Political Ponerology
Laura Knight-Jadczyk is interviewed by Lisa Guilliani from Wing TV. The discussion is on Political Ponerology, the nature of evil, and psychopaths.


Lisa: Hello, it's Tuesday August 29th and you're listening to Wing Radio. I'm Lisa Guliani and I've given Victor Thorn the day off. Today I am so thrilled to have a very special person; I had to get a really hard, heavy hitter today for this show. We are going to be talking about evil, the study and science of evil, the book that I want to introduce you to officially is Political Ponerology by Andrew M. Lobaczewski, I hope I didn't slaughter that name, and my special guest is Laura Knight-Jadczyk and she has a website, one website, actually she has 4, but one of them is signs-of-the-times.org and I would like to welcome Laura. And first just let me tell you a little bit about Laura.

Laura has spent 30 years studying psychology, history, culture, religion, myth and the paranormal. She worked for several years in hypnotherapy and she has a deep working knowledge of how the human mind and brain operate. And she's a historian, she's an author of several books, the first, Amazing Grace, which is an autobiography. The second, called 9/11: The Ultimate Truth, which is an unveiling of the real reasons behind 9/11. The third, High Strangeness of Dimensions, Densities and the Process of Alien Abduction, which gets into the differences between alien abduction and mind control and how to distinguish between the two. The fourth is a 4 volume series called The Wave. And then this massive volume, I believe it's 867 pages, right Laura, The Secret History of the World and How to get out Alive, it's a radical reassessment of history, science, religion and myth, it's the result of her search to uncover the underlying principles of reality, and I'll tell you, this book is beautiful, she sent it to me and I haven't even been able to tackle it yet because I've been going through the Ponerology book we're going to talk about today. She's also a co-founder, along with her husband Arkadius Jadczyk, who I believe is a quantum physicist, correct?

Laura: Yes, he's a mathematical theoretical physicist.

Lisa: And, normal people or everyday people call him a genius. Anyway, they have 4 websites, cassiopaea.org, quantumfuture.net, signs-of-the-times.org and qfgpublishing.com and you can, I guess, find links to those on the signs-of-the-times website which we have linked to on Wing TV. Laura and Ark have also founded Quantum Future Group Inc., which is a non-profit in California, which supports alternative and scientific research, they sit on the boards of several successful companies around the world, which are based on the principles of networking, which they espouse in their work.

And I'll tell you, I'm so glad I met this woman because, we all think that we are aware, and awake, and enlightened in these conspiracy, political conspiracy circles, and in the 9/11 truth movement and in the patriot community, and, until you read this book, Political Ponerology and talk to the people who have studied this, you realize that you don't know anything. So I'd like to welcome Laura Knight-Jadczyk to Wing TV. Hi Laura.

Laura: Thanks Lisa, gee, that's a hard act to follow, I don't know what to say.

Lisa: I have never seen an instance where you don't know what to say, I fall into that trap much more. Now, Laura we talk a lot about, people are always asking, what can we do and saying that we need to strike the root of what's going on in the world politically and within, you know, the whole 9/11 truth effort and in the patriot community and what's going on in America. Are we striking the root or are we more or less hacking at the leaves, because your husband Ark, came up with a really good thing, or way to describe this, that we need to go after the element that birthed the problem. And the element the birthed the problem is, the problem is evil, and we don't really hear anybody talking about evil or studying it, or addressing it on any way, and also, psychopaths, right?

Laura: That's by design of course, because at the root of evil, and evil is something that I have studied for probably the last 30 years, because my initial question was, why do bad things happen to good people, if God is good God, why is the world the way it is, you know, the usual existential questions that any seekers of answers ask. Most of us get diverted right away by the system itself, which posits at the earliest layers of enquiry, that if you ask questions about these things, that you will become part of it. That if you look at it too long, it will look back at you and take over you. But if you just think in more mundane terms, one of the first rules of warfare, and it is a war, is know your enemy. How can you know what you're fighting against if you don't know every detail about it and how to combat it?

