Running Time: 01:38:39
Download: MP3 — 135 MB
Running Time: 01:38:39
Download: MP3 — 135 MB
Harrison Koehli co-hosts SOTT Radio Network's MindMatters, and is an editor for Red Pill Press. He has been interviewed on several North American radio shows about his writings on the study of ponerology. In addition to music and books, Harrison enjoys tobacco and bacon (often at the same time) and dislikes cell phones, vegetables, and fascists (commies too).
Born and raised in New York City, Elan has been an editor for SOTT.net since 2014 and is a co-host for MindMatters. He enjoys seeing and sharing what's true about our profoundly and rapidly changing world.
Adam joined the editorial team in 2014 and is a co-host of MindMatters. His particular interests include philosophy, history, exercise science, and technology. He particularly dislikes Critical Race Theory and people who're so afraid of death that they prevent others from living. He also knows kung fu.
Reader Comments
turchin is only partially right----see Richard Sennet's 'Cooperation' more recently his book 'Together'
WAR IS PEACE
The great and holy Tao is only to be interpreted and transmitted by those possessing the most technology.
For it truly is as Jesus suggested.
The first (ie., the winners--with the most advanced clubs) shall always be first, and the last (ie., the losers--without such good clubs) shall always be the last...
I'll have you know that slavery is also freedom!
signed,
Tzu Lao
The great and holy Tao is only to be interpreted and transmitted by those possessing the most technology.
For it truly is as Jesus suggested.
The first (ie., the winners--with the most advanced clubs) shall always be first, and the last (ie., the losers--without such good clubs) shall always be the last...
I'll have you know that slavery is also freedom!
signed,
Tzu Lao
First thoughts
. It is always useful to give definition and context of the words we use, like war and cooperation. Our general idea of war is kinetic war, where technology and manpower determines the victor. However, if you read the recent 2020 NATO meeting about Cognitive Warfare [Link] you learn that war can be occurring without kinetic war. Indeed, we are in a Cognitive War now, and the difference is important to understand. What is cooperation? Is it the groupthink that powers the CRT and sexual identity powers? Is it the 2000 Mules working together to create a soft coup? Is it the mobilization of a nation to build tanks, fighter jets, boots for the WWII war effort? Is it the Bilderberg and WEF meetings? Is it the SOTT readers contributing their insight into the meaning of events? Is it the recognition that community and family work together to save humanity?
Turchin, in my view, gives a compartmentalized view that does not have a moral compass. Where are human values in the discussion? Where is culture? Where is psychopathy of the leaders? Where is the McGhilchrist left/right brain view in the discussion? Where are spiritual values in the discussion? What are the values of war; national security, secrecy, technology, transhumanism, super soldiers, behavioral modification, kill the enemy, destroying manufacturing, destroying communication, win, usually no diplomacy, demonization of the enemy as animals? War involves the destruction of a civilization or nation by another. The Spanish invading South America destroyed the existing culture, and created a "Christian" culture over the bodies and culture of another people.
. It is always useful to give definition and context of the words we use, like war and cooperation. Our general idea of war is kinetic war, where technology and manpower determines the victor. However, if you read the recent 2020 NATO meeting about Cognitive Warfare [Link] you learn that war can be occurring without kinetic war. Indeed, we are in a Cognitive War now, and the difference is important to understand. What is cooperation? Is it the groupthink that powers the CRT and sexual identity powers? Is it the 2000 Mules working together to create a soft coup? Is it the mobilization of a nation to build tanks, fighter jets, boots for the WWII war effort? Is it the Bilderberg and WEF meetings? Is it the SOTT readers contributing their insight into the meaning of events? Is it the recognition that community and family work together to save humanity?
Turchin, in my view, gives a compartmentalized view that does not have a moral compass. Where are human values in the discussion? Where is culture? Where is psychopathy of the leaders? Where is the McGhilchrist left/right brain view in the discussion? Where are spiritual values in the discussion? What are the values of war; national security, secrecy, technology, transhumanism, super soldiers, behavioral modification, kill the enemy, destroying manufacturing, destroying communication, win, usually no diplomacy, demonization of the enemy as animals? War involves the destruction of a civilization or nation by another. The Spanish invading South America destroyed the existing culture, and created a "Christian" culture over the bodies and culture of another people.
