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This week we're interview Dr. Claus Köhnlein, coauthor of Virus Mania: How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits At Our Expense.

Dr. Köhnlein was a specialist in internal medicine in the Dept. of Oncology, Univ. of Kiel, Germany between 1983 -1993. Since 1993, he has been in private practice, increasingly treating HIV- positive people who decline antiviral drugs.

In this show we cover the HIV/AIDS epidemic, BSE, polio, SARS, bird flu and hepatitis C, the trouble with diagnostic testing, dangerous treatments and the medical industry's myopic focus on viruses as the cause of disease.

Running Time: 01:29:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript:

Tiffany:: Hello everyone and welcome to the SOTT Talk Radio Network's Health and Wellness Show. Today is March the 30th. I'm your host Tiffany. Joining me in our virtual studio from all over the world are Dr. Gaby and Erica. Our regular host Jonathan is hard at work behind the scenes on engineering duties today and Doug will be back next week.

We have a great show for y'all today. If we can work out our technical difficulties, joining us from Germany is our very special guest, Dr. Claus Köehnlein. He's the co-author of the fascinating book Virus Mania - How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics Making Billion Dollar Profits at Our Expense. Dr. Köehnlein is a medical specialist of internal diseases. He completed his residency in the oncology department at the University of Kiel. Since 1993 he has worked in his own medical practice treating hepatitis C and AIDS patients who are sceptical of anti-viral medications. He's also featured in the riveting documentary House of Numbers - Anatomy of an Epidemic which exposes and re-writes the HIV/AIDS epidemic.

So we're going to try and get Dr. Köehnlein on the line with us. We're having some difficulties. So if you guys want to just chit chat for a moment about the book or we can go to the pet health segment.

Gaby: I want to say that I found the book fascinating, Virus Mania because it just addresses what mainstream medicine doesn't address, which is so important or all infectious diseases, which is environmental toxicity and how it's a tremendous stress and has such a huge role in our health, weakens our body and makes it accessible. So that's from a point of view I really enjoyed the book.

Erica: Yes, I enjoyed the book as well. I found it so informative and actually a very easy read. There's lots of great photographs and historical documents included in the book. So you can read a couple of pages and then there's actually documentation about what the author and the journalist is putting forth. Fascinating.

Tiffany:: Hold on a moment. Dr. Köehnlein are you there?

Dr. Köehnlein: Hello?

Tiffany:: Hello Dr. Köehnlein.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, hello Tiffany.

Tiffany:: Hello! Welcome to our SOTT Talk Radio Health and Wellness Show.

Dr. Köehnlein: Hello?

Tiffany:: Hello, can you hear me?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah I just (bad audio) internet is off.

Tiffany:: Oh, your internet.

Dr. Köehnlein: Hello?

Tiffany:: Yes, I'm here. I can hear you. I heard you say that your internet was off.

Gaby: We can hear you now.

Erica: Hello? Are you there. I think we lost him.

Tiffany:: We're going to try and get him back on the line.

Dr. Köehnlein: Hello?

Tiffany:: Hello, I'm here.

Dr. Köehnlein: We have a problem with the internet it seems to be for some reason. I don't know why.

Tiffany:: Okay. Are you able to continue or is it completely non-functional? Sounds like it's not functioning very well.

Gaby: Yeah, the change in times there when I'm confused.

Tiffany:: Maybe we can go ahead and go with the pet health segment while we get this worked out.

Gaby: Okay.

Tiffany:: So here is Zoya's pet health segment for March the 30th.

Zoya: Hello and welcome to the natural pet health segment of the Health and Wellness Show. Today we are going to talk about kidney diseases. Kidney disease nowadays is one of the most common metabolic diseases in dogs and cats but identified more frequently in cats than dogs. Some cat breeds have a predisposition to chronic kidney disease, like Maine Coon, Abyssinian, Siamese, Russian Blue and Burmese. But dogs and cats may develop chronic kidney disease at any age but it is more frequent in cats older than nine years and male cats may develop signs of chronic kidney disease at a younger age than females. Males 12 years and females 15 years.

In general causes of chronic kidney disease include malformation of the kidneys at birth, chronic bacterial infections of the kidneys, high blood pressure, immune system disorders, exposure to toxins, chronic urinary tract obstructions. Some infectious diseases like feline leukemia can also damage kidneys. Also heavy metal exposure and as I said, other chemicals. Also of course a poor quality diet, especially dried and processed foods that absorbs water from the body in order to digest food. It can also be stress, fear as an emotion is also connected with kidney dysfunction. But even with all the potential triggers of kidney disease, often the exact cause can't be identified.

So how exactly to kidneys start to fail? The kidneys are made up of thousands of microscopic tubes called nephrons. The job of nephrons is the filter and re-absorb food. In young, healthy animals there are so many nephrons available that some are held in reserve. As the animal ages, or for example if there's any kidney damage, some nephrons stop functioning and the reserve nephrons take over and start functioning for them. At some point in an animal's life all of the nephrons that can function are functioning. With no nephrons left in reserve, if damage to the kidneys progresses, signs of chronic kidney disease will start to re-appear. Because of the system of those reserve nephrons there are no signs of kidney deficiency until the damage is really significant. When two-thirds of the nephrons are lost the kidneys will no longer be able to conserve water and the animal will pass large amounts of urine. By the time that the creatinine levels are elevated in the pet's blood work 75 percent of the nephrons in most cases are gone.

So what are the symptoms of chronic kidney disease, particularly in cats? It can be frequent peeing. While you might think that this is a sign your cat's kidneys are working well, it actually means your cat may no longer be able to hold water. Peeing outside the litter box is another signal. It can be drinking a lot of water. It means that your cat is trying to replace the fluid they lost through peeing. Bacterial infections of the blood are in kidneys which develop more easily in the diluted pee produced by failing kidneys. You can observe weight loss or decreased appetite. You can see vomiting, diarrhoea and bloody and cloudy pee. It can be mouth ulcers, especially on the gums and tongue. It can be bad breath with an ammonia-like odour, a brownish coloured tone and dry coat, constipation, weakness and indifference.

Basically all those sign indicate accumulation of toxins in the body. Kidneys are unable to remove toxins from the body so the body tries to remove those toxins from any means available, through skin, through mouth, and other things, bad breath and stuff like this.

