Sott Talk Radio logo
Our special guest this week on Behind the Headlines is amateur historian Christopher 'Chris' Fogarty. Fogarty was born in Chicago and raised on a farm in Ireland. He worked with his father on contract-plowing, meadow-mowing, and on a threshing mill. He has a degree in civil engineering and has worked around the world on major engineering projects. He served with the U.S. army in France.

He has spent years investigating the truth about the Irish 'famine' and runs a website where he exposes the truth that the deaths of up to 5 million Irish people in the 1840s was a result of systematic policy by the British to starve the "rebellious Irish". He has been a regular columnist for the past nineteen years in Irish American News, runs the web site www.irishholocaust.org and is the author of Ireland 1845-1850: the Perfect Holocaust, and Who Kept it 'Perfect''

Chris has been a keen observer of the trials of Irish republicans in London, Dublin and the Cullyhanna reenactment/investigation. He was 'honored' by being framed by MI5 and the FBI for triple murder of the Langert family. Weeks prior to his trial he was warned by an FBI agent that British and US intelligence were planning to "silence him" because of his human rights advocacy on behalf of Irish Catholics in the north of Ireland.

Chris is the Chicago agent of the National Graves Association (Ireland) and is in the process of systematically installing grave markers over some of Ireland's hundreds of Holocaust mass graves.

Running Time: 01:53:00

Download: OGG, MP3


Listen live, chat, and call in to future shows on the SOTT Radio Network!


Here's the transcript of the show:

Niall: Hello and welcome to Behind the Headlines on SOTT Radio Network. I'm Niall Bradley. My co-host as usual, Joe Quinn.

Joe: The usual suspect. Hi there!

Niall: Today we're speaking with Irish-American author and activist Chris Fogarty. Born in Chicago, raised in Ireland, Chris was an engineer by profession and toured and worked around the world on major engineering projects. He has spent years now investigating the truth about the "Irish Famine" and runs a website where he exposed the truth that the deaths of millions of Irish people in the 1840s and 1850s was a result of systematic policy by the British government to starve the so-called "rebellious Irish". Chris has been a regular columnist for some 19 years for Irish American News. He runs a website IrishHolocaust.org and is the author of "Ireland 1845-1850: The Perfect Holocaust and Who Kept it Perfect".
Now British and US intelligence have tried to silence Chris because of his human rights advocacy on behalf of Irish Catholics in the north of Ireland and of course his work to expose the truth about the so-called Irish Famine. They've attempted to frame him for murder. We'll be trying to get his story from him later. Chris is the Chicago agent of the Irish National Graves Association and is assisting the process of systematically installing grave markers across the island of Ireland for some of the hundreds of mass graves that are now known to exist.

So a very warm welcome to Behind the Headlines. Céad míle fáilte (hundred thousand welcomes) to Christopher Fogarty. Welcome Chris.

Chris: Thank you.

Joe: Yeah, it's great to have you here Chris. Because it's recently published and I think it's the culmination of your work, at least on the Irish Holocaust, I think we'll start off with the recently published book Niall just mentioned, published at the end of last year. Can you tell us a little bit about that book and what's in it or what's behind it?

Chris: Yes. First of all, in general terms, approximately 5 million people, Irish catholics were murdered between 1845 and 1850, but the killing did not stop then. It continued until Britain repatriated its landlords from Ireland. Nearly all of that was accomplished between 1900 and 1910. So the killing went on and it was accomplished by the removal at gunpoint of Ireland's abundant crops, it's grain crops, livestock, vegetables, dairy products and poultry products from the whole country, marched at gunpoint to the nearest port for export. It was sent largely to England but also to its army throughout its empire and even to feed the black slaves of English planters in the Caribbean.

There's quite a bit about that in the book by William Cobbett, a British MP at the time who described that and described that Irish food kept a quarter million refugees alive, loyalists from the north-eastern part of the United States who fled the new revolutionaries. They fled the new America in order to remain British and they fled to New Brunswick in Canada and they were kept alive by food from Ireland, according to this British MP, William Cobbett.

So what this is, is an exposé of one of history's worst genocides that has been kept covered up today. And the strangest thing about the Irish government is that so far as I know, no other government on earth has ever deliberately and carefully and with great intent and detail concealed a genocide of its own people. I've never heard of such a thing until I learned [about the Irish Holocaust]. In fact in going to school in Castlerea, Contae Ros Comáin, the beautiful Marist Brothers who did their very best with us. Brother Endo, my main teacher there, lied to his students for his entire 50 year teaching career by calling it famine and referring to it as somehow just something that was visited by god, a force majeure, just a problem, something that came upon the people.

And something very important in this is that when everyone uses the term "famine" about any nation, it imputes to the people of that nation a stupidity. In the case of Ireland, the lie is that they grew only and relied upon only one failure-prone crop; there was nothing but potatoes from sea to sea. And that is a shocking smear of the people! They were murdered and then in death the 5 million who were murdered, in death have been slandered, smeared; that they fell into a lethal trap of their own making. That is shocking!

Joe: Chris, just to backtrack a little bit here, just for our listeners. Probably a lot of them will have heard about the Irish famine and in fact, as you've been mentioning, that's the way it's been officially recorded, even in Ireland. One of the things I noticed was that your website which is Irishholocaust.org, you have a year stamped on there of 1995. That's when you first published that information.

Chris: Yes.

Joe: But back in 1995 there was nobody I think, in Ireland who had any notion whatsoever that the Irish famine was anything but what they were told. So it's actually quite amazing to me that 20 years ago you were talking about this because it's only in the last five to ten years that it has come on my radar and I think in that period of time there's been a lot of stuff that has come out in general about history, etc. But 20 years ago, what was the reception to this idea because for our listeners, the official story is that at maximum two million people died in Ireland in this famine which was just because all the Irish had to eat was potatoes and there was a blight and two million people died and two million people fled.

Niall: The consensus is actually one million deaths and one more million emigrated.

Joe: Right, yes.

Niall: So two million total.

Joe: Right, two million total, exactly. So although they don't talk too much about it, it's just "It was a famine, poor Ireland", that kind of thing. And this is common knowledge in Ireland.

Niall: I went to high school in Ireland in the late '90s and this was still what we were being taught. I was being taught this by Franciscan brothers, just like you were 60 years prior, so there was absolutely no change. And as far as I know today, no change.

Joe: So back 20 years ago when you found this information and tried to spread it, what was the reception?

Chris: Well the reception among Irish immigrants here in Chicago and in general Irish Chicagoans and Irish Illinoisans is that they knew this because there were mass graves. Every community had its own mass grave in Ireland. They still whisper about it. There are four in and around Castlerea, Contae Ros Comáin. My wife and I just got up a memorial over one of them, the one out in the country but there are a few more at the workhouse.

But the response was completely positive except I noticed that everyone associated with the Irish Consulate here in Chicago do not want to know. The Irish Consul General has gone around giving speeches in opposition to my work. November 3rd became Irish Holocaust Commemoration Day about 15 years ago and has been so in varying groups. It's not entirely widespread yet but it is in the United States, Canada, the Anglophone countries, Ireland, England, Scotland, Australia and New Zealand. It has been commemorated there, often by priests, often by masses and sort of like a holy day of obligation.

But that date was selected because it was on that date in 1845 that a delegation of 22 Irishmen went to British Lord Heytesbury in Britain's Vice Regal Lodge in Phoenix Park to beg him to stop removing Ireland's food and additionally to cease all distilling and brewing in Ireland in order to save the grain for the people. He read to them from a paper about potatoes and blight, which he poo-pooed. There are two events commemorated on November 3rd every year; one, the official beginning of the Irish Holocaust and two, the beginning of the famine big lie that Lord Heytesbury promoted at the time.

The governor for some reason, the so-called "Irish" government have been working very hard against me. One November about four years ago the Irish government got behind a taxi driver in Dublin by the name of Blanch who has set up some day in May, a meaningless day in May, to commemorate the starvation of Ireland. But of course they're commemorating along with Lord Heytesbury a potato famine. The real date for the holocaust of Ireland, what was really done, is November the 3rd.

We tried to get it taught in the schools here in Illinois and the Irish Consul General went around promoting potato famine. She gave speeches everywhere regarding the potato famine. My eyes were partly opened by Cecil Woodham-Smith's The Great Hunger written in 1962 or 1963. In it she cited and wrote about the food removal by 13 named British regiments. Had she not buried that under other contradictory, false statements, I would have known then that it was not a famine but was a genocide, but she buried it under many, many pages of contradictory information claiming for example, that a chief cause of the deaths in Ireland is that women had forgotten how to cook anything but potatoes.

Joe: My goodness!

Chris: The problem was culinary deficiency. [laughs] If it weren't a cover up of the murder or millions [it would be funny]. Then she also said that no grain was grown hardly anywhere in the west of Ireland.

