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We recently had an interesting discussion with two 'spirit healers', Patrick Rodriguez and Heather Hayes. Rodriguez is an intuitive healer and hypnotherapist with many years' experience. With the help of a highly gifted psychic medium, Heather Hayes, Rodriguez practices 'Spirit Release' and 'Soul Therapy', helping 'earthbound spirits' and people with 'attached spirits'.

What do these terms actually mean? Does one have to 'believe in the spirit world' for such therapeutic modalities to work? As Rodriguez emphasises, it's not a magic wand that will transform your life for the better overnight, but people do have improvements in their lives with the help of such 'unconventional' therapy, if only from learning a bit more about themselves.

Listen as Rodriguez, Hayes and former hypnotherapist Laura Knight-Jadczyk compared notes in this lively SOTT Talk Radio show.

Running Time: 01:54:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript:

Niall: Hello and welcome back to SOTT Talk Radio. Today we're speaking with Patrick Rodriguez and Heather Hayes. I'm joined in the studio today of course by as usual Joe Quinn.

Joe: Hi there.

Niall: Pierre Lescaudron.

Pierre: Bonjour.

Niall: And Laura's joining us again.

Laura: You're just so lucky.

Niall: Thank you Laura. So, yes as I was saying, we're speaking with Patrick Rodriguez and Heather Hayes. Rodriguez is an Intuitive Healer and Hypnotherapist with many years' experience. Heather is a Psychic Medium, who works with Patrick in practicing Spirit Release and Soul Therapy Sessions. Patrick has a website and has published a book The Soul Rescue Manual Releasing Earth Bound Spirits, while Heather teaches Psychic Energy Healing. A very big welcome to both of you Patrick and Heather.

Patrick: Thank you Niall and Joe, it's truly an honour to be here among the SOTT and the Cassiopaea members and thank you for having us.

Joe: No problem, it's great that you've decided to agree to join us. So, is the term 'soul rescue' - it's probably not a very commonly known term, most people out there in the world, let's say, most certainly haven't, would never really put those two words together - what exactly is soul rescue and how did you yourself get into it in the first place?

Patrick: That's a great story actually; one I really kind of enjoy telling. Soul rescue is about helping earth bound spirits to transition and it starts with a theory that we're all alive and we're all going to die at some point and that we have a spirit. For many spirits, they don't see or something more urgent comes up than going into the light. Some people call it heaven, nirvana, whatever you want to call it or the light. Some souls just don't go into the light and they remain here on the earth plane. So, the way I got into it this is I was married several years ago and I was married to this very gifted, highly psychic woman and she would channel angels and spirit guides. One day she starts hearing footsteps in the hall way and she freaks out. I was like "Well why are you freaking out? You see spirit guides, you see angels so why this?" and she's like "These are dead people", that made me laugh. I said "Well let's talk to them, let's see what they want?" and she is like I don't know about this. So I finally, I don't want to say forced her, maybe invited her several times.

You know, they just got lost along the way. The first young man that we ever had a session with was a young man who was a gay young man having an affair with another young priest and tortured kids and so the light comes along and he's like "No way" right. So, I would love to say it was a success and everything was wonderful but he didn't go. "Go to the light", she's like "No, that ain't working for me". So the next one we did was a little better, then the next one we did was a little better, finally we were able to help the first young man. Some people or some couples will come home at night and watch TV and we would come home and we would do these soul rescue sessions. Then she started seeing and was like "Oh, this is interesting" so we started helping these people with attached spirits. That's how I got started.

Joe: Heather, can you tell us a bit about your own background or how it all started for you this rather unusual career choice that you've chosen?

Heather: Actually, when I was a teenager I started experiencing strange things. I thought I was going insane because I would hear people talking when there was nobody in the room and just certain things would happen around my house or around other people. I would just note things and then I started confiding to my best friend who I knew was into the supernatural and other things. He was able to identify that I had abilities and from there I was able to learn different things. I started to research different aspects of different psychic abilities and started to try to expand on them. But it wasn't accepted within my family so it was kind of under the radar only when I was hanging out with my friend's type of thing.

Laura: Heather, let me ask you. You know one of the things that I found most fascinating when I was doing spirit release therapy, of course I did it with hypnosis and with a direct subject although I did work with mediums on several occasions, but the thing that I found most fascinating was the metaphoric nature of what you see and what you experience. How does that come to you? Do you just see that or you feel it or does it just kind of come into your mind like a bubble?

Heather: When somebody's talking and I can't get exactly what to solve the energy, I will get a metaphor to explain it to me a little better. It just comes into my mind. I'm not quite sure how to explain it otherwise.

Pierre: During the sessions, you're in a light trance in conscious trance; you're not in a deep trance. Could you explain how your conscious self and the spirit interact? Is it telepathic? How does it work or what do you feel? Is there a boundary between your conscious self and the spirit?

Heather: When I'm talking to spirits or anything they appear to me as, this is why I thought I was going insane when I was a teenager, they appear to me as people just like you and me.

Pierre: You mean you can see them?

Heather: So it's like when I am talking to you, except if they're spirits they don't have that body energy so to speak. They just have their energy. I don't know if that makes sense?

Laura: Yeah, well I had a really delightful friend who was just absolutely so psychic, just like what you're describing about yourself, and she was quite elderly at the time that I knew her and this has been a long time ago. She said for her it was like it was always almost like a television that was on nearly all the time every day, all day long. She was seeing these spirits or these metaphoric images or things and they were just kind of running at the same time. It was like she was looking at life with two screens. One screen was the real world where she was and she didn't mess it up or mix it up, but she knew which was which. But she said it's like a television, like a screen you see this all the time, it just never was not there for her. Is that what you kind of experience?

Heather: Right, but at first it was like I was seeing them but on the same television if that makes sense?

Pierre: Heather, can you connect and disconnect at will from this spirit world or does it pop up in your life without you having much control on it?

Heather: I kind of just let it go now. I use to turn it off because it was sometimes too much to handle. I can handle it better now. When I was younger and not so much I would turn if off all the time but now it's just like if I do turn it off, then sometimes it's hard to reconnect.

Pierre: For example right now we are talking to you, the fact that you are talking to some people, do you access their spirit world? Or do you only see, do you only hear what we are communicating through words or do you have some insight on to other realities?

Heather: Can you explain that a little bit better?

Laura: I think what he's asking is, are you kind of tuning into us naturally or would you have to like aim a directional beam or something and willing, aiming kind of thing? Or is it just something that just happens? Like, are you talking to us, are you seeing stuff about us? Or do you have to deliberately do that?

Heather: It's not that I have to deliberately do it. I can see some things as you talk. But either I would have to tune in to see like your energy body and all the time line and everything else that we do.

Laura: Right, okay.

Joe: Patrick was dropped from the line for some reason and we're going to have to call him back, hang on. Are you there Patrick?

Laura: Alright Heather, tell us what's going on here?!

Niall: He's dropping in and out of another reality!

Heather: Yeah, I'm not quite sure. He's been having some problems lately with his phones.

Niall: Okay, we've been having trouble as well with our radio shows, they drop here and there.

Laura: Yeah, whenever we get on very interesting topics we have all kinds of electronic problems. It's just really amazing but we kinda take it in stride and try to work our way through it.

Pierre: Maybe another question for Heather while waiting for Patrick to reconnect. Heather, when did you start working with Patrick?

Heather: Actually when I first started doing my classes I wanted to learn different aspects because what I do when I teach is I go around learning different teachings. I kind of make it my own. It's kind of like if you learn how to make a recipe and then you make it your own type of thing. So my best friend had told me that he started going to this class and he really liked it and wanted to see what I thought of it. So I was like okay, that's cool. Then I met Patrick and for some reason I got an interesting energy from Patrick. So I kept attending the classes to learn more. That's when we really started hitting it off talking about our different aspects of teaching, different things that we agree on or disagree on.

