Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane

- The End, The Doors
It goes without saying that we rarely get an accurate representation of reality in the corporate media, which is, after all, what independent media exists for. Last Sunday Joe Quinn and I interviewed a very ordinary couple with a very extraordinary tale: businesspeople James and Joanne Moriarty and how they escaped from capture by Al Qaeda terrorists during the 2011 'Libyan revolution'. Listening to James and Joanne tell their story, it was impossible not to be struck by the significance, for every human being on this planet, of the problem of psychopaths in positions of power.

The Moriartys present three powerful motivating factors for the destruction of Libya by Western powers and their internationalist financiers:
  • thwarting Gaddafi's plan to establish a gold-backed currency, to ultimately serve as a pan-African currency and thereby economically unite African nations and free them from Western imperialism;
  • the US desire to establish AFRICOM (military control of Africa to ward off Chinese investment)
  • an alleged $7 trillion lawsuit, on behalf of all participating African countries, at Gaddafi's instigation, to sue for damages incurred from broken treaties with European countries during their "colonial era".
So far from "freeing the Libyan people from a dictator", the NATO bombardment of Libya in 2011 was about the maintenance of US and EU domination over Africa.

But what really comes across in this riveting interview with the Moriartys is the utter recklessness displayed in Libya (and elsewhere, for that matter) by both NATO and the 'rebel' forces, as well as the relish with which they demonstrably enjoyed tearing the entire country apart. These demented animals have access to unparalleled hi-tech weaponry and vehicles, enabling them to 'achieve feats of destruction' that before only 'the gods' could perform. Their handiwork is psychopathy writ large, the nihilistic culmination of Western civilization, and the glorious - for them - embrace of the destructive principle.

Running Time: 02:17:00

Download: MP3

Among the things we discussed in the interview were the back-story to how two Texan businesspeople came to be in Libya; what Libya - and Gaddafi - was really like pre-2011; the real ideological motivations for the 'humanitarian intervention' - listed above; the atrocities and war crimes witnessed by the Moriartys as they traveled throughout the country as international observers on behalf of a fact-finding commission launched by an international youth organization; their incredible escape from terrorist capture; and the persecution they are today being subjected to by the US government.

Gaddafi was so loved across the continent that African tribal leaders made him 'King of Africa'
One of the most important points to understand about Libya in 2011 is that Gaddafi was no longer the country's formal political leader. Since 2006 he was essentially Libya's spiritual leader, a symbol, although he did continue to represent the people's interests on the international stage. The country's form of government - the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya - was nominally socialist, in the sense that wealth was fairly distributed, but it was way more than that. Gaddafi had created, or was the inspiration for, the closest you will ever get to 'utopia' on Earth. Libya wasn't just democratic (in the positive sense of the word); it was humane in a way not seen in the West in a long, long time.

That imaginary world you may have dreamed of, where there's no debt, no insurance companies, no banks (certainly no Central Bank), and where everyone's needs are taken care of... well, that was Libya pre-2011. Disputes were largely settled between people without state intervention. Libya's modest military was equipped with Soviet weapons from the 1980s, and was therefore an easy target for overwhelming NATO firepower.

Since the Lockerbie and Berlin disco bombings, for which he was framed by the CIA and friends - Gaddafi was a pariah in 'the international community'. After the 9/11 attacks, he sought to bury the hatchet with the West and committed Libya to Bush's War On Terror, providing rich intel on radicals in his country and making deals that would lift the decades-long embargo on Libya, not least, claim the Moriartys, via massive bribes to Western leaders like former French President Nicholas Sarkozy and Barack Obama (via one of his uncles). Sarkozy was investigated by police for accepting 50 million euros for his 2007 presidential election campaign from Gaddafi.

Western political psychopaths repaid Gaddafi with an extreme form of 'regime change' that saw Gaddafi almost literally torn apart by NATO-backed blood-thirsty "rebels".

The Moriartys describe how NATO forces bombed the country's archival buildings, in an apparent effort to eliminate all traces of Libyan history. They blew up homes, streets, food stores, schools, hospitals, basic infrastructure like water supplies, wheat fields and date-palm groves. They 'opened up' the country for what it is today a truly "failed state" with daily violence and not one but two competing governments. Libya has some of the best preserved Roman ruins in all the Mediterranean. I don't know if NATO bombed those too, but based on what's happening in Syria, it's only a matter of time before those are destroyed too.

'I came, I saw, I laughed my a** off!'
The 'Libyan rebels' (today operating as ISIS in Syria and Iraq) that Western citizens cheered were invariably completely off their heads on drugs. The Moriartys told us how they heard the screams of Libyan soldiers being dragged into their hotel in Tripoli, then taken upstairs to be tortured to death. Mosques were turned into torture centers by the 'Islamist' rebels, where thousands of people were raped, cut into pieces, limb-by-limb, and force-fed to the still-living.

The death toll from NATO's bombardment and its roving death squads is, based on figures compiled and passed to the Moriartys by tribal leaders, at least 600,000 dead. The population of Libya was 6 million at the time. The Moriartys say 40,000 of those were tortured to death. Based on meetings with tribal leaders, they reported to the fact-finding commission that 100,000 people were killed by NATO bombing in the first month. They claim that NATO dropped more bombs on Libya from March-October 2011 than were dropped in the entire world during World War Two. The total figure they have for the number of 'rebels' is far higher than anything reported anywhere else: 250,000 terrorists poured into the country from all over the Middle East and beyond. It's clear that the terrorists particularly targeted black Africans, with the Moriartys describing the slaughter as a 'black genocide'. There are at least 128 mass graves in the country. Another two million people are displaced, barely surviving in refugee camps on the Tunisian and Egyptian borders.

A quarter of a million terrorists... this gives you an idea of the scale of these US-led proxy wars. No wonder the combined might of the Syrian, Iranian, Iraqi and Hezbollah forces struggles against 'ISIS' in the Syrian desert - they are up against so many foot-soldiers of empire.

Libya was completely obliterated
The Western powers embargoed Libya of food, water, medical supplies - just like Yemen is undergoing now. Thousands of armed pick-ups rolled off cargo ships at ports, unloading humvees, SUVs, and pickups loaded for bear with heavy artillery and mercenaries. The Moriartys describe attack helicopters arriving in Tripoli from aircraft carriers and firing indiscriminately at anything and everything. 1,300 people, mostly civilians, were killed on the very first day of the establishment of NATOs so-called 'no-fly zone'.

Six days into the coup-d'état-disguised-as-a-'revolution', the new regime, the Western-imposed 'National Transitional Council of Libya', opened Libya's first ever central bank. For Libya to be 'welcomed back into the international community', all its cash, precious metals, and other assets - at home and abroad - were signed over to the new privately-owned, foreign-controlled Central Bank of Libya. The Moriartys say they also agreed to the construction of a permanent Israeli military base in Libya, and that they have documents to prove it.

Today they plant the flag in new territory for us, tomorrow they hate us for our freedoms
If you were a journalist in Libya during this time you were relatively safe; not because these animals respected journalists as neutral observers, but because the journalists were on their side. The Moriartys have evidence of embedded journalists, not least from Qatar-owned Al Jazeera, whose staff were among the terrorists from day one, personally calling in airstrikes and working side-by-side with the terrorists.

The Moriartys know what happened in the Benghazi 'consulate' attack on September 11th, 2012. They had foreknowledge of an attack, but no one in Washington, D.C. was interested in what they were hearing on the ground. Afterwards, locals told them where the attackers could be found. Still no interest from Washington; the US State Department's announcement at the time of a "$10 million reward for information leading to the capture of Stevens' killers" was pure theater. The Moriartys described to us in detail, based on accounts from eyewitnesses with whom they spoke, the scene at the residence that night. Among other things, Stevens appears to have been killed before the attack started.

As to why Ambassador Chris Stevens was sacrificed, they suspect it's because he "knew too much". Stevens was overseeing - or was at least deeply involved in - shipments of weapons and terrorists through the Benghazi residence, which was actually a CIA safe-house, to Syria to fuel the US government's proxy war against Assad that begun in earnest earlier in 2012. The Moriartys suggest that Stevens may have been trying to recall delivery of 20,000 'MANPAD' portable surface-to-air missile launchers to the terrorists.

A terrorist in Libya posing with one of the MANPADS American Ambassador Chris Stevens gave him
When the Moriartys became trapped inside Libya, the US government basically told them to 'pound dirt'. Escape only became possible when the Russian ambassador directed them towards a rescue ship sent by the Maltese government. They tried in vain to locate the ship, but it never docked because the situation was so dangerous. And then, back at their hotel in Tripoli, they were cornered by some of the 'rebels', who told them their names were "on our list." Having learned at this point that these maniacs were being paid handsomely for each person they killed, with bonus payments if they cut up and burned the bodies, the Moriartys thought their goose was cooked. They watched as Western TV crews recorded interviews with foreign nationals, which they later realized was being allowed only because these people's statements were subsequently used in Western media reports as evidence of 'atrocities committed by the Gaddafi regime'.

The Moriartys' eventual miraculous escape from that NATO-created hell-hole came when they paid $16,000 to the 'rebels', one of whom took pity on them and led them to safety. As someone from the US Defense Intelligence Agency later told them, "Y'all need to be written up in the Guinness Book of Records because no one has ever escaped al Qaeda alive."

Please note, the Moriartys are ordinary business people. They had no anti-Western or 'liberal' ax to grind in going to Libya. They were there on the basis of good old-fashioned American capitalism.

Finally making it back to the US, via Tunisia and Rome, the Moriartys were 'debriefed on arrival', and spent the next year speaking with various intel agencies. US officials wanted their story, and the evidence they had gathered for the fact-finding commission, but the Moriartys realized that their information was being used to assist rather than thwart the terrorists in Libya. After being told explicitly to "shut up, or else", they went public with their information. More death threats ensued and they narrowly escaped an attempt to frame them for possession of drugs. They are regularly harassed by government agents and are blacklisted from restarting their oil-cleaning business or gaining employment. The Moriartys are living hand-to-mouth thanks to donations and sales of their DVD, 'Escape from Al Qaeda', which I strongly encourage you to purchase.

French 'philosopher' Bernard Henri-Levy, posing with two jihadists
The DVD includes a presentation/talk given by the Moriartys, an interview they gave in Libya, an interview with US Rep. Dennis Kucinich on US intervention in Libya, and never-before-seen footage of the destruction wrought by Western military in Libya, US Special Forces operating there, and the two-million-strong rallies held by ordinary Libyans, at the height of NATO's blitzkrieg, in support of Gaddafi and their government. The DVD also includes a documentary produced by the fact-finding commission on the basis of the Moriartys' reports. I should warn you that the DVD contains some extremely graphic footage (the 'rebels' laughing as they behead people, and forcing captured Libyan soldiers - hands bound and down on their knees - to eat parts of their dead comrades), but you should force yourself to watch that anyway, at least once, while keeping in mind: 'This is the outer expression of the inner nature of the people who run my government.'

When speaking with people as they travelled the country collecting data, the Moriartys tried to impress on them the urgent need to counter the lies in the Western media about what was happening there, to which the Libyans responded, "The truth and our fate will save us." In their naivety, they believed - in the terror of the moment anyway - that being good, decent people was enough. But I think the only thing that might have prevented this is if enough of us in the West had known the truth about our psychopathic leaders and what they do.

And so, listen to the interview above, and please share. Transcript below.

Niall: Hi and welcome to Behind the Headlines. I'm Niall Bradley, with me as always, Joe Quinn.

Joe: Hi there.

Niall: Today, what happened to Libya? We're interviewing James and JoAnne Moriarty. They are an American couple who were in Libya when it all went down in flames back in 2011. James and JoAnne have visited Libya numerous times since about 2007 when they patented a unique enzyme that cleans oil wells and oil extraction equipment. This was in high demand of course in Libya, being an oil producing country. After signing a joint venture with the Libyan government near Tripoli, they began building a production facility to fulfill contracts for their product. Then in February 2011 the so-called Libyan Revolution begins.

Later that year in May they were involved or led - we'll find out from them soon - an NGO fact-finding commission. They went around Libya watching what was going down through August of 2011. During this time they were kidnapped and were very lucky to escape with their lives. We'll be getting their story about what happened there. They have presented the information you're about to hear, backed up with extensive documentation at numerous speaking events. Based on radio shows like today they've been blacklisted, soft-killed, isolated and financially ruined. They've put together a DVD Escape from al-Qaeda. You should also check out their website libyanwarthetruth.com. A very big welcome to James and JoAnne Moriarty.

James: Thank you so much. We're honoured to be on your show today.

JoAnne: Nice to be here.

Joe: James and JoAnne it's great to have you here. Let's just take it from the top here. You guys are from Texas, right, originally? Or not?

James: I was originally from Texas, JoAnne from Oregon but I had three properties here in the United States and that was the Woodlands, Texas, which is a suburb of Houston. And then we had a little ranch farm in Arizona where we grew rattlesnakes and scorpions. And then JoAnne had a big home in the Portland area.

Joe: So what took two enterprising people like that to Libya. Why did you end up in Libya because I'm pretty sure, relatively speaking, there aren't a lot of Americans in Libya.

James: In fact, when we were there the annual amount of foreigners in Libya was about 380,000 and probably about 350,000 of those were involved in the oil and gas industry. But beginning before 2000 we started developing our technology. What we do is a medical grade DNA manipulation of microbes and then we kill all the living portion off and we end up with enzymes that do a lot of neat things to oil or any kind of sticky oil, even chicken fat. We literally make millions of different products. We've been at it so long that we custom build an enzyme for each activity. Each oil well we rejuvenate we run a laboratory analysis and build and enzyme. We literally build millions of products.

We treated oil wells in China, Indonesia, Venezuela. We did superfund clean up sites in the United States. We have a great product. We don't have any peers and any time we compete against the big guys we always get contracts. In fact when they have screwed up oil wells that they could not rejuvenate they called us to come in and fix their problems. We never patented the product. We maintained control over our codes, if you would, by doing all the production ourselves.

So we pumped everything we made back into the business and we were very, very successful at it. In the 38 years since Libya was embargoed, they had no new technology so we knew that they were a prime candidate for us and we were trying to get agents in Libya before the treaty was ever signed. But after the treaty was signed in 2006 that opened the door for us and other companies to go into Libya.