Joe: Right.

Chris: My book completely demolishes that by presenting the precise locations of every grain mill, kiln, brewery, distillery and flour mill in the country. She said there were none whatever in Sligo and Donegal and in fact those two counties have I believe the greatest number of grain mills and grain kilns of any county in Ireland. So she lied in her book and why she did it I don't know; I think maybe to get whatever little bit of truth she was permitted to get out. And she did name 13 British regiments and was smeared for the next two decades.

Irish academia smeared her relentlessly. If you were going to secondary school at the time in Ireland or shortly after you might have been in on part of the smearing campaigns because academia set out the destruction of her reputation. I then forgot about it and continued using the word we were taught in school "famine". Her book had not corrected that falsehood in my mind.

So I was doing my grandfather's biography after finishing up a job in El Salvador and went to the public record office in Kew outside London because he, I have learned to be ashamed to say, was a career British soldier. His sister died between the family house and the local post office in Durrow, County Laois, looking for his army pay. He kept his siblings and perhaps his parents alive for some years and he joined the army for that purpose. He walked from Durrow to Abby Laois to sign up. He took the Queen's shilling. He participated in the destruction of the aboriginal in Australia. He was in the Maori wars in New Zealand. He was in India. And he marched along with 40 of the Regiment of Foot in the celebrations when Queen Victoria became the Empress of India in 1875. He retired in 1881, the very same year that the British government gave up the cat o' nine tails as a means of military discipline.

I found in reading background on the 40th regiment, the regiment he joined, was removing the food at gunpoint when he was five to eight years of age, from South County Galway to the Port of Galway for export. And I said "How can this be?!? I was always taught everywhere the only word there is famine. How can this be!?" So I immediately studied further and eventually found that more than half of the British Empire army at the time were in Ireland removing Ireland's food at gunpoint.

Joe: More than half!

Chris: More than half, yes. There's an error in my website that the book corrects. It was precisely 67 British regiments in Ireland from a total of 130 total regiments in their empire army. So just slightly over half of the British Empire army were in Ireland removing its food at gunpoint. And that has been called a famine. It is absolutely shocking!
So I got that information and I put it into a pamphlet and got it around. My wife and I were beaten up passing them out at the Milwaukee Irish Fest back around that time in the late '80s.

Joe: Beaten up by who?

Chris: It was a security guard at the Milwaukee Fest smashed my wife in the mouth with a transceiver, they were the size of a brick at the time. She was spouting blood. I immediately shouted for the police and ran after him. The police were very, very close by. They soon came, put handcuffs on me, and then pushed me backwards so I fell onto the concrete on my handcuffed hands behind my back. They then pulled me up and brought us both, with my wife still spouting blood, and took us to a guard shack for Milwaukee Irish Fest in Maier Park along the lakefront in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

They held us there for about four hours until my wife's lips went down. They had swelled up like a baseball. After the swelling went down they took us to the hospital and they treated our wounds. I was wounded as well as she, by the police. She was wounded by a security guard; I was injured by the police. After a few hours in the hospital we were fixed up with bandages and things on us and the police took us to the local lock-up in the middle of Milwaukee and we weren't released until noon the following day. I was charged with some crimes also, but within a day or two we received notice from Milwaukee that all charges were being dropped. I sought legal assistance to sue them for it but couldn't get anyone to do it. So that was one small item.

Joe: There was no obvious link between you handing out these leaflets exposing the truth about what the British did in Ireland and the attack by the guard, right?

Chris: No, that was specifically his purpose, to stop us.

Joe: Really?

Chris: As we walked by one of the officers and handed him one he said "You can't do that here." So I thought who would say no if all he has to do is read it? So we continued distributing. Within about three or four minutes from them my wife had her lip split open by this security guard.

Joe: Have you any idea who was behind that?

Chris: Yes of course. And in fact while I was still locked up with handcuffs on me so very tight I was in agony, my wife was outside the door of the security shack and the Irish Consul General came along and she said to him "You're behind this!" Now if he were innocent he'd say "Behind what?" He said "No I'm not".

Joe: Right.

Chris: And we went into the guard shack where I was held. So the Irish Consul General was behind it, or at least very much approving of it. He was one of the participants in the agony I went through as the result of the tightened handcuffs and all the injuries. So that was the Irish Consul General.

But later we got a warning from a friend. In fact I have a photograph here. At the Maris Brothers school in Castlerea County, Roscommon there are three or four classes there all in one and sitting directly in front of me is a man by the name of Joe Doyle. We were the same age. Like me, he was born in the states and his family went back and brought him with them when he was a child like me. He phoned me and he said "Chris, I've got to talk to you." I said "Okay Joe, you're talking. He said "I can't do it over the phone." I said "Stop by." He said "I can't talk to you there either." I was mystified and I said "Well what do you want to do?" He said "Meet me tomorrow morning at the Golden Flame Restaurant up on Higgins Avenue and Sayer on the northwest side of Chicago."

So we met him there the next day, my wife and I both, and he said "Your lives are in danger." I said "Joe, we don't have any enemies." He said "Well some of my FBI colleagues have been bribed and subverted by MI5 and they're planning crimes against you to silence you and the work you're doing." I thought about that and he gave me a whole lot more details; the form of the bribes, how it all happened, who bit and who didn't and all, how many trips they took over to London and from there to Belfast. These are FBI agents. But I said "Joe, you're in law enforcement. We're not. What are you doing about it?" He said "There's nothing I can do." I said "You swore an oath of office to uphold the Constitution at all times. You don't have an option." He said "It's all happening over my head. There's absolutely nothing I can do."

So Mary and I didn't communicate at the moment, but later we both thought the same thing. If he didn't know his own oath of office, it is more like that he had his whole story wrong. So we sort of forgot about it. But a month-and-a-half later there was a triple murder in Winnetka, Illinois of people I'd never heard of in my life and we learned later that I was framed for that by a signed murder investigation report. We have a copy of that. While we were facing other equally bogus charges for which we were locked up in the federal lock up in Chicago and barely made it out on bail, $100,000 for me, $50,000 for my wife and two others, Frank O'Neil, the deed to his house and another $10,000 for Tony McCormick from the north, Carrickfergus.

We got out however after three days, barely, barely, barely made it. We almost denied it, obviously. The FBI did not want to allow us to get out on bail. By getting out on bail we were able to hire lawyers and to defend ourselves. Had we remained in jail, we would have gone from jail, to trial, to prison and we'd never get out. We did bail out after three days in the federal lock up.

Fifteen months later, on that second set of charges, we proved that the only evidence against us was an FBI audio tape that was scientifically proven to be criminally fabricated. Nothing was ever done to the criminals and I wrote to the judge, George Lindberg, demanding that he notify law enforcement about the crimes that were perpetrated in front of him in his courtroom. He wrote back saying that as a judge in that courtroom, he's not allowed to arrest anybody. So I wrote back to him "You have just completely misrepresented my demand which I now repeat; that you notify law enforcement of the crimes that were perpetrated in front of you in that courtroom" and cited the case number, the time and everything else and he never answered the second one.

So that is what we're faced with. The rule of law is very little better in the United States now than it was under British rule.

Joe: So what you're saying in essence is that there was a random murder committed in the US and the FBI chose to fabricate evidence against you because you were active in promoting the truth about the Holocaust in Ireland and the British crimes in Ireland 150 years beforehand.

Chris: That is correct. And meanwhile by the way, on the afternoon when the triple murder was found, the local police were all summoned together and they were all asked by the commander to write down the name of any possible suspect. When the cards were collected minutes later, there was only one name on a number of the cards, and only one name. And that was the name of the murderer. But the FBI agent Buckley arrived the next day, put himself in charge of the investigation and prohibited the local police from pursuing the actual murderer. At the time there was a death penalty here in Illinois. I'd have gotten the death sentence, being older and a member, in their mind, of the terrorist IRA. I'd have gotten the death sentence, lethal injection. But six months later, while he remained on the street in Winnetka, Illinois, the murderer saved perhaps my life, but certainly my freedom for the rest of my life. He saved me by blabbing through his FBI cover. So the FBI kept a triple murderer on the street for six months in order to do work for the British government.

Joe: When you say you were seen as a member of the IRA, that was just more fabrication?

Chris: Yes. In fact the IRA almost certainly would never allow me to join because to be a member of an organization you must commit to it and I'll never commit to any organization because to become a member of a group, you tend to become a salesman rather than an analytic. You tend to find everything that's good about that group and to deny anything that's negative. So they would never have allowed me to join, but it was a means by which they could sully, dirty-up the jury pool in the Chicago area.

Joe: Yeah, and make it look like you may well be a killer type of thing. If they can smear you as an IRA member then it's more plausible that you maybe were responsible for this triple murder.

Chris: Yes.

Niall: Chris, it sounds like there's a pattern. We're talking now about the 1990s, right?