So, right away they have put a fence around the study of this by saying, if you think about it, if you ask about it, if you concentrate on it even, then it will become real and that is absolutely not the case because for all the years that those ideas have been promoted, not to think or talk or enquire about evil, it has done nothing but grow and grow and grow, and there is of course the old saying that the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing, which was attributed to Edmund Burke, an Irishmen who was a member of the British parliament, but, the point is, is that what he was saying was absolutely true and you can do nothing about it if you don't understand it, if you don't know what it is, and, most people ascribe it to some esoteric thing that you can think away and Andrew Lobaczewski has made it quite clear that evil, as we experience it and understand it in our world, is not necessarily some esoteric or ephemeral force, something like demons or wizards etc, that it actually erupts into our reality from very prosaic causes that can be understood if it is approached in the proper way, the way of a naturalist, who is seeking to study something that is a natural part of our reality, that evil erupts into our world from psychological deviants. Psychological deviants can be both acquired and it can also be inherited, it can be genetic psychological deviants and there are and they're called psychopaths in our society.

Lisa: Right, now, mostly we see pictured on TV and in film and what not, the violent psychopaths, people as used in example, Hannibal Lector from Silence of the Lambs, those are the ones portrayed in film that the public gets to see, but there is a larger group of psychopaths, the non-violent psychopaths, that's my understanding, am I right?

Laura: That's correct and that's another one of the fences that's been put around the study, the confusion of the issue, and it's been done deliberately. The idea of psychopathy is being the barely restrained maniac, whose not really very restrained because he becomes unleashed every once in a while, you know, Hannibal Lector, and then there are things like Psycho, the guy with the shower scene and various other things. But these types, what are called the criminal types, are really failures, they are psychopathic failures, they fail because they have broken their cover.

Lisa: They've been busted right.

Laura: They have been captured, they have been submitted to study. And this is another problem because most of the earlier studies of psychopathy were, in fact, those who had been failures, they were captured, they broke the law, they did something so violent, so reprehensible that they were apprehended.

Lisa: The non-violent psychopaths.

Laura: Then Hervey Cleckley came along and wrote his seminal work The Mask of Sanity, which is out of print by the way and we contacted the company, about getting a new publication, a new edition, and it is pretty well established there is no intention ever to republish his work, so what copies are available, are pretty much all there is. But anyhow, his study dealt with another layer of psychopaths which was mostly sub-criminal, they just committed petty crimes or whatever, but for the most part they were just put in hospitals by their families or their friends or under circumstances that were quite different from someone who had committed a violent crime. So he had a whole other level of psychopaths to examine, study and work with. So he wrote his book with extremely detailed case histories that were taken not just from the psychopaths, because of course you can't take a case history from a psychopath, because one of the chief characteristics of a psychopath is the fact that they lie. So he took these case histories, he would get their version of everything, then he would interview all their family members, everyone who had ever known them, their victims etc. and come up with a more complete picture of who and what this type of individual was.

In more recent times there have been other books, for example Martha Stout, who wrote The Sociopath Next Door, and I'm going to try to avoid the controversy over whether the words sociopath and psychopath are equivalent. I would say psychopath is the appropriate word, and sociopath is just part of the confusion process, but, Martha Stout worked with the victims of psychopaths and these were the people who had been in relationships with them and who had been impacted in their lives by the sub-criminal psychopaths, that is, psychopaths who never did anything illegal, for which they were caught. Now you can't say that they never did anything illegal because they constantly do things and they do things that are terribly immoral, by any standards. So she was able to put together another picture of another level of psychopathy, based on the case histories that she took about them through their victims. And it wasn't just one person saying, "well, he did this, he did that", it was a more comprehensive process than that, because she did follow up on these things and collect actual information.

Then there was another more recent study done at a university by a group of researchers, who had devised a questionnaire, that was able to extract certain information about a broad population of university students and they came up with the startling result that about 25% of students in the university exhibited a certain profile of psychopathic personality, and yet they were, what you would consider to be law abiding, going to university, getting a degree, planning a career. And then of course that matched with what Cleckley pointed out, that there were psychopaths doctors, judges, lawyers, politicians, because he was able to extrapolate what he observed about these people, that were his patients, to a wider population of human beings and to notice that their behaviours matched.

Lisa: So there's actually more of them among us than we might even realize. Let me ask you this, what is the difference between a psychopath and a non-psychopath, what is the one thing, well there's probably a lot of things, but, the major thing that differentiates a psychopath from a non-psychopath?

Laura: That's pretty easy, it's conscience.