So we actually were in Libya. We arrived the first of January 2007 and that was through the assistance of a friend of JoAnne's who was a member of the royal family in England who had known Libya and Gaddafi. So we were one of the first foreigners, if you would, in Libya. We went there of course to try to exploit our business. We went there the first time for five days. We had four security guys with us. They were all about the size of a mountain and they were there to protect us because everything we heard about Libya, that those guys were crazy and they were radical and everything. We really went there just to take a look-see.

We'd planned to be there five days. We liked them. They liked us. They asked us to stay an extra couple of weeks. They said they wanted to try and arrange a contract for our product. That was all good. And every night we ended up meeting with a different minister, not necessarily about our business. They wanted to know how business was done in the western world. They wanted to know how contracts were arranged, who negotiated, who was represented; a different ministers every night. They were really nice people and they were all perhaps naïve but I always called them innocent because they were really not hard core business people like we had met in other parts of the Middle East or in the western world.

JoAnne: And also what we found out when we got there, after packing a bunch of scarves for myself, thinking I was going to have to cover my head, but Libya was the most progressive Muslim country in the world. Gaddafi had emancipated women in the '70s. They were doctors, lawyers, homemakers, entrepreneurs and members of the military and they spoke their minds. They were in the government.

James: They were driving their own cars. They owned their own businesses. It was so different from what we had heard that after two days I sent our security team home. We didn't need them. We walked the streets without any security or anything.

JoAnne: And Libyans loved Americans. They loved people from outside their country. They were always looking forward to them coming. They'd come up on the street and say "Where are you from? England? Where are you from?" And we'd say "America" and they'd say "Hollywood, Hollywood!"

James: "Do you like our country?" Very friendly.

JoAnne: Very friendly people. Very nice people.

Joe: As James just said, he got the impression they weren't hard core business people. That has a lot to do with the way Libyan society had been structured under Gaddafi, right?

James: Yeah. I think it's more tribal.

Joe: Okay.

James: The thing we found out about the Libyans is they are the most non-confrontational people I have ever met in my entire life. They won't start a fight. You can't get them to start a fight. I'll give you an example of their culture. If I run into your car, you're going to forgive me for that accident, but then I'm going to owe you a favour.

JoAnne: They don't have insurance.

James: And next week, next month or next year you may call me and say "My daughter's getting married. I want you to supply the food for the festival." And I'm obligated to do that and if I don't do it, then my family must do it and if my family doesn't do it, then my tribe must step forward and do it. And that's how they settle all of their problems.

Now if two people are so hard-headed that they cannot agree immediately to settle their differences, then those two people are put in a jail cell together and they're fed gruel and camel's milk until they come to an agreement, just like they should have made in the first place. That's their culture. It was completely different from what we had expected but they are non-confrontational people. They don't want to fight about anything.

JoAnne: There's a great little side story of a couple of tribes that had been warring for years, killing each other and fighting each other. The bloodless coup happened in 1969, when 11 of the leaders of the biggest tribes came together and kicked out the old despot king who was put in there by the United Kingdom - Libya never had a king, the king was installed by England and he was a despot. Libya was the poorest country in Africa at that time. Libyans made an average of 60 dinars a year. Libyan people never owned their own land. They were basically the slaves of the Italians and the occupiers of their land.

As soon as the king found out there was going to be a coup he ran off. That's who he was. He just ran off. So the 11 tribes appointed Gaddafi to be their leader because he was one of the youngest. He was the most charismatic. He was highly educated. So he took over and he immediately gave all the land to all the Libyans that were working it. That's the first thing he did.

James: It was the first time they'd ever owned the land they had been working for generations.

JoAnne: For ever. They never owned it before. But I was going to tell you the story of these two tribes, how he handled this. These two tribes were fighting and in the middle of the night one night, some police showed up and took the people, in their pajamas, all the members of each tribe, out to the desert and put them in a giant tent and each had one side, brought all of their belongings behind them, gave them to them, brought food, brought everything they needed. And they were told "You two tribes are going to stay in this tent in the desert with food and water, you'll be taken care of, until you come to an agreement that you're going to get along. They were out there a year! And now they're very close. They don't fight anymore.

Joe: Wow! That's interesting.

James: Sounds like a dictator, doesn't it?

Niall: No, it's so different to what we think of when we hear the word Libya. It's the opposite.

James: It's an education. I'm going to tell you a little bit about Libya that we found out. From the time that Gaddafi for all practical purposes took over, until the time we got there, Libya went from being the poorest and least developed country in Africa to the number one country. The average salary was $15,700 a year. That was higher than China and India. When you got married the government gave you a $46,000 gift. Each child began with a $5,000 gift from the government. Your house cost you 10 percent of your salary for 20 years and then it was yours.

They were building 620,000 new condominiums of at least 2,000 square feet each. Your first car cost you half of dealer invoice. Your utilities were paid, electricity, gas, etc. Gasoline was 44 cents a gallon. Their education was fully paid to whatever extent your brain would support. While we were there we knew a young man who was getting his PhD in England. He had a wife and four kids; tuition fees, books all paid for plus his stipend was £4,500 a month. Hospitalization was fully paid and if you could not get the treatment in Libya, then the government would pay for you to do anywhere in the world and have the treatment paid for. They paid your expenses, travel expenses, and the expenses of a family member to go with you.

Nobody in Libya had any debt. The country had no debt. They only spent about 49 percent of the money they took in to run the government. The rest of the money was distributed out via these activities for the people. The people lived very well. If you were a bad businessman and you lost your money for whatever reason and you needed to feed your family, there were food storehouses all over the country. You could go up to the storehouse, tell them you needed food and without any ID or anything, they'd give you 50 kilos of rice and 50 kilos of flour, 20 kilos of powdered milk, enough money to have an animal slaughtered, 20 kilos of cheese, etc.

They gifted it to you and if you had to come back two or three days later, do it again. At Ramadan, which is like their Christmas, any man, woman or child could go into any bank in Libya and they got a $500 gift from the government.

So the people in Libya had a really good life. There was never any intent for those people to have an uprising. That was an absolute false flag operation.

JoAnne: There was corruption there. There was always corruption.

James: Oh yeah.

JoAnne: The Turkish mafia was there and they caused a huge amount of trouble. They were in Misrata and they actually emigrated from Turkey about 150 years ago and they feigned that they joined Libyan society and became Muslims and everything but that was all a lie. They actually became the biggest mafia in Libya and they were the cause of a huge amount of the problems with a lot of the contracts that were going on.

James: The reason that they were able to become the dominant mafia is because, as I said, the Libyans were non-confrontational. These people went in there and they physically abused everybody until they got 60 percent of all the contracts. They were given to them without bid or tender. Then they would turn around and sublet these contracts out to foreign contracting companies and builders. And when we went there, that first trip in, we actually ended up signing a contract to rejuvenate 2,500 of their monster wells that would have required about $600 million to a billion dollars worth of just our enzyme. The oil field service charges on top of that would have probably been another billion or billion-and-a-half. That's with a B! So we actually hit a home run first shot out of the barrel. That never happens.

So we then had to go back and find out how Libya did business because we read the problems that they had with all these foreign contractors that were abandoning projects. There were 150 that had been abandoned at big loss to the foreign developers. So we started studying Libyan law and tried to find a Libyan partner because we do not do the in-field service work. We do our magic in our laboratory and production facility but the treatment of the wells and the clean up of the pipelines, sludge fits and all that is done by a local company. We let the local company do the politicking and everything. That's been our modus operandi in China, Indonesia, Venezuela, every place we've ever done business.

We first of all had to find out how the country worked, what the laws were and then find a good Libyan partner that we could trust to do the quality work that we needed to make our products successful as they had been every place else. It really took us almost two years to finally get to the point that we could build companies that would qualify in Libya to be paid directly from the government, in other words, not be a subcontractor under a Libyan partner. And they did have laws that allowed that. Now it required a plethora of documentation that had been clued, notary sealed, it had to include the secretary of state in the United States sign every document. It required that the American Chamber of Commerce do that.

Well we ended up with two corporations, American Petroleum Consortium and Libyan American Consortium that were actually qualified with 11 ministries in Libya as Libyan companies, which meant we could be paid directly from the government without any Libyan involved in it.

JoAnne: And by law in Libya, if you get a contract, the money for that contract has to be put into a bank account fully funded before you can start the project.

James: So I'm a banker. We like that! If the money was there, when we had done our work properly, then we would be able to pencil out our profit on the front end. So Libya was a place that was really welcoming to foreigners as long as they did the paperwork properly.

JoAnne: Let me say something about the Libyan government because nobody understands and we didn't understand about the Libyan government. When we were on our fact-finding mission is when we actually found out exactly how it works. We went to Al Fateh University and spoke to some of the professors there. The Libyan government has two parts. They have an elected parliament, elected from all over Libya that's headed by a prime minister. The prime minister's name was Baghdadi at the time of the war.

James: Gaddafi was required to step down according to the treaty of 2006 so Gaddafi had not been the leader of Libya since the treaty.

JoAnne: And understand this is a little confusing because I always asked the Libyans "But you say he's your leader." They said "Yes, he is our leader. You have to understand us. We're a tribal society. He is our spiritual leader, our brother." That's how they refer to him. He's not the leader of the government. Baghdadi was the prime minister.

The other part of the government is the general secretary of the tribes and those are appointed tribal leaders of all the tribes that come together. There's about 250 of them and they are the shadow government. They have the right to remove politicians and do a whole bunch of stuff. So they really had a more pure democracy than anybody in the world.

James: There are really two houses there. One of them is elected and one of them is democratically appointed through the tribes. So they really had a counterbalance system with the tribes being the shadow government. The thing that we saw was that Baghdadi was appointed. He was the guy that was put in place by the Misrata mafia. Of course all kinds of criminal activities were going on all the time from the Misrata. In fact they had a 10-storey building outside of Tripoli on the west side and it stands all by itself and we drove by it all the time. They said "That's the building of Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves." That's what they called the Misrata. (laughter).

So they knew they were criminals and they would go complain to Gaddafi about how these were criminals and he said "You elected him. Go on the street. Throw him out! Vote him out!"

JoAnne: Take to the street. This is your country.

James: He said "I can't do that." And I know this is his mentality because I think it was in 2010, the European community gathered up €60 billion to donate to the third world countries in Africa.

JoAnne: An African union.

James: And they appointed Gaddafi as the keeper of those funds. He was interviewed there in France by one of your reporters and the reporter said "This is not much money for all of Africa" and Gaddafi said "You're not going to ever help Africa by giving them money. You're going to help Africa by training them to work and training them to be productive themselves."

So again, it sounds like a hell of a dictator.

JoAnne: We did not ever meet Gaddafi, we didn't know him. We did business more with the tribes, but I have to tell you I met Gaddafi though literally the thousands and thousands of Libyans we met when we were there on the fact-finding mission, through the hearts and minds of the people of Libya. That's where we met him. I have to say that anything I say about him came from those people, not from him.

Joe: Right. He was generally loved.

James: Yes. About 85 percent fully supported him. There had always been this radical niche on the far east side around Derna, of radicals. I think the gene pool over there was probably limited and so those guys were a lot of psychopaths and a lot of nutters.

JoAnne: Most of them were in exile because they couldn't come back. Libya did not allow any radical Islam inside the country, period.

James: In fact if you had a beard and a moustache you probably couldn't get a job and definitely would not be elevated.

Niall: Yeah, that was clear right after 9/11. Gaddafi was first and foremost among the Middle Eastern countries to get behind the war on terror. He was saying "Yeah, I know there are extremists. Look what we do. We lock them up."

James: Let me give you better than that. In the first week of February 2011 the United States department of defence declared that Gaddafi and Libya were the strongest allies in the war against terrorism because Gaddafi had been actively trying to help clear the world of these radical psychopaths. He was the first one that went to the UN and said that Al-Qaeda...

JoAnne: Was a growing threat.

James: ...was a growing threat and has to be dealt with. And of course two weeks after the department of defence gave him this big award he was then declared the worst guy that ever drew a breath in the media.

JoAnne: You have to understand Gaddafi did none of those terrorist acts, like Lockerby. Libya was not involved in any of those. How could he hate terrorism and then be a terrorist? It doesn't even make any sense.

Joe: There's enough evidence now to show that those terror attacks that Libya was accused of, apart from Lockerby, was a completely fabricated case against Libya.

JoAnne: CIA.

Joe: Right, that it was more or less the CIA that was involved in blowing that plane up. But there's a previous one, the US bombing of Benghazi and Tripoli maybe, in 1986 because of the Berlin disco bombing in August of that year...

James: That's also been proven to be a false flag. So was the murder of that police officer outside the Libyan embassy. That was not done by Libya. The reason Gaddafi paid those fines is to get back in the mainstream. At the time that the embargoes took place, Libya was producing 3.7 million barrels of oil a day. When we went into Libya in 2011 it was less than a million barrels of oil a day and that was because known technology had been allowed into the country to help them get their production up.

JoAnne: There was tremendous support from the Libyan people and from Gaddafi's advisors for him to do that. Just forget it.

James: So he bought off the complaints in order to get the country back into the world market.

Niall: And that's why we see him meeting Tony Blair and Nicholas Sarkozy prior to all this going down. He was basically burying the hatchet by taking the blame and paying up even though he wasn't responsible.

James: He gave Sarkozy $50 million for his campaign when he was elected.

JoAnne: And Sarkozy was the lead in killing him.

James: He also gave $10 million to Barack Obama's uncle, gave $50 million to Barack Obama when he was running for President and of course that helped finance the knife in his back.

Joe: These people are just scumbags. You mentioned Obama getting money from Gaddafi and Sarkozy getting $50 million for his Presidential election campaign. And he got elected and Sarkozy was in court over that, over taking campaign funds. But what kind of person do you have to be to do that? Take $50 million from Gaddafi and a couple of years later...

JoAnne: They told a bunch of lies to have him killed.

James: You've got to get who's really pulling the strings. These are just puppets.

Joe: Right.

James: The Zionists, the bankers, are the guys in all this. I'm going to get into now why Libya was blown up.