Chris: Yes.

Joe: Late '80s.

Niall: Or late '80s.

Chris: Early 1990s. Go ahead.

Niall: Right, just before the so-called peace process in Northern Ireland. Well it sounds like there was a pattern - this is background for our listeners - a pattern of both British and US authorities clamping down on anyone they perceived as being a threat to their designs, which have always been the case in Northern Ireland. So you would have been caught up as a "prominent" activist on behalf of Irish people and their history. You were probably caught up as part of a general observation against anyone who...

Joe: Was rocking the boat.

Niall: Yeah.

Chris: There were a number of people. There was the Brooklyn Five including a wonderful man from Nenagh, Tipperary. He died at about 94 years of age about 10 years ago, Michael Flannery. There were five of them charged with sending weapons to the IRA except that they had been sending weapons. In fact the comical result of it is that it the turning point in the trial against them. They were all released. They were all vindicated. But their position was "You have charged us with sending weapons to the IRA for the last five years. We have been sending weapons to the IRA for the last 20 years and we did so with the assistance of the FBI and the CIA. It was their weapons that we sent to Ireland."

Niall: That's why it's always a murky game to go that far with such organizations because they're riddled and controlled ultimately, from the outside.

Chris: So there are quite a few Irish in the FBI but under Thatcher and Reagan he was able to convince Reagan to completely turn against the IRA. And so a lot of Irish Americans sort of think that the United States government is generally on the side of the Irish in general terms and they're not. They cannot be because as Tip O'Neill says, when he was betrayed by the Irish Ambassador to the United States Sean Donlon who came out here again on a specific visit to stop Irish American support for the Birmingham Six.

Two priests came out looking for justice for the Birmingham Six and Sean Donlon, the Irish Ambassador to the United States, contacted US congress members while they were in the air, telling them they would be arriving, to not meet with them. So he succeeded. The two priests went back. Father Raymond Murray and Father Dennis Fall came out here and they couldn't get any politician to meet with them. It took something like 16 more years to finally undo that bit of injustice against the Birmingham Six. They were tortured into signing confessions.

But meanwhile during the 15 months of our pre-trial litigation in Chicago in defending ourselves against these MI5/FBI crimes, our lawyers got an anonymous tip to go to the Winnetka police department and have a look at the Langor murder investigation report. They did that and in fact the tip had to have come from that police station because they very generously and promptly gave them photocopies of the signed police reports that framed me for those murders.

So our lawyers then had proof that the evidence against us was a criminal fabrication, the criminally fabricated audio tape. And then a previous frame up of murders for which the murderer was being convicted in those very days. There was no way they could possibly win this so the US prosecutor pled US judge George Lindberg to please allow him to abandon all charges against all four of us.

They then tried to infiltrate us again, the same FBI agent through a David Rupert, a lifelong criminal from upstate New York. And he did get our leader, that wonderful old man from outside Belfast, who trusted everybody, to meet with him in private. They tried to get him to buy weapons for the IRA. By that time even if we wanted to, we knew that it was a ticket to jail so we would have a vote on it and it would be Frank, yes and everyone else, no. Then the same thing for a few weeks.

So Frank dropped out and formed his own unit that was headed by this MI5/FBI mole. After getting little done here because he wasn't very successful, the frame up artist, the FBI agent, Patrick "Edward" Buckley went to Ireland in 1994 along with Rupert and they remained there until the evening of August 15, 1998.

Niall: The Omagh bombing.

Chris: Yes. That ended their mission in Ireland.

Niall: Yes, the name Rupert's familiar. He was an FBI informant, yes?

Chris: He was on the payroll of both the FBI and MI5. We had experience with Buckley of course. He had made two attempts against me, one against my very life and locked us up and used the system to the extent he could to railroad us. We had never known or heard of Michael McKevitt but once we learned they were going to be framing him for Omagh, we said we owe him the kind of defense that we were able to muster in our own behalf against these criminals.

So my wife and I went to upstate New York and we went to, let's say, David Rupert's home ground where he was born and raised. He's not a Mohawk Indian as he said, which gave him entrée to various groups including in Ireland, by the way, and he ran a pub, the Dowsen Pub on the Ledson shoreline, which is only about a half mile long or so on the Atlantic coast, to use as a front for the FBI. But he was a lifelong criminal according to a New York state affidavit that was introduced into the trial of McKevitt. We brought back and I sent over four fraudulent bankruptcy filings by Rupert and he told the court in Dublin that one of those filings was because of an accident with one of his trucks, except that his bankruptcy filing was two weeks before the truck accident.

Anyway, we talked to numerous people. I talked to the main truck repair garage in Messina, New York, just about on the St. Lawrence River, way up north. He claimed a Messina, New York record that he was the only person in Messina's history to ever do business with David Rupert without being defrauded. He proudly announced that record, that he was the sole one that had ever managed that.

So Rupert was over in Ireland and they were framing McKevitt. Mary and I attended that trial in the special criminal courts on Green Street in Dublin. We saw what was going on. We were staying in a guest house in Holse and every evening we'd watch television and every morning we'd buy the newspapers and we were wondering "What is wrong with Ireland's news media? They're not seeing what we're seeing in that courtroom." But there was nothing we could do about that. It was just shocking.

The charge against Michael McKevitt was not the murder of 29 people but that was worked into the reporting on it.

Joe: Yes!

Chris: To where the first sentence would be about the trial. The second sentence would be "And his organization murdered 29 people in Omagh". So publically that's what he was being tried for, but in the courtroom it was something different - membership. But again, the public were being fed this falsehood by the news media and that's what stuck.
We hadn't seen FBI agent Buckley in exactly 10 years. The last day we defeated him in federal court in Chicago. The next time we saw him was on Green Street in the special criminal courts room in Dublin. We were shocked of course to see him.

Joe: What was his interest in the case? Why was he there?

Chris: He was there for MI5. In order to drive home the Good Friday Agreement. In the same way that the Langor murders were blamed first upon the IRA and then me, MI5's murder of 29 people in Omagh was blamed upon the IRA. It was an IRA bomb, but the massacre was MI5 with the help of the FBI.

Niall: That's right. It later emerged that they knew a bomb-laden car was headed for Omagh and they just let it happen.

Chris: Well, the owner of the car, Paddy Dixon, was an agent of the Irish government, so the Irish government were involved in that crime along with MI5 and the FBI.

Niall: Right. They were going to go out with one big last atrocity and then just totally demonize anyone having any association with the IRA and Sinn Féin for that matter and that basically heralded the end of...

Joe: The armed resistance.

Niall: Yeah, that was the end of it.

Joe: It turned public opinion against it. It was a public opinion coup for them.

Chris: Well we talked with Michael McKevitt's wife, Bobby Sands' sister Bernadette, and they were under very severe threat of death at the time. They were being killed by their neighbours. It was a very, very dire and very dangerous situation for them. But they got away with it.

A little aside here. Testimony was given on Green Street in Dublin, in the same courtroom where 200 years to the month, Robert Emmett was sentenced to death and beheading by Lord Norbury in that self-same room, so it's a historic room. So another main frame-up was going on. By the way, the difference between the trial of McKevitt in that courtroom and the trial of Robert Emmett in that courtroom 200 years earlier is that in a speech from the dock, Robert Emmett denounced the trial, that the jury had been selected to convict him in advance, that it was decided in advance to that jury. But in Michael McKevitt's case there was no jury at all. He was not allowed a jury because the jury might have told the truth. So they used a three-judge court trial.

Here in Chicago when the trial was already set and Rupert had come back here, he was getting two newspaper reporters to write a book financed by Lord Black, who owned the Chicago Sun Times newspaper at the time. Lord Black has just come out of prison about a year ago after serving about five years for his crimes.

Joe: Conrad Black.

Chris: Conrad Black, exactly, yes. So it was mentioned at an interview when they were taping him "Aren't you concerned that your background will not allow you to give evidence in any trial in Dublin?" And Rupert replied "My testimony or even any evidence won't make any difference. It was the state that selected the judges to hear the case", thereby impugning them, destroying the reputation of the three judges, that he knew the fix was in. And that was read into the faces of the three judges and about a week-and-a-half later those three judges said that Rupert was a very credible witness. [laughter].

Joe: They were stupid as hell then.

Niall: They bent over backwards to facilitate having this super-grass as they called Rupert, testify. So "Oh yeah, he's a known criminal but he's a good guy. He works for us. You can trust everything he says."

Chris: Well it's important to mention here that during his testimony David Rupert, on the witness stand said that Buckley left him alone in Ireland for a brief while, while Buckley flew to the Atlanta Olympics bombing murder site. The Atlanta Olympics was in 1996, so they were in Ireland all those years extending through 1996 at which time Buckley, the FBI left Ireland to go to Atlanta. And there you might know that there the FBI framed another innocent and Buckley having been the expert in framing people and evidence fabrication and perjury, probably led that frame-up. They framed the security guard who had noticed the backpack on the ground and had gotten as many people away from it as he could. One was killed. But he was a hero.