Pierre: How long ago did you meet?

Heather: About a year ago.

Pierre: In his book Patrick describes three types or three levels of mediums and I wanted to know if in your case you immediately reached this third level of channelling medium where you can fully interact with the spirit, see the spirit, talk to the spirit, etc., or if you are to go through the first two steps? How did it evolve? How did it develop?

Heather: Actually at first I kind of didn't really pay attention to it too much because I was told by my mother that it's not a good or she thought that I had mental problems or something, you know what I mean?

Laura: Yeah!

Heather: So I tried to ignore that at first. But it came to the point where I could not because if I would get angry and I would walk down the street, the lights would go off behind me. It got to the point where I just couldn't ignore it anymore emotionally. So, that's when I started to talk to my best friend about my problems and then he told me this is how you can work with it.

Laura: Do you tend to have things break around you in startling ways from time to time?

Heather: It was that way at first, but since I've learned how to control it a little bit better, not so much now. But I still have problems with watches.

Pierre: How do you describe the main feelings, the main emotions that dominate the spirit world? For earthbound spirits, what is the main emotion?

Heather: The feelings that I get from spirits is that they have raw emotion, and I don't know if that makes sense? But basically it seems like when they detach from their bodies, they're just raw emotion. So you really have to kind of cut yourself off with your own emotion's to be able to handle it.

Niall: Because it comes through very viscerally for you?

Heather: Right.

Pierre: When you help an earthbound spirit to transition, do you get a taste of afterlife that people talk about, this light, this peace? Do you feel part of it?

Heather: When he tells me to help the spirit to cross over, when he's says easy transition and everything, I will see bits and pieces or flashes of their life and then it just goes really bright. I don't know if that explains it very well, but that's what I see.

Laura: I want to come back to part of Pierre's question. What feeling do you encounter? What emotion do you encounter among the earthbound spirits most often? Is it like are most of them afraid or are most of them angry or are most of them hurt, upset? Is there like a predominating feeling that you get from a larger number of them than the others?

Heather: It seems like the most emotion that we come across is loneliness. They seem to not understand sometimes why people are ignoring them or something like that.

Laura: Uh huh

Niall: Are they even aware that they have deceased, that they're dead, so to speak?

Heather: Most of the time, no, if they're earthbound.

Niall: No? I see. So they're going around in a world they think is the same world they knew before and they don't understand why people ignore them because they think that they are still alive?

Heather: Right.

Pierre: So that's one of the first steps, I suppose during this technique, is to make the spirit aware that he doesn't have a body anymore?

Heather: Right.

Pierre: How do they react to this news?

Heather: Most of the time they don't believe you and then you get other things involved and then they suddenly start thinking, 'oh well, maybe, because you wouldn't see angels otherwise, right?'

Laura: What do you see when you, I notice that Patrick uses this particular technique when he calls on 'angels' and 'helpers' and so on and so forth, do you actually see them?

Heather: I do. He actually asks me what I see when I see 'the fallen'. He described to me what other mediums have seen or told him what they've seen. I see them as 'golden people'. Now I don't know if that makes sense but it's people with bright gold behind them.

Laura: And are they're lots of them?

Heather: There seems to be. When we are working with people, seems like they show up quite commonly.

Laura: My experience has been and of course you know my whole way of working, thinking whatever is somewhat different. I do have the problem with breaking things and I do have the problems with lots of information coming into my head. I have heard voices. I've had all kinds of paranormal experiences. But I try to damp that sort of thing down and deal with it in a more direct way nowadays. But my experience has been that when I've worked with a medium, they see that there is like, "oh, there's this whole parallel world all around us which is just teeming with activity.' Is that what you see?

Heather: When we are on ours you can feel that they don't. It's not that they don't belong here, but it's kind of like that.

Joe: Patrick, are you there now? Could you just go back and say what you were saying at the beginning again?

Laura: Yeah, you were talking about how you got into this and you got to the part where your wife was seeing 'demons' or something along that line...

Patrick: That takes us to a whole other direction because I was already involved in doing emotional release, hypnotherapy, this type of thing and kind of combining all of these things and so it just made sense to me to help these spirits in a therapeutic way. I kept wanting to find out so it just came to me to use the emotions and energy and the emotions of energy. So, that's how it started with doing like these therapy sessions for lost souls and then when we started getting into seeing people with attachments, it was very evident because what she would see was an intermixing or an intertwining of energy and the way she described it is like you have the aura or energy of the living person was intertwined with the aura or the energy of the spirit. The longer the spirit had been attached, the more intertwined the energy fibres were. So by focusing on the emotions, releasing the emotions is what released the energy. That's how we proceeded with the spirit release. When it came to demons, what she noticed was that they all had jobs. That just made sense to me. I was like oh, okay, rather than deal with this good/bad, because I know there're a lot of methodologies of "well you know you're doing bad and you know you're doing this to the person", it just made sense of "hey, you're doing a good job what you do here".

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: That got information and it was like can we offer you a better job? Can we offer you better real estate? We were doing that for a while and that was effective but eventually she started channelling a spirit guide that said basically "I heard your call from the universe and I'm here to try and help out". It was an amazing experience for like two or three years several times a week. It was like going to college for spirit release and stuff like this. So Laura when you talk about your channelling, I had a very similar experience, it was like college, it was like take note's, it was do this, it was like this professor that she channelled that would say it's like this. So I just learned that way.

What the working model is we have fallen angels. Fallen angels employ beings if you will. I call them workers. And they come as a way to resonate with hurts and pains. So you have a person that goes through something really traumatic in one life or another or even this life. It's like I don't ever want this to happen again and that's a key difference. It's not I want this or I want that. It's I don't want this or I don't want that. That's when the call comes in, workers are put in "yeah I resonate with your pain" and then the workers are put in so that he doesn't have to feel that pain. It just developed over time, like the how to's, the working model developed. But it's all revolved around emotion's which correspond to energy.

Laura: Well, I think it's really fascinating in that like you say, you work slightly different. You came at it from a slightly different way than I did. But at the same time, it's very similar.

Patrick: When I saw your videos, I was just so impressed and so thankful because you're the only one that I'm aware of that has put their complete methodology freely available online and the world doesn't even know how much of a gift that you've given it by doing that. So on behalf of everyone, I thank you for that

Laura: Well thank you, it's just one way of going at it. I think it's kind of like the pragmatic way. It's kind of designed to work for anybody, even somebody who's not necessarily psychic or particularly gifted. Like I said, usually I would work with a person directly under hypnosis, but often enough I did work with a medium and I found that to be extremely fascinating and like I said in the video, I use to do a lot of experimental work. I would work with the medium, get the whole picture not do anything, just get the picture and then get the individual in, put them under hypnosis and see if what the medium was seeing is what the subject was seeing. There was enough correspondence to convince me that what was going on was real.

Patrick: Oh yeah, oh yeah and I'll take that even a step further is even if it doesn't match, what I find is that there is enough of a match - so Heather will see something metaphorically and the client will say "no, that doesn't feel accurate". I'm like okay, listening to the client and listening to Heather, I'm going to go with Heather. Energetically it'll be something that is directly related, that's underlying and it just happens. Whatever we go after energetically will be enough that it causes a domino effect for the person and that's what we're really after. We're not after, and I think that's something that's very different with people who are trying to get all this detailed information about past lives and detailed information about the spirit's and when they attached and so on and so forth, all we really care about is helping people feel better, get more control of their lives.

Laura: Yeah, and that's ultimately what it is about. I had to go through a number of years experimenting with it, gaining some conviction in my mind that it was real because it's a trip, it really is. And then when you finally realise it is so real and there is just basically a crowd of entities all around you all the time, it gives you a completely different perspective on your world.