Niall: Please do.

Joe: But I just wanted to say that when I mentioned the US bombing of Libya in 1986 because supposedly Libya was accused of blowing up a German disco in 1986, like James just said, there is evidence and in 1998 it was on a German TV show. GDF television had a show on it and they laid out the evidence that it was the CIA and Mossad who were running the guys who were involved in that. These were effectively CIA and Mossad agents who were directly involved in the blowing up of that discotheque.

James: Those two entities are responsible for all these false flag operations forever. The reason you don't get it is because there are not enough guys like you out there telling the truth.

Joe: Right. And the Israeli involvement I think was because Gaddafi was supporting the Palestinians, right?

James: No. They've been involved in all the false flag operations in support of the Zionists. And the Zionists have hijacked the Jewish religion.

Niall: Right.

James: But the Zionists are out to take over the world and there's 85 people that own 75 percent of everything in the world.

JoAnne: They wanted a military base in the Green Mountain part of Libya. We have the actual documents, which came from the tribes' security, signed by the Mossad with the so-called "rebels" which was Al-Qaeda and MTC...

James: MTC.

JoAnne: ... that if the Mossad would arm and train them and help them, then they would give them Israel an area to build a military base in the Green Mountain area of Libya.

James: That was during 2010 a long time before Arab Spring. But the reason JoAnne and I are authorities is we had been in Libya 17 times, from January 2007 until February of 2011.

JoAnne: August 2011.

James: Well we'd been there 17 times. We were there never less than 30 days. Several times we were there more than three months at a time. We'd been all over the country and successively we signed additional contracts to do all kinds of activities in Libya. So we were really business people that were fully exploiting our opportunities in Libya. We got to know the Libyan people. We traveled all over the country. We traveled more in Libya than Libyans did.

JoAnne: We loved the country. It's a beautiful country. Parts of the desert have the Jewel Lakes and it's a really strikingly beautiful country.

James: And more pristine Roman ruins than you'll ever see in Rome, Greece or any place.

JoAnne: And the Libyan people are so friendly that it makes it very nice and easy to move around.

James: I arrived January 1st, 2011. I signed my joint venture contract. It was actually with the social security investment fund of John Zuher. There were six investment funds in Libya. That was the smallest one at $16 billion. The biggest one was $33 billion for the Tripoli employees. But the reason that was the perfect partner for us is the beneficiaries of that fund were all the retired workers from the oil and gas industry, the national oil company, the oil producers, the in-field service people. So it gave us the best political muscle we could ever have, a great partnership with them.
And then two days later I signed the contract to locate our production facility in a new free zone that was being built near the Tunisian border. I then ordered in all the materials which are ceramic-lined stainless steel. Our entire plant is ceramic-lined stainless steel because we grow the microbes in the equivalent of a beer batter which of course is real caustic. Then I brought in enough feed stocks to supply that plant for two years.

So between the cash we put in the banks there and that facility, we had over $200 million in Libya. I left there on the 8th of February 2011. Less than 10 days later, supposedly the revolution started. But I'll tell you something strange about that revolution. Supposedly it was spontaneous, but on the same day within an hour of each other, 18 police stations were fire bombed with cars.

JoAnne: In different cities.

James: In different cities all over the country. Then those stations were attacked. Everybody in there was killed. They took the guns and everything out. The next thing they did, within a couple of hours they took bulldozers and knocked down the fencing of military weapons storage places. They had the right kind of hook on the front of the bulldozers to drag the tanks out of there, then they turned the turrets around and started firing on the military.So this was an absolute military operation from day one and for anybody to say it was a spontaneous uprising is an absolute bald-faced lie.

The next thing that happened that was so unusual, the first time in history that a bunch of rabble-rouser rebels start a revolution in a country and six days after the revolution starts, they opened up a central bank in Benghazi. Immediately that central bank was recognized and all the money that Libya had in the Federal Reserve System and in Euroclear was released to that central bank. That was extensive money. Libya had $241 billion in cash and cash equivalents in the Federal Reserve System. They had €150 billion in Euroclear. All these deposits were required for Libya to be accepted back into the international community.

Libya also had $39 billion in cash in the country. They had 179 tonnes of gold, 2,000 tonnes of silver. They had lots of tonnes of very other rare earth, heavy earth and precious metal that you can imagine. So Libya was a very, very wealthy country and they had no debt.

So it was really easy for the Zionists to pick on Libya and say "Well gosh, we need to blow them up anyhow and this will be a hell of a profit centre for us." All that has disappeared. And you need to remember there were only six to six-and-a-half million Libyans in the whole country. The country was the seventh largest footprint in Africa, 17th largest country in the world and about number five in recoverable reserves of oil and gas.

Now then, why did Libya get blown up? There was three real reasons. The first one was the United States is bound and determined to have a war with China, and Africa is the continent with the most natural resources of any place. So the United States has set up Africom, which is military control of Africa, in order to keep the Chinese away from those natural resources. Libya, South Africa and six other countries told the United States they could go pound sand because they were never going to give up military control of their country.

So of course the United States says "Well hell, we need to get rid of Libya. It's the strongest country because we've got to have military control of Africa." So the United States is ready to knock them off for that reason. Second, Gaddafi was a real bright guy and he didn't like any of the banks at all. He didn't like any of the foreign banks. When JoAnne and I first went in there we planned to be there five days and had some money. Staying there another two weeks required we needed more cash; no credit cards, nothing. Their only international bank was Western Union. We loved that because that meant there were no international banks there.

JoAnne: No Zionists there.

James: That meant we could do business there. So Gaddafi didn't like international banks so whenever he retired, he started to develop the African Bank. It's domiciled in the Comoro Islands. It has a gold-backed dinar for the continent of Africa. Every Arab country had signed up as members. Half of Africa had signed up as members. So the Zionists had to blow up Libya and get rid of the African Bank because a gold-backed currency with Africa behind it would have destroyed the toilet paper bankers. They couldn't sell their crap paper when there was a real currency over here in competition with them. So the Zionists of course wanted to get rid of Gaddafi in order to get rid of the African Bank.

And then the third thing was the European Union and the United States. Gaddafi and the country of (Africa?) Libya had been sanctioned for 38 years which had cost them I don't know how much money. In addition to that, Gaddafi was a great big African Union guy and so he had gone to all the African countries and gathered up all the treaties that had been violated by all of the imperialist countries that had been in Africa and they put a dollar number on the violation of all those treaties and a class action suit was brought against the United States and all the European countries that had been in Africa. It was taken to the international court. The total damages asked for was in excess of $7 trillion dollars.

Niall: Wow!

James: And as the attorney said, that lawsuit had legs! So of course Europeans, Greece and France and Germany and all of them were nearly bankrupt anyway; they could afford to pay out anything, so of course they signed on to get rid of Libya because they needed that stopped.

So those are the three main reasons why Libya was the target it was. And this attack was planned years in advance. In fact on our DVD, if you saw the interview with Dennis Kucinich, he outed the planned invasion of Libya. They had been planning it for years and then the war games were played in 2010 for the attack on Libya. It didn't say Libya, but it said "an oil rich north African dictatorship and there'd be 11 military ships taken into the Mediterranean." That's how many went in there. "A no-fly zone would be established. They'd use local dissidents and bring in mercenaries as necessary." That was done. And it was to start, I think, on the 17th of March. It actually started a month before on the 18th of February.

So this was no Arab Spring. This was no revolution. This was an absolute coup d'êtat. It was planned years in advance. It was executed and the fact that they destroyed Libya, good riddance, because as the Zionists say "acceptable collateral damage". And because of the US and NATO, 600,000 Libyan men, women and children have been killed. Two million live in exile. Of the 3 million left in Libya a million of them are homeless. The other 2 million live in fear. The country is owned and operated by Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda and Ansar al-Sharia and now ISIS. And the US is continuing to support ISIS every single day in Libya. They're bringing military, more mercenaries and everything into Libya every day.

JoAnne: There's 128 mass graves in Libya. But let's go back and tell how we got there.

Niall: Yeah.

JoAnne: In April of 2011 we were trying. We were putting out information and we put out some articles...

James: We paid to have them published.

JoAnne: ...about what was happening in Libya. Bishop Martinelli wrote an article in the Catholic Digest. He was the catholic prelate there, that they were bombing hospitals, that women were having miscarriages at an alarming rate, that people were having heart attacks. He wrote a really nice article and we published it. Or we tried to. They wouldn't let us publish it. They said that's not a good enough source they said. Anyway, we were contacted by email by an NGO fact-finding commission group put together by the World News Organization for Peace I think. They have two billion members. They're in Africa and India and all over. They contacted us and asked us if we would please head a fact-finding commission. We don't know how they got our name but we were recommended by somebody.

So we went on that fact-finding commission. We went to England first and were joined by British, French and Italian people and some Pakistanis and people from Kenya. We all went on this fact-finding commission. The no-fly zone was in place so we had to fly into Tunisia and we were driven into Tripoli.

James: That was the first week in May and we ended up being trapped inside Tripoli for 100 days. One of the conditions we laid on the invite was that we'd get to go anywhere in Libya and verify for ourselves if these atrocities were actually being committed by the Libyan government and if they were, we were going to tell the story and if they weren't then we would tell that story. We were given open licence to go any place.

We paid all our own expenses. We rented our own vehicles. We paid our hotel. All that was at our nickel and we ended up being there much longer than we had planned to be. But the road between Tripoli and Tunisia was closed due to bombing shortly after we got into Tripoli. In Tripoli there wasn't anything going on. They bombed every night, but there was no fighting in the streets because the Libyan people, especially those in Tripoli, had no fight with their government at all.

So we were safe inside Tripoli.

JoAnne: We were taken to bomb sites. We interviewed a whole lot of people. Great atrocities, great war crimes were done to this country. You can't imagine what was done to this country. Two hundred and fifty thousand mercenaries were brought in to take over the country. They were mostly radicals. Some were Blackwater. They were from some other countries.

Niall: Two hundred fifty thousand! Where'd they get them from?

James: From all over. The CIA's got training centres everywhere.

JoAnne: A lot of them came from Afghanistan. They'd been fighting the USA the week before and they were brought in by the US and armed by the US. There's even articles written.

James: They were from Somalia, Tunisia.

JoAnne: Yemen, Algeria, Egypt. They came from all those countries, armed, trained and paid mercenaries. And then there were a whole lot of Blackwater there, CIA. They were all there.

James: The first billion dollars was transferred into their central bank. It came from Saudi Arabia and the net amount deposited in that bank was, I think, $935 million. The banks of course had to take out their fees. And that almost billion dollars was dispersed out the first week to mercenaries.

JoAnne: Qatar played a big role in this. The people that were killed in Benghazi that was blamed on Gaddafi - they said Gaddafi's snipers were killing people on the street - those were two people that weren't even Libyans in the street and they were killed by Qatar snipers. That's a known fact. The Libyans all know that. So it was 100 percent false flag. We interviewed some young men who were at the very start of it.

James: The first day of the fighting.

JoAnne: Yeah. How they made them change their Libyan uniform into normal clothes and they were killed and they were filmed and said it was Gaddafi who killed them, that these were rebels.

James: The important part about that is the two entities that were there embedded with the rebels from day one, knowing everything that was going on, was al Arabiya and Al Jazeera TV and they were there with Al-Qaeda from day one. They filmed the Libyan soldiers being required to take off their uniforms and put on streets clothes. They filmed them being massacred by Al-Qaeda and then turned around and put out the news that it was the Libyan soldiers who killed these guys and chopped off their heads, etc.

So the lies from the paid-for media began day one. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya were embedded. Now we know that because the first 13 guys that were captured and killed, one of them, a Libyan, was shot through the head twice and once in the shoulder and they dumped all these bodies on a truck to take them out to the desert. And a couple of miles from where they'd been killed somebody's standing on the side of the road seeing this truckload of bodies go by, saw this one body moving. They stopped the truck. The guy was still alive.

They took him out of the truck, smuggled him up to their apartment and then got him into a hospital in Benghazi. They removed one of the bullets there in his brain. He was in such bad shape they couldn't remove the other one. Al-Qaeda found out he was still alive. They tried to poison him several times while he was in the hospital. The good Libyans got him smuggled out of there, got him in an airplane, got him to Tunisia. There he had the other bullet removed from his brain, had his shoulder rebuilt.

And the second day he arrived back in Libya with his family, we were asked to come over there an interview him. He spoke in a kind of stilted speech but over two or two-and-a-half hour period, sitting under a tree in very nice Zawia, he told us the whole story.

JoAnne: We're probably the only people who have that on tape.

Joe: Who was this guy?

James: He was one of the Libyan soldiers that was over there trying to protect the airport from the rebels in Benghazi on the first day of the uprising.

JoAnne: This was a story they played over and over and over on the media saying "This is what Gaddafi does to people" and it was a complete lie because it was the other way around. And this guy was an eyewitness. He was there and he survived.

James: And the fact that the media was embedded with them from day one on the lies, is the telling tale. But we found out that all the media in Libya, all the media, were agencies from some place and they would ask to go to a military place that had been bombed and then they would call in the air strikes.

JoAnne: They did it at radio stations. They did it a lot of places.

James: And so finally the Libyan government would not allow the media to go out into the field where they could call in strikes because they were all CIA or whatever. When we were asking the Libyan security about that, I said "There's guys over there calling in latitude and longitude on a cell phone." He said "Yeah we know that, but they're here. What are we going to do about it?" And I said "Well y'all need to get on the offensive and you need to have your own public relations campaign to tell the truth."

And this is how faithful the Libyan people are. They said "The truth and our faith will save us."

JoAnne: Our god.

James: I said "Not when you've got this big gorilla blowing you up!" And in that vein, the United States directed 60,000 bombing sorties into Libya from March of 2011 through October of 2011; 60,000 bombing sorties. They dropped more bombs than were dropped in entire WWII on this little country. And they used their kind of nasty bomb.

JoAnne: Depleted uranium.

James: They used depleted uranium shells exclusively. They used fuel air explosives which is a poor man's nuclear weapon. They used that on Banawali and on Sirte because those two towns would not give up under any circumstances. And so the war crimes and the atrocities committed are unbelievable.