But Buckley came along and framed him also. It hadn't gone to court but he got the news media to publish the lie that the security guard was the culprit. The security guard later sued the local newspapers for defamation and collected a few million dollars but died very young, very soon thereafter.

And by the way, being framed by the FBI does seem to be a life-shortening experience. That security guard died in his 30s and one of the four of us, Tony McCormick, died at 51. And of course Frank O'Neil was older, but he died also. My wife and I are the only survivors of the so-called Chicago Four who were framed. I was framed twice. She was framed once. We were both incarcerated and barely made it out on bail.

So all of that has to do with telling the truth that is not wanted. I could never understand why the FBI would be involved in the murder of 29 people. I know that they managed to pin it on the IRA and therefore wipe out the IRA in Ireland, but only very recently, just last year, did I find what seems to be the reason. There's a book published called Voices From The Grave. Are you familiar with it?

Joe: Yeah, I've heard of it.

Chris: By Ed Maloney. Essentially the book contains two interviews, one of Brendan Hughes, so-called Darky Hughes, from Belfast and the other of David Irvine, the head of the Ulster Volunteer Force, the main terrorist killer group in Ireland that murdered many hundreds of people, all Catholics of course. David Irvine was brought in triumph to the White House in 1994. Now being brought in triumph to the White House in itself is a statement by our government. And while there he said what many loyalists tend to believe. He was talking to the US state department head of the Britain desk and he complained to that person, the head of the Britain desk that the United States government is in favour of the provos and the head of the Britain desk replied - and I'm coming very close to the exact quotation - "No we don't. The IRA do not have buccaneer bombers. They do not have aircraft carriers and we [the United States government] must sew up the British Exchequer so we can use the British forces in our upcoming wars." And the next sentence by Dave Irvine is "And we all looked at him and he said "Islamic fundamentalism."
So the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places out there were all being planned as early as 1994.

Joe: Wow!!

Chris: And by the way David Irvine ends up saying "That was 1994 and I was not alone. There are other witnesses." I hate to quote a serial murderer, especially one that is being championed by a government, but I'm doing so in this case.

Joe: That's amazing but it actually fits very well with what we've thought before, that in the early '90s the US government and intel agencies basically started to develop the Muslim terrorism or Islamic terror threat, etc. in preparation for a long-planned invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. But it's very interesting because it makes sense as well, but I hadn't heard it before, what you just said, which is that the peace process in Ireland, which occurred in the mid-90s and then eventually became real towards the end of the '90s and just before the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, that the US government and the FBI was specifically pushing that peace process in Northern Ireland, like you said, to free up British military resources and monetary resources to engage in the "war on terror".

Chris: Yes. All of it is a criminal war. It's an expansion of the US/UK/Israeli Empire and it is shocking.

Joe: So the only reason there's been a peace process in Ireland potentially is because they had these plans for a world war, a never-ending war on terror.

Chris: Yes.

Joe: Wow!

Chris: That is the case. And the signing over of the disputed six counties to the British government is the greatest transfer of national territory in history, except in cases of catastrophic military defeat. And as you know the IRA were not militarily defeated, they were betrayed from within, but they were not militarily defeated. You wonder why would the Irish government do this? So we've noticed here that the Irish government has been on the British side of every single issue that has involved Irish America. The Birmingham Six, we were told by the Irish Consul General "Oh, terrorism, terrorism. No, don't talk about terrorism!" So dissuaded us. We didn't know enough about it. We had heard there was an injustice but we didn't know enough about it so we backed off. Same thing with the Guilford Four.

Then once the Irish were first allowed to vote, all the population, general suffrage in the north where they were allowed to vote in the six counties, and the British government responding by getting employers to not hire Catholics, which means the indigenous Irish people. Irish America responded by requiring at least the US companies operating there, not participate in that job denial program. At the time 25 US companies employed 11 percent of the working population of the six counties.

So New York started, then Boston. Illinois was the fourth state to get it passed. It took just about two years to complete here. It required 60,000 signed letters and all directed to the different politicians where they were. Then we did the same thing when it became a federal issue. Illinois state representative John McNamara described the situation as betrayal from the most unexpected quarter of all, and that was the Irish Consul General showing up at our state capital to speak against enactment while Irish Illinois, to a person, was entirely in favour of enactment, the Irish Consul General stood with the British Consul General in opposition to enactment.

They worked harder at stopping the Chicago city council vote on it, on a separate municipal ordinance situation. The Chicago city government has a budget of seven or eight billion dollars a year and they wanted to make sure that corporations involved in denying those jobs to Catholic from the north do not participate as bidders on those contracts. That was important also.

So we got it enacted here in Chicago even with the Irish Consul involved in overtly sabotaging, working with saboteurs, everything to stop it, we defeated them.

Joe: That's amazing. Just to explain exactly what you're talking about here, you've been instrumental in the past in pushing through legislation in the state of Illinois, but this has happened in other states, that would require US corporations that have bases or operations in Northern Ireland, to not engage in discrimination, kind of like an Apartheid South Africa essentially. It was demanding that US corporations in Northern Ireland do not engage in the religious discrimination against Catholics, for example, and the Irish government, which is supposedly the Republic of Ireland government, was fighting against that. They were actually lobbying for discrimination against what was effectively their own citizens in the North of Ireland.

Chris: That is correct. It stuns, it boggles the mind, but that is the reality. They cannot deny it. We have copies of the transcripts.

Joe: They were doing it at the behest of the British government obviously, and that just makes it clear that the Irish government, like you've been saying, has always been just a quisling of the British.

Chris: Yes. It only became clear to us slowly when, without exception, they were working against us and in its favour. And when all these crimes were being perpetrated against us - and I'm an Irish citizen as well as US - the Irish government was very much on the side of the FBI against us. In other words, they were operating in conjunction with criminals against people who were doing the right thing. We were doing what all good citizens should be doing everywhere. Many people don't have the time. When I was working 40 or 50 hours a week I didn't have time. After things slowed down and I retired, we have time and we went to work. It was something that people of conscience must do and the Irish government was with the criminals, with the British government, all the way through. And they framed Michael McKevitt using the self-same evidence fabrication and perjury that we defeated here in federal court in Chicago, was successful against Michael McKevitt in a Dublin courtroom.

Joe: I'm aware that some of our listeners may not understand the context of the situation that we're talking about in terms of what has gone on in the US in terms of support for the IRA and Irish republicanism. You were a member of Friends of Irish Freedom which is one such group which basically supported the struggle of the Irish people in the north of Ireland and were for freedom for a united Ireland. That kind of a process and the people involved in that in the US were seen by the British as terrorists because obviously they labelled the IRA as a terrorist organization when in fact they were effectively a guerrilla army of indigenous people fighting against foreign state occupation of their country.

Chris: Yes. You wonder how did the British manage to call them terrorists when the homicide records are there available for anyone to see, which contradict that statement.

Joe: Right.

Chris: You might be familiar with Anne Cadwallader's book Lethal Allies just written last year or the year before.

Joe: Absolutely. It's a great book.

Chris: Well 120 random Catholics were murdered by a single gang named the Glenanne gang, named Glenanne because that is the town land wherein an RUC officer has his farm. The bomb cars involved in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were primed in the RUC's farmhouse in Glenanne. So all of this was available. Why would the people of Ireland allow their own patriots to be locked up in Port Laois and also Maghaberry? How can this be?

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: I think the answer to that question is they've been so heavily brainwashed. The topic we started this show with, they don't know their history. They don't understand that they never really got freedom. They got a simulation of it in 1920 and yet they've been under occupation ever since.

Chris: It must be said here that while the Irish were freed of their English landlords by about 1910 and certainly by 1920 they were essentially all gone, the rest of that establishment were left in place; the banks remained ascendancy, the insurance companies, the stock brokerages, the advertising agencies and the news media. They were all left in the hands of their enemies. And they seem to continue to be in the hands of their enemies.

Joe: Yeah, it's always been clear to me looking at Irish history, that the long, horrible involvement and occupation of Ireland by the British, you could say it's 800 years, you can't be occupied by a foreign power for that long without really the essential of the infrastructure of that country being infiltrated by that foreign state. Even by 1920 or 1922 it would have been almost impossible for any new Irish government or the Irish people to get rid of 700 years of British influence. It was so woven into the fabric of the state that I can't imagine how they would ever have gotten rid of it.