Patrick: Yeah, oh god yeah.

Joe: Patrick, one of the things that you talk about in your book, The Soul Rescue Manual, is that part of the problem in terms of how these things actually happen in the first place. How people get attached or why they're earthbound spirits, as you call them, is that people aren't taught. Living people aren't taught about how to, well they aren't taught accurate information about death, what it is and what happens afterwards. You can imagine the confusion based on this theory of life after death and reincarnation. You can imagine then the confusion of an atheist when they die if they are presented with something like this.

Patrick: Yeah. Let's take just the medical model of the world. The medical model of the world is all about keeping people alive. Forget quality of life. Sometimes in some people's case's it's like up to a dozen different medications without regard to side effects. Even keeping a person alive in a vegetable state, there's a fear of dying even though we're all going to do it. So there's this mass consciousness of fear of dying, we don't know how to die. There's the religious context as well, there's heaven and there's hell and so a person dies and it's like okay now what? Even though for each and every single one of us it's a very natural process and if we just go with the flow, everything is going to work out and this includes, by the way, people who commit suicide. There's a huge misnomer about if you commit suicide you're going straight to hell.

What we've seen over and over again is that's not the case, that's not accurate. If you have all this self-judgement about it, that's a different story, then it becomes a very painful experience. But if you're taught it is okay to die, even if you're taught within a religious context, if you're taught to focus on Jesus or Mother Mary, you're still going to be okay. But people who remain earthbound, it's not always about fear. It could be a mother that is concerned for her children, so out of love, out of caring, out of fear, she race's to her children in spirit but she doesn't have a physical body, a father or a child who was told "don't go near the well" and then falls in the well and drowns. All these things are actual examples of people that remain earthbound that I've encountered.

Laura: Yeah, for me it was just like an ongoing tragedy that so many people were so confused and so lost and I would tell people you know what you're doing is is you're doing therapy with somebody who no longer has a body through the vehicle of somebody who does.

Patrick: Absolutely.

Laura: The other thing that would upset me was what you just said, people are not taught how to die and yet it is the one thing that each and every one of us will do and that's without question. We will all die and yet our society, our culture, our civilisation does not deal with this and I think it just creates this huge cloud of suffering. Not only on the level of spirits that don't know how to die, don't know what to do after they're dead. But the human beings that become attached because they are there and they have some kind of sensorium that these spirits can attach to. It's just really tragic, it's tragic.

Patrick: Laura, I know that you promote the Don Juan books. I've seen that in a couple of your writings, and I love that by the way, that Don Juan repeatedly told Carlos make friends with death, let death be your friend.

Laura: Oh yeah, you should never forget its right behind your left shoulder all the time.

Patrick: That's right.

Niall: Yeah, actually I was reading last night about in Ancient Rome, whenever a military general, in this case Caesar, would earn the honour of having a triumph through the city, he would be paraded through the streets of Rome and part of the ritual was somebody would be standing over his right shoulder constantly whispering in his ear something like "you too are going to die", over and over, to keep him in check.

Joe: 'You're just a man and not a god and you're going to die' type of thing.

Pierre: Did it ever happen during a spirit release therapy that both the spirit guest and the host decided to stay together?

Laura: It's happened to me.

Patrick: Yeah, it was actually a friend of ours who was just convinced that the spirit was there, even though he was earthbound, he was helping him and that it was of mutual benefit and I'm like, 'okay, what are you going to do?'

Laura: The one I had was a seventy some year old man whose father had attached to him at about the age of 19 when his father died (when he was 19) and had been with him all those years and he'd never been able to have a resolution about not being there when his father died. When time came to do the release he said, "I'm going to be going soon myself, can't we go together?"

Patrick: Wow. If I may, that's actually where the soul therapy of what we do comes in to place so importantly. Like I said, what the experience we had with the friend and it was during a class that I was teaching. I was teaching specifically spirit release during that class. But when we do client sessions, what we're working on specifically other than spirit release, we're also working on the energy body, the aura energy body, whatever you want to call it and we're helping to release those ties. So we're releasing the need to have something outside of themselves so that they know that their own divine connection is enough. We'll invite in other energies like love, self-acceptance, things of this nature, whatever the person needs to help neutralise the traumatic event in their life that's causing that emotional need. When we do that, we don't have the need to keep whatever outside energies that are around.

Very often we have soul fragments of parents. So if you have a very overbearing mother that wants to control your life, even while she's living, she can still send soul fragments to kind of like be in you. You'll have people like "I can hear my mother constantly twenty four hours a day in my ear" and that happens, it's very frequent. It's a fairly common occurrence just because mother has soul fragments attached to the daughter or son and we have to work on the energy of the person to be able to be comfortable to release those soul fragments.

Pierre: It reminds me of Don Juan in one of those Castaneda books. He mentions that when a man and a woman have sex, there are energetic links that get created and last for seven years.

Another question that came to my mind, you mention the case of this friend where obviously the guest and the host were happy together. Did you encounter cases where the host wanted to get rid of the guest but she didn't manage to get rid of the guest?

Patrick: I can't think of one. I don't want to say that's never happened but I can't think of one... Heather?

Heather: Well, when doing a house clearing, I guess that could compare. Because for a little while I did house cleansings and there was an ex of mine, his grandmother stayed there and didn't like what they were doing to the house so she wanted them out. I don't know if that really compares to what you're asking. But I guess that's similar.

Niall: In psychology, in psychotherapy, if somebody has a problem and they go seek help with a particular problem, the therapist will usually quickly realise there are many problems all connected together. It often takes them quite a long time for the person to work through it. Now that's what I notice is a big difference between that and what's going on here where it seems that within minutes this kind of soul therapy can be affected. It's a big discrepancy. Is it because time is different in the two places or it just works differently? It works to different rules, maybe?

Patrick: Well, first thing is, as much as I appreciate the observations, I really don't want to get across that this is a miracle cure or that this is the be-all-and-end-all and we're going to wave a magic wand and your life is going to be like roses and rainbows. That's not the case. Having said that, one of the things that I really appreciated about Laura's videos is when she introduces the topic of spirits and the effects of spirit's life is one of the things with psychotherapy, traditional psychotherapy - with the exception of Doctor Shakuntala Modi - most psychiatrists and psychotherapists don't recognise the existence of spirits or their effect on people's lives. So just by removing these things, it does have a major effect on people.

In addition by working both on the spirit side and on the energy side as well as the conscious belief side, I believe that we're able to have a greater effect on people and so I'm very open to giving people conscious exercise. So it's like okay we're going to do this to your energy body or not to your energy body but rather working with your energy body we're going to release these spirits. But also I'd like you to do some of these breathing exercises or I might recommend to someone doing an exercise like Emotional Freedom Technique, EFT, doing the tapping exercise. Things like that, so it's a combination and I know that Laura also does a lot of that. Where it's hey it's not just one thing, all these things and those combinations I believe is what has a major impact.

Laura: Yeah, there's not a magic bullet and people have to accumulate knowledge, knowledge of themselves and knowledge of things in the world and apply those things to their lives. I did have one case that was a really tough case and in fact it's probably the reason I quit doing it and it was one of those, I don't know if you ever had one, but it was the nastiest thing I've ever encountered and I was devastated for months afterwards. I took the guy, you open him up and you find out what's in there and you do the best you can. You put them back together and then you tell them "hey you've just had major surgery now don't go out and play in the dirt" and what did he do? He went out and played in the dirt. Two or three months later he's on the phone to me "it's back, its back!" I told him, "Sorry, I can't help you now".

Patrick: Yeah, that hurts.