Lisa: They don't have one, right?

Laura: A psychopath simply doesn't have one and this is one of the most difficult things for a normal human being that has a conscience to comprehend, a psychopath doesn't have one. Now whether this lack of conscience is an esoteric thing or whether it is a brain dysfunction, is still up in the air, but the fact is that brain scans have been done of people who have been diagnosed with psychopathy and their brain scans do not even look like normal human brain scans, so obviously their brains function quite differently.

Łobaczewski of course has a theory for it. He talks at some length about the substratum of the human being, the human psychology and that there is an instinctive substratum, which, in normal human beings, connects us with other people, through long evolution or whatever cause you might want to ascribe to it. Normal human beings, and here I use the word normal in a very specific context, meaning somebody who has a conscience, as opposed to somebody who doesn't. I mean, there are a lot of people who have consciences, who, we would clearly say, "well they're clearly not normal", that's generally due to some acquired deficiencies or they've been psychologically abused or whatever, so, let's be specific about this term normal, it means somebody who has the ability to empathize with another human being, as opposed to someone who does not.

Lisa: I noticed in my reading that, the psychopathic person, they don't feel the emotions the way we do, they can simulate the language of emotion, so that they can connect with other people, it's like, who was it, I don't know who said it, maybe Ark said it, your husband or maybe it was Łobaczewski, they anchor into a person's head, into their mind, into their brain.

Laura: Yes, the problem with conscience comes back because, the ability to empathize seems to be based on spatio temporal perception, that is, that you can imagine something in space and time, you can imagine a future consequence or you can remember a past hurt that you experienced, and then if you see someone experiencing something similar to what you experienced before, you can imagine how they feel, and if you do something that brought a result into your life that was not happy in the past, you can imagine in the future that if you do it again that a similar thing will happen.

A psychopath doesn't seem to be able to do this. For one thing, things do not hurt them, the way they hurt us. For them, losing a friend or losing a mate or losing a partner or losing a job is a minor inconvenience, and it only inconveniences them insofar as, "now I've got to go and find some other source of, sex, money, food, whatever". So for them, the idea of losing a beloved wife because she divorces him because he is such a jerk, he may become enraged and stalk her and carry on because he wants to reassert his power. But if she does actually remove herself completely from his reach, he'll stop, and he'll just be enraged simply because he has lost his source and then he will just simply look for another. He will never hurt because he has lost love, for him love is supplying his needs. So that's the problem, they don't seem to have the ability to abstractly understand pain and suffering and hurt, either their own or anyone else's, because they don't experience it to begin with. And they can't imagine it in the past or present or future, there's no ability to connect whatsoever.

Lisa: This Political Ponerology book had a very difficult path to emergence into the public arena and it hasn't even really been brought out into the wider public arena yet, but, there were 3 versions of this manuscript, the author describes. The first one went into the furnace, just minutes prior to a search or raid, I guess, of his home. The second draft was sent via an American tourist to the Vatican and nothing ever came of it, they don't know what happened to that manuscript, they never heard anything back. The third version, I guess, made it to America and was supressed by Zbigniew Brzezinski. Very interesting, why would Brzezinski supress this book?

Laura: Well, that probably is somewhat self-evident because Brzezinski is clearly part of this controlling elite.

Lisa: It exposes them doesn't it? The neocons.

Laura: It exposes them and the book itself would be a handbook, a guide, a manual for other people, particularly even, psychologists, to begin to get a inkling of exactly what they're up against in terms of dealing with the power elite. You got to understand that the psychopath is a very efficient machine, just imagine not having a conscience.

Lisa: So, what you're saying is that they are a different type of human being?

Laura: Yeah, exactly. And Łobaczewski and even Malloy who was another clinical psychologist who has written extensively on psychopathy, discusses the fact that there is something even what he actually refers to as a reptilian nature that, and the effect of the psychopath on normal human beings is similar to the effect of a snake on say a mouse or a bird, they become frozen, there is something, maybe it has something to do with the scent, maybe they give off an odour, which reaches inside the normal human being that paralyses their thinking processes, because there's very little that can explain how a psychopath can effect a normal human being the way they do. The most typical example I can think of when I think of those powers that the psychopath has over human beings is seen in Silence of the Lambs, where they talk about how Hannibal Lector convinced his cellmate to swallow his own tongue and thereby commit suicide. Through their words they can convince people to do just about anything. And it's not just the words, there is something else, something that is hard to reach, hard to get to, and Malloy refers to it specifically as an almost reptilian quality, that is quite frightening.

