopaths or not in general are willing to accommodate the ladies in their desires. By the way, psychopaths are not gender specific - gender is not a determining factor is one's proclivity to be a psycho.

There is nothing tricky or new about any of this - what is the fuss?

Let the ladies choose who they want to mate with and let the fellas do what the ladies desire I reckon.

Either that or lets let it turn into a discussion about the mindset of a women - and if that is the discussion at hand - count me out.

It is a mystery....still, evidence is evidence and Hillary truly is criminal - just like billy bad ass is.

Some things are obvious.

Shangri · 2023-05-23T01:35:04Z

I knew an unhinged egomaniac, a "lady" who hunted her man, noosed him then slowy chipped away at his manhood, they had two children, one was always known to be greedy, jealous, narrow and selfish, the other judicious and kind....but .it was the first who grew to blame his mother for her lack of tenderness....as for the girl, of course, she was sad that her father was unwilling to recognise his condition, and for all her efforts, her mother, repeatedly denied her disorder, but as her view of life was expansive, it was of little inconvenience, much as spots of rain on a sunny day.

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T01:40:09Z

Shangri - that sounds truly sad.

I hope the daughter figures things out, but which "girl" were you referring to in the 2nd part of the paragraph - the first one or the second?

That is a fair question if you read it close so can you provide the answer Shangri ?

Or is it that there is a boy in the story?

Seems there is - so the boy blamed the mother?

Is that the story you got to tell - if you want my humble opinion - I think it really is boring.

Shangri · 2023-05-23T01:46:09Z

Buffalo_Ken sorry....the kind girl to woman was unaltered, it was the hard hearted boy to man who had/has issues..

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T01:49:15Z

Shangri I don't proclaim to know the mind of a women. I know that some women will always try to blame it on the man, but lately these sort of ladies are losing favor for good reason.

Reason being to keep it simple women needs man and vice-versa.

Shangri · 2023-05-23T02:03:33Z

Buffalo_Ken then cut back on the ladies - you a Mormon BK ?

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T02:06:00Z

Shangri - I'm just a regular ole fella with one wife permanent. What about u - what you attached to?

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T02:07:15Z

Shangri - as for Mormon's while I do think something special happened in NY, I don't ascribe to their concepts - they seem over the top Utah ridiculous.

Shangri · 2023-05-23T02:20:19Z

Buffalo_Ken also. as one.

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T02:36:11Z

Shangri - sounds like something a women would say. This is what I say to the women - ok fine baby - you win.

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T02:36:27Z

Shangri - have a hug baby!

Shangri · 2023-05-23T02:49:58Z

Buffalo_Ken sounds like.....

--

really....why is that ?

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T02:53:32Z

Shangri - if you don't want a hug metaphoric, then you won't get it I reckon - so if it sounds one way to you, it might sound another way to somebody else with different perspective on the matter. So that is why. Any more questions Shangri - if so just ask.

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T02:53:49Z

Shangri - still - have another hug.

That is a "double hug" mind ya - do you want another?

tis what is referred to as a 2-1-2-1-2....double hugged metaphorically.

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T03:12:29Z

So there are 200,000 psycho trainers out there?

Trained to spot a dangerous man?

Why is this so hard to spot?

I think the time for men and women to come together in earnest is upon us.

I'm but 8 minutes and 11 seconds into this, and judgement on this topic is not easy.

I appreciate the wisdom the lady is expressing, but seriously, I'm not sure this is worth listening to....but I suspect it is.

I'll listen later I reckon, but I think the whole field of psychology is wrought with bias - seriously - bias.

Still - with respect due, I'll listen the the rest, but to try to understand the mind of a women is not easy to do if one is a man.

parzival · 2023-05-23T06:30:36Z

Ready for the next psychopath drama?? Couple 60,000 lbs of Ammonium Nitrate & 50 Senators in Wash DC receiving encrypted cellular SAT phones, & May Clinic advertising for “volunteer amateur radio operators to assist with communications during emergencies when official internal and external communications are not available.” Something's up?? [Link]

parzival · 2023-05-23T08:21:59Z

parzival Also, Prediction Of the Internet Going Down...

taschen · 2023-05-23T13:36:23Z

parzival Hmmm [Link] your veterans will know if there's a rush for cover, or flights of oligarchs away from the coasts.

parzival · 2023-05-24T04:05:59Z

taschen Thanks for the providing the link. I have this to say about the purported jet fest by NATO... S-500.

taschen · 2023-05-24T08:53:33Z

parzival I worry about the sanity of those in charge, they act like spiteful 3 year olds.