Chris: Well you're opening up something that's got to be addressed and that is, what the Irish people have in Dublin is a Royal Dáil. The current government is the successor to one that was set up in 1922-23 by King George V. That is his Royal Dáil that is operating. This has only become clear to me recently. The government of Ireland, of, by and for the people, was set up on Ireland's independence day and Ireland's independence day is January 21, starting in 1919. That government was formed, Dáil Éireann was formed as a result of the island-wide election of 1918 that was a landslide for the Irish people, for Sinn Féin. Based upon that election, the winners formed the government. The British government promptly declared the elected government of Ireland an illegal assembly and set about assassinating and imprisoning that government.

Joe: Right, because it was democratic.

Chris: Exactly. A few years later they imposed another Dáil on Ireland, and that is the Royal Dáil. It seems to me that anyone with any knowledge these days ought to be referring to the current government of Ireland as the Royal Dáil because it is the Royal Dáil and that helps to get people to understand the activities. It might not be too noticeable in Ireland, though it should be with allowing the banksters to go in and loot the country and then force all of their losses onto the Irish people, the tax payers and the water charge and everything. It should be clear even to people in Ireland, but in foreign areas what the Irish Consul Generals have been doing are so blatantly treasonous to their own country, it is quite clear here, except it is clear to everyone except those who have a personal interest in keeping the lie going. I'm afraid we have a little bit of that in this country also. The people associated with the Consul General of Ireland, the Irish Consulate, will remain closely connected. They're all on the make. They're all looking out for number one.

Joe: Sadly, I think that's the absolute truth of the matter.

Chris: So I've only noticed the Irish Republican Brotherhood in the last year or two. Look at their website and that of Billy McGuire, one of its chief spokespersons. They're doing wonderful work in advancing the interests of the people of Ireland by calling for a restoration of an Irish Dáil Éireann. It is absolutely reasonable and you wonder how can people not hear of this and not act immediately. Starting last January 21st they were not allowed to have their celebration in the mansion house in Dublin. They were stopped at the door.

The reason the people of Ireland don't know about it is that the news media do not want them to know about it because the news media remain, including Radio Éireann, RTE, remain in essentially Anglo hands, the ascendancy hands.

Joe: Yeah, that's the sad truth of the matter and it explains a lot of what has gone on in Ireland over the past century.

Chris: The Irish Republican Brotherhood, I do believe, have the peaceful, reasonable, intelligent response to the current situation. If it's okay now I'd like to go into the starvation of Ireland, our main purpose here.

Joe: Yeah, let's go back to that and let me just frame that again. What you've just recounted about your harassment at the hands of the FBI and MI5 was because of the support during the period of the so-called troubles, of you and other people in the US for the Irish fight for freedom in the north of Ireland and your support for the IRA and your support for republicanism in general. And also as part of that, you had started on this path of investigation of the so-called famine and I suppose from the point of view of the British those two things were the same; if you support Irish independence from Britain, digging up history and telling the truth of history about British involvement in Ireland, you find that the perfidy goes back a long way.

Chris: Yes. In fact it has been a non-stop genocide with three peaks of genocide, one under Queen Elizabeth, one under Cromwell and one under Victoria. And what's going on in the north today is a modified form of genocide. But to have withheld jobs and livelihoods from the indigenous people is a shocking act.
At the time of the invasion, the population of Ireland was about two-thirds of the neighbouring island and now what is it? One-tenth of it or so?

Joe: Less.

Chris: Less. Seven or eight percent of it, yes. So there has been a successful genocide carried out in all these centuries. The strange thing about it is that I think that the people were more knowledgeable a hundred years ago in Ireland than they are today.

Joe: Yeah.

Chris: There are few heroes like Father Michael O'Flanagan, but he was gagged by his church for telling the truth. He was sent into remote parishes in the back of beyond and was gagged by his own church.

Joe: You mentioned it goes back to the Elizabethan era. Ireland is a separate island off the coast of Britain and the British have for a long time, since maybe 1200 or so, their interest in Ireland as a colony essentially, began. And obviously the Irish resisted that as any indigenous people do, they resist abuse and colonization and enslavement effectively because the British, throughout their history have been extremely good at enslaving and abusing indigenous people for their own benefit. Ireland was no different. So the Irish people resisted that as you would expect any normal people to and the British developed different strategies and they had a lot of scope to really get their fingers into Ireland because it was so close. It may be slightly different in other far-flung parts of the empire, but Ireland really got the brunt of it because it was so close.

In doing a bit of research on this myself, on the famine, there was a letter that I saw quoted in a book from 1601. It was a letter from the lord deputy of Ireland, Sir Arthur Chichester to Lord Burghley...

Chris: Yeah, and I know what you're going to say. He's calling for famine.

Joe: Right. He was Queen Elizabeth's chief advisor and he said "I have often said and written it is famine which must consume them [the Irish]. Our swords and other endeavours work not that speedy effect which is expected for their overthrow." So he was basically saying "We need to starve these people to death because killing them with swords and stuff and fighting them isn't doing the job fast enough. And this was in 1601, 250 years before the supposed famine!!

Chris: Yeah, a little comment upon the destruction of those years. A little over a year ago I was at a local book sale and I picked up the oldest book, I believe, in the whole show. The title of the book is Discovery of the Tomb of Ollamh Fodhla , Ireland's Famous Monarch and Lawmaker Upwards of Three Thousand Years Ago by E. Eugene Alfred Conwell, MRI, Amai, Fr Historical Society, etc. and inspector of Irish schools printed in 1873. In the preface to it he refers to the annals of the four masters to a certain extent and in it he said that one of them survived and moved to Ballycroy, County Mayo where he died in 1660-something leaving his only treasure, his books, to one of his sons.

His name was Cú Choigcríche Ó Cléirigh and his second given name of Peregrine. He was one of three brothers, in addition to a Mulconnery who sat down in the convent of Donegal in 1632 and until 1636, they wrote the entire history of Ireland. They sat down to do that faced with what they believed to be an entire wipe out of the Irish nation, its people, its customs, everything. There would be nothing left of Ireland. And they wanted to leave a record of what used to be Ireland, behind. That books were later called The Annals of the Four Masters.

So I happen to have the Irish telephone book here of 2000. I looked through them for an O'Clery in Ballycroy. There are no O'Clerys anywhere in Mayo but there are Clerys. So I dialed the first, Martin Joseph Clery in Ballycroy and I explained to him about what I'd found in this book and about his relative. It's important to say here that by the time they finished the book in 1636 and then he died in the 1660s, that it was somewhere in between then when he fled to Ballycroy. But in the intervening period Cromwell was there, 1649-52, so he fled Cromwell at the time. So I said "Here's this man and he moved to Ballycroy, are you by any chance a descendent?" He said, No, we don't know. We've often heard we might be but there's no proof." I said, "No historian or school teacher, no one else has ever inquired of you?" He said "No, never. We don't know." I said, "Well this is just for your information. This man's name was Cú Choigcríche and his second given name was Peregrine." He said "Well I have a cousin Peregine who left here shortly after the second world war and went overseas." I said "Martin Joseph, you have just established that you and all your cousins in Ballycroy are descendants of one of the four masters."

And that's the reality. I put it into my column in the Irish American News. It was a delight to know that one of the four had survived.

Joe: Wow!

Chris: And that they had sat down to write the history of Ireland lest it be entirely wiped out by the British.

Joe: Okay, so we've established that the British had an intent as far back as 1600 to starve the Irish and in the ensuing couple of hundred years there were various famines along the way and I think that was part of the process of the colonization of Ireland, where a lot of the foodstuffs were being taken out of the country and English landlords were coming in and stealing all of the land and making peasants of all of the people but it wasn't until this so-called famine period that everyone knows about around 1845 that the British really seemed to go at it with a vengeance.

Chris: Yes. The English landlord, Lord Ashbrook, who evicted my great grandfather and his family from Ballykeely, Durrow, County Laois, his great grandson lives in his castle in Arley Hall, Cheshire, England today. By the way, the notion that these were Irish landlords is really comical. It is really a laugh, though a few were allowed. During the Elizabethan period and before, only four clans in Ireland were allowed personal legal personhood. The entire Irish nation were stripped of legal personhood. They were murderable at will by any English person and it did not involve the law. In fact murder requires that the victim be human and the Irish were not legally humans at the time, for a couple of hundred years, in their own country. So that's what they were faced with.

Back to the fact of the matter, it went on and there are mass graves all over Ireland. You might know where there are some yourselves, do you?

Joe: Not really actually because that in itself has also been downplayed massively by the Irish government.

Chris: That's true. That is true. In fact, in the years we were over there, we lived on what is now called the Workhouse Road out of Castlerea and I walked by twice a day and did not know that there are tens of thousands of people buried there. Later in going back and having learned about it - and I only learned about it in the public record office in Kew outside London - that's where I learned the facts of the matter and they're there available to everyone, I tried to get my old classmates in Castlerea to put up a memorial over one of the workhouse mass graves. There was initial great interest and enthusiasm but in a very short time that became very negative and they were under pressure from others and I don't know who those others are. They must be politicians.