JoAnne: They bombed schools. They bombed hospitals. They bombed food supplies. They bombed water supplies. They bombed roads. They bombed houses. They bombed apartment buildings. They bombed date palm orchards.

James: School buses.

JoAnne: You can't imagine. They bombed the children's centre, which was a UNESCO or whatever they call it. It was a building on the antique building list, where they protect these because they're antiques. The Libyan government or people had one of the highest, if not the highest, rate of child survival in the world.

James: One hundred percent inoculation, the best pre-natal and post-natal care in the world. And all those records where in this beautiful antique building. It had been rebuilt. And the UN representative was there in the basement of that building going through all these records for hours. He left and 30 minutes later a bunker buster bomb hit that building and destroyed it completely and all the records gone.
So Libya's ability to prove what a good, humanitarian place it was, was destroyed.

JoAnne: That was the place where they had adults that were hurt or injured and needed rehab and also mentally challenged people. They had all kinds of stuff going on in that building, but they just blew it up. You can't imagine what they were doing. They did their bombings at night to stress out everybody.

James: They started about 2:00 and went until 6:30 in the morning every night.

JoAnne: Yeah, and they brought in a helicopter from time to time and you'd just hear the cannons da-da-da-da-da-da going through the streets, just mow down people when they felt like it.

James: The only thing that was every authorized was a no-fly zone to protect the innocents. And that no-fly zone, according to the US pilots that set it up, after two-and-a-half days they said that the no-fly zone had been completely established and Libya could not get a mosquito in the air. Yet three weeks after the no-fly zone was established Chris Stevens who was the gunrunner to the rebels, delivered 20,000 man pad and shoulder mounted, shoulder-to-air rockets to Al-Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood in Libya. Twenty thousand of them! This is after the no-fly zone had been established. And there was no reason for that at all.

Well, some time later that's what bit Chris Stevens and caused them to have him assassinated because the rest of the countries around Libya complained...

JoAnne: Chad, Niger.

James: ... to NATO and said "Libya's like a sieve and there are weapons coming out of Libya through our country. We can't stop it. Y'all have to do something about it. They're coming out with all kinds of weapons and rockets and everything."

JoAnne: All the weapons that the Libyan army had, had been stolen too.

James: So it was coming out of there. The President of Chad and Niger and all these people said "You've got to stop this!" So there was pressure put on the United States to get these damn rockets back because the rest of the world is saying "We cannot afford to have our commercial liners shot down with all these rockets that you gave to these psychopaths!"

Joe: Do you think that they had established a no-fly zone but they were bringing in anti-aircraft missiles, man pads and stuff, and Chris Steven was part of it. Obviously there was no air threat in Libya, but do you think they were bringing it in so that they could later do what they did, which is basically send them over to the so-called rebels in Syria?

James: Of course! Of course!

JoAnne: Absolutely!

James: Of course because Chris Stevens was funnelling all the weapons to Syria.

JoAnne: He was funnelling mercenaries that were being trained in Libya later too.

James: He was assassinated.

Joe: By who?

James: Well the proof that we brought forward was Morsi was the coordinator. It was Ansar al-Sharia.

JoAnne: And Muslim Brotherhood.

James: Muslim Brotherhood, but I'm pretty sure that everybody in Washington, DC knew about it because here's the thing that we know. Six weeks before it ever happened, we were told by the Libyan tribes that one of the generals that was embedded with Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Qaeda, said "They are planning attacks on US soil in Libya, in Yemen, etc. It's going to happen on 9/11." And we said "What do you mean, US soil?" And he said "You know! US soil here in Libya and in Yemen. Your US soil." Well, that has to be the embassies. And there was a small attack on the Tripoli embassy, but we tried to tell this to everybody we could in Washington, DC.

I've got to tell you, JoAnne's dialing finger is a digit shorter than it used to be from calling every single office, every government agency, every politician in Washington, DC, Texas, Oklahoma, everybody, trying to listen to us, tell our government how wrong-footed we were in supporting Al-Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood. We were so ignorant or stupid or naïve or whatever, we thought we were trying to fight a mutual enemy.

Joe: You thought it was a mistake they were making.

James: Oh yeah! And we figured when the government found out how wrong-footed they were that they would change it. (laughter)

Joe: You guys must have had your eyes opened since then.

JoAnne: Oh yeah, let me tell ya!

James: So when they were telling us about Benghazi we couldn't get anybody to listen to us.

JoAnne: When Benghazi was happening, we're the official spokesperson for the tribes of Libya because they don't have any mouths in the world, really. And they trust us because we sat with them while blood ran in the streets in their country. They called us. The night that it was happening at the embassy, one of our tribal representatives called and he said "It's top urgent. The men that killed your ambassador are at this hospital in Benghazi right now. They're at this hospital. Tell your intelligence people to get the drones over there. Tell them to get somebody over there. This is where they all ran off to. This is where they are. Okay? I have no one to tell." Even the intelligence agencies I was talking to don't answer their phone after 5:00. They're nine-to-five.

So the next call was about two hours later.

James: Yeah, about two hours later.

JoAnne: Two hours later he said "Okay, these guys have now shaved all their beards, put on western clothes and they're in fancy cars heading into Egypt."

James: "Three black SUVs, one was an Audi and two of them were Chevrolets and they're on this road going between Benghazi, they're headed to Cairo. That road's real easy to follow. You can knock them out. These are the guys that killed your ambassador." Of course, nobody here to tell or that would listen. So then later on we found out that the guy that served dinner to Chris Stevens and the ambassador from Turkey that night in that mansion - and incidentally, for the world to know, that was never anything but a safe house.

JoAnne: CIA.

James: It was never a consulate. It was never an embassy. It was never intended to be that.

JoAnne: Never had a US flag on it.

James: Never had a US flag. Not one car that was there ever had an ambassador or political plate. They all had Libyan licence plates.

JoAnne: Libya only has one authorized US embassy. It's in Tripoli.

James: So anybody saying it was an embassy, that was not true. But the night the fighting started, the man that served dinner to Stevens and the representative from Turkey, that "servant", if you would, was one of the spies for the Libyan tribes. And he understands English very well. And the discussion they were having at dinner was Chris Stevens was pleading with this Turkish representative to talk to Erdogan, who is the leader of Turkey, to use his influence to get those 20,000 rockets back. And he said "We will pay handsomely, whatever it takes to get those back. We've got get 'em back. They're causing us political problems."

And the Turkish representative, for all practical purposes, told him to pound sand. They finished dinner. The Turk left that mansion, was put in a fast vehicle, driven to the military airport in Benghazi and flown by military aircraft back to Turkey. When the plane sat down on the ground in Turkey, that's when the three coordinators of the attack on that mansion called in the attack. And we know the names, addresses and phone numbers of those three guys because their families gave them up. They were ashamed of them. And in January, after that attack happened, the US secretary of state's department offered a $10 million reward for the information leading to the arrest of the coordinators of that attack on the house in Benghazi. We offered to give it to them free.

They had not taken it. Trey Gowdy who was supposedly running this big, official investigation didn't want it when we tried giving it to him. Issa who's another big investigator on the other side, Louie Gohmert who's a Texas fire and brimstone guy; all these politicians that claimed to be investigating Benghazi don't want that information. In addition to that, of all the people that were interviewed in Libya, the only ones ever interviewed by anybody in the United States were employees of the US government. Not one non-US government employee was ever interviewed. So the truth about Benghazi is being buried. The politicians here don't want to know about it.

JoAnne: Well we have a tribal leader whose son lived across from that compound and he's an eyewitness to what happened.

James: Right across the street.

JoAnne: He's been interviewed on a couple of radio shows and he said that when they went in there, the guys in the streets were not Libyans. He said they had a different accent, maybe Egyptian, he didn't know. They were dressed in strange clothes. And he was there. He said "Are you here to kill us?" And he said the man told him "No, we're not here to kill Libyans today. We're here to kill Americans."

James: Before that, he was in the equivalent of a convenience store a block away from his house when the first gunshots were fired. He jumped in his car and he drove back to his house and while he was driving back, two cars exited the compound where the mansion was, at high speed.

JoAnne: And he said Chris Stevens wasn't in either one. He said after they blew up the place, they invited him to go in and he said "Those are the people you don't say 'no, I'm not going to go with you'. You just do whatever they tell you because they'll kill you in a minute." He said the looters had been there and it was dark inside. He said there was a body on the floor somewhere. Nobody could see the face or anything. It was dark and they were abusing the body, kicking it and urinating on it and stuff and he said when they finally dragged it out, he could see it was Chris Stevens. He said "But I have to tell you. It's very obvious to him and to other people that Chris Stevens was dead probably long before the actual attack started. So that would be my opinion." That's what he told me. But you have to understand that dead men tell no tales.

James: Evidently they have windows that have been equipped as chutes for people to jump on the chute and they've got cars right there to make an escape in the event of an attack. The fact that Chris Stevens was not the first one down the chutes is a question that needs to be asked. The fact that those two cars left at high speed without him in there, another question to be asked.

Joe: The question here for me then is, is there any suggestion of US participation in the death of Chris Stevens?

James: Well I guess so! How can you come to any other conclusion? The people that could give the order gave an order to stand down and even that they're lying about.

Joe: Well why would the US government want to get rid of Chris Stevens?

James: Dead men tell no tales. Those 20,000 rockets were going to come back and bite the US in the ass.

JoAnne: Chris Stevens was CIA before he became an ambassador.

Joe: Right.

JoAnne: He was the one de-arming Libya from any nuclear weapons they had. He also was the gunrunner for the rebels into Libya. He then became the gunrunner and the mercenary runner into Syria. He was working with Morsi. He was working with Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi was a 30 year friend of Hillary Clinton and her husband.

Joe: Right. So the suggestion then is that Chris Stevens couldn't be trusted.

JoAnne: No. Chris Stevens knew too much. Put someone in a situation and they may talk.

James: But really, a friend of mine is a capital offence attorney and I said "Golly, with your personality, how in the world could you do that?" And she said "It's the easiest kind of law to practice because the key witness is always missing." So in this case they can say whatever they want to about what Chris Stevens did or didn't do and what's he going to do? He can't defend himself.

Can you imagine the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda and ISIS shooting down 20,000 commercial airplanes all over the world?

Niall: Yeah.

JoAnne: I want to get to Tripoli during the war. I'd like to give a little bit more on that if we could.

Joe: Yeah, just as an introduction to that, I just wanted to ask the questions about the figure of 600,000 dead. Is that a direct result of the NATO bombing?

James: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Joe: Because I haven't been able to find any figures anywhere in the mainstream media.

James: There you go. You gave the key word, the mainstream media because they're lying like everything. NATO went in and did an investigation and said there were 60,000 killed or something. No, there were 100,000 the first month! Six hundred thousands is the number of Libyans that are dead and missing. There are 128 mass graves in Libya, mostly full of blacks. There was genocide begun on all black Libyans the first week of this uprising and Al-Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood swore they were going to cleanse the country of all blacks. This came from the tribes. It's real hard for the tribes to give up that number because the families that are still holding out "Well we haven't heard from our son in four years but maybe he's alive."

JoAnne: Also there may be 40,000 at least illegally imprisoned and being tortured, probably 20,000 at least have been tortured to death in Misrata. Their crime is that they did not support the revolution. A lot of the good leaders are there, like Abu Zeyd Dorda, for no reason. He never broke any laws. They threw him out of a third storey window, a 60 year old man, broke both of his legs and never gave him medical care. The war crimes that went on there! They embargoed Tripoli from food, medicine, gasoline and water. You can't do that. That's against all Geneva conventions.

James: In the main prison in Misrata there were so many dead bodies rotting that they had to abandon that place. That's when Doctors Without Borders abandoned them and UNICEF. They said "We can't go in there. They're continuing to torture people to death." There were so many dead and rotting bodies, it was such a health hazard they abandoned that. They think there's as many as 28,000 dead inside that prison.
But we know they were doing that because when we were captured by Al-Qaeda, we were taken to their torture centre which was really the Radisson Hotel. After Tripoli was invaded, one night we were sitting in the hotel with Sheikh Ali Aqwal who is head of all the tribes. He had asked us to come and meet with him and have tea. When we were sitting there another tribal leader brought over a big envelope two or three inches thick and he tapped it and he said "This is our new Constitution". It had been agreed to and written by all the tribes. One hundred percent of the tribes had agreed to that in May, the first time in 100 years where they had 100 percent agreement on anything.

JoAnne: This was to be in compliance with whatever the UN needed.

James: And this was about August 25th I think.

JoAnne: No, about the 20th.

James: The 20th, okay. And as soon as that Constitution was finished, then that would have taken all the wind out of the sails of the US, UN, NATO, etc. because a Constitution would have been brought forward for all Libyans to vote yay or nay. So the invasion of Tripoli started about three days later.

JoAnne: They just started bombing, day and night. And then they started bringing in their black helicopters. I didn't see those. I don't know if they were Apache or what they were, but their cannons blaring and the first hour they killed 1,300 people in the streets and wounded 5,000.

James: Now we were eyewitnesses to that. We were on the 21st floor of the Corinthia Hotel looking out over the Mediterranean and we heard this noise and we could see two of these helicopters coming in real low off the water with their mini-cannons blaring. We could hear the third one and they were firing at everything in the street and as JoAnne said, they killed 1,300 and wounded 5,000 in the first hour of the attack on Tripoli. And they were attacking mainly the area around the port.

JoAnne: They were just attacking civilian people. There wasn't any army there fighting.

James: No, there was no army. Then they started bringing in shiploads of these mercenaries in these little pickup trucks with anti-aircraft guns on the back. They were four-door pickups if you would. All of them had some kind of big armament on the back and they were a stream non-stop coming out of the port, right on the road in front of our hotel non-stop for over a day. Our hotel was the only one that had food and electricity still operating. When we knew we had to get out of there and they knew we were there, there was no attempt by the US government, to help us in any way.

JoAnne: We tried calling the state department day in and day out and there was no reply, nothing.

James: When we requested help we never even got an answer. So finally one day there was fighting inside the hotel. There was gunfire in the lobby. We went up to our room and locked the door. The front desk called and they said "There's an assassin on your floor."