Now chronic kidney disease is staged depending on the severity. The severity is estimated based on the level of waste products in the blood and abnormalities in the urine. And usually severity of the disease is itemized by four stages. All the stages are characterized by creatinine levels in the blood. The creatinine in the first stage is less than 1.6 mg per decilitre and stage for is characterized by creatinine levels of over 5 mg per decilitre. The amount of protein passed in urine and the presence of elevated blood pressure also factors into the stages process.

So how to treat your pet after you've established that they have kidney damage. First of all, there are fancy and extensive dry food solutions for treating kidney disease but as it was explained, they re based on the concept of pets, particularly cats, not drinking enough, especially when on a dry food diet. So these special dry food cats have higher concentration of salt to increase thirst and cause pets to drink more and therefore to eliminate toxins at a high rate, a sort of jump-start of the kidneys. But it is completely moronic especially considering the fact that dry food probably caused the problem in the first place.

Another ridiculous notion is that in case of kidney damage protein intake should be restricted. It may be so, but only in case of low-grade processed protein. Ideally, in order to treat kidney problems, you need to feed your pet a good variety of high quality proteins, ideally raw. Do not feed beef, buffalo or bison as they have a higher content of inflammatory factors which affect the immune system function. Avoid so called low protein, kidney or similar commercial diets. And let me reiterate, avoid dry food. Dry food stresses the kidneys by stealing water from the rest of the body, creating a persistent state of dehydration. If you do not want to feed raw, a canned diet is better than dry, but canned food can never measure up to natural food.

Regarding visitations to a veterinarian, routine chemistry, complete blood count and urinalysis are essential. Bacterial culture of the urine should always be done to rule out infection. And ultrasound will rule out kidney stones or changes in the shape and size of kidneys or even a tumour. But what is super important is to insure that your cat or dog is well hydrated. If you pull the skin of the neck and it stays up for longer than one second your pet may be dehydrated. Simple administration of an electrolyte solution, such as lactated Ringers or sodium chloride will help in more advanced stages. Drinking a lot of water may not help to prevent dehydration. Ideally, do not use any anti-inflammatory drugs such as aspirin as it is contra-indicated in patients with kidney disease.

Now my teacher at the university recommended enalapril, a drug that is medication that modulates the blood pressure and basically it is used a maintenance drug. But according to my research some naturopaths say that enalapril is detrimental to the long-term prognosis and causes numerous side effects.

Also it seems stress is one of the possible reasons for the development of the chronic kidney disease. It would be good to spend quality time with your pets relaxing or being active. Good exercise, not too little or not too much is a must. Ideally it is recommended to do two walks a day for dogs and access to the outdoors or the balcony for cats. And don't forget to recheck your pet's condition regularly every three to six months at a minimum.

Well this is it for now. I hope this segment was helpful. Good-bye and have a great day.

Erica: Thank you Zoya.

Tiffany:: Thank you very much for that Zoya. We're still working on trying to get Dr. Köehnlein on the line. Please bear with us while we sort through these technical difficulties.

Gaby: Well I wanted to make another comment about the book because for me it was a huge reality check with my background with mainstream medicine. I've always been very critical about diagnostic tests. I think especially in North America there's a huge influence where diagnostic tests are very relied upon. For a doctor coming up I always thought that diagnostic tests were reliable and reading his book I got such a huge reality check. I hope the doctor will be able to comment on that because I just realized that no, it's not reliable at all. I guess I need a lot of reality checks with this book.

Doug: Well maybe in the meantime while we're waiting for him to get connected we could cover a couple of the latest health topics that have shown up over the course of the week. I saw a really interesting video that actually, believe it or not, is up on, Time Magazine which is a pretty mainstream source. It's an interview on French television with the television station called Canal Plus and it's an advocate for genetically modified foods. He's apparently part of a group that's promoting the genetically modified golden rice which has been modified to have higher amounts of vitamin A in it. Anyway, he's going on about how safe glyphosate is, which is the pesticide made by Monsanto, otherwise known as Roundup. He's talking about how safe it is and all the news recently that it's been increasing cancer rates in Argentina. He's arguing that that's not the case and he says that it's so safe that you can drink a glass of it.

You've got to love this French reporter, who says to him "Well we have a glass right here. Would like to drink some." And of course he's like "No, no, I'm not going to do that." And he said "So then it's dangerous." He's like "No, no, it's not dangerous. You can drink a whole quart of it and it won't hurt you." And the reporter said "Well then why don't you drink it?" And he just continues to completely refuse it despite the fact that he says it's completely safe. He says that even people have tried to commit suicide by drinking it and it doesn't actually happen. So he ends up walking out on the interview because well obviously that contradiction can't stand. So I just thought that was pretty interesting. You can find that on

Gaby: Yeah, he was saying "I'm not stupid and people are failing miserably trying to commit suicide with that." (Laughter) He won't touch it.

Erica: Well I think it's really interesting timing Doug because of this whole new World Health Organization document that came out about glyphosate and just the negative impacts of it and basically showing what we've been covering on Signs for several years about the severe toxicity of this type of herbicide chemical. Hopefully if we can get the doctor on he can shed some light on previous chemicals that had the same kind of effect on human health. But if anybody wants to check in about this new World Health document that came out there's a great article on SOTT called "What's your daily value of glyphosate?" by Catherine Frompovich and it just talks about the science that's coming out. For people who don't know, glyphosate is the highest-used herbicide in the world. And it just keeps going up year-by-year. We should probably have a whole other show just focusing on just glyphosate and Roundup itself because it seems like the video that you talked about is just damage control.
Doug: It was an attempt at damage control anyway.

Gaby: I don't know if it's related but the last couple of weeks WHO made a link with Monsanto's glyphosate with cancer, it was in mainstream news everywhere. And Monsanto reacted like that they should withdraw that connection.

Doug: Just like "What?!?!" Well I loved the guy when he's offered this glass of glysophate he's like "No, I'm not stupid." But basically that's saying all of those consumers are stupid because they continue to eat it on a regular basis. So he's like "No, I'm not going to drink it. I'm not stupid." But basically by implication he's saying that everybody who is taking it in on a regular basis is stupid. So it's kind of telling in that way.