Joe: Patrick, there's books out and there's testimonies of what's described as demonic possession. There's a book by Malachi Martin called Hostage to the Devil and it has five or six case studies of the exorcist kind of thing, I don't know if you've seen the movie that kind of a level. Is that on the same spectrum as what you deal with? Or is that something completely different?

Patrick: Man, I really hate talking about this subject but I know it's something that has to be discussed.

Pierre: It's exciting for the listeners.

Patrick: Yeah, okay here we go.

Laura: I'm going to do a video about it but it's not something I'm looking forward to either.

Patrick: And I imagine it's probably a very similar fear where there's so much hype around it. But when you get down to it, it's a perspective thing. But it also is very real. So, it is real, it is real.

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: The Catholic exorcism ritual, and this is a very like step by step like a recipe doing an exorcism and I'm not sure if most people even understand that, it's first you do this, then you do that, then you do this. It's a very antagonistic ritual.

Laura: It's silly.

Patrick: It's silly; you can say that, it's one way of saying it. You tie the person to the bed, get someone to hold the person down, it's traumatic to the person that's actually receiving the service. The life expectancy of Catholic priests that make this a career choice is one of the shortest life expectancies too. Having said that, what I call workers is what other people will refer to as demons. It is my belief that when I deal with workers, these are the same types of beings that will throw a Catholic priest against the wall. That is my belief. I've never been thrown against the wall. I have had some kind of uncomfortable experiences.

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: Where a medium that I was working with one time, we're in the middle of a session and she had to throw up into a bucket. We had work with one gentleman, who at the time he was living very close to us, came over for a session and as soon as we started to work with him on the subject matter, his body started to convulse and then he walks out and he's fine and hey that's kind of interesting. So as soon as he had the "demon released", he's no longer convulsing when he talks about this particular subject that he was working on. You know different things like that so I do believe that they do exist and I believe that our way of working with the "demons" is highly, highly, highly respectful. Our way of working with fallen angels is highly respectful. One thing I kind of find weird about my own way of talking is that I've noticed that I seem to speak in a different way when I'm talking to fallen angels. It's like I go into an old English way of speaking, it's really weird. I'm always like, what's that about? But it's very, very, very respectful and I believe that's what keeps us safe. I was talking about the spirit guide that was doing this training with us.

Now one of the things that he would tell me over and over and over again is you have to come naked. I was like what does that mean because at this time we would use candles and try to do these invocations of protection. Then he goes "when you're dealing with these levels of beings, the fallen angel, now you have to come naked" and I was scared to even like not take notes because I'm always taking notes and things like that. But when it comes to fallen angles, I make sure to clear my lap, clear my mind and it's just be in a state of being and he use to say at this level, you cannot do, you must be.

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: So do I think that demons are real, absolutely. Do I think that they follow the same movie guidelines, absolutely not. But it is some scary stuff.

Pierre: How widespread is it according to your experience as a percentage of clients with workers, with fallen angels roughly?

Patrick: Let me turn the question around and ask yourselves, including all of our listeners, how many of us have issues? How many of us have hurts, pains, drama, trauma or stories that we tell ourselves, unresolved issues from relationships, from parents, from work experience?

Pierre: Everybody I guess. Does it mean we all have workers and fallen angels attached to us?

Patrick: I believe that all of us have some kind of attachments. Where there is suppressed energy, we have energy disruption. Where we have disruptions, we will have like a beacon for earthbound spirits. Most spirits that come to us, people think "oh it's a haunting". Most spirits I've found are like "oh, I feel your pain, I have that same pain too" and it's more of a resonating energy, not a haunting per say.

Now let's talk about fallen angels and demons if you will. Most people have some kind of an automatic behaviour that they don't like. Road rage; so someone cuts them off on the freeway. I live in Los Angeles by the way so I'm very familiar with this concept. Someone cuts you off on the freeway, but there are some people that just go berserk and it's like someone attacked them personally and we all have this or many of us have this automatic behaviour. For some people its freeway, for some people it might be a crying baby. What it does is that triggers a hurt inside and it's not that that person cut someone off or cut them off. It's all the injustices that they've ever had are now triggering those demons inside and that's a very quick way to tell, not if you have a demon, but where you have a demon. I think many, many, many of us have demons and fallen angels attached. But that's my working model. I don't necessarily know if it's real, but it seems to be very consistent with the work.

Niall: How then do you gauge your results? For example the client goes away and their life improves, something changes in them? How can you tell what has been affective?

Patrick: Oh goodness. I just do all this stuff, Spirit Release, Past Life Healing, Balancing Chakras and if that person says "oh yeah my life has gotten better", "I'm more at peace", "I don't yell at my kid's"... hey, that's great. But you know that's the same any therapist would do.

Joe: I suppose when talking about attachments or attached earthbound spirits who are reinforcing these ideas like that became attached because of something of a trauma in this life, it was like a beacon as you said. Is it possible that if a person were to deal with that like as Niall was suggesting via psychotherapy or some kind of therapy that they would naturally release those kinds of attachments because there isn't that beacon anymore or there isn't that resonance?

Patrick: Absolutely and that's why again going back to the work of SOTT and Cassiopaea, when I started understanding, and I still don't really understand at any event, but watching Laura's introduction videos, the encouragement of people that you give each other to do the work and what I'm assuming there is a lot of emotional release work or what I call emotional release work, like self-knowledge, self-introspection. Yeah, that will release your stuck energy and releasing stuck energy will then let those spirits go away. When it comes to demons and fallen angels though, what I found in the past is what it will do is it doesn't release them, it makes them dormant and very often dormant for the incarnation. We're still dealing with a multi-incarnation effect, but most of us don't care. If we have a good life, that's all we care about. I highly encourage the work.

Pierre: I have a question...

Joe: Before you go on Pierre, do we have a caller on the line?

Caller: Yes.

Joe: Hi, what's your name?

Caller: Hi my name is Thor, I'm calling from Denmark.

Niall: Hello.

Pierre: Hi.

Thor: Hello.

Patrick: Hi Thor.

Thor: Hi, I'm calling to ask about the connection of spirit release therapy and karma and I'm wondering if you look at karma as being the balance of good and bad deeds and if you remove something through spirit release therapy, does that in some way upset the balance or does it sort of take it out of nature so to speak?

Patrick: Awesome question. So, first I'm going to address the word karma. Karma as you're describing it is the balance of good and bad deeds. Karma has, it's been explained to me and in the work that I've done, isn't the balance of good and bad deeds. But rather it's stuck energy. So stuck energy, let's say as an example we have two warriors on a field of battle. One warrior is fighting for his family, for his country and the other warrior got drafted into service and feels what he's doing is wrong. They're fighting side by side. One will come out of that battle, die and it's like no karma at all, no stuck energy. I died and I'm at peace with it. The other one has all this self-judgement on himself "what I did was wrong, it's horrible and vindictive at the people that killed me". That stuck energy is what I call karma.

Thor: Okay.

Patrick: And so what we do then is when we go into past lives is we help to release those emotions, release the energy. In the case of the warrior, it's like release the judgement that he has on himself and so what we're doing is we're just releasing energy and that mitigates the karma.

Thor: So basically, if I understand it correctly, it is not so much a need for balancing. It is more a question of removing what is stuck and with the spirit release process you remove what is stuck and that would be the same effect as a balancing more or less.

Patrick: Yeah and I guess that's another way of saying balance is when energy is in flow, then energy is in balance.

Thor: Right, if you have a scale and on the one side you have something heavier and the other side you have nothing, then if you remove the heavier side, it's still in balance.

Patrick: Yeah, I like that.

Thor: Great, well thanks a lot for answering. I think that makes a lot of sense.

Patrick: Thank you for the question.

Thor: No problem.

Joe: Thank you Thor.

Thor: Thanks, bye.