JoAnne: "Don't open your door."

James: "Don't open your door for any reason. Barricade it." So then we knew we had to get out of there. The Russian ambassador called, I guess it was that afternoon and he talked to JoAnne.

JoAnne: He knew us.

James: Yeah, he knew us, and said "I know you're not going to get any help from your government but the governor of Malta is sending over a rescue ship. They've already sent it over."

JoAnne: To pick up the dignitaries.

James: "And I've added your names to the list so you've got two spots on that ship." So we were down in the lobby talking to people there and a good looking tall, blond-headed guy approached us. His name is Tony Hey. He was the FIFA coach from Germany in Libya. And he said "Are you all Americans?" And we said "Yes." "Are you going to get out of here?" We said "We're going to try." He said "Can I go with you?" and we said "Okay".

Next the sister of the President of Mauritania approached us. We had met her. We didn't know who she was except that she was in Libya trying to help the Libyans. She said "Do you have any way to get out of here?" We told her about the rescue ship. She said "Can I go with you?" So we added her to the list. Then a Bahraini prince approached us. He had with him a ne'er-do-well from Texas who was trying to sell guns to anybody that would buy them and we added those two guys. And then one of the workers from the hotel wanted to try to get out too. So we jointly called the ambassador back and said "Can you add five more names to the list?", which he did and confirmed it by fax to the hotel.

JoAnne: The prime minister's aid, the lady, sent me an email and confirmed everybody that was on the list and gave us her phone number so we could call her to find out where the ship was.

James: And then we talked the hotel into loaning us their van and the gal that was running the hotel put two Libyans, one as driver and one as shotgun, to drive us and they were instructed to tell anybody at the Al-Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood checkpoints about every 100 metres up and down all the roads...

JoAnne: It was a complete war zone.

James: ...to tell these Al-Qaeda that we were reporters, newspaper people. She said "That way you won't get any trouble because the reporters have been lying for them forever so they'll probably let you through.

Niall: If you were reporters they knew you'd be on their side.

James: Exactly. So we got to the first one, they tell this story, these guys lowered their AK47 near and let us go to the next one. And they were every hundred metres. And we're trying to keep directions from this aid to the prime minister of Malta about where the ship is and we go 42 miles east on the coast highway. Imagine every little bit Al-Qaeda. We got all the way down there to the end and she said "No, no, no, it's back at the port in Tripoli." So we turned around and went all the way back. When we got back there was nothing in the port. We came back out and we started back again and she said "Oh, it's at a little fishing village about so and so and so and so and the driver said "Yeah, that's right back where we were, 42 miles out there."

So we go all the way back and when we get there we can't find any rescue ship. So we stop to ask one of the guys that looked kind of like an official in one of those stop points and he said "Oh yeah, I'm from this village. We'll go in and we'll help you find it." So they took us into this little village and the streets kept getting smaller and smaller. Then we turned down an alleyway and it was so narrow that you couldn't open the doors and when it finally opens up it's at a mosque. And I've got to tell you, all the atrocities were being committed in mosques.

JoAnne: The rape of the women.

James: When they captured anybody they'd take them to a mosque. They were boiling men in oil and water. They were raping women. They were using the mosques as their centre for abuses. So when we got to this mosque we knew we were finished. Thank god those were friendly people! They offered us water. They tried to help us. We'd been in this van by that time 12 hours.

So they said "No, we'll take you back. We know right where it is." So they took us back a twisty-turny road out of this little town to this fishing camp, if you would. And we're on a satellite phone, talking to Malta, she's telling us where we should be. That's where we are. What she didn't tell us is that Al-Qaeda had fired on the ship and it was moored three miles out and was not allowed to come in and what they'd sent in was two tugboats that were sitting there with their engines running, with all their lights and everything out and they weren't speaking to anybody. We were within a hundred yards of them and we didn't see them and they didn't motion to us. So we finally gave up and went all the way back in. We went into the port of Tripoli again and this time they held us in the port for about an hour and then 50 or more of these little cars came in from all directions, three or four of these bearded bastards - pardon my French - and their AK47s. They pulled up around us, put their guns right in our face and the big, tall, hard-looking guy said "Your game is up. We know who you are." He had a list with our names on it.

They took us then to their torture centre which was the Mahari Radisson Blue Hotel. It had no electricity or lights. They were holding us in the lobby and they were bringing in wounded soldiers. Evidently the emergency electricity was working for the elevator because they'd drag in these wounded soldiers in soldier fatigues, put them on the elevator and they'd end up in the mezzanine a couple of minutes later and then we would start to hear these sounds where they were being tortured literally to death; sounds like no one should ever want to hear in their entire lives. That was happening right over our head. We couldn't see them but we could hear them.

JoAnne: They took our passports. They took everything.

James: This went on for a long time and we knew we were in trouble. They kept bringing more Al-Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood officials in to see the spoils. We were the spoils, you know.

JoAnne: They'd parade them in front of us.

James: And some of them were military, some of them weren't. Every one of them, to the last one, had alcohol on their breath. One guy who spoke real good English came in and started pointing his finger at each one of us. "I know you. You were on the Shatir Show. You worked with Gaddafi's son. You were this," Going around accusing each one of us. Of course I was demanding that they give us our passports back and let us out of there because we were Americans and after all since the Americans had been helping them, they had no reason to be abusing us.

Finally after all of one day, the next morning this big, tall, fat, bald-headed, bearded so-and-so wearing a dress walked in, looked down his nose at us and said something in Arabic and then walked off towards the coffee shop. Of course JoAnne and I didn't know what he'd said but the other people that spoke Arabic all turned real white and got very, very nervous.

JoAnne: They looked like mannequins. They were frozen.

James: Yeah. A little while later they finally got our passports back to us. They had wiped the hard drive on our computer. We now knew that the rescue ship and the two tugboats were sitting there waiting for us and I was bound and determined if we could, to get to that fishing village, get on those tugboats and get to the salvation ship. So when they gave us all the passports and everything back, then another man came in from our hotel and told the driver that he was replacing him as the driver. And we knew this guy. His English was perfect. He was never very friendly but his English was always real good. If we had a problem with our internet or something he was real sharp to fix it.

Well I'm demanding all this stuff and he stops and he says "No, this van is not going there. The van's going back to the Corinthia". And I'm raising hell and he pulls JoAnne off to the side and he said "I know y'all."

JoAnne: He pulled me off to the side because Jimmy was adamant that we were going to go to the ship. He was angry. We'd been held there at gunpoint and threatened and interrogated and all kinds of stuff.

James: I'm a Texan you know!

JoAnne: Anyway, he pulled me off to the side and he said "I need to tell you something." I said okay. I can still remember this like it was yesterday. He said "What your husband didn't understand the Imam say was that when you take him to the rescue ship, they've set up a kill zone two blocks that way under the overpass. You're to be killed, chopped up and burned and it will be blamed on Gaddafi. The reason I'm telling you this is that I've watched you. You've been here three months. All you're trying to do is help the Libyan people and it's not right that this should happen to you so I'm here to try to take you in the other direction. But we need to speak to your husband."

So I went over and I told Jimmy "You need to listen to what this man has to say". Of course when he told him that he said "I guess we're going back to the other hotel."

James: Now this guy was Al-Qaeda. He was their plant inside the hotel. That's why he was never friendly with us, but god touched his heart and had him do that. I'm telling you, if you look cross-eyed at Al-Qaeda or Muslim Brotherhood, they kill you. If they had known that he had told us that, then he'd have been finished. So I said "Okay, we're going to follow you" and he said "Now then, how much money do y'all have because these guys are being paid $2,500 a head to kill you and then another thousand each to chop you up and burn you." So that was seven of us, it would be $3,500 x 7. Nobody had any money but me and I had about $16,900 left. I gave him all that money and I said "Go do what you can."

So he went down there and negotiated for them to keep their mouths shut, really because nobody would know that we were alive or dead unless they said something. And being paid, they knew they were going to get another shot at us because that didn't get us out of Libya, that just got us out of that kill zone that night.

So he came back up, we loaded up the van and he went by back roads, sneaked in and out of alleys and got us back to the Corinthia Hotel. That's where we had started two days before that. It was more than two days. We got back there. The first miracle had delivered us out of the kill zone and then Fatima too said she had been talking with one of the men...

JoAnne: Mohammed.

James: Mohammed was his name and he's Al-Qaeda but she said "He's really not a bad guy. But he's the one that's coordinating the exodus of the refugees from Tripoli to Benghazi...

JoAnne: UN immigration ship.

James: ...UN immigration ship." And she said "He said that he's watched you all and that he would like to help you and he'd like to come meet you." So he came to our hotel and he was really a nice guy. He said "You all are on the list. You're in a lot of trouble, but I know y'all are good people. I'm going to take you in my van to the boat. I'm going to get you through all the stop points. I'm going to get you onto the boat. Then I'm going to have them deliver you to the hotel in Benghazi because if you're taken to one of the refugee camps on the border with Egypt, where all these people are going to end up, your names will be on that list. So I'm going to take you in my van and see that you end up in a hotel in Benghazi. There's a US office there. There's a European Union office there."

Fatima and I both speak Spanish and that's how we were able to communicate. I told Fatima "That's the head of the snake". She said "No, I've been talking to my friends over there and they said all the murderers are over here killing people in Tripoli and that Benghazi's basically empty." So good to his word, he picked us up in his van. He took us through all the checkpoints and got us onto the ship. We'd lost one person, the gal that worked for the hotel. That first trip had been too much for her. She said "I'll stay here rather than try to go with you all again."

So we got on that ship and it was two days of the worst boat ride you can imagine. This was a converted car carrier. It had two bathrooms. There were over 300 people on the ship. There was some out-of-date fruit juice, hot water and mouldy bread. That was all that was on the ship.

JoAnne: A million degrees outside.

James: It was hot. There were no curtains or anything on any of the windows. It was the hottest part of the summer in the Mediterranean and plenty of ways to keep you awake or whatever. You'd drink this fruit juice and then immediately you're doing the green apple quick step. So with 300 people and two bathrooms and people sick and everything else, it was a mess. It was two full days and we finally got to Benghazi. When the ship pulled in they brought dump trucks and threw everybody's luggage in these dump trucks and put people in buses and we took everybody but the six of us, headed them towards Egypt for another 18 or 20 hour tough ride. We were taken to the Tabesti Hotel.

JoAnne: Two UN guys showed up in blue shirts and they said "We're supposed to take care of you guys." So they did.

James: As soon as JoAnne and I got there we went up to the US office in that hotel. The guy that was there barely spoke English. We told him we needed help, that we needed to get out of there and he said "I'm not here to help you. I'm just here to help the rebels." And we said "Yes, but we're US citizens." He said "I can't help you. I only deal with rebels." So he shoved us off. We went downstairs to the European Union office. That guy was much nicer. He said "Gosh I wish I could help you but you have nothing to do with the European Union, therefore bye."

When we got back to the lobby of the hotel the concierge at the hotel had looked at the six of us and decided that we weren't rebels (laughter) and that we needed a little more help. He called the ranking guy with the NTC that was left, that was the National Transitional Council which was the phoney government installed by the US and the number three guy was in Benghazi. The hotel called him and he sent his security guy over there to meet us. That guy didn't speak any English but he was really impressed with the Bahraini prince. So he called his boss and said "Yes, you need to come meet these guys." And when the boss came perfectly dressed, perfect English, very spit and polished if you would, he began talking to us. And in those tribal cultures it's real important that you try to establish some kind of link with somebody in their tribe or whatever.

JoAnne: It's like if you know somebody in somebody's family, they feel more comfortable.

James: And we asked him where he was from. He told us which tribe. Well it just so happened our best friends in Libya were from that same tribe. So I gave him their name and their kids' names and all this stuff and he said "Yes I know them."

JoAnne: "They're okay."

James: "They're okay. They're not of the highest importance to the tribe" but that broke the ice. And he said "How long has it been since y'all had anything to eat?" I guess we were all licking the floor. It had been five days. And it was Ramadan and he said they would have a big buffet here for break-fast, that evening. He said "I can't be with you. I need to be with my family but I'm going to invite you to dinner at this buffet and then I'm leaving my security man with you and I've instructed him to try to get you on the plane that's leaving tonight taking wounded military to Tunisia. And he will stay with you and he'll make his best efforts to get you on that plane."

So we did have break-fast and then the security guy took us to the airport a few hours later and he put us at the front of the line, fighting everybody that was trying to get on that plane, got us our boarding passes, got everything cleared and then took us to the executive lounge at the airport in Benghazi. It was a real nice air-conditioned place, no crowds or anything. He said it was better we were out of sight of everybody trying to get on the plane in case some folks didn't get on that plane, they might not like the fact that we were getting on it and there might be trouble.

JoAnne: It was a plane he said carrying wounded soldiers because they were allowed to fly anywhere they wanted.

James: No-fly zone didn't affect them.

Joe: When you say soldiers, do you mean US-backed rebels.

James: Yes. That was a lie.

JoAnne: That was a lie. There were no wounded soldiers.

James: We didn't see a one. But in this executive lounge, while we were there another 10 or 12 people came in. Most of them were officials of the new government. All of them spoke trash. They were either 20-year employees of World Bank or IMF. None of them had been in Libya in their adult lives. So a bunch of them had been at Langley. They were all shills for the Zionists. And they were talking this trash about how now Libya's really going to be developed and the Libyans were really going to have freedom and there was really going to be democracy.

I asked this one guy who was going to be in charge of all oil and gas. I said "Well what exactly is your plan to go back and put all these wells back into operation that have been shut down? They've got 18 or 19 percent paraffin and when you stop producing them they just plug up." He said "Don't worry about that. We'll take care of that." So nobody had any expertise in anything.
But the long and short...

JoAnne: The plane was supposed to be in at 10:30 and at 2:30 we got on the plane. But it's interesting because there was no tower working there. There was nothing. It was dark in the middle of the night. They walked us out on the tarmac, in the dark. We got on the plane and the plane just took off as soon as we were on.

James: It was the most raggedy-assed old 727 you'd ever seen. It was made when Hitler was a private and all the doors were missing on the overhead storage bins. And when you looked down between your feet at the floor you could see daylight. When the damn thing took off it rattled and rolled and rocked and shook.