But my closest buddy and classmate had become an excavation contractor in the meantime and he was the excavation contractor for a development of houses atop the mass graves of the workhouse in Castlerea. He whispered to me, didn't want people hearing, that he was excavating the babies' graveyard and he said they were all jammed together, all piled in on top of one another. And he said "We dug them up and moved them away and dumped the soil somewhere else." But word got out, maybe he helped to spread the word, I don't know. The scandal grew and the development reduced the number of houses so that there are three sort of small football fields on the development that won't be built upon where the bodies were too thick to continue removing. But he, I felt, was haunted by what he saw of the little toddlers' bodies, all jammed in together, piled in on top of one another, that he dug up with a backhoe.

Joe: Amazing! Chris just talk to us about the figures because we mentioned at the beginning of the show the official figures is one million dead and one million fled from Ireland but you have uncovered something else as far as the actual death toll.

Chris: Yes. The book I wrote is my writing and the evidence all comes from official records, but the population logs, the murder toll, was written by an Irishman living in England who was a census specialist. He's done a fine job. About five million people were murdered, or very close to it and that was done by taking the official census of 1841 and then applying to it the correction factor created by a Captain Wynn who made a count himself and found that the official count was off by more than one-third.

So it's been corrected by a specialist and it's about five million and it must be said that Cecil Woodham-Smith had also found the same thing and referred to the same correction but along with the rest of burying her truths, by the rest of her 400 and some pages in her book, having mentioned the truth about the corrective recount of the population of Ireland, she then used the official, proven false numbers to do her calculations and she came up with two-and-a-half million. But she only kept that number that low by using the uncorrected figures and the uncorrected figures are in my book. They're available to anyone. It's all spelled out there. Anyone can do their own checking.

Joe: Yeah, you mention a figure of 12 million in the early census.

Chris: Actually that's what the corrected census would be, 12.7 or 12.8 million, not far off of 13 million. Anyone is invited to review the figures, go over the records themselves. And I must say this book is very comprehensive; one must accept at five million and perhaps more. The author of that particular chapter ends up saying "Who can say that there weren't six million murdered?" Mind you I don't go with that very much. Not being able to prove something is not proof that it exists.

Joe: Sure.

Chris: Over half the book is comprised of exhibits and the exhibits are placed there as evidence of a crime, in the legal sense, as evidence of crime and it shows, by year and by atrocity and by legal enactment, the 845 year duration of Britain's crimes in Ireland. And it shows that the holocaust was the third of series of peaks of genocide, first under Elizabeth I, the second under Cromwell. By the way, the use of the word "holocaust" is not merely my opinion or my whim. I'm using it due to a historical precedent. Scholars and anyone who wants to provide the record, must refer to earlier records and the earlier record is that a holocaust was used while it was ongoing in 1847 and it was used by Michael Davitt, one of the leaders of those who were trying to rectify the situation. He used it in his book The Fall of Feudalism In Ireland and so did many other writers and I named them in my book.

So what the book does is demolish the lie of potato famine by proving the existence of vast amounts of non-potato foods. The potato crops failed everywhere but people died only in Ireland. Exhibit D in the book is "The Table of Non-Potato Crop Processors Extant Prior to the Holocaust by County Then Later By Townland." The evidence of non-potato crops is comprised of grain kilns and mills, flour mills, tuck mills, breweries, distilleries, threshers, livestock pounds, woolen mills and windmills. Pages 340 to 375 of my book shows the locations in Ireland of each of these by county and then by townland.

My wife and I extracted them using magnifying glasses, from the ordinance survey maps of Ireland, 1830, 1845 and anyone who might say "Well that was a few years prior to the holocaust", in the grain mills that are shown on that map, 1830-1845, in North County Galway where we first moved in 1946, I worked in one of them where my uncle was drying his oats in the local mill across the street from the mill and he ground it in the mill across the road. All of the mills shown on the ordinance survey maps were still operating in 1946.

So that's factual. So the potato part of it is gone by showing the existence of all the processing mills, etc., of all the other kinds of food in Ireland. Then regarding famine, it demolishes the famine lie by proving the massive export of Irish foods. Exhibit B is a series of the London Times reports weekly landings of Irish food in England. I use a number of those. I didn't take up too much of the book with those landings because that evidence is so abundantly available that I only used four or five examples of it, of newspaper clippings.

And then my book also demolishes the "famine" lie by proving the at-gunpoint-food removal. Exhibit A, the coloured map, shows which British regiment starved which Irish district and names the location of some 170 of the mass graves they filled. Exhibit C names the immediate perpetrators of the holocaust. Exhibit C1, the British army regiments that removed the food and their provenances. And my source for that, by the way, is a disposition of the army record from the British National Archives. At the time they were called the National Public Record Office.
Exhibit 3 shows the landlords' militia regiments. The rest of the C exhibits quantify the other armed food removers, the constabulary, marines, warships, revenue police, coast guards and their stations, to Exhibit C6; the total number of armed British enforcers of the food removal.
Exhibit 8 is a typical cess-seizure by army regiments and C9 is a typical cess-seizures by army and the source of both of those are the War Office Records and Parliamentary Papers. Cess, by the way is a word that's gone out of use except when I lived in Ireland and it says it's a tax that was imposed, usually by the army and it started as an upkeep of its own army. The people being policed or overridden were the ones who were forced to pay for the army that was oppressing them.

So then having demolished the "potato" and "famine" lies, the book refutes the new lie that "it was the rich Irish starving the poor Irish". This lie is a recent vintage. The famine writers adopted it once they could no longer deny the food exports amid starvation. So evidence that the landlords were English, not Irish is Exhibit E which provides their non-Irish family names, their English titles, their English clubs, English addresses, English schools, their British army rankings, etc. and also the fact that mostly between 1900 and 1910 the British government repatriated them to England, leaving but a few remaining in Ireland on vastly reduced estates such as the Duke of Devonshire and Lisemore and the heir of once Lord Brown in Westport.

My great grandfather and family were evicted from their Ballykeely, Durrow County Laois land in 1836 by Lord Ashbrook. Henry Flower was his actual name. My grandfather Fogarty was born on July 16, 1839 in a sceal, in an emergency shelter in the shadow of that lord's gallows near Durrow and the current Lord Ashbrook, Michael L. W. Flower, lives on his Arley Hall estate in Cheshire, England. The vast size of their estate is shown on Exhibit 4. They lists all of Ireland's 3,000-plus acre landlords and the source of that information is The Great Landowners of Great Britain and Ireland 1878.

The book also names the so-called famine writers. It marginalizes by focusing upon and refuting their fabrications, the relatively admirable and least deceptive of them all, Cecil Woodham-Smith. So I both show all of the good work that Cecil Woodham-Smith did in her so-called Great Hunger book and also point out where she covered up her own statements of truth. It's very sad, what was done there. And that part is chapter 11. The cover-up artists who kept the holocaust "perfect". So that's the background of the précis of the book itself.

In Irish America it's important to end the famine falsehood because it has always worked against the education of Irish American children. There's still an element of the old "stupid Irish" around. It's diminishing, but it's still there to a certain extent and everyone who uses the word "famine" is promoting that notion of Irish stupidity. If people won't abandon the false word of famine in the interests of truth itself and to stop bearing false witness against the murdered five million, at least in Irish America, they should do it in order to give their children an even shot at academic admissions to good schools.

Joe: Chris, the work that you've done, as usual when someone does the work to expose the truth of history in terms of what these supposed great powers have done in history, is absolutely shocking. The level of brutality and cynicism and I can only call it pure evil, of the British in Ireland is shocking. That one example you gave where the people who were being starved, where hundreds of tonnes of food, animals, livestock, grain, being shipped out of the country over the period of these years, under British military guard and then local people who were being starved in this way, were being forced to pay a tax to host the military that was taking the food away. It's just almost beyond belief!

Niall: And if they couldn't pay they were kicked out of their homes.

Joe: Yeah, and when they couldn't pay, kicked out of their homes and the other example of that, that I got from your website as well is that when people were dispossessed, when they were thrown out of their homes because they couldn't pay their rent to their landlord who had stolen the land from them, and they were destitute essentially, on the street, at that time there was a law passed as well by the British that anybody out after dark could be shot on sight. Anybody not in their house, would be shot on sight. So you kick someone out of their house, burn their house down, put them on the street with their children, and then pass a law that says if you're on the street without a house, not in your home, we're going to shoot you.

Chris: Mind you, I'm not certain about the shooting, but they certainly could convict you of that...

Joe: Be arrested.

Chris: ...and send them either into transportation to the colonies as a slave or be sent to a workhouse where they were put at hard labour, or execution. You're right. They could be executed. But I must say they were the law and therefore they were free to do whatever they wanted. It's hard to believe, but some of them walked around, one of their taller, stronger members of the force, would walk around and his job would be to be the hangman. They carried around tripods with them to hang people from. But here's a man who would put a rope around someone's neck, put him over his shoulder and then bend forward, strangling them, over his back. This is shocking stuff! Shocking!
It went on before the reformation, by the way. It cannot be blamed upon the reformation.