Niall: That kind of leads me to a question I had: obviously it's a very... you kind of play it by ear, as well as have a methodology, because in every situation you need...

Patrick: How do I take that?!

Niall: Well, what I'm getting at is, what if spirits and or energies attaching and disattaching themselves through one lifetime or many lifetimes, if this is part of a natural learning process for the individual and do you ever worry or wonder to what extent can I interfere with that?

Patrick: Again we're having a base assumption and the base assumption is that we're here to learn. My base assumption, no right or wrong here, it's just my base assumption and this is how I carry forward what I do, is that we're not here to learn but we are here to experience. Part of the experience is carrying forward these past energies and that past energy can be an energy from childhood. So in my case I had an alcoholic father and he use to come home and yell and blah, blah, blah. For many, many years I carried forward that fear, that insecurity and then when I started to understand "hey I don't have to carry this around anymore", I started to release it. So in my life I came to experience, well some would say that I came to experience, having an alcoholic father. I would like to think that I came to experience things like "hey going sailing" and doing all these other fun things, hiking and all these other great things. But I can't fully be present and do these things to my upmost while I'm still carrying those fears and insecurities. Does that make sense?

Laura: Yeah, but then the thing is is that the thing that made you able to release and let go of that was the knowledge that you learned so that was the facilitator for a new level of experience. Did you watch my videos on information theory?

Patrick: Not yet.

Laura: I've got two videos on information theory. You know I'm married to a physicist and we talk about these things a lot, trying to find actual scientific explanations for things and trying to understand things. Yeah I know how most people into the paranormal think that that's a waste of time but I don't think it's so much a waste of time because it's what floats my boat. It's finding explanations for things that make sense. We talk about these things quite a bit, in particular information theory and the thing that I have observed again and again and again is that it's input of information that changes the state. It's like you have phase transitions, you add the information of coldness to a sample of water and at a certain point you have a phase transition when that water turns into ice. Or you add heat to that water, which is a form of information, and at a certain point it begins to boil and then it turns into steam or a vapour. So you have several states of water.

Human beings, I think, are like that, they are like that sample of water and you can apply information to them in one way or another and they can change their state. So you change your state from a person who is plagued by your upbringing by adding information, by adding knowledge, by your awareness and then all of a sudden at a certain point, with maybe some kind of work, maybe some breathing exercises, maybe some psychotherapy, maybe just some awareness type thing. All of a sudden you go through a phase transition and you become a water vapour or you become ice. You change your state, but it's because information has been added. Wouldn't you say?

Patrick: Oh. I would say that information... absolutely, you're right. But it's the experience of it and I guess it's just a different word possibly or the way that I'm using the word?

Laura: Yeah. Experience is knowledge, it's learning something. I think we're here to represent the universe, the cosmos. The cosmos experiences itself through us. And it likes to learn things because as we experience things we learn things and as we learn things we continually change our state. That's what I find to be interesting, changes of state and they come sometimes incrementally, you just add a little, add a little, add a little... and then all of a sudden - boom - there's this big chaotic period in your life. All of a sudden you're in a whole new place doing a whole new thing and it's just really wild the way that it happens.

Joe: In a way it's similar to, Patrick, when you for example encounter maybe an attachment that has past life issues and you would call on angels, etc. to show that attachment, that entity or whatever, that person that show him or her the reasons why the past life happened and the way that it happened if it's unwilling to leave or it's got a problem and basically if that information that that attachment is getting and then usually, as you describe in your book, they're happy to go off into the light. Surely that would probably apply to a live human being as well. If any of us can understand we've got issues from this life or with someone or an experience and if we're able to understand why it happened because most often it's for people that have an inability to understand why and holding onto a grudge.

Laura: Yeah this is what I've noticed from all of our members, group members and forum members who've had sessions. For most of them, the huge relieving thing that they experience is the information. I had a past life thus and so and of course you know most people don't have any memories of their past lives, they don't have any clues and so forth. Heather is giving them clues, she is talking about these past lives, and you're giving information in the interaction and dealing with the attachments and so forth. I've heard them say "wow, I never thought about that that way" and then it's like this huge amount of relief by having this. So it's like there's an intellectual thing that goes along with the energy thing that meets somewhere in the middle inside the core of this person and all of a sudden they begin to understand something and they understand why they did this so many times and why they kept making the same mistakes. You know "I had this past life where I did this and such and such happened". So for them it's like this huge input of information from what you do that is almost as important, I think, as the actual getting in there and doing the energy work.

Patrick: Well thank you for sharing that. Thank you for putting it in terms that are very familiar to me as well, so I just learned something!

Laura: Information input! Yeah, it's been remarkable.

Patrick: I'm going to have to ponder that after the show. That's a very deep thing. I'm going to have to really ponder that.

Laura: Yeah, because there were several people that I've had some private discussions with who didn't feel quite comfortable with writing about it on the public forum and they said "I had this problem, oh my god" and here's this answer and they'll say "my god, it explains everything" and it like releases them to be able to think about their life in a completely different way and it's just amazing. I've just been really impressed by it.

Patrick: You know I have to take a moment out to give a huge thank you to Hesper / Corey. Just thank you from the bottom of my heart for just opening up, just the forum itself. I only read it for the first time like a couple of weeks ago and I was just so taken aback by the raw emotions that people share, his fear's and just the courage. I mean this is really deep, intimate, personal stuff that people are sharing on there about their sessions. Thank you to everyone that's done that. I'm really in awe of what you've created here. So especially thank you to Corey.

Laura: Well, he's a real sweet guy. He's been here to visit us several times and just a wonderful guy, and he's a good dancer too! Yeah, we try to run our forum in a very certain way, it's not a free for all, we don't allow food fights, we don't allow psychos and wackos and trolls and that sort of thing. Because you know when people are trying to learn to be honest and decent toward one another, you just can't tolerate that kind of nonsense and people have become very comfortable over the years. We've been on for what seven, eight years or something? And it's really a great place.

Pierre: Like in your session, I guess we try to create this safe environment, develop trust between the members so genuine communication can occur.

Patrick: Yeah, well it definitely shows.

Joe: Patrick, I was just wondering, I'm just reading some of your book here, The Soul Rescue Manual, which is a great little book. It's very short, but it also gives a lot of information about...

Laura: We're promoting the book here, people!

Joe: Yeah you can get it on Amazon, it's called The Soul Rescue Manual Releasing Earthbound Spirits. It's written in a very accessible way and in a very matter of fact way and it just takes you through the whole process and all the theory as well. In your book, in chapter eleven actually, you say that "the premise is that for many people their own core emotions and issues can become amplified by the presence of disincarnate spirits or other entities and by assisting these spirits and entities to transition, the client is then freed of the amplified emotional charge and then is able to deal with only his or her own issues". I'm just wondering, I don't know if this is a bit speculative and your answer will probably be speculative, maybe, but without these kinds of disincarnate entities that amplify this charge, do you think there would be no people on this planet with emotional hang-ups at all, that it would just be experience and release and would never really impact people's lives much?

Patrick: Never thought about it. I think we all go through life and have our bumps and bruises and I think the more that we're able to let go, then the more freedom we have in our choices. I wouldn't even know how to answer that.

Joe: Yeah, I'm just wondering to what extent these disincarnate entities actually play a role in human life and human society and the make-up our society. I mean, if that didn't happen, if that wasn't a reality, if there wasn't a possibility for disincarnate entities to attach to anybody, what kind of society, if any different, would we live in?

Laura: Well it would probably be better, but I'm thinking that people have traumas. You can have traumas accidentally. It depends on your temperament, like there can be two babies and one baby can have an extremely sensitive temperament. I raised five children, by the way, so I know what I'm talking about here.

Patrick: Oh my goodness.