Thank you also for the continuing education.

parzival · 2023-05-25T04:11:08Z

taschen Funny thing about 'those in charge,' sometimes I wonder if they are but a reflection of ourselves, the darker side of ourselves... And so we helped to manifest them, subconsciously...

Steelj · 2023-05-26T04:34:49Z

parzival

I wonder if they are but a reflection of ourselves, the darker side of ourselves.

Excellent observation. Citizens of a representative democracy have plenty to say about who their leaders are, at least until cheating overwhelms the system, which can only happen when poor leaders are chosen. Democrats really showed themselves by giving the only decent human being in the primary, Tulsi, single-digit support, falling in behind scum like Biden, Warren, and Sanders. Republicans are some better, but when you figure a total asshole like Trump is the best president in my lifetime, that's a pathetic reflection on the electorate. I don't include you, me, or quite a few other sane people in your collective "ourselves", of course.

parzival · 2023-05-26T05:46:44Z

Steelj Thanks! Of course... As for me, I took a page from George Carlin and chose not to vote because I don't vote for the least evil, or least stupid. [Link]

taschen · 2023-05-26T10:57:51Z

parzival Or possibly their intent is to bring out the dark side thus obviating any relative blame on their part, after all 'isn't everyone like this'.

parzival · 2023-05-27T23:33:38Z

taschen Hmmm, accentuate the negative...Of course, help create enough chaos and fear that the masses just react to everything. [Link]

parzival · 2023-05-23T07:26:22Z

My friends, those who "know" me here on SOTT, know that I work Mon.- Fri. with veterans here in the US. I just want to share with you a brief instance captured on vid of the pain & despair I encounter on a daily basis, the system breaking down, becoming incrementally worse as the days turn into weeks, the weeks into months, the months into years, and the years wearing down many of these individuals clinging onto life... Those of us who serve, do the best we can with what we have. The majority of vets I encounter are very grateful for the work we do for them. [Link]

nedlud · 2023-05-23T08:06:19Z

parzival HUMAN TOUCH

I once went on a date with a woman who worked with vets. This was, of course, many years ago. There was a time long ago, when I dated a lot of women. Most of them really wanted to talk, or try to, on an emotional level, and so this is what we usually did....it was very human.

This particular woman had tremendous difficulty falling asleep at night. I remember talking about that.

All of us have been deeply affected by psychopathic behavior. By war. By the enormity of lying constantly to one another, and not knowing what to do.

Very sad.

ned

parzival · 2023-05-23T08:23:11Z

nedlud Thanks ned, for sharing your personal recollections. I know what that lack of sleep is like. Best to you!

nedlud · 2023-05-23T10:53:51Z

parzival SWEET INNOCENCE

And thank you, parzival.

The 'last kiss' will not be the last.

It will be the first.

And it will last.

Forever.

ned

Baybars · 2023-05-23T16:13:09Z

parzival Wow. I don't really know what to say. You are a saint for putting your heart and mind towards assisting these men and women. Sadly the treatment of returning soldiers has remained dismal since WW1, even in Canada.

Keep up the great work!!!

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-23T20:05:53Z

parzival - the fella deserves some continuity does he not - that is all he was asking for and I could tell - he was one tough fella - torn apart by the land he served and the harm he now feels after the fact. Bought to tears he was but tears are good sometimes - they are an outlet for emotion and I sure hope that vet gets some tender loving care because he deserves it evidently.

Priorities are evidently out of whack and the consequences are only now starting to emerge, but they will emerge with forcefulness and then those who caused all the harm will realize that we are not cattle.

It could be they are though. If not, it could be justice is fixing to get delivered to them one at a time because they are known and harm always has consequence. Always.

parzival · 2023-05-24T04:08:56Z

Baybars 🙏 Thanks bro...

parzival · 2023-05-24T04:23:58Z

Buffalo_Ken Thanks for your reply Ken. Yeah, this guy and tens of thousands like him do deserve continuity of service. There aren't enough doctors and nurses at the VA, and the ones that are there are burned out due to the extraordinary case loads. The VA spent 2 billion on a non-user friendly electronic records software the doctors and nurses don't want to use because it takes to long to train on, and it takes more time away from actual face time with veterans. The US gets its meds from China, and well, there's all kinds of problems with that. The bureaucrats are more concerned about getting pronouns correct than they are with plan of care for these guys. ( Yes, they have made the pronoun thing be a big deal in the last few months... )

parzival · 2023-05-24T04:26:19Z

nedlud I think that's beautiful ned...