Dwoods44 A few points: Turchin acknowledges in his book that interstate competition is no longer resolved primarily by war. He focuses on economic warfare in those pages, but yes, cognitive warfare is up there. As for cooperation, yes to all the above. He is simply talking about ever larger groups being able to live without murdering each other. That will include coup plotters and massive societies with low murder rates, as well as arms industries.
On values, culture, psychopathy, left/right brain, etc., those are the plants that grow in the garden created by the dynamics he writes about. (The overall field for what he's describing is cultural evolution.) As for the values of war, that's kind of the point: those best at it survived, for a while, until those better defeated them or they fell apart on their own, and that's the way it has been for the past 10,000 years. Between total victory and total defeat there are all kinds of variations.
On values, culture, psychopathy, left/right brain, etc., those are the plants that grow in the garden created by the dynamics he writes about. (The overall field for what he's describing is cultural evolution.) As for the values of war, that's kind of the point: those best at it survived, for a while, until those better defeated them or they fell apart on their own, and that's the way it has been for the past 10,000 years. Between total victory and total defeat there are all kinds of variations.
hkoehli Thanks Harrison for the reply. You make the statement, "ever larger groups being able to live without murdering each other." I am not sure I see that this is true, especially as a result of war. It sure seems to me that the psychopaths have really been running the show and using war as their mechanism of control and profit. It also seems to me that the world needs a mutually agreed world view, like the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, that establishes inalienable human rights and freedom. d
CHAOS
@Dwoods44:
First, become a good egoist.
Both tiny individual and 'greater' society are ego constructs. Each reflecting the other. Pretty much the same thing. Ego.
A certain amount of stability is required, for proper evolution.
Too much chaos, throws one into a tailspin and much is lost and aberrant behavior is 'normalized'. This is hard, if not impossible, to overcome. The ego becomes its own end. Pretty fucking stupid.
On the other hand, too much 'stillness', provides no spur for growth, no actual reaching for higher reality. Again, pretty fucking stupid. The ego again becomes its own end.
First, achieve a qualified and reasonable ego. Be a help to others. Understand their needs.
Then go on from there.
Because that (ego) is not the finality, it is not the shining hour.
Or so the story goes.
God knows best!
ned,
out
@Dwoods44:
First, become a good egoist.
Both tiny individual and 'greater' society are ego constructs. Each reflecting the other. Pretty much the same thing. Ego.
A certain amount of stability is required, for proper evolution.
Too much chaos, throws one into a tailspin and much is lost and aberrant behavior is 'normalized'. This is hard, if not impossible, to overcome. The ego becomes its own end. Pretty fucking stupid.
On the other hand, too much 'stillness', provides no spur for growth, no actual reaching for higher reality. Again, pretty fucking stupid. The ego again becomes its own end.
First, achieve a qualified and reasonable ego. Be a help to others. Understand their needs.
Then go on from there.
Because that (ego) is not the finality, it is not the shining hour.
Or so the story goes.
God knows best!
ned,
out
nedlud Yes, conflict seems to be necessary to spur awakening to higher things. So many works of art and literature appear to be stimulated by the conflict of war.
Aeschylus: "He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain, which cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.”
Aeschylus: "He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain, which cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.”
Gentlemen, Gentlemen! About ½-hour into this I began to think of, my *Brother of Another Mother*- Stefan Verstappen [Link] . He is an absolute *must have* in the type of discussion You are having. He's a 'true Master' in most of the areas You take up. Knowledgeable as hell and truly generous & humble. Take a look at his Books, Videos and, his most recent work concerning *Forming Communities*. There is more there than most People can digest-in-a Lifetime.
I'm dead Serious. You will not be disappointed. Guaranteed.
I don't like wasting People's time nor sending folks down all kinds of rabbit-holes
Useful links:[Link] [Link] .
Ask Him to be on your show. Please.
I'm dead Serious. You will not be disappointed. Guaranteed.
I don't like wasting People's time nor sending folks down all kinds of rabbit-holes
Useful links:[Link] [Link] .
Ask Him to be on your show. Please.