Laura: One can be very sensitive and one can be very resilient. Say, for example, mother is dealing with some kind of a minor emergency and baby is fussing, wants mommy to come and mommy doesn't come immediately because she is dealing with an emergency of some sort. Now, in one baby, if there is that moment of imprint vulnerability, it would be just no problem because they're resilient. But the other one would be very sensitive and feel traumatised through absolutely no fault on anybody's part because mom does come eventually.

Patrick: That's a very common occurrence, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, it's an extremely common. I don't think there's any way to grow up and arrive at adulthood in this world without traumas. If you go out and do things creative and active, children get hurt, they fall down. I hovered over mine like a crazy person but I still had broken arms, broken ribs, broken leg, a burn and my children had experiences.

Patrick: How did you find time to do all this research with five kids?!

Laura: Well, I don't know. I've just been doing it all these years and my kids are really, really great kids. I used to time it so that I did my meditation while the children were taking their naps, you see, and then I would sit up late at night and do my research at night while they were sleeping and sometimes I would be reading books while I was nursing a baby.

Patrick: Kudos to you.

Laura: It wasn't easy!

Niall: Patrick, if you can have many attachments with any one person, and it does seem that at some point at least everyone has them, also assuming that most of them are earthbound spirits so they would once have been incorporeal on this plane of reality, then the kind of numbers you're talking about, it seems in my mind, are huge! We've got seven billion people on the planet today: are we talking about billions upon billions of previously lived lives that are still bound to this planet?

Patrick: Here's where I want to refer back to Laura's video. I really love Laura's video because there are some parts, Laura I love your humour that you allow to come through in the videos, it's like 'I love this woman!' I'm watching her and I'm just cracking up at half the things because I can so relate. One of the things that she says in there is, "I don't know if this is real, there seems to be enough evidence to suggest that there is a possibility and there may be some reality in there," and I'm like "oh my god, that is so how I feel!" I don't know if it's real. There seems to be enough anecdotal evidence that suggests possibilities of a reality to this. But I do know it's effective. I know that the working model is effective.

Laura: Oh yeah.

Patrick: That's why I keep coming back to 'the working model, the working model, the working model'. I don't want to make the reality or try to impose a reality on someone or have someone believe something. If anything, it's like if you're someone that's drawn to this subject, if you're someone that can see spirits, please get the manual because you'll just find your life become so much easier. If you're someone that you're afraid to turn off the TV at night, if you're afraid to turn off the lights when you go to sleep, please get the manual. That's really the reality that I offer, not the reality that billions of spirits exist. Does that make sense?

Niall: Okay.

Laura: Yeah, but I think that I would actually try to answer the question by proposing that we live in an infinite universe and that there are probably infinite numbers of planets in this universe and that there have been probably many cycles of civilisations on this planet and that there probably have been other periods in history where there were seven billion people on the planet and then there was destruction and then it started all over again. So yeah, it's possible there could be billions of spirits. A lot of things that I found was that they're not necessarily always discarnate entities, like somebody who actually had a body, but they're like these elemental things, they're like fragments, they're thought forms and people could be, like Patrick was saying a while ago talking about the fragment from the mother, people could be throwing off fragments from themselves all the time and these fragments could be going to people they know, people they're acquainted with, people that are in their families. They could be just floating off somewhere and attaching in China for god's sakes, I mean you don't know.

Niall: So that thing people say to themselves, or they say aloud, "Oh a part of me will always be with that woman", for example, in that old relationship...

Laura: It could be true

Niall: It could be true... could be exactly like that!

Patrick: Oh my god! Many, many, many catchphrases that you hear in everyday common language have a metaphysical corresponding energy to it and that is one of them!

Laura: "I was beside myself".

Patrick: Now, since Laura opened up the can of worms - thank you Laura! - I will say this: I don't normally like to go there but since she has, one thing I will say is that mediums will have the ability to see spirits and that information goes through their conscious mind. So it kind of comes in as pure energy and then what they see will be reflective of what they know. So if I don't know anything about, I don't know... whatever type of alien, but I do know what a little girl looks like, I may see this energy as a little girl. You know, Heather has been quiet too long! Heather, would you agree to that?

Heather: Yeah. I don't really know how to explain it any better than I did earlier, honestly. When it comes to seeing spirits, like Laura said with that TV thing, that explains it pretty well, honestly. As for feeling it, all feels different.

Laura: Have you ever encountered any that you would specifically designate as "alien"?

Heather: It really depends on the energy and if the energy is foreign to anything that you would feel around you, then I would explain that more as a 'non-fallen' or otherwise I would explain that as terrestrial to me.

Patrick: The other category.

Laura: Yeah, this other category.

Pierre: I have another question for Heather, you know in our world - the world we all can see - there are some very nice places, paradise-like with waterfalls and beautiful flowers, and some places that are hell, like gloomy, dark and cold. In the spirit world, Heather, have you encountered, while working here or there, have you encountered the spirit level and the medium level energy levels some places that were very charged negatively, or on the contrary some places that were charged very positively? Did you encounter that and could you describe it?

Heather: Not sure I completely understand, but do you mean if I've experienced those other energies? Or are you talking about nature energies?

Laura: Well he's talking about, I think, is there a landscape to that other world and do you encounter that?

Heather: When I see other planes of our world, they commonly come as just more of a feeling. There are landscapes if you pay more attention but I kind of see it more as a lot of different colours, different feelings. I don't know if that makes sense. If I were to focus and stay there longer, perhaps I would see more detail. But if I am just there temporarily to get done what I need to get done, then it's just the feelings and the colours and what-not.

Laura: Yeah, it's business.

Pierre: Okay. Going along with this question, I will try to be clear. In this world is there any place like a street, a square where when you go there, when you are there, recurrently you have the same feeling coming from this other world, either very positive or very negative?

Heather: That depends on what happens. Commonly when I go to certain parts of Los Angeles, let's say, I could feel something happened there. But other plane wise, if something is attached there and it has made a home there and had its own kind of thing going on, then maybe yeah, I could sense that, if that's what you're getting at, I'm not sure.

Pierre: Yes, that's it somehow.

Niall: Well as you probably know, we do a lot of research into psychopathy and try to understand what these things are, the psychopath... and often the way its described by the mainstream academics is... well, frankly they come down to saying there's something 'alien' about these people. Now what they mean simply is that it's 'foreign', that they do not understand it. They try to understand it, they try to give you a description of what it is, the psychopath... I've forgotten my question!...

Laura: You were going to ask if they had ever encountered anything that faintly resembled a psychopath in their work or what their idea was?..

Pierre: How does it look on an energy level?

Niall: Yes, and can a psychopath have an attachment?

Patrick: I've seen references to that word, psychopath, in your writings. Can you describe more, maybe the context of that word? Because I think you're using it in a very specific way and I don't understand it.

Laura: When I talk about psychopaths there are primary and secondary psychopaths and basically I'm working off of the scientific research models. A primary psychopath in all the literature, the closest thing that I've been able to understand by years and years going through everything I can get my hands on is that a psychopath is somebody who looks like an ordinary human being but they are animated by what could only be described as something like an animal spirit, a predatory spirit. They don't have the same kind of consciousness. They have no conscience as a human being has, but that's not to say that they don't have certain feelings because they feel certainly hunger and desire for power and that sort of thing. So the closest thing I have ever been able to come across for the primary psychopath is to postulate that it's almost like an animal spirit or an elemental type spirit that animates him, but it has access to a very efficient brain.

Now a secondary psychopath would be somebody who has been very damaged psychologically in their young days or whatever, or they've grown up in a household or a family where there is just constant violence and damage and so forth, so that turns them into kind of an animalistic type individual because the experts refer to the psychopath as the "intraspecies predator". Human beings, not having a natural predator in the animal kingdom, have this predator that looks like them basically. That's the short version.