Gaby: Yeah, it was great of the French host to have that bottle available. In other news this week I found an article related to our last show on salt, meat and benefits. It's titled Low Salt Diets are Deadly and they quote a couple of studies that even small decreases in sodium content in the diet increased your risk for cardiovascular events and death. But what I found very interesting is that people on a salt-restricted diet, only after one week, seven days exactly, they develop insulin resistance which is related with obesity, metabolic syndrome and very poor health. So yes, there is a call to the FDA to stop putting restrictions and stuff on salt. They're just going to kill everybody. And that was on our show.

Erica: Yeah, so don't eat salt but drink glyshopate. (Laughter)

Doug: Yeah, exactly. Sounds like a great meal.

Tiffany:: Keep going guys. We're still working on it.

Erica: Well Gaby, maybe you can share with us a little bit of bio-research?

Gaby: Well as some of you guys know, it is one of my favourite topics. That's why I enjoyed this book so much. What I'm mostly interested in is because the greatest shock genomic science, the science of DNA and our genome and epigenetics, they found the human genome contains more viral than human genes, more virus DNA than human genes. It is estimated that only one percent of our genome codes or proteins, and the rest is just computer-like "junk DNA" but now in the latest years researchers have seen that these viral "junk DNA" are actually very reactive. It has epigenetic properties. It has a role in cancer development. It also is related with stem cell research.

So there is a lot of research going on but the conclusion is that "junk DNA" is not junk DNA after all. It's very active. And what researchers have seen is that this junk DNA for the most part has viral properties, like retrovirus properties and stuff I was hoping that the doctor could explain with more detail because he does that in the book actually. I find that very interesting because there also the fact that toxic foods on the food pyramid that is recommended by the USDA as a base, there is grains, there is wheat, and wheat has anti-nutrients that have also viral properties. It's called lectins. The lectin from wheat pretty behaves likes a virus in the body. So yes, there is a lot of correlation that most of our health problems could be from getting these DNA activating in a very unhealthy way, like a stress response pretty much.

Tiffany:: Okay, Dr. Gaby?

Gaby: Yes we can hear you.

Tiffany:: Yes doctor. I think we have Dr. Köehnlein on the line.

Dr. Köehnlein: Hello.

Tiffany:: Welcome Dr. Köehnlein. Sorry the delay and all the trouble, but I'm glad you're finally here with us.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, I'm sorry but today there is no internet. I don't know what happened. There is no internet.

Tiffany:: Well that's okay now. You're here with us.

Dr. Köehnlein: I hear you, yes.

Tiffany:: Let's go ahead and get our interview started. I've already given your bio. The book again, it's called Virus Mania-How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics Making Billion Dollar Profits at Our Expense. It's written by Dr. Köehnlein and his co-author Torsten Engelbrecht. Before we get started with the interview if any of our listeners want to call in you can do so. You can call 718-508-9499.

Okay, Dr. Köehnlein, can you give us a bit of a background on what inspired you and your co-author to write the book Virus Mania?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes. I'm actually from a very orthodox oncology clinic where I did my residency. When the AIDS epidemic came to Germany we had a patient there who was suffering from lymphoma and all of a sudden they told me "This guy has AIDS now". And I asked why he has AIDS. Yesterday he had lymphoma. And they said "Yes, well he has a positive HIV test." And there I said that's not an epidemic in the classical sense. It's just an epidemic of a new test because the clinical symptoms is exactly the same. It's lymphoma, it's nothing else.

It was my starter, so to say. And nowadays we know 27 known diseases which are called AIDS in the presence of a new antibody test, the HIV test. So it's not a new epidemic in the classical sense, especially not in Africa where a lot of people react positive to this test, but these are cross-reactions because it reacts positive to tuberculosis and leprosy and things like that, which is very common in Africa. That's why they have a high incidence of HIV. That doesn't mean that they are highly promiscuous or how they want to propagate this test. These are just cross-reactions. That's nothing else.

Tiffany:: So the theory is there's a virus called HIV that causes AIDS. But in your book you go further into it and how that's not...

Dr. Köehnlein: We say that's indeed a lifestyle problem, not an infectious problem, but it's a lifestyle problem. And these guys suffer from infectious diseases but it's not HIV which makes the immune system go down, but it's the lifestyle of these people. And in fact it was the first idea doctors had when AIDS appeared because these people were suffering from what we call AIDS now, were completely (bad audio) homosexuals who had spent at least 10 years going to parties and taking poppers and amphetamines and things like that. These were the real AIDS victims at that time.

And people then called it GRIDS for gay-related-immune-deficiency. And all of a sudden them along came Gallo and told the world that they had found the virus which is the probable cause of AIDS and they gave this talk at this press conference. They gave it to the world and everybody believed it from that moment on and from that moment on a positive HIV test meant that you are at risk to get AIDS.

And then the next problem came, the therapy against AIDS. That was this AZT problem. We gave AZT to people who were HIV positive, who indeed had antibodies to this virus so they have no problem with this virus because if you develop antibodies to a virus, you are fine. But from this moment on when Gallo said they had found the probable cause of AIDS everybody read antibody the virus was subject to AZT treatment. And AZT treatment is a very toxic therapy which indeed creates the problem which was said that HIV does. That means AZT suppresses the bone marrow. It suppresses it lower and lower and it kills dividing cells. It's from cancer therapy, AZT treatment. It's azidothymidine. It stops DNA so it kills every cell. And the dosage at that time, we started with a dose which was much too high. It was 1,500 mgs and doctors didn't notice the damage because they thought AIDS is the terrible problem and when people wasted away doctors thought at that time it was because of HIV of course. But no doctor believes that the patient is suffering from the treatment of course. The doctor has always believed that the patient dies in spite of the treatment, not because of it. Those patients HIV positive at that time died because they got this 1,500 mg AZT.

And we noticed years later that the dosage was much too high. There was a study published in the Lancet, the famous Concord study and this study showed that those who took more AZT had the higher mortality rates. From that moment on we stopped the AZT and then new drugs came on the market which have less side effects.

Tiffany:: So has the HIV virus ever been isolated?

Dr. Köehnlein: Well it's possible that they have isolated it but even there, are some questions. But I would say they have isolated a virus, that's all. And they called it then HIV so that everybody knows what it does, but they just isolated a virus from a patient who was suffering from lymphoma. That's all.