JoAnne: The pilot said "We're going to stay low because there's a possibility we'll get shot down if they see us." So we ended up in Tunisia at 4:30 in the morning. From there we didn't get any help from the US at all. There's no help from the US embassy. We called the US embassy and they said "No, call your family and see if they'll give us some money and we'll manage the money for you."

Joe: Well it's exactly the same situation recently in Yemen. There was a bunch of American citizens in Yemen when Saudi and the US basically were bombing the place back to the stone age and American citizens had to appeal to the Russians and the Russians had to get the Americans out because the American officials there were like "Whatever".

JoAnne: Exactly. And if you got money from the they took your passport. You didn't get it back until you paid them back.

Niall: Jeez!

James: And they were going to put us in a hotel that cost a $70 cab ride from that hotel to the airport. We were a $3 cab ride where we were and I said "This doesn't make any sense". So JoAnne's daughter actually bought us a couple of one-way tickets from Tunisia to Rome and then we used our miles with British Airways. Once they figured out how bad of shape we were in, they were really nice. They got us a plane that night. They gave us food vouchers for dinner, put us in a nice hotel in London, got us on a flight out into Houston. When we got to Houston, they let JoAnne go through.

JoAnne: And understand I had an external hard drive that I had secreted on myself and that's the way we got all our information out because Al-Qaeda won't touch a woman and when we were captured by Al-Qaeda...

James: Well unless they're going to rape or kill her.

JoAnne: Unless they're going to rape or kill her. And they didn't touch me. They touched everybody else but not me. And when I got into Houston they let me go right through. I sat there with all the information they were looking for with Jimmy for three hours. The FBI interrogated him. I was sitting down on the luggage waiting for him.

James: They took my bag apart, took the lining out of it. They had three screens. I was seeing the bag with three screens and the guy interrogating me was obviously getting questions from three different groups. He'd ask me a question. I'd answer the guy and he'd type and then they'd throw another question. This went on for three hours. "Who paid for your trip? How did you get there? What were you doing there? Who paid for your trip? How'd you get there?" This went on and on and on for three hours.

Niall: But it sounds like you guys were braced for this kind of interrogation coming back.

JoAnne: We thought they were going to say "Good! We're happy you made it back safe."

James: We were to glad to be alive. Listen, in Rome I was at my nerves' end and the guy from British Airways in their executive lounge of which I was a member, wouldn't let us in there and was going to have us thrown out of the airport. Again, we hadn't eaten in some time and I broke down and I said "Please. Have a little milk of human kindness running through your veins and let us at least turn on our computer here and get on the internet. Let us have a cup of coffee and some orange juice or something! Please help us!" And finally the guy snapped and figured out we weren't bad guys. The Italians had let us through security. I told them what had happened to us. They let us all the way through.

JoAnne: We went the back way through security.

James: Yeah, and finally this guy realized that we really were in trouble and he was a jewel after that. He absolutely ploughed through all the red tape and got us out of there. God bless him. He really helped us.

Joe: So guys, the way you tell that story, with Al-Qaeda and being threatened with being killed and chopped up, you tell in such a matter-of-fact way, but were you not freaking out at any point?

James: Oh hell, I ruined four pair of underwear.

JoAnne: Listen, my memory is so vivid of it, it's like it's yesterday because if you're standing with someone in the dark lobby of a hotel in a corner and the guy says to you "If you go that way you're going to be killed and chopped up and burned" it's like somebody poured cold water on you.

James: You've also got to understand, for 100 days we had seen these atrocities. We'd already been through culture shock.

JoAnne: They chopped up a man right in front of our window.

James: What was in our minds eye was terrible. We had seen it. Yeah, they chopped up a guy right under our hotel window and we saw them cut off his head, both arms, one leg, and their knife got dull and couldn't chop his other leg off. And then the next morning there were 38 heads lined up above his. We saw this with our own eyes. We're witnesses.

JoAnne: What's really unbelievable is how evil those people are that we were funding and arming and training. Who does things like this?!

Joe: So the consensus is forget ISIS. The real head choppers is the US government.

JoAnne: Oh yeah!

James: CIA and Mossad.

JoAnne: We were told at one point in time, any time you see someone's head chopped off, that's CIA method.

James: And you go back in history and look at all the times this has taken place, a lot of the retired CIA now are outing them. They said "This is what we do. This is how we train. This is psychological warfare. We make it so bad for the people of those countries that they give up without a fight. The more heinous the crimes, the quicker they give up."

JoAnne: The story continues on forever, but let me tell you that after we got back we tried to rebuild our business. We really thought we were just going to go back to our business. Little did we know that we'd been targeted and soft-killed and destroyed. There was not going to be anymore business for us because no matter what we tried to do, it was just turned down. I called Washington, DC so many times to try to talk to them about what was going on in Libya and give them information.

Tara Dahl who was the aid to Michele Bachman called me back. She said she was very interested in what we had to say. There's a whole story behind her too. She turned out to be CIA. She's the one that brought all the intelligence into our house. She introduced me to the first guy out in California.

James: He was a police detective on loan to the FBI terrorist task force. He'd been all over the world.

JoAnne: Yeah, and he said "Your story is unbelievable. You should have been debriefed immediately when you got back and you need to be debriefed." So he called the DIA who sent in one of their agents.

James: Eric Maddox.

JoAnne: Eric Maddox who came to our house. He identified himself as Kevin Davis to us, but his real name is Eric Maddox. And he came many times to our house.

James: What was Tim's name?

JoAnne: Tim Morant.

James: Tim Morant was his name, San Francisco detective, piece of garbage. Then Eric Maddox who gave us a false name. You don't come into somebody's home who's trying to help your government and give them a false name and play this game. Well that's what he did and I'm not happy about that.

JoAnne: What he wanted to do was extract a lot of our information from us.

James: They kept trying to get JoAnne's hard drive.

JoAnne: Yeah, they really wanted that. He said "I want you to print it all out. If I pay for it will you print it all out?" I said "I can't print it out. A lot of it's video," And I didn't give it to him anyway. But he interviewed some of the tribes on Skype.

James: In our home. We linked up Skype with them.

JoAnne: They gave us a test of 14 questions for the tribes, they said "Because nobody in our history of the military we've never had anybody infiltrate into the tribes, of any country." He said "And I think this is a mistake." That's what he told us. He said "We don't know how to do it. We can't get into the tribes."

James: Yeah, prove that you're really talking to the tribes.

JoAnne: Yeah, so they gave us 14 questions and we had those questions answered in 24 hours by the tribes. And he said "My handlers are blown away. Nobody has this kind of information. Nobody can pick up a phone and get information like you can." But they were not willing to do anything to help us, to work with us or anything. They became vacuum cleaners. They were just syphoning information.

James: They would not help the Libyans either.

JoAnne: They would not help the Libyans. The Libyans told him on the phone "I have the head of all the Al-Qaeda guys. If you will send your snipers in or your drones, we can get rid of all the heads." "Ah, we can't do that." He said "Okay, well then just send us the weapons and we'll take care of it ourselves." And they said "It's against the United States law to supply weapons to anybody.

Niall: Yeah right!

JoAnne: It just became a joke.

James: And here's something else. We gave them latitude and longitude of where the Al-Qaeda leaders spent the night. We gave them latitude and longitude of where they had dug holes and buried all their weapons stores. We gave them latitude and longitude of where their training centres were. In fact the one that was the most damning is they had a brand new mega-training centre out in the Derna area, far east Libya and it had 1,400 trainees there all the time. They were rotating them. Sometimes there were 4,000 or 5,000.

JoAnne: Yeah, going out into Syria.

James: This is their brand new centre. So we gave that information to Eric Maddox. It had never been given to anybody anywhere. The tribe's spies gave it to the tribal leaders. The tribal leaders gave it to us. We gave it to Eric Maddox, pinpointed. Four days later an alert comes that they're to evacuate that training centre, take the weapons they can carry with them, sell the other ones locally. And when that happened we told Eric Maddox "How in the hell did this happen?! We give it to you and instead of you all going after that camp, somebody in the government told them what happened." And this came from Eric Maddox: "The defence intelligence agency said the agenda in the United States is being set by Muslim Brotherhood.

JoAnne: He said "Well I've met a lot of Muslim Brotherhood. They're pretty nice guys. They're our translators." So the official translators for the US intelligence is Muslim Brotherhood.

Niall: It sounds like Maddox took what you said and warned...

James: Sure he did!!

Niall: Yeah.

James: Not him personally. He probably ran it up the...

JoAnne: He said "Do you think you've given me that information caused that to happen?" I said "Do you think?!?"

James: Yeah, I'm sure it ended up in the offices at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Niall: Sure.

James: And the Muslim Brotherhood guy there told them to leave.

JoAnne: So the next thing, I get a call from Tara Dahl and she said that the Blaze, Glenn Beck's organization, a guy named Joe Wiesel would like to speak to me and they'd like to do a two-hour documentary on our story because nobody escapes from Al-Qaeda, nobody, and lives to tell about it. So Joe Wiesel called me and made the point. He was real interested in talking to us. Three days later he showed up with his producers, I guess, to interview us and he said he brought security for us because he said "You're in more trouble from this government than you ever were from...

James: More danger.

JoAnne: ... "more danger than you ever were from Al-Qaeda" and he said "I brought a lady here. She's someone I worked with and she's going to be your..."

James: Interface for security was going to set up protocols for internet and everything and lay the protection around us. Her name is Niki Baracoll, maybe. That's the name she gave.

JoAnne: Yeah, so we talked to them for six hours, they took our story, said it's a huge story and Glenn will want to have you on his show at least twice.

James: And as they were leaving the wanted our entire hard drive. JoAnne gave them about 25 gigabytes of stuff that wasn't new. And they were going to come back three days later with their films crews. We hadn't heard from them in two days so JoAnne called Wiesel, and that's a good name for him, and instead of him calling back this Niki Baracoll called back. She said "I've killed this project because y'all are already talking to the intelligence agencies. You need to continue doing that. Also you need to forget about Libya and start your life over today or you won't have a life." And I said "That sounds like a threat." She raised her voice and she said "You stand down and do exactly what I'm telling you or you won't have a life!!"

Niall: And that's coming from a journalist?

James: No, no, no. This is CIA.

JoAnne: She was CIA.

James: And this is also the gal that told us...

JoAnne: That we were targeted.

James: ...that when we came into Houston, JoAnne and I had been targeted, we had been blacklisted and we had been soft-killed.

JoAnne: She said that that was when we got here.

James: And she said "That's why you've not had any business opportunities. That's why all your bank accounts have been drained. That's why everything has happened to you because you've been soft-killed." And she said "You should be happy all they did was soft-kill you." And I said "Well what's worse than that?" And she said "They do a terminal kill and that's when you just disappear and nobody ever hears from you again." And I said "So we're supposed to be happy and thankful that we've only been soft-killed?"

By that time we had sold everything we owned, sold my antique car collection, our houses, everything. We'd liquidated all our assets. We had taken our 30 scientists and given them all a nice stipend because it wasn't their fault we went to Libya. If we had known we were going to be soft-killed I would have given them half as much. They would have been happy and we could have had enough of a nest egg to really start over. But hell, our business is great, our technology's great. We were going to start over again immediately. It didn't happen.

JoAnne: So Glenn Beck has been compromised. That was really obvious.

Joe: He's just a shill.

JoAnne: No kidding! But Dr. Jerome Corsi has been writing articles with our information for over two years now.

James: He's World Net Daily. He's written 40 articles based on information we've provided him.

JoAnne: Three of the documents we brought forward have been read into the Congressional Record. The big one is the one came of Libyan security where Morsi was involved with the attack on Chris Stevens, in funding and organizing it. And there's another document that was a big one from the US embassy. When Egypt took their country back from the Muslim Brotherhood, when they threw Morsi out, they went into Morsi's desk and found a bunch of documents. One of them was a document from the US embassy where Muslim Brotherhood leaders had gone in and picked up cash, anywhere from $500,000 to $850,000 dollars in cash and signed their names for the money and we have that list.

James: Seventeen or 18 of them, and those guys were all arrested after that on charges of being spies for the United States. They just finished the trials. Morsi and three or four of the top Muslim Brotherhood leaders in Egypt have been sentenced to death and the rest of them on our list that we provided them, they're going to be in prison for the rest of their lives. So the information that the tribes have provided us has been actionable intelligence according to the agencies.

JoAnne: I'm very proud of Egypt. They put Obama and Hillary Clinton up on charges of terrorism at the international court for what they did to Egypt and they have the proof. Of course it may never be heard but at least they did something.

Joe: Right. You're talking there about the Egyptian so-called revolution as well?

James: Yeah, that was again no revolution. That was another false flag operation.

JoAnne: Yeah, it's when the Egyptians took to the streets, 30 million of them, to throw Morsi out. That's when General Asisi stepped forward and he said "I asked my people 'what do you want me to do' because I work for the Egyptian people and they said 'we don't want him as our President. He's already torn up the constitution. Throw him out'." So he said he went up and asked him to step down. He wouldn't step down so they marched him out.

James: They arrested him. Also, in his private safe they found documents where Obama had gifted $ billion, that's with a "B", dollars to Muslim Brotherhood so they could buy half the Sinai Peninsula so that the Muslim Brotherhood could have a homeland.

Joe: So what's going on in Libya today?

JoAnne: It is a failed state right now.

James: They've used so much depleted uranium that the incidents of...

JoAnne: Birth defects.

James: ...babies with birth defects that are so bad they die the first day, is 25 percent. Twenty-five percent of all babies born now in Libya die the first day because of the depleted uranium. The incidents of heart attacks, diabetes, 405 percent increases. Every place in the country that you look at, all the kids and the dogs glow in the dark from all the uranium. The country's destroyed. They have so much oil production, so much capacity and so few people, that that's still a place that the Zionists hope to maintain so they'll have an oil and gas supply.

JoAnne: We're not talking about the regular Jews, we're talking about the Zionists.

James: The Zionists.

JoAnne: That's different.

James: And they are trying like hell to hang onto that. So the United States, every day, sends in weapons and mercenaries into Libya, they're ISIS.