I intend on listening to this in full. Somebody else at sott.net I think put forth "the rules of three" when it comes to prison guards and that really resonated with me. The three were: the ones who care, the ones who are apathetic, and the ones who are evil. (Credit goes to my friend on the deck the other day for facilitating succinctness). Anyhow, the moment has arrived I think when it is sort of a battle of wills over the apathetic betwixt the ones who care versus the ones who are evil. At the end of the day, and so much irony in this, those who had been apathetic will be the ones who choose in the end - or at least that is what the ones who care think. Caring is relative in a way.
hkoehli Thanks Harrison for the reply. You make the statement, "ever larger groups being able to live without murdering each other." I am not sure I see that this is true, especially as a result of war. It sure seems to me that the psychopaths have really been running the show and using war as their mechanism of control and profit. It also seems to me that the world needs a mutually agreed world view, like the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, that establishes inalienable human rights and freedom. Then how do you reduce the psychopaths successful drive to power.
Dwoods44 Murder rate in a typical hunter-gatherer tribe: 5% or higher (some as high as 20%+). Murder rate in the most violent country today (El Salvador): 0.06%. That's two orders of magnitude of difference. As we said in the show (or was it on my substack? can't remember), warfare and bigger societies pushes violence to the periphery (which as a result of modern technology makes modern warfare much more violent than a tribe of 50 battling another tribe of 50, for example). In a giant society, however, that means a greater number of people living peacefully WITHIN the borders. Even in massive wars, that means that proportionally, the losses suffered in terms of human lives will still be less than those typical for war in small-scale societies, where an entire tribe can be wiped out, or at least its entire adult male population.
You can't blame psychopaths for everything. People are capable of going to war without them, and have done so for thousands of years. It is ALSO true that psychopaths use warfare instrumentally. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
You can't blame psychopaths for everything. People are capable of going to war without them, and have done so for thousands of years. It is ALSO true that psychopaths use warfare instrumentally. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
hkoehli You said the "periphery" in the video. I see what you mean, on a percentage basis.
Regarding psychopaths: my current view is they are always seeking power and eliminating those who stand in the way. However, I would say that Putin's attack on the Ukraine, was strategic, to preempt the attack of the Ukraine on Donbas. The American revolution was a war to establish inalienable human rights. The American Civil War was to reaffirm the Founding Fathers. So I agree not all wars are psychopathic.
Does Turchin distinguish between wars that are like the Hero emperor and those that are psychopathic? Did the Korean, Vietnam, and Desert Storm wars lead to cooperation?
Regarding psychopaths: my current view is they are always seeking power and eliminating those who stand in the way. However, I would say that Putin's attack on the Ukraine, was strategic, to preempt the attack of the Ukraine on Donbas. The American revolution was a war to establish inalienable human rights. The American Civil War was to reaffirm the Founding Fathers. So I agree not all wars are psychopathic.
Does Turchin distinguish between wars that are like the Hero emperor and those that are psychopathic? Did the Korean, Vietnam, and Desert Storm wars lead to cooperation?
Dwoods44 I don't remember him making such distinctions, but his own moral perspective comes through in several sections. (For the most part he takes a scientific, realist approach - just stating the way things are/were.) And he doesn't write much about modern warfare. It's more of a bird's eye view of the the last 10,000 years, with focus on the shift from tribes to chiefdoms, to early states, to empires, to modern nation states, and how military technology was central to each of those shifts. For those modern wars, I can only give a generic answer: of course, in certain senses. The Americans and Koreans each had to cooperate to function as effective military forces, one for offense, the other for defense. But in terms of overall societal dynamics, the modern structure of nations had already been established for generations, so those wars didn't have huge effects on macro dynamics as they did, say, in response to the Steppe warrior threat.
hkoehli " It's more of a bird's eye view of the the last 10,000 years " 🤔 The last 10,000 years is proving to be incredibly problematic for academia.
The statement is verging on being flippant and niave.
The statement is verging on being flippant and niave.
hkoehli Such a demonstration of economy of words with such little return or impact.
We share the same planet, there's room for all of us you know
We share the same planet, there's room for all of us you know
In today's Russia: Russian Fauci craves genetic monkey-shot Based on his safe and effective Sputnik V slurry, of course by Edward Slavsquat [Link]
*
"It’s always comforting when something very predictable happens; it is further proof that the world, despite its veneer of chaotic randomness, is actually a very orderly and dependable place. At times even downright boring.