Lisa: I got a lot out of this book, this is a book that you have to read in total quiet and really concentrate and you have to read it more than once, to really internalise, and I'm still internalising what's going on in this book. But, he says in this book, this is my understanding, evil is contagious, that it infects like an epidemic, it spreads like an epidemic to the people around it, so it can effect one other person or a small group or an entire population. And, I was reading something else, by this Francois de Bernard in The New Nero, I guess it was published in Haaretz, March of 2003, and he said this, "the US has become a pathocracy, a regime neurotic in essence, the leaders of which are quite simply psychopaths", and I was thinking about all of this, how we're trying to expose 911 truth, and we wonder with all of this information that's been coming out in the mainstream at the lack of outrage among the population that watches this, the mainstream, every day, Joe Q, citizen. And I was thinking, if we are raised in a culture in a society that's been designed by psychopaths, we're more desensitized to evil and we're actually being conditioned to embrace it, aren't we?

Laura: Well sure, and look at the source of that...

Lisa: And do we recognise it then?

Laura: A subject I don't want to go into too deeply here, but the source of that is the so-called Judeo-Christian ethic, where you have a God of the Old Testament who on the one hand says, "love all your neighbours", and then turns right around and reverses that decree and says, "destroy everybody and leave nothing breathing". So, how can you have a normal human culture where people care for each other and connect with each other when you have such a schizophrenic view of the world, it's impossible.

Lisa: Well let me ask you this Laura, if we are raised in this conditioned culture that's been designed by psychopaths, then how far away from having a conscience is the population at large?

Laura: Well, I would say that the conscience has been perverted, there are things called conversive thinking, paramoralisms and so on. There's some extreme examples of what is paramoralistic behaviour. Everybody knows that some things are moral and immoral, ok let's take that as a given. And, for example, the abuse of children is considered by nearly all cultures to be immoral. And from time immemorial, sex with children, very small children, has been considered to be immoral, and yet there are groups of people who can paramoralistically convince other groups of people that abusing a child is a good thing. For example, some cults that may talk about demon possession, ok, so the child is behaving a certain way, maybe the child has a psychological disorder, maybe the child has a physical disorder, but the child acts in a certain way and maybe is even just disobedient. And so the child is demon possessed and they beat the child to death and they justify this as being a moral action and that is basically a paramoralism. Where you justify any adhoc thing you want to do, by giving it a moralistic explanation, and this is so typical of our society, "either you're with us or against us", it's a paramoralism. "If you are against us then you are with the terrorists", and that is so absurd a paramoralism that it hardly needs to be described, but there it is and people believe in it because they understand that things are moral or they're immoral, and a good psychopath can convince them that anything is moral. There's an even more recent example, there was an article in the paper the other day, that there are these groups that are now trying to convince society that sex with children is ok, that it's good for them, that they like it.

Lisa: The mainstream media conditions people to, sort of, accept evil as a regular every day thing, that it's normal. And we see examples of this too in the alternative media where people have actually told me, "we should embrace the bad guys along with the good guys, because all that really matters is that we unite to fight the new world order", and my argument was, "how can we fight the evil if we embrace the evil, don't we become the evil if we embrace the evil?"

Laura: Well there's a problem there too and the problem is that if any group tries to go against a psychopathic, shall we say organisation, and they have within their own membership individuals who are subject to psychopathic manipulation, they will immediately fall into trouble because those individuals who are subject to being paralysed by the stare of the psychopath, or by the scent of the psychopath, and who is subject to being converted by their paramoralisms or their conversive thinking, they will then begin to do what Lobaczewski calls "ponerize", the movement itself, and begin to shift it this way and that. And it's like a ship, you know, you set sail from say England and you want to sail to Miami, and, you're off course just a little bit, just like, 1 or 2 degrees at the point of beginning, you may end up in New York, which is very far from your destination. And the same thing happens with any kind of group, that there are people inside who are subject to these paramoralistic insinuations and conversive thinking, they can take that group and they can take it completely off course and almost unnoticeably.