Tiffany:: So really.

Dr. Köehnlein: And they gave them this name then.

Tiffany:: So this is just some fragment of something that they called HIV...

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, some fragment of DNA. The isolating business was not very good. Even Montagnier suggested that it hasn't been properly isolated.

Tiffany:: Okay.

Dr. Köehnlein: Who got the Nobel Prize for it.

Tiffany:: So there are all these people that are diagnosed with AIDS, allegedly caused by the HIV virus but without the harmful treatments they would be still alive? Or they'd be healthier? Like say for instance Magic Johnson?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, we certainly killed a whole generation of AIDS patients with these high dosages without even noticing it. That's a big problem with this therapy. Magic Johnson is still alive. He was smart enough to feel that AZT wasn't good for him and he stopped it immediately. And he won a gold medal afterwards. But other victims were not so lucky, like Rudolph Nureyev who took AZT and Arthur Ashe who took AZT and the singer of Queen. Who was it again?

Tiffany:: Freddie Mercury.

Dr. Köehnlein: Freddie Mercury, yes. He had of course some illicit drugs as well but then he got the legal drugs and that was the rest for him.

Tiffany:: So I'm trying to wrap my brain around what exactly is a virus. It sounds like it's just fragments of DNA that they sample from people and then they give it a name. I was reading...

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes, but the problem today is that you don't need an electron microscope. They have genetic engineering and they do it with gene sequencing. They have viruses there and then create whole evolution trees of virus without even seeing it under the microscope. That's not a good idea I think. I think especially if you want to make sure that the virus is causally linked to the disease at least once you have to show the virus in the infected tissue. If you can't do it, it's just an assumption, a hypothesis that this virus does any harm. That's not the vice - how you say?

Tiffany:: So basically these doctors are working on an assumption because I was reading over Koch's postulates, the four postulates.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes, Koch yes.

Tiffany:: The first one that says that the organism has to be present in very stage of the disease and the organism has to be isolated from the host and cultivated in a culture and then the samples must cause the same disease when injected into a lab animal and then the inoculated animal must have the same organism as found in the original host. So it sounds like, at least with the AIDS virus that none of these Koch's postulates have been met.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, that's true. They tried to do it. They tried to isolate HIV and they injected what they isolated into chimpanzees at that time. But the chimpanzees didn't come down with AIDS. They are still living. One of them was written in the Science "Chimp finally comes down with AIDS" and this animal developed diarrhoea. So all the other animals never got AIDS. So there is no animal model for it.

Tiffany:: There's so much to this AIDS epidemic...

Dr. Köehnlein: We suggested then to treat the animals with AZT and then we would have seen that AZT is the toxic problem and not the virus.

Tiffany:: Well your book goes into several other viral illnesses besides AIDS. We could talk about AIDS all day.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes.

Tiffany:: But if our listeners want to find out more about this, definitely pick up a copy of the book Virus Mania and you can check how...

Dr. Köehnlein: The big problem today is hepatitis C. It was the following epidemic and it's even more curious because the hepatitis C, nobody has seen the hepatitis C virus.

Tiffany:: Yeah.

Dr. Köehnlein: I must begin from the beginning.

Tiffany:: Go ahead.

Dr. Köehnlein: There is hepatitis which is called non-A, non-B. It was not A, it was not B. We know the A and B but there was another sort of hepatitis, the so-called post-transfusion hepatitis after you get a blood sample, perhaps infusion, then some people developed hepatitis, the so-called non-A, non-B. And the virologists thought there might be another infectious agent and they wanted to find it. And then they injected blood from a patient with the non-A/non-B into chimpanzees and looked at the animals. But the animals didn't get sick and nothing happened. Then they killed the animals, looked at the liver and couldn't find anything.

In the end they found a little string of RNA or DNA which didn't seem to belong to the genetic code of the animal and they thought maybe that's the virus. They engineered an antibody against it and this hepatitis C antibody - this was called then hepatitis C and everybody reacts against this antibody nowadays is said "Well you have a problem. You have hepatitis C and you will develop liver cirrhosis most probably in the next 30 years. And this is the long incubation period. With viruses there are no such incubation periods, not years and not decades; It's weeks normally.

But in these cases they say "Well sorry, it's 10 years until hepatitis C. It's 30 years" and then the pharmaceutical industry is very quick to develop some other new drugs. Now they sell a new drug for $1,000 per pill. That's the recent development, you pay $1,000 for one pill to treat a disease which is not even there! People have no symptoms. In most cases they have no symptoms at all.

Tiffany:: So is this another case of the AZT treatment for AIDS?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes! The same with the AZT - we have learned, I would say, we have learned to do the dosage so that people can survive it because even the pharmaceutical industry has no interest to kill the people because then they are not taking any pills anymore.

Tiffany:: And if you're not taking pills you can't pay.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, we have to have the patients chronically ill. That's what makes money. So we need to make them chronically ill and we give them these antiviral drugs which don't kill them and we have laboratory parameters which is the so-called viral load, which you can lower with these drugs and the FDA. In that moment when you can show that you can lower viral load with the drugs, then the FDA approves the new drugs and then the pharmaceutical industry can earn money with it. And that's the development of the last years, Gilead has these new drugs and they have millions of profits because of these drugs, billions I would say because HCD positive people are not very aware. In some countries you have the prevalence of one percent. That's a lot of your population.

Tiffany:: I wanted to offer up a quote from the book, Virus Mania...

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah.

Tiffany:: ...just to clarify some things for our listeners. This is on page 27 of the book and it says:
This book's central focus is to steer this discussion back to where, as any scientific debate, it belongs, on the path to prejudice-free analysis of facts. To clarify one more time, the point is not to show that diseases like cervical cancer, SARS, AIDS or hepatitis C do not exist. No serious critic of reigning virus theories has any doubt that people or animals are or could become sick although many are not really sick at all but are only defined as sick and then are made sick or killed. Instead the central question is what really causes these diseases known as cervical cancer, avian flu, SARS, AIDS and hepatitis. Is it a virus or is it a virus in combination with other causes or is it not a virus at all but rather something very different.
Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah.