Case in point: Alexander Gintsburg, the Alexander Nevsky [Link] of Russian clot-shot shills, has publicly declared that 1. Russia needs to create a new vaccine to protect against the (soon to be renamed? [Link] ) monkey plague and 2. he could easily accomplish this task, using his unproven genetic slurry [Link] as a template, in as little as three months.
This guy has a true gift for digging up tasty scams; he’s like a truffle hog, but instead he’s a hog who can sniff out delicious and extremely profitable scams.
Anyway:..."
*
"It’s always comforting when something very predictable happens; it is further proof that the world, despite its veneer of chaotic randomness, is actually a very orderly and dependable place. At times even downright boring.
Case in point: Alexander Gintsburg, the Alexander Nevsky [Link] of Russian clot-shot shills, has publicly declared that 1. Russia needs to create a new vaccine to protect against the (soon to be renamed? [Link] ) monkey plague and 2. he could easily accomplish this task, using his unproven genetic slurry [Link] as a template, in as little as three months.
This guy has a true gift for digging up tasty scams; he’s like a truffle hog, but instead he’s a hog who can sniff out delicious and extremely profitable scams.
Anyway:..."
Dwoods44 Riley Waggaman is an American writer and journalist based in Moscow. He contributes to Anti-Empire and Russian Faith, and previously worked for Press TV, RT and Russia Insider. He is the author you are referring to that goes by the alias Edward Slavsquat. There is no VAERS data base in Russia. Waggaman's citations and links in his articles are excellent and scholarly. You can go down the rabbit hole & learn a lot about Russian society through this guy's links alone. I suggest you read his past writings about Sputnik V and you will find the results you seek. Here, start here...[Link]
Kunstler’s take on it today: [Link]
I agree. Now, time to watch and learn I hope. Tis a really sad day in so many ways, but sometimes in war you are on your heel for the last time ever. After that it is offense and mobilization in response to defenses that held ground. This WAR has only just begun.
I agree. Now, time to watch and learn I hope. Tis a really sad day in so many ways, but sometimes in war you are on your heel for the last time ever. After that it is offense and mobilization in response to defenses that held ground. This WAR has only just begun.
There is physical violence and there is mental violence. Mental violence has been on a serious exponential rise in the last 50 years. Improved communication facilitates mental violence, does it not? Mental violence is just as harmful as physical violence. ~
Cooperation breaks down as a result of mental violence. Being Julian Assange extradition is proceeding, and being harmful injections have been blessed by the “experts”, it seems most evident that mental violence proceeds apace. That is why the WAR HAS now, literally today, entered into a new phase. Being meek is not desirable in a soldier, and being apathetic is no longer acceptable nor advisable. Choose a side, and then may the best ideas prevail. BK
Cooperation breaks down as a result of mental violence. Being Julian Assange extradition is proceeding, and being harmful injections have been blessed by the “experts”, it seems most evident that mental violence proceeds apace. That is why the WAR HAS now, literally today, entered into a new phase. Being meek is not desirable in a soldier, and being apathetic is no longer acceptable nor advisable. Choose a side, and then may the best ideas prevail. BK
Buffalo_Ken Ah...."The art of war"
*
"If you don’t know what you are doing … your enemy doesn’t know what you are doing" -Joe (Brandon) Tzu
*
US Tested Neuromodulators on Socially Vulnerable Ukrainians - Russian Defense Ministry [Link]
*
"If you don’t know what you are doing … your enemy doesn’t know what you are doing" -Joe (Brandon) Tzu
*
US Tested Neuromodulators on Socially Vulnerable Ukrainians - Russian Defense Ministry [Link]
Taking firearms away from citizens is for their own good, mmmmkay? The US government would never lie to its subj... er, citizens.*
*
*Except...
Vince Foster killed himself.
There was no illegal conduct at the Rose Law Firm.
No former Clinton bodyguards died at Waco.
I did not have sex with that woman.
This administration did not use federal property to conduct fundraising.
Repealing Glass-Steagall won't result in banks owning everything.
Building 7 collapsed of its own accord.
Israel is our ally, and never spies on us.
Iraq will use its WMD against its neighbors.
Al-Qaeda is our enemy.