"The 'last kiss' will not be the last.

It will be the first.

And it will last.

Forever."

Thanks for that bit of lovely, timeless, poetic wisdom.

Dwoods44 · 2023-05-24T09:43:58Z

parzival Thank you my friend. The system is broken.

parzival · 2023-05-29T18:54:52Z

parzival Today is Memorial Day. I'm working today attempting to assist our veteran's as best I can and give what support I can lend. I think about people like Henry Kissinger today who said; "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."

Remember these sweet words of Henry Kissinger on this Memorial Day... for these are the sentiments of his treasonous tribe who now wield the might of every Western military. These are the sentiments of Zelensky who will throw every non-chosen Ukrainian male into his meat grinder. These are the sentiments of Lindsay Graham and other traitor puppet politicians who foment unnecessary wars around the world.

Veterans out there must begin to lead. The discipline and training they received during their service are a valuable commodity in the effort to reclaim our Republic. There are tens of millions of us ready to follow their example. God bless the world & God bless the peace makers & my friends @ SOTT! [Link]

parzival · 2023-05-30T14:05:46Z

Dwoods44 🙏 You're welcome, and sadly this is so...

taschen · 2023-05-23T13:30:43Z

I have a couple of friends who are well brought up pschopaths, unlike their counterparts they refrain from toying with regular humans. They are deeply insightful in a sort of predatory way, sometimes the thought passes through that their mentality is rather like that of women in that they feel impelled to 'manage' the circumstances around them and almost seem to be acting their part. They manage women rather easily too, but whilst I've known them neither were promiscuous at all despite no lack of opportunity.

IF I'm guessing right then some women may prefer the drama of contending with someone equally capable of manipulation whom they cannot manage, than being with a peacable man who avoids drama that they can.

Shangri · 2023-05-23T23:39:30Z

taschen a Father figure ?

my earlier comment - the man/father , had a very strict and controlling mother, it was she who wore the trousers. He married himself to more of the same.

hobnyeba · 2023-05-24T07:38:36Z

I know the lesson for men who love psychopaths: matter, the object, or really whatever is outside of himself, is something to love, but it's also something that could cause delusion/illusion/materialism.

I guess from having read her books some time ago, seeing some men for the losers they are was kind of my impression, and is a good lesson. I wouldn't know how to take that deeper.

Buffalo_Ken · 2023-05-25T15:16:53Z

hobnyeba - I'll take it deeper if you don't mind "honey" - here is a fair question:

Why would any man or any women or any women or any man love a psychopath be said psycho be a woman or a man?

Why I query - if you know they are a psycho - what is the appeal?

Maybe - they are trying to stretch the bounds of it.....but one must wonder, at some point, the bounds get stretched to0 to too 2 two far - tu-tu far , then that is the end for everybody - psychos, ladies who love them, and vice versa I reckon. Men who love lady crazies, crazy ladies loving sick men, innocent children, grown ups working hard for a living - everybody for eff sake.

hobnyeba · 2023-05-25T21:53:39Z

Buffalo_Ken You may call me hob for a nickname. I'm not offended, as it is rather a meaningless troll name anyway, but if you like my name means ferret, hobnob, sky, warrior, if it means anything.

Anyway you have the right answer. We must not serve that which is demonic. Love without knowledge is demonic, as Gurdjieff said. If I may expand, we must first love ourselves. Then, knowledge brings faith, and from faith can come love.

Buffalo_Ken ·

hobnyeba

· 2023-05-30T14:01:52Z

Menrva · 2023-05-29T18:51:56Z

Excellent interview guys! It was great to hear what Sandra has been up to. I can't wait for the actual studies that will (hopefully) come from Purdue. Kudos.

Mysterious homo naledi species may have been the first to bury their dead Not the Piltdown man ?!? :O

codis

White Supremacist, anti-semitism, hater, holocaust denier, anti-vaxxer etc. all labels created to isolate and attack a targeted group, it really...

Psstoffgoy

Seeing the "Go vegan" label in the image, I pass. Very low quality meat ...

codis

Well why couldn't Putin do that? After all, he blew up his own pipeline and dam..

Baybars

I don't think it's that bad. Since Cannabis has been legalized up here, nobody really notices the extra smoke in the air. "Rrrrolll up another...

Baybars

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