Joe: Some of the quotes from English officials at the time are very indicative of the type of people that we're talking about. You quote one, Queen Victoria's economist, Nassau Senior, who expressed his fear that existing policies "will not kill more than one million Irish in 1848 and that will scarcely be enough to do much good. One million dead will not be scarcely enough."

Chris: To do much good, yes. So the British government wiped out poverty in Ireland by murdering the poor and they were poor because they had been robbed of their land.

Joe: That's a very psychopathic view of problem/solution. There's all these poor people, well let's just kill them and then you won't have poor people anymore. No poverty. Amazing!

Chris: Yes. To show you where we stand today, there is a priest who founded a parish in Venice, Florida on the west coast, who after reading my book and seeing my material, decided that he would like to put up a memorial, a monument over the holocaust mass grave nearest to his mother's birth place in northwest Mayo. So he contacted his cousins with whom he had visited a few times over there, and he contacted the local monument maker and he got no reply. He then wrote again and this went on for a couple of years, but then finally he heard back from his cousin that the parish priest has told him "Alright, go ahead if you want to do it but carve "famine" into that monument. Do not carve holocaust or genocide." And that's from the parish priest.

Joe: Why? What's his problem?

Chris: Why is right! Why is right! And also why the monument maker going along with this? So there you have it, and that's in one of the major towns in northwest Mayo. So the priest here is sort of stuck and so far he has not been able to move forward. He has given them the wording for the monument. I've suggested that he send it to me, that I can maybe help in that regard. You see, I don't use murder on the memorials that my wife and I put up. I don't use the word murder. I name the regiments and their deeds. I name the regiments who stripped that particular area and what they did. They moved the food, all these livestock and grain, etc., out of that area. For me, that's adequate and to make an accusation or to use adjectives merely gilds the lily and is not even important in my opinion.

Joe: Not necessary.

Niall: It's sufficient. It's systematic extermination.

Joe: Do any of those regiments still exist?

Chris: Yes of course.

Joe: Let's go and put up some signs at their home bases in England, a little bit of history outside their bases.

Chris: Yes, yes, yes. One regiment came from America, at least its recruitment ground was America. They would be loyalists in America, which is kind of sad to think because they were certainly persona non grata in the United States at the same time.

Joe: Yeah, I can imagine. What kind of mentality you'd have to have to be a British loyalist in the US.

Niall: So soon after the War of Independence, yeah.

Chris: Yes indeed. By the way, even as we speak, the current pyre unburnt firing for the July 12th is already in Dervock in northern Antrim and it has many signs. It has big Irish tri-colour flags on it with KAT on them, "Kill All Tiges". Last year in the same location - and these are all going to be burned by the way - they had the same KAT, Kill All Tiges and they had Corrick McShane Dead Man at the very top, on an Irish tri-colour. He's an elected councillor in that district of North County Antrim and some months ago in his absence, and he's got little children, his house was burned to the ground. So the effort to murder him is ongoing today as we speak.

While all of this is going on, the ex-Irish President Mary McAleese just visited the six counties during the week where she participated in the opening of an Orange museum and she's calling for a unity of the Irish and the Loyalists. You wonder, does she not know about the torture that's ongoing in Maghaberry today? Does she not know about the uncharged arrests and imprisonments? What is on her mind?! By the way, the Orangemen have taken to flying the stars and bars, the Confederate flag.

Joe: That's right.

Chris: And they're doing that at a time when the stars and bars are being made illegal in the United States though it'll take a little bit of doing. There's plenty of bigots here yet, anti-black, anti-Catholic, anti-Jewish to this day. But while the KKK and the white citizens councils are being shamed in the United States, the ex-President of Ireland is suggesting that there be a reconciliation with their cousins, both in terms of blood and philosophy...

Joe: Ideology, yeah.

Chris: ...in the north. How can that be? What's going on?

Joe: I may be a bit of an extremist, but the extent of the crimes against the Irish Catholic people by the British and their agents, which include the Orangemen and the protestants in Northern Ireland over the past several hundred years, are far too great for anybody at this point to be talking about "Let's all just move on" because there can be no peace in any country...

Niall: Without truth.

Joe: ...without justice and there can't be any justice without truth. The full truth of the situation has to be exposed.

Chris: Exactly.

Joe: So when you have people like former presidents of Ireland and other bigwigs with these platitudes...

Niall: Sanctimonious...

Joe: ...paramoralistic kind of "Let's all be friends", those people should just be run out of town for the more or less quislings that they are. I can't even listen to them.

Chris: Well then in my opinion, you're forces for great good. May you have power and may you have widespread people listening to your show. How long have you been doing this?

Joe: We've been doing this for a couple of years now but we have a website that's attached to it that's been around for about 10 years. We do stuff on a broad range of topics, all of it focused on the truth about what's going on. You mentioned Anne Cadwallader earlier on and her book Collusion. We're hoping that we're going to interview her in a couple of weeks' time. She's on a speaking tour of Australia but we're going to get her on and she'll give us the sordid details. A lot of people like to turn their face away from that kind of thing but turning your face away from the reality of what the powers that be in this world do to ordinary people isn't going to help anybody. It's not going to help to stop them doing that.

Chris: Well either they're for terrorism or they're against it and if they're going to be covering up her work, they're for terrorism, they're for murder. She names 120 Catholics who were murdered by the British and by Catholic we really mean nationalists. They were not involved in any way with politics or they weren't even necessarily republicans. They were murdered because they were getting along pretty well and that does not suit those who murdered them. 120. And that was just one gang alone.

Joe: Well it's interesting. Another piece of information I came across in researching the so-called troubles, in the early '70s or at the very beginning of the conflict, there was the original IRA and at that time there were loyalist paramilitary groups forming themselves to protect their people. They were afraid of the propaganda. They were falling prey to the propaganda of the IRA coming to kill all the Protestants, etc. and at that point there was a dialogue that was opened up between these loyalist protestant organizations and the members of the original IRA. The two groups realized that they had a common interest because although the Catholics were brutally abused and discriminated against, the protestant working class people also were having a hard time, albeit much less.

Chris: Indeed.

Joe: But those two groups, protestant and Catholic, who would go on to be supposedly archenemies, opened a dialogue between them, the original IRA and one of these loyalist groups and once that had gone a little bit down the road, they started to realize that they had common cause, effectively against British rule in Northern Ireland. The leaders of those loyalist organizations who were engaging in open lines of communication were killed by the British. Now that to me said that the British had a very clear agenda. There would be no collaboration, no uniting of the people of Northern Ireland. They at that point in time had it very clear that they were going to have "civil war" and it wasn't going to be a situation of British occupation of Northern Ireland. That can't be the problem. The problem has to be sectarian conflict and they were determined at that time to create that sectarian conflict. And they did for the next 30 years.

Chris: Yes.

Joe: The British deliberate incited it.

Chris: That is an echo of what happened shortly after the American Revolution. When the Presbyterians in the north, who were still being discriminated against by the government and the government church, the so-called Church of Ireland, the Anglican Church, they were the dissidents of the time. So they led one of the risings in 1798 and they were all essentially wiped out and there were a few heroes among them. The names escape me now. But they led it there, but that particular rising, the one in County Down and Antrim, has been written out of history. It no longer suits the power system because it was two-faced. And they even changed their names from militia to volunteers in emulation of the volunteers of the United States.

Joe: Yeah, it was the elite against the ordinary people not divided but united against the corrupt elite.

Chris: By the way, elite is another word that's very, very common in the United States now and I wish people would find a word to replace elite. Elite suggests the best.

Joe: That they're special.

Chris: Yes, and they're better than, they're superior to. What we have is a criminal operation and we should refer to them as the criminals running our government.

Niall: Well said!

Chris: There are criminals running our government. They're not an elite. The elite in Ireland are in Port Laois prison or Maghaberry or in a grave. They're Ireland's elite.

Joe: Absolutely. And that's been true throughout history in many different countries. Chris, I think we're going to leave it there for this evening. It's been really great to talk to you. I'm amazed at your energy and your drive to uncover this truth because there's so few people who do that in the world today. Relatively speaking, there's very, very few. And on this one topic, it's great to have one person like you who is focused on that one topic and who isn't afraid to go where the facts lead you and to try and expose that because this world needs the truth more than anything right now and more power to you!

Chris: I must say that there is a current Irish printing of the book that is just now done last Friday and it's available in Dublin through the Irish Republican Brotherhood. So anyone in Ireland who wants a copy of my book, look up the Irish Republican Brotherhood. They can Google it or however they want to do it and they can get a copy there. And if this is heard on this side of the Atlantic, the United States, you can call me at 312-664-7651 or fogartyc@att.net. And I want to thank you for this time. We're comrades.