Lisa: Let's get into that conversive thinking. Now, we talked a lot on our show about hypocrisy and the hypocrites in the 911 truth movement and we've written a lot of exposes that point out people's hypocrisy, the so-called leaders of this truth movement. And it's interesting to also add to this that psychopaths tend to gravitate towards positions of power, they like to be the leaders and spokesman and the people who shape public perception and opinion, but, this conversive thinking, we see evidence of this in certain people in the 911 movement too, don't we?

Laura: Oh, absolutely, and just for those who don't really know what conversive thinking is, conversive thinking is something that was highlighted during the so-called Cold War, the communist era. Conversive thinking is a form of double talk, where words are used in a certain way, using terms and giving them opposing or twisted meanings. For example, you use the term peacefulness, but you really mean appeasement, or vice versa, you can say appeasement and you really mean peace.

Lisa: This is what I wrote in my notes...

Laura: Freedom for example means licence. We hear a lot of people who come on our forum and when we do not permit certain behaviours, certain kinds of attacks and twisting and manipulation, they say that we are totalitarian, we do not respect freedom of speech. Well, they don't really want freedom of speech, they want licence to manipulate and twist and distort. So there's another one, 'traditional'. Think of how the Bush administration referred to Europe, 'old Europe', you know, backward. 'Traditional' has come to mean backward. Such things as 'being efficient' is being referred to as being 'micro managing small mindedness'.

Lisa: Psychopaths use conversive thinking to generate fear and terror, so we can see that being used with the Bush regime, the media does it, we also see it in the 911 truth circles, where they block out uncomfortable conclusions and they substitute them for more convenient conclusions, but it's not truth, is it?

Laura: Yup. Another one is something like, 'extraordinary rendition', do you love that one?

Lisa: Yeah.

Laura: What it really means is to kidnap someone illegally and take them somewhere and torture them. When I was a kid, my grandmother would take pig fat and she would render it, this is where you cook it very slowly until all of the fat comes out of the tissue and then you have a liquid. So you think of rendition, their using the word rendition and their taking something and their squeezing it until there's no juice left in it and in this case it's a human being. So, this kind of use of words is very sick, very sick, and it is very compelling because the ordinary person who has not been well educated, and let's face it, in the United States most people have not been well educated, the majority of people who graduate from high school in the US are not even literate. So if you take somebody who has been deliberately dumbed down and then you start playing with words in this way, and saying, "Oh it doesn't mean that it means this." They're easy prey for that kind of manipulation. So an uneducated society, which is been deliberately made so, is ripe for the plucking by a gang of psychopaths.

Lisa: It should be noted too, that psychopaths can be very charming, they can be the guy next door, they don't necessarily look evil, they don't necessarily act evil, overtly. They can be your neighbour, they can be a doctor, they can be a teacher, they can be a member of the clergy, they can be your friend around the corner. It's really hard to detect them unless you start informing yourself, of the study of evil and this all ties into the whole 911 truth and patriot community and the alternative media. An example of a person in our 911 truth movement, the so-called movement, who uses paramoralisms and conversive thinking is Eric Hushman.

Laura: Oh yeah, Hushman is a real piece of work, yes indeed. Just one thing to keep in mind always is that, psychopaths and schizoidal psychopaths, there's several types in fact, and you would learn all about this if you read Łobaczewski's book. They tend to accuse other people, continuously, loudly and rancorously of the very things they do themselves. It's almost a 100% rule, you can guarantee it every time.

Lisa: Right, well, and you pointed out that the cyber stalkers that have been harassing me did that also, the very things that they accused me of, are the very things they do, they accused me of being filthy and disgusting but that's exactly what they are, what they do.

Laura: Yeah, they always accuse their victims of being exactly what they are and what they do themselves.

Lisa: People seem to, they have to be very clear about one thing, and I'm glad that this was pointed out in my reading. The link between conceiving ethnic genocide, which is a major, major crime, ok, and lying to ones boss about a co-worker, there's a common link there and the common link is a lack of conscience. So, a lack of conscience can cause a person to do something that maybe most, a lot of people, would think of as a small minor thing, but also can create this bigger, wider, darker, evil.