Tiffany:: So it seems like there's a singular fixation on viruses while they ignore all the other factors that contribute to illness, like the health status of the person, their nutritional status, the sanitation, maybe some vaccine injuries, environmental poisoning, the improper treatment like with the antivirals and the AZT. Or sometimes they'll rename or reclassify a disease as something else?

Dr. Köehnlein: Well these people don't know because it's always a little bit hidden. But if you can make a disease an infectious disease, then the millions are flowing because then you need the antibody business, you have therapy business and the vaccination business in the background, ja?

That's why for instance also Ebola is such a big thing. In reality it's not a big thing. It's a small thing in Africa where a lot of people are suffering from nutrition problems and have a weak immune system and of course they are susceptible for any kinds of viral diseases and bacterial diseases. So you always find there are sick people. But what you should do is to make the hygienical and the nutrition situation better in these countries and then you would see that infectious diseases fade away, like they did in all the developed countries. You can look at it in that moment when there's no war, when the people are getting better, when they have enough to eat, then the infectious diseases go down. But if you look at the statistical curves, then you see that the infectious disease faded away before vaccination. So that's the true reason for infectious diseases to go away, that the immune system of the population is getting better, not the vaccination. The vaccination is just creating problems. It's useless.

Tiffany:: Well there's been huge, huge vaccine campaigns going on in Africa. Do you think that that could play a part in this Ebola outbreak?

Dr. Köehnlein: Excuse me? I didn't...

Tiffany:: There is a very large vaccine...

Dr. Köehnlein: Vaccination...

Tiffany:: ...campaigns that's been going on in Africa for years and years. Do you think that that could be playing a part in the Ebola outbreak?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, Bill Gates is one of the persons who's urging people to get the polio vaccine, for instance. And especially polio, we have in our book as well, it's most probably an intoxication disease, not an infectious disease as well. We looked at the data of polio very carefully and when you look at them, then you see that the serious polio epidemics occurred when DDT was used in very large amounts because at that time it was not known that DDT is a very serious toxin to the central nervous system. And it accumulates in the nutritional curtain - how you say it in English? It accumulates.

Tiffany:: Yeah.

Dr. Köehnlein: So in the end you have it in the breast milk and you feed your offspring with it. And then you can get such high concentrations that it's really damaging the nervous system. That could be the real cause of polio. And when you look at the curves, the polio disappeared with DDT disappearance because when we knew, the toxicologists found out that it is a very serious toxin and then we used it much more carefully. And then the curve goes down in front of the vaccination. The vaccination followed.

Tiffany:: Erica, are you there? Did you have a question about glyphosate?

Dr. Köehnlein: About what?

Erica: Yeah.

Tiffany:: Our co-host Erica wants to ask a question.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes?

Erica: Yes, I was fascinated by your chapter on the polio vaccine and just for listeners, it's called Polio, Pesticides, DDT and Heavy Metals Under Suspicion and you just...

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes, yes.

Erica: ...addressed a lot of my questions there. We had a discussion before the show and you may or may not have heard that portion of the show, but we were wondering if now the new types of herbicides, like glyphosate in Monsanto's Roundup product, if these are the same kinds of things that we see with DDT, that these new herbicides that they're saying are safe enough to drink, could be causing all these immune-suppressed issues, gut bacteria, proliferation of negative gut bacteria and whatnot. We're interested on your take on that.

Dr. Köehnlein: Well I didn't get into these problems with Monsanto and the gene problems, but it is in fact possible that this creates a lot of problems as well but I'm not familiar with that. I just checked the polio problem and when we checked it, first I had a discussion with my co-author and I asked him not to put it in the book because polio is the disease which the orthodox medicine believes has been eradicated with vaccination and it's the infectious disease. And when we put it in the book, no orthodox will ever read the book, we thought. But then I looked in our textbook and found that the clinical symptoms of polio is indistinguishable from poisoning of heavy metal and infected feeds and so on. And then we looked, like we did with AIDS, we looked for an animal model and we couldn't find one. There is no animal model in polio as well. They just grew a virus on kidney cells and then made a vaccination against that virus. It was a normal enterovirus and when you look at the book, only one percent of those who have this virus get sick. So it's very probable that this is another mistake in medical textbooks. But it's still in there, unfortunately.

Tiffany:: Okay, can we switch to the Bovine spongiform encephalopathy?

Dr. Köehnlein: Encephalopathy, yes.

Tiffany:: Or BSE which is responsible for the mad cow outbreak some years back in 2001.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tiffany:: Can you give us some more information on what was really behind that?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah. Most probably that was another case of intoxication because it was indeed a discussion in the BSE investigation but you can see that there were members of the government and members of those who make these pesticides from the pharmaceutical cartel and they didn't want to make this idea come out because the idea or suggestion was from some scientists that indeed the high dosage of phosphate, which is an organophosphate, which was applied on the cows' neck against the warble fly, which is an insect - you know that one? The warble fly?

Tiffany:: Yeah. So they spread this...

Dr. Köehnlein: The flies make a disease in the cows that the milk production goes down and so on, the animals get sick. And that's why the farmers were obliged to put these pesticides in a higher dosage in the neck of the cows. It was indeed a legal thing. So the government decided that the farmers had to increase the dosage of these phosphates in England, Northern Ireland and Switzerland and in those countries we found BSE after a while. And it's very likely that these toxins caused the problem. But then somebody had the idea that it's infectious meat which the cows got for food. They forgot the fact that these animal meals, they sent thousands of tonnes of this food to the Middle East and nobody got BSE there. So the epidemiology talks something different, talks direct against it. So it's much more likely that it was an intoxication problem also.

Tiffany:: So everyone was afraid to eat...

Dr. Köehnlein: So the BSE test was...

Tiffany:: ...hamburgers for no reason except that the...

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, yeah. Nobody got meat anymore here, in Germany also. The meat market was down and had terrible consequences. Some farmers suicided and it was a very terrible time. And they also had these predictions which never came true. They had these predictions that all those people who ate this beef would get this BSE. You remember that? They had the same predictions with the bid for AIDS at that time because for AIDS they said "Well it's infectious, it's sexually transmitted and it's deadly" and then they had some very clever mathematicians who created some new exponential curves and then you see that after 10 years almost everybody in Germany would have contracted AIDS and two years later is dead. But you all know that this has not come true.

Tiffany:: No.