Pierre: One of the main features being the absence of empathy.

Patrick: That just brings to mind the play by Shakespeare, Hamlet and I had a spiritual teacher that gave a complete discourse on the Hamlet and he talked about people throughout the ages have said 'well, Hamlet was crazy'. Hamlet went crazy because all this stuff was going on in his life that started happening. He's off to school, he comes back from school and his uncle is marrying his mother, turns out that his uncle killed his father who was the king and robbed him of the throne. Now the spirit of the ghost is haunting him, saying "avenge me". So people are theorising that Hamlet went crazy, and the spiritual teacher went on to say "Hamlet was as sane as anyone else given the circumstances. He was handling it as best as he can and he's being haunted by his father, that spirit".

What you're talking about, I don't have any experiences with the first level of psychopaths as you're describing. But the second level of psychopathy, as you're describing it, is very common of what we have very often. Someone will come to the website and say "can you release the spirit?" and I'll tell them "we don't do that, we don't just release spirits, we work on the whole of you". Many people are paying so they agree to that. Some people just want a quick fix, but people that come close, we always find a lot of hurt and a lot of pain. Which sounds very similar to what you're talking about and we help resolve that pain in many instances. You can accept the pain because people that don't accept their own hurt, and this happens a lot with violence, sexual violence, abuse is that people know intellectually that they were hurt. But emotionally they keep denying that it ever happened on an emotional level and as a result it keeps coming up in their daily life. So very often, just by accepting I was hurt, I am hurt, I am hurting, that helps just distil a lot of this pain and that's actually very similar to the breathing work as I understand that you teach. So as you're describing the secondary psychopath, that seems very similar to many of the things that we've done.

Joe: We might have a call here so I'm just going to go ahead and check. Hi caller, what's your name and where are you calling from?

Caller: This is Laurie in Idaho.

Joe: Hi Laurie welcome to the show, do you have a question?

Patrick: Hi Laurie.

Pierre: Hi.

Laurie: Hi, how's it going?

Joe: Pretty good

Laurie: I've been a reader of Laura's since the late nineties and it's kind of a thrill to make a voice connection! Anyway, my question is about physical phenomena that might tell you that you have certain kinds of spirits, spirit attachments. I get shocked a lot, just light switches, car doors, my dog, my husband. When I'm outside, I seem to attract whirlwinds, like dust devils even when there's not even a breeze at all and I just always find that kind of strange.

Patrick: First of all, I'm sorry that you're going through the painful experiences because getting shocked doesn't sound like fun.

Laurie: I'm used to it now.

Patrick: Oh there's that. But yeah, you know, in session, I kind of go into a mode when doing the session work. The intuitive part of me takes over and then I'm able to kind of feel underneath your words and I know the same is true of Heather. But I would imagine that you probably already have some inherent psychic abilities. So that even throughout your life, you probably have an ability to do things regarding electronics that just come very second nature to you that other people don't have. Is that about right?

Laurie: Yeah, that's really close.

Patrick: And so when it comes to these outside influences, it's what we've been saying all along is that they're amplifying your own hurts so that your hurts or whatever it is that you're experiencing, to use the term hurt or fear generically, is being amplified. So you feel fear, they feel fear, now stuff starts going haywire. Does that sound about right?

Laurie: Yeah, it's trying to tell me to pay more attention to this and maybe use some of Laura's work and put it into practice a little more than I have been?

Patrick: That sound's awesome, absolutely

Laura: You ought to get a spirit release session too while you're at it.

Laurie: Oh yeah, I'm going to. I was going to wait until February so that I get two birds with one stone.

Patrick: Terrific. Shall we announce what's going on in February by the way?

Joe: Yeah, why don't you go ahead and do it Patrick.

Patrick: Thank you for your call. Did we answer your question?

Laurie: Yeah.

Joe: Have you anything else?

Laurie: No, I just wanted to say I see spirits, I think, but it's mostly if I close my eyes I can see shadows in a lit room. I can't see them with my eyes open.

Patrick: Oh yeah.

Laurie: If they just move around.

Patrick: What you'll find really interesting is if you get the book or even just read the script.

Laurie: I already ordered it.

Patrick: Oh great, just doing that you'll see things. Close your eyes and you'll just see things and it'll be really cool.

Laurie: Awesome, cool. Thank you for your time and thanks guys for the show, awesome.

Patrick: Thank you for the call.

Laura: See you soon Laurie.

Pierre: Bye, bye Laurie.

Laurie: Okay, bye.

Niall: Patrick is going to share a little announcement.

Patrick: Well, again Laura thank you for the videos, thank you for having me on this show and it's just the members have just been so amazing, just so welcoming. When I read the thread, one of the things that really came across is that your members do not give endorsements easily. Nor do they take them easily. I just feel so honoured, both Heather and I do. As a way of saying thank you to you and to your members, we want to give ten per cent back of any session that comes through the website, whether it's a member or non-member. If they come through the website, ten per cent goes back to SOTT, to Cassiopaea, including anything booked in the month of February, even if you don't get it until March, just to tell you how amazing your network has been. We don't do this full time, we do it part time. But because we're dealing with not only with one schedule, we're dealing with two schedules we now have to set specific times available between Heather and me. It's like okay, these times we're going to do spirit release and we are booked halfway through February by now and that's thanks to the SOTT and the Cassiopaea network. So we do intend to give ten per cent back as a thank you.

Laura: Well we appreciate it very much and you know it'll go to good use.

Patrick: Absolutely, I can see that.

Joe: We have one more call here so I should probably not keep the person on too long. Hi caller, what's your name and where are you calling from?

Caller: Hi, this is Gary I'm calling from Tucson, Arizona.

Joe: Hi Gary.

Gary: Hi. I was wondering how does the concept of soul mates fit into this whole scheme, is it a positive thing or a negative thing or is it just some sort of Hollywood BS to sell movie tickets?

Patrick: I don't think it's a positive or a negative. One of the things that I tell people about doing your own self regression if you're interested in doing this, it's really interesting, is just find a quiet space to just be in your own space and feel the feelings of the person that you're in a relationship with. It can be a wife, a lover or even your mother and then just allow your imagination to take you back. Actually Laura gives very specific steps in her video when she's talking about how to do it hypnotically for another person. But if you do that just for yourself, it'll do the same thing. But just allow yourself to feel the feelings of that person and allow your imagination to just lead you where it will and you'll get a lot of information that way. You may find that your mother was a lover or your wife was an uncle, all kinds of interesting things. I don't think it's a positive thing or a negative thing. Sometimes you just enjoy the company of that person and you'll find very similar feelings in each lifetime. Very often, it'll be in many lifetimes.

Gary: Alright, well that sound's very interesting. I'll have to take a look at that. So thanks for your time

All: Thanks for calling Gary, bye.

Niall: That's very interesting. You found this pattern as well, Patrick, where people are intertwined in their current lives. They seem to, through past life regression, have relationships that go back...

Patrick: It really comes with a level of what you're interested in. I don't want to say like a higher consciousness because that's not really accurate but it's kind of like where are you playing right now and when you start to get into like these more esoteric understandings and fields of awareness, you've probably been playing with the same group of kids for many lifetimes.

Laura: I like that.

Patrick: You know we've probably done this many times, all of us together, you know. It's just kind of neat!

Laura: Yeah, I think it's kind of fun. I was even thinking maybe we'd have a radio show sometime in the not-too-distant future where you and Heather could actually do some little psychic razzle dazzle for callers.

Niall: If you're up for it?

Patrick: If we have time, I'd be happy to do that at the end of this call.

Laura: I think it would be great. I think people would really be impressed.

Joe: At the end of this call, he says?