JoAnne: They're funding them through Turkey. In fact the Libyan army fired on a Turkish ship trying to go into Darnah recently. And the Greeks captured one with all these weapons on it, going into Libya. But the tribal military council is working with the Libyan army to take their country back. They're doing the best they can. Until a few months ago the UN still had an embargo on the Libyan army receiving any weapons. It's okay for ISIS to receive them.

James: ISIS is a corporation started in Arizona by John McCain and 60 other political leaders from all over the world.

Joe: Oh yeah?

James: So that's who ISIS is. Last week the President of the United States went to Congress and asked for funding for ISIS, the equivalent of social security and health care and supplying them with air conditioners and all the benefits of social security. He's asked that of the Congress to give it to ISIS. That's the President of the United States.

JoAnne: Libya has two million in exile right now, still and these people suffer every day. There's nothing for them. They're in Tunisia and Egypt and around, unless they had some funds or family to help them, they're really suffering.

Niall: Are these the people who are fleeing in ships to Europe?

JoAnne: No. Those are immigrants from Africa. Those aren't Libyans. I would say 99 percent are not Libyans.

James: The flight out of Africa into Europe had been going on forever and really Libya had been the buffer. Libya employed about two-and-a-half million foreigners as workers in Libya and they really were a buffer. That arrangement had been made and maintained by Gaddafi forever. Of course when Gaddafi and the Libyan government went away then those migrants were now just trying...

JoAnne: Just a sieve. They just continued to come.

Joe: Yeah, it's interesting that a little bit of truth just eked out recently in the mainstream even, from a political level where the Italian prime minister was complaining about the immigrants from Africa coming in, because a lot of them were coming into Italy. And he said that if the EU doesn't do something about this then Italy will take its own actually basically and there's going to be a problem for Europe. He went as far as saying that this problem is really caused by the EU participation in the bombing of Libya four years ago. He came out and said that.

JoAnne: That's true. It's pretty sad what they did. Where are they protecting the civilians now? Because there are people being tortured and killed in Libya every day. The cities of black people that were razed, four or five of them are just gone, those people are all homeless.

James: In those 128 mass graves, most of those people are black. We went to all the black leaders here in the United States, and said "You should rise up against this happening." None of them heeded that. None of them did anything about it. You know, it's a real travesty because the media owns...

JoAnne: Libya has one elected parliament right now. It's in Tobruk and the reason it's in Tobruk is because the puppet government that was set up by the US was full of criminals and ne'er-do-wells, the Libyan people couldn't control anything for two years. They had no control over it. They used militias roaming the streets like gangs with guns to try to control things. Of course they were all thieves and rapers and who knows what. When they had an election, because it was demanded by the UN - there has to be an election in Libya because we put democracy in there - all the Muslim Brotherhood were voted out, every single one of them. There was not one radical elected even though half the people of Libya didn't even get to vote because they were outside the country.

Well, they didn't accept that in Tripoli. They guy who's the criminal leader there said "Well I don't accept that."

James: Because he's best buddies with John McCain.

JoAnne: Yeah.

James: And Obama.

JoAnne: Yeah, so he said "You can come here." They started blowing up the houses of the people who were elected and kidnapping their wives and shooting them. So they had to take their parliament to Tobruk to the other side of the country, on the east side of Libya. So they claim they're still a government in Tripoli. They're not! The only government is in Tobruk and it's still a very weak government because it's hampered by all the fighting that's going on all the time.

James: And the ambassador from the United States, Deborah Jones, the only person she likes to meet with is Al-Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood.

JoAnne: The big Misrata militia, Libya Dawn they call themselves, was just full of Muslim Brotherhood and Ansar al-Sharia, the people she works with all the time.

James: And she's been seen holding hands with them, which is a real obscene event for a woman that's not married to a man. Also the US found their way clear to appoint an ambassador for Libya, this is a Libyan ambassador to the UN, they appointed this Spanish guy who has nothing to do with Libya and he's a big-time Zionist.

JoAnne: He's also Muslim Brotherhood.

James: He's Muslim Brotherhood also.

Joe: The reason the US ambassador to Libya is only shaking hands with Al-Qaeda is because Al-Qaeda are the only ones who are going to be open to giving all of Libya's oil resources to US companies or corporations, right?

James: Sure. That's a big part of it. Everybody looks at the oil but I gave you the three reasons to blow up Libya.

JoAnne: But they want Libya to stabilize. If the tribes get back in control of Libya then they are back to the way they were in with Gaddafi because that's the people of Libya.

James: And you can't have a country where the people were enjoying the wealth of the country like what happened in Libya because that made the Zionist plan to dominate everybody not work.

Joe: Right. You can't have true democracy is what you're saying.

James: Yeah.

JoAnne: Gaddafi made Libya a very strong, strong country, a strong resource.

James: Not for fighting. Internally it was real strong and well supported by the people.

Joe: That's the problem and one of the real tragedies of it, as you mentioned, was when you tried to get the tribes to rise up and do something about it, it's hard to get a peace-loving people to fight against this kind of psychopathy and head choppers.

James: But it finally happened. Let me tell you what else they did. This was after 9/11. The tribes put forward an official plea and offer to the United States government, Congress and everybody. They said "If you will just stop supporting Al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood and Ansar al-Sharia in our country, then we the tribes of Libya will clean our country of all these radical Islamists and then we will join hands with the other tribes in all the other countries and rid the world of radical Islam." They made the official offer. Never responded to by anybody.

Joe: Right. It says it all, really.

Niall: Because that's never what the US government wanted.

James: Never. But the US government has shunned everybody. The last Pope, three times made an appeal to the NATO and UN to stop bombing Libya, along with Cardinal Turkson and another monsignor. The three of them would go form a peace committee in Libya and they would mediate the negotiations for peace between the fighting factions in Libya. Three times! One time to the UN and twice to NATO. The Pope made that offer. They never responded to his offer.

So they're not just thumbing their noses at the Libyans, they're thumbing their noses at everybody because the Zionists support this 85 individuals that own 75 percent of everything. So we're all their chattel, we're all their cattle, we're all their slaves and how can we possibly buck their system. They tell us what to do and we're supposed to do it.

JoAnne: When we were there during the war, they had a lot of rallies for their government. And on July 1st, they had 2 million people show up in the Green Square in Tripoli. And they had these events all over Libya at that point in time with the Green flags, supporting their government. We were there. I have the videos of us being there talking to those people. I have all of it. This was never reported by the mainstream media. They tried to say "Oh 2,000 people showed up or 1,000 people showed up, but when we were getting captured by Al-Qaeda at the very end of our stay in Tripoli, they took British reporters and had them interrogate us. Those guys hated it. They said "We're not happy about this but we have to do it because they're making me''.

James: Right before we were to be killed, they had a British film crew come in and record each one of us individually asking "Are you okay? Have you been abused? Are you in good shape?" because if we were dead they were going to prove that it wasn't them that did it.

JoAnne: But those guys told us "I hate this. These guys are dangerous." But he told me "You see this green square over here where they have all these rallies and stuff? They have an exact mock-up in Qatar because I've been there and that's where they film where the rebels are all shouting 'down with Gaddafi'..."

James: Having events.

JoAnne: "...because that never happen in Libya, ever!"

Joe: Wow!

Niall: The whole campaign, even before the actual fighting broke out, something just smelled off. When they were showing images of protestors allegedly...

Joe: Well the claim that Gaddafi was bombing his own people was just a carbon copy of what they claimed about Iraq.

JoAnne: Yeah.

Joe: And that had already been discredited by then, 2011.

JoAnne: Yeah.

Joe: The whole goddamn world knew that the west had lied to us about Iraq. But apparently people have got really short memories.

James: Oh yeah.

Joe: As soon as they run the same story for Gaddafi and Libya, it was like "Oh, he's an evil man." I just really lose faith with the ordinary person.

JoAnne: Yeah. "If the mainstream media reports it I guess it's true."

James: We could not imagine how in the hell South Africa and these other countries join hands to attack Libya. And so while we were there, near the end of August, the plenipotentiary ambassador to South Africa, H.E. Dangor ended up in our hotel because all his security crew and everybody left. So we had an opportunity to have tea with him quite a few times, had some long discussions and one time I asked him why in the hell did South Africa join hands to go after Libya because you all had always had such a good working relationship. He said "We had no choice. Your secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, approached our government and said 'if you don't join hands with us and agree to go after Libya, then you'll have rebels in your back yard tomorrow'."

Niall: Right.

James: He said "It's like the woman had a whole closet full of rebels she could drop down any place.

Joe: That's a threat.

James: Now then, I know that that's true because we're very, very close to some third-echelon royal family in Kuwait and in the early days of the fighting we were trying to get the royal family Kuwait to bring in some rescue equipment for Libya and they agreed to do it and when they tried to pass the money on for that $50 million worth of humanitarian aid, the secretary of state told them "Pass that on to Qatar. Qatar's handling all that.

JoAnne: Hillary Clinton.

James: This was Hillary Clinton. And she said "And since you're so interested in Libya, then you can just sign on to be on our side going after Libya." And they said "Well we're really not interested in doing that." And she said "If you don't do it you're going to have rebels in your back yard." So she made exactly the same threat to two different sources that we verified ourselves. So the thing that's different about us, this information we have is not third-hand. We are eyewitnesses to the atrocities. We're eyewitnesses to what happened in Libya. We weren't supposed to be there. And then after they found out we were there we weren't supposed to be out of there. This guy from the defence intelligence once told us "Y'all need to be written up in the Guiness records because nobody gets out of Al-Qaeda's hands alive''.

Then a couple of weeks later he said to us "You know y'all weren't supposed to ever get out of North Africa." So we're alive. We've had divine intervention that has saved our lives. Our lord has protected us. You cannot imagine. Since we've been here, one time they planted drugs in our car. We were giving a seminar for the John Birch Society in Houston and we never saw the drugs, but we decided to go have the oil changed in our car and our tires rotated. And that night when we were driving from Houston, back east, the radar guns and two sets of Highway Patrol followed us. And then every 10 miles those two would pull off and another two would pull on. Did they put the radar gun on our bumper?

Finally we got out in the middle of nowhere and they pulled us over and they wanted to search the car and I said "No. I'm not going to let you search the car." And they said "We're taking the drug dog and if the dog marks for drugs then you're under arrest. We'll tear your car apart to find them." The dog went around the car three times, didn't mark, so the guy went to the back window which is real unusual, and started tapping the back window of our Sequoia. And about the 15th time he tapped and yanked on the chain of the dog, the dog went up and touched his hand and he said "He's marked for drugs. You're under arrest."

And they started looking in the car, but not much, kind of a cursory examination. But the whole time he one of these throw-away flip phones in his ear. The whole time. This is a Texas Highway Patrolman with a phone in his ear. You can't do any kind of searching with one hand. And after about an hour he and the other highway patroller had been under the car 15 times each. They were digging around this one corner of the car. They had JoAnne and I separated about 50 feet on the other side of the bar ditch. I kind of sneaked over to her and said "JoAnne, can you slip down there and hear what that guy's saying? He's got a phone in his ear."

She got down there and when she got back she said "He's saying 'I'm there! That's where I'm looking!'" So somebody was directing him where to look. And 2½ hour later, after they had been under the car so many times their uniform was black from crawling on their backs looking up underneath the frame.

JoAnne: He had a burner phone.

James: That's what I'm talking about. So they finally let us go. They said "Well there have been drugs in this car. The dog marked for it." And I said "I don't guess so" because believe me with all the hell we've been through, we don't speed. We never did any drugs anyhow, but we wouldn't drink a cup of wine and get in a car. And so I said "That's just not true."

In thinking back, the only thing that could have happened was that they planted the drugs, probably when we were at the John Birch Society giving this seminar. You never know what angels look like. When we had the oil changed, the guy that did it had tattoos from the back of his fingers all the way up both arms. And when he was underneath there changing the oil and changing the tires he probably found something up underneath the frame, took it out and looked at it and said "Well hell! This guy kind of looks like Santa Claus. I'm taking this home with me." (laughter)

Joe: It was a tip.

James: So that foiled them. They've tried every nasty thing in the world to arrest us so they can turn us into their stool pigeons because we're an asset to them. As JoAnne said, the only information they get about what the tribes are doing come from us. So we're an asset to them. I think that's why they haven't killed us. They've threatened us four times but they haven't killed us because I think they're getting information from us.

JoAnne: The last time they got really angry at us. They called us a year ago. Nine months after we put our DVD out, the intelligence agency seemed to find it somewhere. I don't know how it took them so long.

James: They're real quick you know.

JoAnne: But he said "We had a big meeting of all of our intelligence agencies in Washington, DC and we decided you're really bad people."

James: "You're the worst of the worst."

JoAnne: "You put our names out. You caused us to have problems now. Our names are out there and I have to sleep with my gun now." And I said "Well you know what? You signed on for it. I didn't." I told the guy when he came into my house "You want me to do anything with you guys then you need to train us and pay us because we're not intelligence people." "Oh no, we don't do that. We're not interested in that." And he said "Well you know better than to put out Michele Bachmann's name." I said "Michele Bachmann is a congressman. There's no secret about her!"

James: There is a secret about her and Tara Dahl is one of their up-and-coming spies and they were real pissed that we put her name down. And Tim Morant.

JoAnne: Yeah, she had contact with the tribes through us and she's tried to contact them a bunch of times since then and they won't speak to her. She's over there in Egypt from time-to-time wanting to talk to them.

James: But to satisfy everybody in your audience, know that what we've said is 100 percent accurate, as wild as it sounds. We cornered Congressman Pete Sessions in November of 2014 and after we talked to him for 20 minutes he verified through the defence intelligence agency and then called the head of the DIA in his office in Washington, DC. When he called us back 10 days later he said "I've talked to the head of the DIA and I want you to know he said everything you told me..."

JoAnne: And he repeated that.

James: He said "Everything you told me, blacklists, soft-kill, etc. is all true. They have ruined you. They've admitted to it. But also the guy admitted he didn't know how two people sitting in the woodlands of Texas could pick up their phone and call anywhere in the world and get actionable intelligence like you two could." And Pete said "I asked him 'then why didn't you make these two people your best friends instead of attacking them?'" And he said the guy had no answer. That wasn't 2014, that was 2013, pardon me.