Dr. Köehnlein: But the predictions were all completely wrong and that's another sign that the hypothesis is wrong, if the predictions don't come true.

Tiffany:: Probably the only prediction that came true is that they would make billions of dollars, which they did.

Dr. Köehnlein: Exactly. Yes they did. With the BSE test they also made some millions, but this thing stopped here then. But Prusiner who got the Nobel Prize for the idea that these prions were in this meat, he wanted to have BSE tests in humans and then indeed we could have had the same situation. If that had developed then every blood conserve would have been tested against BSE and then everybody who has got the blood conserve would have to do a BSE test and so on and so on until you would have, after a while, maybe some pharmaceutical industry would have developed some anti-prionic treatment and then you would have had the same situation like in AIDS. But while this obviously stopped because the new variant of the Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease never appeared, only in very, very few cases. I found the picture in the Lancet from the distribution of BSE and another picture I found in Nature from the distribution of the new variant of the Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and it was indeed an inverse correlation. So you found the new variant of the Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in the north of Scotland and you found BSE in the south of England. So it was a reverse correlation that really showed that these both have nothing to do with each other.

Tiffany:: And the Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, that's the disease...

Dr. Köehnlein: The Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease is a genetical disease and it had nothing to do with infectious products.

Tiffany:: In your book you also talked about SARS, severe acute respiratory syndrome.

Dr. Köehnlein: SARS, yes.

Tiffany:: Yes. Can you talk about that and how it was tied to the scrap technology that was going on in Guangdong Province in China?

Dr. Köehnlein: I didn't get the last sentence?

Tiffany:: In your book you talk about the scrap technology workers...

Dr. Köehnlein: SARS, yes.

Tiffany:: ...that were in Guangdong Province in China and how that was tied into the SARS outbreak.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, in SARS they found the microbe which is indeed a harmless microbe, but the people in China are working under very bad conditions and so even a harmless virus can create problems with pneumonia. But the most important thing I think in SARS was another case of over-treatment because in this respiratory distress system, the symptoms when people are having real pneumonia, sometimes doctors take cortisone and ribavirin which they did in these cases and that can be really a dilemma because on the one side cortisone helps if you have a real problem with your breathing because it kills lymphocytes. But in the same moment it suppresses your immune system which you need in this situation very urgently. I think there was even the man who has given the name, the first victim, what was his name again?

Tiffany:: I think he was a doctor.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, he was a doctor. Carlo Urbani.

Tiffany:: Yes.

Dr. Köehnlein: Carlo Urbani. He described this problem and he died of it. And we looked at the treatment he received and it was ribavirin plus cortisone. Ribavirin is a guanosine (ribonucleic) analog which would kill cells.

Tiffany:: And that's an antiviral as well.

Dr. Köehnlein: It's another antiviral drug which is given in a very high dosage and I'm really afraid that Carlo Urbani died because of the treatment; not in spite of the treatment but because of the treatment. He made it famous.

Tiffany:: What about bird flu or H5N1? About mid-2005 a hundred million chickens were dead, but it sounds like the majority of those were killed in mass exterminations to prevent the spread of the alleged H5N1 virus. What are some of the factors that played out in the bird flu epidemic?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah. Bird flu is another problem. It's very old. We know this problem since many years and it's a problem of the bad situation, of the animals. They are treated with many, many antibiotics. And then they are of course very susceptible to disease. They die very easily if they get any viruses. But the problem was that some people said that it could be transmittable to humans and that humans died because of bird flu. And there again we have this problem with the over-treatment and also the creating of an epidemic is seen here again with distribution of new antibody tests. It was another test epidemic, like the swine flu. They just created a new test and we have always flu. Flu is very widespread. You can always find flu and if you do a test against someone with symptoms and it's positive then you say it's a bird flu. You can't differentiate it clinically. It's the same clinical disease and it's just separated by another test. So you always can create the flu.
A new flu epidemic means a new antibody test, like they tried again with the swine flu which was nonsense. There are no swine flu anywhere.

Tiffany:: So are these tests even calibrated for the specific viruses that they're looking for?

Dr. Köehnlein: Excuse me?

Tiffany:: Are the tests calibrated for the specific viruses?

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes, for one specific virus.

Tiffany:: Okay. Because I was wondering exactly what they were studying when they run these tests if all they're dealing with are DNA fragments. So they have to calibrate each test for each DNA fragment that they find.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah.

Tiffany:: Okay.

Dr. Köehnlein: Always to calibrate a new test against some fragments of DNA or RNA and that's the problem of modern genetics. They never do Koch's postulates. They never do this causal relationship. They just rely on correlation. But correlation is not causation. It's a very simple statement but nowadays we believe in correlation. If there's a good correlation then you say A is caused by B, but it's not.

Tiffany:: Gaby, did you have a question about testing?

Dr. Köehnlein: About what?

Tiffany:: Dr. Gaby has a question.

Gaby: I had two or three questions. Maybe you can expend. In the book you explain about the concept of exogenous infected particles versus endogenous ones. Can you explain a little bit more?

Dr. Köehnlein: Excuse me I cannot understand.

Tiffany:: Can you explain the difference between exogenous particles and endogenous particles?

Dr. Köehnlein: Oh yeah. Well we have endogenous viruses in our cells. That's what Professor (Etienne) de Harven described in his scientific life. And when the cell dies for some reason then these endogenous viruses go into the blood stream and if we have the sequences we react with the HCV antibody test, then you are HCV antibody positive after a while. So you can be HCV positive without getting any blood transfusions or without getting any contact from the outside. You can reactive positive endogenous. And that's probably also true for HIV. It's just a reaction against DNA or RNA which is free in your bloodstream and many people have free DNA in the blood. And if it has sequences which are picked up by these antibody tests then your serum reacts antibody positive after a while. But that doesn't have a clinical meaning.

Tiffany:: So essentially all of us have these particles within our bloodstream and these tests are just picking that up. But that would just mean it's a false positive test, that doesn't mean that you're actually...

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, it's a false positive and there's indeed a correlation between HIV positivity and disease. There is a correlation, but it's not a causation. So people who have free DNA in their serum sometimes have problems like cancer for instance, some people are suffering from cancer because of the high turnover of the cells you have these fragments in your serum and you are more probable to react positive. That's why it's a surrogate marker, as we call it. But it's not causally linked to disease. That's the problem. And many people who are HIV positive and have no other risk factors, they are not at risk for anything. They are not at risk for getting AIDS.