Joe: Absolutely!

Chris: We're both working for the same goal. I'd like for you to contact me otherwise because I'm in touch with a number of people, for example two in Germany and other places, who are very well informed and there should be a unity of people and they should be in communication with each other. If you hadn't reached out to me, I would not know that you exist and that's a shame.

Joe: I know. That's what happens a lot! So we'll do that. We've been in contact already so we'll keep that going. One suggestion was you should put an image or a link for your book on your website.

Chris: Very good point. Very, very good. In fact there are a few errors there. That book mentions some 70 or 72 regiments. I counted a couple twice and I was also using information from the public record that was hard to read. But my book has it exactly right. I'm must both make the corrections there. By the way, on that website, you see merely the barest of bones of the book. The book is comprehensive. I believe it's going to become the definitive work.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Well your website is irishholocaust.org and it's a good website title because it's easy and you don't have to spell it out. Have you thought about getting your book on Amazon.

Chris: In fact I have somebody working on an e-book right now.

Joe: Right. Good.

Chris: It should happen very soon.

Joe: Because we'll do our best to promote it and we'll maybe put a link to it on our website so that people can get access to it and know that it's there. This information really has to get out because it's not just about Ireland, what we're talking about here. This kind of thing has gone on around the world. It was under the British for several hundred years but it seems that the US took over during the last century.

Niall: Yeah, and it's happening to this day.

Joe: And it's happening today.

Niall: We spoke to an Irish American couple a couple of weeks back who were in Libya in 2011 when it was bombed by NATO. The figures they're getting there of the number of dead is at least a 10th of the population was slaughtered in that bombing.

Chris: Oh my god! Oh my god!

Niall: Which completely, completely dwarfs the official figures, if there even are any. So this kind of thing is happening fast forward to right now.

Joe: Yeah, it's got the same source and it's the same problem and it's happened forever and it needs to stop!

Chris: By the way, my wife Mary and I have been spending only about five or ten percent of our efforts on matters Irish. For the last 15 or so years we have been working nearly all our time for justice and against war by Americans. So one of my sign has been picked up by TV across the country. It's Stop Government Crimes with blood drops dripping off the word Government.

Joe: Good job!

Chris: We recognize the situation and we're very, very active already. But in order to stop current genocides and future ones, we should denounce all of them.

Joe: Exactly.

Chris: And my book spells it out.

Joe: It does indeed and people should read it. We're going to promote it. Chris, thanks a million and long may you continue to do what you're doing. Thanks a million for coming on. It's been great to talk to you.

Chris: Thank you both very, very much.

Niall: You're a treasure. God bless you. Bye.

Joe: Have a great evening. Amazing. So we're not going to stay on too much longer here folks. The latest news as our listeners probably know, is that the Greek voters have rejected the bailout offer in a pretty comprehensive fashion, at least 62 percent NO against the IMF.

Niall: Fuck ye.

Joe: Fuck ye, trying to fleece and terrify the Greek people and by implication everybody else on the planet, so that's good news. Obviously we'll have to wait and see where it goes after that, but that's a positive. Everybody can be happy at least for a few hours until we see what they pull out of the hat next. But go Greece!

Niall: Yeah, Go Greece! Two fingers to the troika! There'll be people celebrating in Ireland tonight. There have been protests everywhere in support.

Joe: Yeah absolutely. They haven't mentioned that in the news.

Niall: Of course not, except for RT.

Joe: The mainstream media's been talking about how different people are saying different things. "The Germans and the French and the Latvians and the Estonians, they don't want to pay for Greece's debt. They don't want their money to be taken." As if they do! There have been protests all across European cities in support of Greece against the IMF. And they just ignore this. The media is so duplicitous and so egregiously and obviously lying and ignorant and just duplicitous! It's absolutely ridiculous. They don't even care anymore. People protest for Greece? The media tell you people are protesting against Greece. This has just been turned on its head and it's sickening! It makes me throw up! I need to go and get some ouzo. (laughter)

Niall: We'll see now how much of that was all bluff. Martin Schulz, a Brussels quisling, a current MEP. I think he's in chairman of the European, says "Oh if it's going to be a no, that's it. Monday morning Greeks need to crack open their drachma because they're out of the Euro. So we'll see now. That'll be a bluff because as we've been discussing Joe, they don't actually want Greece to leave. It's a bluff and a counter-bluff so Tsipras and the Greek government are saying "We have no interest in leaving the Euro and the Eurozone" and they probably do. And Brussels is saying "Oh, well if you vote no, that's it. You're out of here!" No, they want them to stay.

Joe: Absolutely. I used an analogy I put up on Facebook today. It's like an abusive husband saying to his abused wife who's planning to leave, who's realizing that this is an abusive situation and this guy's an asshole and she's planning to leave. The husband seeing this happen is saying "Oh you're going to regret it. You better not go. You're no good on your own. You're pathetic. It's going to go horribly for you if you leave this house, if you leave me."

Niall: "If you leave me that's it!"

Joe: Exactly, "that's it. It's all over" and what the abused wife had to do in that situation is remind herself of the abuse, the lies and the history and just stick to her guns and don't forget, don't fall prey to the...

Niall: Emotional manipulation.

Joe: Emotional manipulation and propaganda. That's what's been going on for the past several weeks and it seems that these people have stuck to their guns and more power to them! Thank god somebody somewhere has some sense in this f-ed up world.

Niall: Yeah.

Joe: So anyway, we hope you enjoyed the show folks. Thanks to Chris again. Chris is great. We love him. We're going to have him back on and see what else he's been up to I think.

Niall: This guy has got to be...

Joe: He's the grandad I wish I had.

Niall: He's a great-grandad or something. We didn't get to ask him about it, but he says in his bio that he served in the US army in France shortly after World War II. He's done all of this work in his retirement. He must be pushing 90.

Joe: I don't know.

Niall: We didn't get to ask him about it. That's phenomenal.

Joe: Let's not give him any more years than he has though.

Niall: But that's astonishing and he's just a fountain of information.

Joe: Yeah, he's great. He has experiences that show kind of the way these intel agencies and state actors and stage agents work against people.

Niall: And reach over to Chicago.

Joe: The insidiousness of them. Yeah, they're all over the place, the Anglo-American empire. That's what it's been for a long time and they don't brook anyone messing with their plans for control of absolutely everything and everybody and anybody who comes along and tries to...

Niall: Including history.

Joe: ...yeah and comes along and exposes the truth. There's continuous lines. It's the same thing. What the Brits and the Americans are doing today in Syria, funding ISIS, starting civil wars all over the place and basically slaughtering hundreds of thousand of people like they did in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's a continuous line back to Ireland, a continuous line back to 500 years ago; the same mentality, the same type of people all the way along are doing exactly the same thing and the details of that are very enlightening.

Niall: Extremely! Like his insight into the peace process in Northern Ireland. On its own, what is it? Just a small thing.

Joe: Everybody's out in the streets cheering for the peace process and they don't realize that it's completely manufactured.

Niall: Or the geopolitical context. They knew what was coming, 9/11, war on terror.

Joe: "So let's wrap this one up." They could have wrapped it up years ago before thousands of people were slaughtered by British death squads in Northern Ireland, but "No, we want to slaughter thousands of people with our death squads because that's fun" to these psychos in power. "So we keep that going. At any time we could have just had a peace process and wrapped it up, but we wanted to keep it going." And the Brits probably would have liked to keep it ongoing as a training ground for their military to go over and shoot some civilians here and there, they enjoy doing that kind of thing. The Brits would have liked to keep that going, but Big Brother America came in and said "Listen, we've got a bigger deal coming down the pipeline here. It's called the war on terror. It's got the whole Islamic terrorism thing. We're going to invade lots of countries and we need you to back us up Mr. Blair. So get with the peace process in Northern Ireland. Free up your military. Free up your resources elsewhere. We're done here."

Niall: And that psycho is lauded for his contribution to the peace process in Northern Ireland, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Joe: I'd string him up as quick as look at him. Anyway, one day someone else will do it. The universe will take care of him, god, Mohammed, Buddha, Superman. I don't know. Somebody'll take care of him. Anyway folks, we'll leave it there this week. We hope you enjoyed the show. Thanks again to Chris and check out his website Irishholocaust.org. There's not a lot of stuff on it but it's very interesting. And check out his book as well. We're going to buy a copy to have it on hand. Anybody with any Irish roots has a duty to have this kind of information for posterity, for their children, for their grandchildren.

Niall: We'll be returning to Irish affairs in a couple of weeks, but next week we're speaking with scientist John Casey.

Joe: Maybe! We don't know yet. If not, you'll be speaking to us, or we'll be speaking to each other. So until then, have a good one.

Niall: See you next week.