Laura: Yeah, and I think the American people, it's not that individually they have no conscience, it's that their conscience has been so twisted and distorted by conversive thinking, by paramoralisms. People who beat a child to death because they believe it's demon possessed, they're acting based on their conscience but their conscience has been completely twisted and distorted. So, most people when they belong to any group or even a larger group such as a society, they tend to look around. The Kitty Genovese case is a good example, 30 something people stood and watched this woman be murdered and nobody did a thing, they kept looking at each other to see what the other was going to do, was somebody else going to do something, before any of them would take action, and they evaluated their own behaviour based on what they saw these other people doing, or not doing.

Lisa: And it's good that this is pointed out too in this book, that conscience sometimes is a handicap because, the psychos get away with a lot of the things they do because people with conscience don't want to confront them.

Laura: Yeah, because they're afraid that they're going to hurt them or they're going to hurt their feelings, and this is based on the fact that we've all been programmed to believe that people only exhibit problem behaviour when they're troubled, when they're anxious or they have some problem. We've been taught that people are only aggressive when they're attacked in some way, this is part of psychopathic reality that has been imposed on us. So even when our instincts tell us that somebody is attacking us, because they are evil, for no good reason, we don't readily accept that notion, we start to wonder what's bothering them, what made them feel bad.

Lisa: They didn't mean it, right.

Laura: Was their toast burned or something. And then people of conscience also turn that on themselves, "what did I say, what did I do to hurt them", and they never think that they are being aggressive, they're being manipulative, whatever, simply because they want to get their way to gain control over us or in some way manipulate us. We are programmed to not think that.

Lisa: Well of course, I was raised to think that all people are inherently good and that everybody has a conscience, but it turns out it's the exact opposite, these people are a different type of human being, they have no guilt, they feel no remorse, no sense of concern for others, no struggles with shame, no sense of responsibility, no empathy and love. They're not able to love, love comes bundled in conscience, right?

Laura: To them love is hunger for something, money, sex, power. And that's the thing that drives them. And the big problem of course is the legacy of Sigmund Freud, his theories and the theories of others who built on his work, have influenced current day psychology to the point where it's been completely twisted and distorted. And the Freudian psychology underpins, it's the foundation of many of our other scientific disciplines, as well as our social institutions and enterprises. It's all based on understanding, on imagining that everyone has a conscience and a social responsibility, just completely lays down and tries to understand and cope with people who have problems, that they will stop having problems. And if you think about it, this is the perfect cover for psychopaths, because then no matter what they do, they get excused, they're just neurotic.

Lisa: And if we embrace the evil, at what price do we embrace it, was does it do to us?

Laura: Yeah.

Lisa: I started thinking about a lot of these people on TV who get arrested for say, a mother killing all her children, and how they go back and forth and they're trying to find some kind of insanity defence, it's just she's sick, she's just a sick person. Could a lot of these people just be inherently evil people?

Laura: Well, once again, it's a little bit difficult to generalize because in some cases it's true and in some cases it isn't. In some cases people have been driven crazy under stress by the psychopathic reality in which they live and this tips them over the edge. And this is how psychology, it's the abuse of psychology by the psychopathic regime. And, in another case, for example there was a movie Small Sacrifices about the woman who killed her children just to get a boyfriend. So this woman is a psychopath, but on the other hand a woman who suffers from post-partum depression and has a really horrible situation... There are cases, you have to examine each case individually, because a woman can be driven over the edge, just as a person can be engulfed in a cult and think that beating their children to death to get rid of the demon is saving the child's soul. And they may have a conscience, and it may be being done because of paramoralistic insinuation into their psychology. So, you can't make in any case a broad general rule and that's another evidence, believe it or not of psychopathy, the black and white view of the world. You make rules and it's this way and it's black, you know, the simplistic explanations for everything without understanding the broad range of human psychology and individual cases.

Lisa: Context.

Laura: Yeah, because this is something that has emerged from the Judeo-Christian ethic also, it's either black or white, and there's no individual understanding. But, because of the fact the human being, normal human beings, and here again, I mean human beings who have a potential conscience as opposed to those who do not...