That's what I see in my long clinical practice. Only those have the risk for problems with the immune system who have taken drugs for a long time. Those are indeed at risk for getting infectious diseases and for instance of getting fungal diseases which can get really dangerous. And in these cases antiviral treatment nowadays helps because it's fungistatic as we say. It also kills the fungus and then people can get better who have been sick before. That's why the discussion about the HIV/AIDS hypothesis is so hard to do with orthodox doctors because they have seen nowadays people who obviously are HIV positive who get the antiviral drugs and were better afterwards. So really as a doctor who does not have this background, the young doctors nowadays believe that HIV is a treatable disease because you have these cases. But in reality HIV has causally nothing to do with anything.

Tiffany:: So when people who have these fungal infections start the antiviral drugs and it kills off the fungus and they feel better but they continue with the antiviral drugs, is that a problem?

Dr. Köehnlein: They should stop it then.

Tiffany:: Yeah.

Dr. Köehnlein: Stop it after a while and change the lifestyle because most of them have a lifestyle which creates these problems. If people can change the lifestyle and have a healthy lifestyle, that means they sleep enough, they have enough food, they have a good exercise program then they will recover probably. But if you stick with antiviral drugs for your life, well nowadays you can stand these drugs much better in the old AZT days, but still you are aging much faster because you are always subject to a DNA killing treatment.

Tiffany:: Okay Gaby did you have another question? You said you had a few questions.

Gaby: Yeah. Dr. Köehnlein, can you explain the influence of the CDC in the field of virology? The Centre for Disease Control of the United States?

Dr. Köehnlein: You mean the role of the CDC.

Gaby: Yes.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah. The CDC is superfluous many times since infectious diseases disappeared in the developed countries. We have the same CDCs here in Germany, which is the Robert Koch Institute and in reality we have no troubles with infectious diseases because everybody has enough to eat and everybody is fine. So the situation of the people is very good. Infectious diseases are a very low percentage of the causes of death in the developed countries. Most people die of heart and cancer disease, not infectious diseases.

The CDC and other companies claim that the vaccination programs have made this good situation where infectious diseases disappeared, indeed if you look at the statistics you can easily see and find out that the vaccination programs were not the reason but the good immunological situation of the people was the real reason that infectious diseases disappeared in the post-war periods. Especially in measles, for instance, we just had this measles outbreak here and a big discussion on the TV. You can easily see that the death of measles - we have very good data for this in the Statistisches Bundesamt in Germany that the deaths from measles were completely down before the vaccine programs came on the market.

So it's very easy to see that something else must have been the real reason that infectious diseases disappeared and not the vaccination programs. So I would say you can stop vaccination and the infectious diseases wouldn't come back and the CDC of course claim the opposite. They say "If you stop the vaccination programs then we will have the revival of all infectious diseases." We have a lot of proof already that infectious diseases never come back because we stopped for instance tuberculosis vaccinations because we found out that tuberculosis vaccinations are detrimental for people. It's not just not useful, but it's detrimental.

They have made very good tests in India. They vaccinated one population with PCG and the other with placebo and they found out that the vaccinated population had much more tuberculosis than the unvaccinated. That was 20 years ago. From that moment on it took more than 20 years that the tuberculosis vaccination came off the market here in Germany. My daughter who is 24 now should get the tuberculosis vaccination and I refused at that time because I didn't see the danger of tuberculosis in Germany. We no tuberculosis, only very few cases. And when we stopped this vaccination tuberculosis didn't come back. For diphtheria it's the same. Only one-third of the adult population has vaccinations against diphtheria and nobody gets diphtheria. These are classical diseases of bad times, post-war periods and so on, bad nutritional countries like Africa, India. And that's where you have to work to get these people better nutrition and clean drinking water and that would help, but not the vaccination programs.

Tiffany:: Thank you for that information. It sounds like as long as a person's nutritional status is good, their immune system is good, they have clean drinking water, they have enough to eat, they're not compromising their immune system through multiple vaccines, it sounds like infectious diseases are really not a thing to worry about.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, that's right. That's a very good summary.

Tiffany:. Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about Louis Pasteur and his germ theory and how that kind of goes against the terrain hypothesis from people like Antoine Béchamp or Claude Bernard?

Dr. Köehnlein: Louis Pasteur, yeah. Well he was the one who said at his death that it's not the microbe, it's the terrain. But he said it very, very late and also Petrakova who with this man in Germany, Albert Baker had a fight with Robert Koch. He asked to get from him the kind of vibrio cholera bacterium. He wanted to show Koch it's not the microbe but it's the environment, it's the immune system which makes you sick. And he drank a culture of vibrio cholera, so he drank cholera bacteria and he got a little bit of diarrhoea but nothing serious. And he wrote to Robert Koch "Well I'm still fine. I just drank cholera bacteria but I have a little bit of a stomach ache and a little bit of diarrhoea but that's all." Because Koch was the microbe man. He thinks that the microbe is the centre and we have to move away from the micro-centric area to the immunologic area because the immune system is the point which makes you sick or not. If your immune system is working you have nothing to worry about and if it's not working and there are many drugs to kill your immune system. And the worst, most serious problems are drugs; illicit drugs and also some legal drugs like all these antiviral drugs. They are all immunosuppressive because they are all killing DNA. In treating them you create the problem you want to treat. That's the problem with these antiviral drugs.

Tiffany:: Okay. Are there any other questions, Erica or Gaby, that you wanted to ask Dr. Köehnlein before we wrap up?

Erica: No, I think he covered it great. I did want to mention one fascinating fact in your book was that on the two different instances that the CDC was about to be dismantled, I think the first one you said was in 1949, they were going to dismantle the CDC and then a new epidemic came up. And then again in 1990...

Dr. Köehnlein: This new epidemic was - the CDC they had not much more to do and then came AIDS and they had a new epidemic which they had to fight. And then they made this war against AIDS. Well you know the rest. They created this epidemic by getting more and more diseases on the list of the AIDS-defining diseases which are now 27 diseases, 27 well-known diseases like cancer of the lymph nodes or lymphoma or tuberculosis or some fungal diseases. They are all called AIDS now if you have antibodies against HIV. So it's a new epidemic of old diseases.