Iran is months/weeks away from creating nuclear weapons.
Mission Accomplished.
Illegal immigrants aren't coming here for government handouts.
Housing prices never depreciate.
Gold/silver are worthless, except as industrial metals.
Infinite financial growth is possible in a finite world.
Making homosexual marriage legal won't result in a slippery slope promoting pedophilia.
Progressive Democrats are neither socialists nor communists.
If you want to keep your doctor, you can keep your doctor; premiums will go down.
The US government does not record every electronic communication, text, or phone call made in the US.
China has never committed industrial, military or political espionage against the US.
We will never again allow bank bail-outs.
Al-Qaeda is our ally.
The CIA does not operate domestically.
The coup in Egypt wasn't supported or funded by the US.
Bin Laden was killed by US forces.
Man-made Climate Change is real.
Ghadaffi is a madman and must be removed from power.
ISIS is not funded or armed by the US.
Assad used chemical weapons against his own people.
Our embassy was attacked because of a YouTube video.
The US government does not release propaganda aimed at altering the conduct of US citizens.
The US government does not feed/leak stories to the media.
The US would never use military force against a civilian gathering.
The IRS acts impartially, and never discriminates based on political affiliation.
Maidan wasn't an instigated and funded coup by the US.
Riots, looting, arson and mayhem did not occur at mostly peaceful protests.
The FBI investigates all crimes and criminals equally, regardless of political affiliation.
The US DoJ is an impartial law-enforcement body that prosecutes all crimes and criminals equally, regardless of political affiliation.
No prosecutor in their right mind would file these charges.
The President colluded with Russia to win the election.
The President made an illegal phone call.
The President suborned insurrection.
A sitting US President does not have standing to challenge election results.
Domestic insurgents and white supremacists attempted to overthrow the US government on 1/6/2021.
Epstein killed himself.
The US did not fund gain-of-function virus research in China.
Social media supports free speech.
Utility shortages in CA have nothing to do with infrastructure.
Two weeks to flatten the curve.
Masks are safe and effective.
Vaccines are safe and effective.
Ivermectin is not safe or effective, and 'horse paste' is not approved for human use.
Supply chain issues are transitory.
Cryptocurrencies will be accepted for common goods and services.
Social media Fact Checkers are never wrong.
PedoJoe Xiden got 81 million votes.
There was no fraud.
Dual passport holders would never put another nation before the United States.
The CDC and the WHO only release information based on solid, scientific fact.
The Taliban will never retake Afghanistan.
Inflation is only transitory.
Hunter's laptop is a nothingburger.
Putin is a madman who attacked Ukraine without provocation.
Russia caused all inflation throughout the world in the last 16 months.
Boycotts of Russian goods will only hurt Russia.
Russia has lost an extraordinary amount of men and material in the Ukraine for no gain.
The US did not fund Bio-Chem labs in Ukraine.
The Russians are losing the war they started.
The USA wants to see peace in the world.
Cancelling oil leases and pipeline projects will increase energy supplies.
There will be no shortages of food or energy due to transitioning to a Green Economy.
The Federal Reserve Bank is containing inflation.
White supremacists are the greatest threat in the US.
Illegal immigration through the US southern border has been contained.
Replacement of white Americans through 3rd world immigration is a conspiracy theory.
Palestinian women and children attack Israeli soldiers without provocation.
The US has an independent news media, which is always accurate and truthful.
DHS is above partisan politics, and does not curtail the right of free speech.
The Republican Party is different from the Democrat Party.
When congress passes 'bipartisan' legislation, it has a positive effect on the country.
Corporate greed is responsible for high energy prices.
Once citizens have been disarmed, they will be safe from 'gun violence'.
*
*Except...
Vince Foster killed himself.
There was no illegal conduct at the Rose Law Firm.
No former Clinton bodyguards died at Waco.
I did not have sex with that woman.
This administration did not use federal property to conduct fundraising.
Repealing Glass-Steagall won't result in banks owning everything.
Building 7 collapsed of its own accord.
Israel is our ally, and never spies on us.
Iraq will use its WMD against its neighbors.
Al-Qaeda is our enemy.
Iran is months/weeks away from creating nuclear weapons.
Mission Accomplished.