Laura: Not at the end of this call. Well at some point have some callers call in and show how it's done basically on the radio. People are always asking me to channel and I've even actually started thinking that I might do it one night. I might bring my damn board in here and we'll sit down and let people ask questions and go for it.

Niall: We're going to hold you to that now!

Pierre: Good idea.

Joe: Patrick, we're probably going to end pretty soon but I just... we didn't talk so much about all the other things that you do. We just talked about this spirit release or that we've personally engaged in with you. But on your website you have a lot of other kind of disciplines and I'm just thinking here in terms of people who may be in the area where you live. You take clients directly and do one on one sessions with them for past life regression and all that kind of psychotherapeutic.

Patrick: Oh yeah. What it all comes down to is the umbrella of emotional release and when I do past life regression it isn't for let's find out that you were a nobleman in eighteen century Europe, it's not that, it's just feel the feelings. Just like I was telling the gentleman on the call, just feel the feelings, whatever comes up, comes up. Where are you stuck? Where does it feel when you came back? So it's very low key, I even do it over the phone. It's very, very low key.

Joe: Do you find that it's more effective or is there any difference between over the phone and in person?

Patrick: I can wake up and do it in my pyjamas? I kind of like that!

Laura: Yeah, that's what I like about doing things over the phone or radio!

Joe: What I mean, in terms of effectiveness, is it any better over the phone? Is there any tangible difference between that as you've experienced with over the phone as oppose to the person being physically present?

Patrick: For actually several years I only did phone sessions and then I started working with a young man and because his father asked me to come into his office and do it. So I did, I worked with him and it was really fun to see the weekly changes and I opened up an office again because I just realised oh my god I miss this. Seeing the changes in the energy of the person that I'm working with as someone begins to release whatever it is emotionally or attachments. You can see the energy flow. You can see the person walking with there there back straight. It's pretty cool.

Laura: So with any given person you can do several numbers of sessions and get more and more improvements as time goes on?

Patrick: Oh absolutely, especially with working in one area of their life. If someone just wants a let's see how this works then one session, great. If someone is having an area of difficulty in an area of their life, we can hone in on that area. Let's say its relationships, I can't connect to people or I haven't been able to allow myself to allow love in and we just keep digging, digging, digging, and digging because you know there's only so much you can do in an hour. By several sessions, one session might be we're focussed on past life, one session we focus on childhood on and on and on and on and on. But yeah it's all clearing energy. We do multiple disciplines all in the same session. In one session, we may do a spirit release, a past life, a childhood issue, balancing chakras, recovering soul fragments because working with Heather, and this is one of the things that's really awesome is, we're able to just go one thing to the next. Where Laura I'm sure that you've had this experience when you're working with someone and you're just uncovering a spirit, the person freaks out "oh my god I have a spirit attachment".

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: It's okay, it's no big deal. It takes a half hour just to get past that.

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: I mean I understand that. I empathise because the first time I realised that I had spirits attached, I was freaked out too so I empathise.

Laura: I had one that reattached over several lifetimes, every lifetime like at birth. It started supposedly this came out through various methods in a lifetime in Persia. Very long time ago where I had been twin sisters with this other person and got into a kind of a jealous thing, fighting over a man and I pushed her and she fell into the fire and died of her injuries. So she was really pissed. So it was really very resistant, absolutely was not going to leave, it was going ruin my life, lifetime after lifetime after lifetime. So we were calling her Twisted Sister and the place that she liked the most was my left shoulder and arm. I had a therapist who was coming in and doing massage therapy on me a couple times a week and he was also doing acupuncture. He'd start working and the damn thing would just move around, I mean it was alive. I swear to god it was alive.

Patrick: Yeah.

Laura: He would put in the acupuncture needles and I'd end up with like forty, fifty needles in one area and it would move.

Patrick: Ouch.

Laura: And as soon as it would move, he'd put another needle in and then it'd move and then he put another needle in. It finally released one night when I was swimming laps in the pool. It was just really one of those amazing things where you have the flashes of light and everything and you actually feel it leave. It shoots out of your arm like a lightning bolt and it was gone. It was really quite an ordeal but wow, Twisted Sister.

Joe: We have another call here so we'll be generous and take it.

Patrick: Okay.

Joe: Hi caller.

Caller: Hi, I'm Ariel and I'm calling from California.

Patrick: Hey same place.

Ariel: One of things I've found on some type of a spirit level, I find I am very drawn to, I guess what they call collective traumas and stuff, and it's almost like there's something that tells me that if there's something collective going on, there's something weird under the surface we sense that. And then there's that thing blocking me from feeling like I can do anything about it. Is there some type that Heather ever picked up on some type of a collective thing, say there was an earthquake in Los Angeles a couple of decades ago when up here in my area we also had an earthquake, just kind of these collective traumas and spirit attachments coming from those?

Patrick: Ariel, thank you for calling. Yes, so I would like to answer your question in a general way, not just for yourself but for some of the other people listening. There's a specific type of psychic ability and it's called being an empathic. Most people, when they think of psychic abilities, they think of the ability to see spirits or see visions or these types of things. Empaths have the ability to feel the feelings of other people and that's actually my own skillset as well. So one of the things that we have is just like what you're describing. It really gets in the way sometimes if you don't know how to turn it off. It's sometimes you'll just walk into a room of people and it's almost overwhelming or sometimes if you go into a crowd where it's a depressed crowd like a funeral or something, it's just almost overwhelming. Do you have that?

Ariel: Yes.

Patrick: So that tells me right away that you empathy abilities. One of the things is to train yourself how to use it and one of the easiest ways to do that is, I imagine people say that you're moody right?

Ariel: Yes.

Patrick: So when you start to feel feelings at a high level, if you just take a minute to center yourself and ask yourself as if you're expecting an answer. Not just say the words, but ask with the real expectation of an answer: who do these feelings belong to? You don't have to name them specifically but you do have to lock onto the feeling. So a feeling may be depression or you may not even know what the feeling is, but just lock onto the feeling and ask with the expectation of an answer. Who do these feeling's belong to? Very, very, very often it's going to be an answer just kind of comes from somewhere; you don't even know where it is. But oh these belong to my friend Cheryl or these aren't mine at all and then just that acknowledgement, kind of what Laura was saying earlier about information, the information itself will just lighten your load and you'll be able to continue on with your day.

Ariel: Great, thanks a lot.

Patrick: Does that help?

Ariel: Yes it does.

Patrick: Thank you for calling.

Ariel: Okay.

Joe: Alright thanks Ariel. Okay, well we're kind of more or less out of time, Patrick and Heather.

Patrick: Bummer.

Joe: Bummer, but we should, like we mentioned earlier, we should do it again and maybe we can do something interesting next time. Thank you both for agreeing to come on the show, it's been great. We've had a real interesting chat.

Patrick: Thank you, I have really enjoyed this.

Laura: We can have a super psychic show! Just let it all hang out!

Joe: Just to give people who are interested, the website is

Joe: The book is called The Soul Rescue Manual Releasing Earthbound Spirits and you also have another site, it's kind of longer So if you just put that into Google...

Patrick: Ah yeah, what was I thinking when I named that one?! I can't even remember it half the time.

Joe: That's when Google comes to your rescue. Just put it in there and it'll bring it up.

Patrick: Thank you to you, thank you to all your members. We just so much appreciated all the feedback you have given us and just the acceptance in your community.

Laura: Thank you. I mean I'm really glad there's somebody out there doing it!

Pierre: Alright, thank you Heather, thank you Patrick. It was great to have you.

Heather: Thank you

Laura: Good night

Joe: That's it for this week. We will be back next week.

Niall: Same time.

Joe: Same place... i.e., on the internet!

Pierre: With a special guest.

Joe: With a special... well no, no special guest next week. Until then, have a good one.

Niall: Bye, bye.