Tiffany:: Well it seems like we've come to the end of our time Dr. Köehnlein. You wanted to be on for about an hour.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yes.

Tiffany:: I wanted to thank you again for taking the time to be on the show and sharing all this information with us. Again for our listeners, the book is called Virus Mania-How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics Making Billion Dollar Profits at Our Expense. The book is available on and if you really want a fascinating read, pick it up. It's well worth it. I want to thank you again Dr. Köehnlein for being on the SOTT Talk Radio Health and Wellness Show.

Dr. Köehnlein: Yeah, I thank you. Have a great time.

Tiffany:: Thank you. Alright.

Dr. Köehnlein: Bye-bye.

Tiffany:: Have a good night.

Gaby: Thank you.

Erica: That was great.

Gaby: The last thing I had was not really a question, it was a comment because in the book he has a section on failed infection attempts where he quotes the book Influenza by Gina Kolata who is a journalist. They have very sick people with the flu and they took their secretions and sprayed them on healthy people by the most invasive ways and not a single man got sick which shows how with good terrain - how healthy you could be.

Tiffany:: Yeah, I was reading about that too. I think it was during the Spanish flu of 1918/1919. They took the mucus and they sprayed it in the mouths of healthy people and they didn't get sick. And then they had the healthy men breathe in the sick breath of the sick men and talk with them for five minutes to try to recreate the conditions that people would get sick in and none of them got sick at all.So yeah, this is great information.

Gaby: I must be doing something right because everybody was sick with the flu this winter and I didn't get it, knock on wood.

Tiffany:: No I didn't get it either. So keep your immune systems healthy, stay clean, don't take vaccines, don't do illegal drugs, as the doctor said and there's lots of pharmaceutical drugs that ruin your DNA and lower your immunity too, so avoid pharmaceuticals as much as you can.

Doug: Definitely.

Gaby: Yes.

Erica: There was a really interesting quote in his book that I just wanted to share by Leo Tolstoy. "Man prefers to perish rather than change his habits." I think that definitely applies to what you're talking about with lifestyle and diet change and awareness as well.

Tiffany:: So, does that sound like our show for this week?

Erica: Well maybe we can just talk really briefly, if the other co-hosts have time, about this Virus Mania and how they use fear. He covered it pretty well, but maybe some of the other co-hosts want to address a little bit of that fear-mongering that he went into in the first part of the book.

Doug: I think a lot of it seems to come from these institutions that owe their entire existence to the fact that people believe in what they're saying and they need to keep on promoting this fear. I'm talking specifically about the CDC and things like that. Just because if people actually were aware of what is in this book, the CDC would be completely finished. It wouldn't exist anymore because their entire mandate is to promote things like vaccines and things like that which basically are complete bunk.

So it's really interesting to see all the fear-mongering and this stuff. Every year there's some kind of new major epidemic that everybody has to work about and get vaccinated for and all these kinds of things when it's basically like their PR. It's their way of justifying their own existence.

Tiffany:: And they come up with all these predictions that did not come true and I think the media, and not just the CDC, but the media is very complicit in spreading this fear as well because they're the ones running the news stories, having the evening news and in the newspaper spreading all this stuff. So I think they're just as responsible as the CDC.

Doug: Absolutely.

Erica: Yeah, one of the quotes that he had in his book that I found really fascinating, it says "We are witnessing epidemics of fear. Both media and big pharma industry carry most of the responsibility for amplifying fears and reshaping dogma perpetuated in a quasi manner." And we can really see this now in this whole pro-vaccination movement that's happening. He says "An important point and tool is to keep dissenting voices out of the debate and censorship at various levels ranging from popular media to scientific publications."

Doug: Yeah, absolutely. It's like fear is the actual virus.

Gaby: It highlights how the CDC developed to have such a huge influence in the whole medical field and it basically totally eclipsed what its environmental medicine, and the importance of detoxifying heavy metals and toxicity in general and the importance of having good nutrition.

Doug: It all seems to come back to that, for sure.

Tiffany:: My big question is all this money being spent, all these thousands and thousands of hours spent in the labs studying for what? When they can just clean up nutrition, clean up sanitation and everything would be okay.

Doug: And maybe the science would actually be good if they were...

Tiffany:: The gigantic waste involved.

Doug: Well it might actually be good if they were actually looking in the right direction.

Tiffany:: Right.

Doug: But because the virus thing has caught on so much, there's nobody out there who's looking in the right direction at all. They're all diverted into this completely wrong direction. And one thing that I found really interesting about the interview here is he was just going over what an inexact science this all is too. I had no idea that things were so based on "best guesses". There's no precision to it at all, which is kind of mind-blowing.

Gaby: The Bjoern Sander test never gets used, which is the electron microscope so you can see the virus.

Tiffany:: Yeah, but all the lives wasted, all the AIDS patients that died unnecessarily, all the animals that had to be culled because of this virus mania. It makes me angry.

Erica: Definitely

Doug: Yeah.

Tiffany:: So everybody, get a copy of the book. It's really fantastic. You'll learn a lot. It'll open your eyes to the whole theory of infectious diseases.

Erica: Yes, and also the documentary. Can you give the name againbecause I had an opportunity to watch that last night and it really added some real-life scenarios about how people even view diseases like HIV and AIDS.

Tiffany:: Yeah, the documentary is called House of Numbers-Anatomy of an Epidemic. I do think it's available on YouTube.

Erica: Yes.

Gaby: Just one last thing. The question remains because as he quotes in his book that genetic material in human beings is constantly altered by being hit by shocks, either heavy metals, bad nutrition, environmental stress, psychological stress, information of new genetic sequences which were verifiable before. So the question remains, our junk DNA contains endogenous virus which can be potentially lethal or activated with the right trigger. That's an interesting line of research. We'll follow that.

Doug: Keep your eyes on SOTT.

Tiffany:: Okay. Well it sounds like that's our show for today. You can catch us next week. We're on every Monday at 2:00 p.m. eastern time and you can also check out our other SOTT Talk Radio Network shows, The Truth Perspective on Saturdays at 2:00 p.m. eastern and Behind the Headlines on Sundays at 2:00 p.m. eastern. Jonathan, do you want to take us out? Have a great day everybody.