Illegal immigrants aren't coming here for government handouts.
Housing prices never depreciate.
Gold/silver are worthless, except as industrial metals.
Infinite financial growth is possible in a finite world.
Making homosexual marriage legal won't result in a slippery slope promoting pedophilia.
Progressive Democrats are neither socialists nor communists.
If you want to keep your doctor, you can keep your doctor; premiums will go down.
The US government does not record every electronic communication, text, or phone call made in the US.
China has never committed industrial, military or political espionage against the US.
We will never again allow bank bail-outs.
Al-Qaeda is our ally.
The CIA does not operate domestically.
The coup in Egypt wasn't supported or funded by the US.
Bin Laden was killed by US forces.
Man-made Climate Change is real.
Ghadaffi is a madman and must be removed from power.
ISIS is not funded or armed by the US.
Assad used chemical weapons against his own people.
Our embassy was attacked because of a YouTube video.
The US government does not release propaganda aimed at altering the conduct of US citizens.
The US government does not feed/leak stories to the media.
The US would never use military force against a civilian gathering.
The IRS acts impartially, and never discriminates based on political affiliation.
Maidan wasn't an instigated and funded coup by the US.
Riots, looting, arson and mayhem did not occur at mostly peaceful protests.
The FBI investigates all crimes and criminals equally, regardless of political affiliation.
The US DoJ is an impartial law-enforcement body that prosecutes all crimes and criminals equally, regardless of political affiliation.
No prosecutor in their right mind would file these charges.
The President colluded with Russia to win the election.
The President made an illegal phone call.
The President suborned insurrection.
A sitting US President does not have standing to challenge election results.
Domestic insurgents and white supremacists attempted to overthrow the US government on 1/6/2021.
Epstein killed himself.
The US did not fund gain-of-function virus research in China.
Social media supports free speech.
Utility shortages in CA have nothing to do with infrastructure.
Two weeks to flatten the curve.
Masks are safe and effective.
Vaccines are safe and effective.
Ivermectin is not safe or effective, and 'horse paste' is not approved for human use.
Supply chain issues are transitory.
Cryptocurrencies will be accepted for common goods and services.
Social media Fact Checkers are never wrong.
PedoJoe Xiden got 81 million votes.
There was no fraud.
Dual passport holders would never put another nation before the United States.
The CDC and the WHO only release information based on solid, scientific fact.
The Taliban will never retake Afghanistan.
Inflation is only transitory.
Hunter's laptop is a nothingburger.
Putin is a madman who attacked Ukraine without provocation.
Russia caused all inflation throughout the world in the last 16 months.
Boycotts of Russian goods will only hurt Russia.
Russia has lost an extraordinary amount of men and material in the Ukraine for no gain.
The US did not fund Bio-Chem labs in Ukraine.
The Russians are losing the war they started.
The USA wants to see peace in the world.
Cancelling oil leases and pipeline projects will increase energy supplies.
There will be no shortages of food or energy due to transitioning to a Green Economy.
The Federal Reserve Bank is containing inflation.
White supremacists are the greatest threat in the US.
Illegal immigration through the US southern border has been contained.
Replacement of white Americans through 3rd world immigration is a conspiracy theory.
Palestinian women and children attack Israeli soldiers without provocation.
The US has an independent news media, which is always accurate and truthful.
DHS is above partisan politics, and does not curtail the right of free speech.
The Republican Party is different from the Democrat Party.
When congress passes 'bipartisan' legislation, it has a positive effect on the country.
Corporate greed is responsible for high energy prices.
Once citizens have been disarmed, they will be safe from 'gun violence'.
War may have been the prime mover, but war has eventually led every empire to the conflict it fought to avoid – its own destruction. Everyone eventually gets the war they don’t want: nobody wants nuclear Armageddon. The implication of the syllogism is clear. Why this cycle? Because all wars are about power: but power is an illusion. [Link]
Battle, assisting our evolution/advancement, it makes sober sense...a changing climate, the hunt for resources, expansion, raiding parties, cultural differences, to advances in weaponry, economic incentives, fear, blame, revenge, slavery, prestige, influence, the cultivation of disunity...and without doubt, from each adjustment, winners and losers, but, if today is the result of champions, then i'd like to have another look at the also-rans.
[Link]