So we've been validated 100 percent by the top of the worst criminal cabal of intelligence in the world, the Defence Intelligence Agency, in being completely accurate.

JoAnne: He said our intelligence was certified as 100 percent correct. He said that's unusual but that they did say that they'd hired you and that you'd decided you didn't want to work for them anymore. And I said "They never hired us." Pete said "You never were paid by them?" I said "No. Ask them to show you a paycheque, a paystub. I was never paid by them." He said "Okay, this happens some times. I have to go back." It was kind of dropped then. He went back I'm sure but they tried to say "Oh that was a mistake. Somebody told us wrong." They dance around in their story.

Joe: I think the reason that they didn't make friends with you is because of the kind of stuff you're putting out there, which is exposing exactly what they're doing.

JoAnne: But we hadn't put anything out at that point.

Joe: You hadn't?

JoAnne: No.

James: We didn't go public until...

JoAnne: We didn't go public until we were threatened.

James: ...until Niki Baracoll threatened to kill us.

JoAnne: We never put out anything.

James: That's when we started going public and that was two years ago in May.

Joe: Who threatened to kill you?

James: Niki Baracoll, the CIA agent that was brought in by Glenn Beck's organization into our house.

JoAnne: That's when we went public.

James: That was the first time they threatened us.

JoAnne: That was May of 2013.

James: They threatened us one time. Somebody from the United States called our Libyans and said "You better tell your friends in the United States to shut up or they'll disappear."

Niall: Hold on. Let's just spell this out for our listeners here. Someone in The Blaze, which is Glenn Beck's organization, threatened to kill you unless you shut up.

JoAnne: She wasn't in The Blaze.

James: She was the security person brought into our home by The Blaze.

Niall: Okay. She tagged along.

James: Yeah.

JoAnne: They invited her.

James: They invited her and she was supposed to put protection up for us because she told us that we were in danger of this government. Wiesel, the head of The Blaze, told us we were in more danger from the United States government than we ever were while we were in the hands of Al-Qaeda and that was confirmed by Niki Baracoll. Niki Baracoll confirmed that we had been targeted when we came back into Houston after getting out of Al-Qaeda's hands. She verified that we had been blacklisted and soft-killed, which we did not know until that time.

I couldn't imagine why we couldn't get our business growing. We've got a great product, got a great business. We're old racehorses in the business world. When we couldn't start our own business, I was sending out 30 resumes a day and JoAnne was sending out 20. We never got an interview from anybody. I went to some head hunters and was offered three jobs and then within a week the jobs were pulled and the head hunters said "Well, we can't talk to you. We need to take care of our clients." One church volunteered to help us one time when we were so poor we couldn't pay attention. They were going to pay our rent. We'd sold the house in the Woodlands with the consideration that we would rent it back so we didn't have to move everything out. We'd already sold the houses in Portland and Arizona. We move everything to this little house in the Woodlands. So the buyer agree to let us rent it and then a few months later all of a sudden the agency that was acting as the leasing agent for the investor came to us and said "If you're three days late we're throwing you out!" You can't do that in Texas. But we had no option with that.

So when rent was due we had to pay it and when we couldn't pay it one of the churches volunteered to help. And it's a big church, $33 million church, $3 million excess budget, called the Crossroads Baptist Church. When it came time for the rent to be paid, they weren't around. So I sold some irreplaceable, antique car repair tools for ten cents on the dollar, paid our rent, and then a few days later we got to that church. They never would answer our calls. We finally went there and a woman that was a volunteer receptionist that we had met several times said "Oh I'm so sorry about what happened to you all. We're not even supposed to talk to you. The government came here and told us if we helped you that they would cause a complete audit of the church for the last five-to-seven years and it would cost us at least $500,000. We don't know you that well. We can't afford it, therefore we can't talk to you. Bye."

Joe: Wow!

Niall: How are you guys getting by at the moment?

James: We don't. We sell our DVDs. People make little donations. The DVD is $15 plus foreign shipping is another $10. That helps us survive. We are homeless. We are living in a home that an older couple has allowed us to stay in. It's their lake home that they haven't used in years. It's run down, but it's got a dry roof. So we're here. We're out in the middle of nowhere. The agencies like that because any time we move it's easy to spot us.

JoAnne: People can get our DVD at our website which is libyanwarthetruth.com. I wanted to say that again so people understand.

James: They can make a donation, they can buy our DVD, but for sure keep us in your prayers because god has been our protector and we've had the worst in the world coming after us non-stop. We're alive and we're kicking. The thing they don't understand is really if they caused us to have an untimely demise tomorrow, we would be in a better place. And they don't understand that. So they can't threaten us with death because they've taken everything that we had in this world away from us, and we were very, very substantial people. And the thing is, for your audience, if it can happen to us, it can happen to anybody.

Joe: Right.

Niall: Well these people are godless so I think it's not so much that, that concerns them, rather that you've kept yourselves alive by naming names and speaking the truth. You've got a bit of light on you now.

JoAnne: Yeah, that's true.

Niall: That's got you this far. But are you still in danger? Are you being watched?

James: Sure we are!

Niall: How can you live in that kind of atmosphere? Have you considered leaving the US?

James: Well we don't have the money to go any place and they wouldn't let us out anyhow. We were on the no-fly list until Pete Sessions got us off that. We didn't know we were on the no-fly list. But listen, we don't have money to do anything. We live literally hand-to-mouth. And we cannot get a job. Nobody can give us any kind of substantive help.

JoAnne: We get most of our help through donations and selling our DVD. Right now that pays our utilities, a little bit of gas for our car and our food.

James: We literally live on a few hundred dollars a month.

JoAnne: But I have hope. I really do. I believe that when this regime changes that is in this country - more and more people are finding out the truth about Libya every day. So pretty soon we're not going to even be a threat because everybody's going to know it, I hope. Most people in Europe really know it.

Joe: I think one of the things that might protect you is the fact that Libya is just one part of the kind of thing they're doing. It could even be much worse, what they're doing with ISIS and in different parts of the world. These kind of people in power have spread themselves around so much and they've got so many fingers in their dirty pies, that Libya's...

Niall: Just one more.

Joe: ...it's one more. It's still ongoing but the Libya attack was four years ago and now they've moved on. So that might be a kind of protection for you guys. But I don't know. Let me ask a question: If you knew that what has happened in the past few years was going to happen, would you still have gone public?

James: Oh yeah!! Let me tell you why. The Libyan people don't deserve this and the problem is, it's not just Libya. This is a worldwide problem.

JoAnne: Iraq, Syria.

James: There have been so many false flag operations. Listen, we have gotten our multiple PhD in the dirty tricks of the Zionists and the oligarchs. And they're a godless bunch and they are blowing up countries every day. There's false flags every day and either you can go bury your head in the sand and say "Everything's fine. I'm Pollyanna" or else you wake up and, like JoAnne and I, take it as our obligation to try to help the world know what's happened because we are firsthand eyewitnesses. We were put there for a purpose and god is protecting us and we're telling the truth. And the people that hear us hopefully will step back and take a look at what's going on and say "the Congress and the government of the United States is criminal." They don't do anything for the people of the United States. It doesn't make any sense. They've got a three-to-five percent approval rating. There's a reason for that. What's wrong with our government? What can we do about it? JoAnne and I are both good people. We funded our own non-profit activities forever. We didn't live a very exorbitant lifestyle. We really ploughed everything back into our business. We're good folks. If they can do that to us, then they can do it to anybody. And the fact that we're speaking the truth is because we have the moral obligation to do that.

JoAnne: For me, say you were on the street or in a mall or somewhere and you saw a person beating, kicking or hurting a child, would you step up or would you just turn around and walk away? Because it makes you compliant when you do that.

Niall: Yeah.

JoAnne: People have to stand up for humanity. Lives mean something. My daughter said to me "Why don't you just tell them you won't say anything and maybe they'll leave you alone?" I said, "Okay, picture this. I see a mafia guy kill somebody and he sees me. I tell him 'I promise I won't say anything.' You think he's going to let me live?"

Niall: Right.

JoAnne: Not ever. It's the same thing happened to Chris Stevens. You either stand up for what's the truth and say it and you take your lumps, because you happened to be there and you are an eyewitness, or you live with your head in the sand and you're abused every day.

James: We're on a dirt road for about a mile until you get to hard surface, and about six-and-a-half months ago as soon as we hit the hard surface road, two black SUVs stopped us. They put JoAnne in one, me in the other and we drove for an hour-and-a-half with blacked out windows. We didn't know where we were going. Went into an underground parking building. They took us up an elevator and went into some rooms with no pictures or windows or anything, with metal furniture and they proceeded to interrogate us. It was a total of 32½ hours from the time they picked us up until they took us back. And the whole time they're interrogating us, they never showed us a credential or ID. "We don't have to do that. We can pick you up any time we want to. We can make you disappear if we want to." All these threats and it kept on and kept on and we were told if we were ever put in that position do not drink or eat anything they offer. And also don't relieve yourself. So JoAnne and I were cross-legged for 32½ hours until we got back. And when we got back, our SUV was in the driveway. That meant they had had keys to get into this house.
So the fact is, if JoAnne and I have done something wrong, then throw us in jail. If not, leave us the hell alone.

Joe: Right.

James: We're telling the truth. We're not making any of this up. And believe me, if anything we said was not true, they would be tickled to death to throw us in jail and make us their puppets. So we've got it tough. We're on the end of a little-bitty branch.

JoAnne: It's like Snowden said, "How is it that the people that broke the law and I said that they broke the law, now I'm breaking the law because I pointed out that they broke the law." It's the same thing with us. We watched them commit war crimes that were unconscionable. In a world where you think people are humane people, you can't imagine the kind of things that we saw and heard and interviewed and eyewitnessed.

James: One intelligence agency guy that was there as a personal bodyguard of another spy that was in there acting like she was a humanitarian from Canada, a nice guy, said "I didn't even know where I was going. I'm here, etc." JoAnne and I bought some metres to monitor the amount of radiation and we said "Yeah, but the thing that's real disturbing is we are finding that all these shells are depleted uranium." And he said "Oh yeah. Any place the United States has bombed, they glow in the dark."

JoAnne: They light up.

James: He said "They all light up. That's all the weapons they use." Well depleted uranium is a real nasty weapon because...

JoAnne: It's also an illegal weapon.

James: ...it causes permanent damage to the soil and everything. These are unconscionable acts. And they do it with no remorse or anything.

Joe: Well guys, I think what you're doing and what you've done is absolutely commendable and I don't have high enough praise for your moral fibre and your courage and your strength. I'm really going to encourage all of our listeners to try and help you out because it's the very least ordinary people with a conscience can do, who support truth and freedom and are against the evils and the evildoers of this world. It's the last people can do, is to help people like yourselves who are putting your lives on the line to spread the truth. So I just want everybody listening to consider making a donation and buying your CD from your website which has all the information in it because it's a really worthy cause; probably the most worthy one I've heard in a long time.

James: Well keep us in your prayers. That's real important.

Niall: Absolutely.

James: That has been a protection that has really saved us. And of course our DVDs are three hours long. They've got a whole lot of information you've not seen from anybody. A donation would always help. Of course we were tickled to death when you invited us to be on your show. We really were hoping that you were going to invite us to do the show right there in your studios in France. (laughter) But that didn't materialize.

Joe: It's a bit of short notice. It would be hard to get you here for the show. But if you're ever doing a bit of traveling you're very welcome, if you ever get across this side of the pond.

JoAnne: Oh, we love Ireland.

Joe: Well we're not in Ireland anymore but we have some contacts there.

JoAnne: I know. I'm sure. We went and kissed the blarney stone one time.

James: You couldn't tell that though, could you?

Niall: No, not at all.

Joe: Well listen guys. It's been a real pleasure and I really hope you guys stay safe and keep doing what you're doing. I'd love to see you get a big budget movie made about your life and your experiences but with all of the truth kept in there, but maybe that's too much to ask.

JoAnne: It would be a better movie than Argo, believe me, because we never got any help from anybody.

Joe: Right.

James: Well god bless you all. Thank you so much for having us on your show. Your folks can go to our website and keep us in your prayers and if you can see it in your way to buy our DVD that'd be great.

JoAnne: They bought it already.

James: Any donations can be great.

Joe: Absolutely. Alright guys. Thanks a million.

James: God bless you.

JoAnne: God bless you.

Niall: And to you. Bye-bye.

JoAnne: Bye.

Joe: Alright folks, that was a harrowing story. I'm speechless. That's the real inside truth on Libya and you really get a sense there of the nature of the powers that be in this world and what they're actually doing; everything that's manifesting in the world right now, in terms of the evil of this world and all of the head chopping and the brutality and evil that you see plastered across western mainstream media papers, websites and on the news, all of that evil and horror that most people in the west want to turn their faces away from because "it's those evil Muslims," that's the west. That's the elite in the west! That's your government doing that! Those horrific images of killing children, throwing people off roofs, cutting heads off, burning people alive, that is the ethos, the essence and the nature of the psychopaths in power in the west. Nowhere else. Maybe somewhere else, but primarily in the west, let's say. They are the prime movers and shakers behind why that is happening. So it's just horrible and I don't know what else to say about it really.

Niall: That's just one story. That's the story, by sheer chance, of two people who happened to be in Libya. Iraq, Yemen, Syria, you can multiply it many times in fact over decades. But recently it's just taken a whole new turn. This world just went to hell in a handbasket fast 15 years ago.

Joe: Yeah. When you have that level of evil, duplicity, pure lack of conscience and a pure evil and hatred of humanity, what you're seeing is a hatred of ordinary people and a willingness to slaughter and kill them in the most gruesome ways. When you see that happening, you realize that that is being done by the supposed leaders of the "free world" and you realize that this world is not long for anything really. It's going somewhere bad very quickly.

Niall: Yeah. Bring on the comets. What else can you say? Experiment failed!

Joe: Yip. Well we're going to leave it there for this week folks. We'll be back next week with an interview with the excellent Robert M. Price. He's a biblical scholar and we may also have Laura on that show, so that promises to be a very interesting one. So don't miss it. Until then, thanks for listening and have a good one.