Lisa: I'm going to repeat what Ark said because I think it's really important that we repeat it. A lot of people, or there's some people in the 911 truth movement, let's call it an effort, I hate that word, movement, because there's no movement. There are some people that are saying that if we just get rid of this one group of people who appear to be psychopaths, that we're going to solve the problems that are currently going on in Israel, Lebanon and America and throughout the world and there we have it, that's the solution. But, your husband, Ark, made a really good point, that if we just get rid of that group, the psychopaths will just reform and re-create into another group, because psychopaths gravitate towards one another and they also do this in the 911 truth effort too, don't they?

Laura: Well sure, and the 911 so-called truth effort movement, whatever it is, is a typical example of a venue in which psychopaths thrive. Because whenever there is a void of official explanation of authority, whatever, when there are big questions to be asked and answered and the official culture does not deal with this appropriately, there are self-made experts that move into that void and become the experts.

For example, some years back there was the whole UFO thing. Well, the official culture just ridiculed it and said no there's no such thing as UFO's, aliens, blah blah blah. So this gave an opportunity for hundreds if not thousands of people to move into position and become so-called UFO experts, and authorities in that field. The same exact situation. And that's a really good study in order to understand the 911 truth movement, if you really understand what happened to so-called UFO investigation, you can see the exact same thing with 911.

And also, it's the same thing with the JFK assassination. Whenever there is an obvious lie being told by the official culture, the powers that be, or whatever, and they do not deal with the real pressing questions, they do not deal with the obvious discrepancies, then they ridicule anybody who tries to do it. You have this huge gap where psychopaths can move in and become the so-called experts, because the primary driving thing about a psychopath is gaining power over others. And all kinds of people who are born with the psychopathic genes, and do not think for a moment that it's not genetic, it is a genetic condition, they see, "here's an opportunity for me to climb up on top, I can become an expert in this."

Psychology is also a field where psychopaths are attracted, because it's fairly easy to get a degree in psychology and become a psychologist, and you're an expert. So any venue where they can move in and gain power over others, become an authority, is very attractive to psychopaths, especially if it can be done with the least amount of effort, and that basically, describes the 911 truth movement. Then there's another problem, because of course, if you have such an issue as 911, which is probably the greatest crime of this century, well at least at this point, I think there's some other big ones coming up.

Lisa: Yeah, I agree.

Laura: You have a crime and it has been committed by psychopaths, ok, so that's your first thing. And you have to understand that if they ever, for a moment, think, that anybody is going to uncover it and make any efforts that are legitimate to remove them from power, they will do all kinds of things to prevent that from ever happening. And if people do not believe that they predicted, because they have all the money and power to buy all kinds of psychologists who will predict the public's behaviour. So if people think that they did not predict that there would be a so-called 911 truth movement in reaction to this lack of official explanation that was sufficient and adequate for this crime, think again. I mean, you are dealing with real criminals, they are going to create a so-called 911 truth movement, and they're going to create it from the very beginning, and they're going to create it so it follows the lines that they want it to follow, and they're going to put people in place who are going to be very attractive, very convincing, very compelling in their explanations, and 99% of everything they are going say is right, but then it's going to be like that ship going from England to Miami, you know, just one degree off course and you're going to end up in New York.

Lisa: We're also told by some of the big wigs in this 911 truth movement that we've got them on the run, we've got the bad guys on the run, and I absolutely refute that.

Laura: Oh God, think again.

Lisa: We don't have anybody on the run because we're not really attacking the real problem. There's a lot of finger pointing, everybody thinks everybody else is COINTELPRO. Talk about COINTELPRO and what's going on in this 911 truth effort, if you can.

Laura: Well this is something that I became aware of very early and it actually started before 911, it was because I was writing about some of these genetic issues and was looking already into the problems between normal human beings and aberrant human beings, and I came immediately under attack and was accused of being an incipient cult leader, that I was trying to start a cult. Now come on, we're talking about a housewife from Florida, with 5 kids, who has a discussion group that consists of maybe 100 members, who all talk about anything under the sun, and I've got this metaphysical experiment going on, that was just an experiment and it was something I was sharing and saying, "Hey let's look at this, this is an experiment, let's play with this sort of thing, just because we might get some kind of inspiration out of it," and boy, wham, bam, they came down on me like gang busters, you would not believe the crap. There are websites, and it has grown even, because the more I write about psychopathy, the more I expose the true nature of this genetic problem that we're facing in our world... There are entire websites devoted to defaming me. And once again, they accuse you of the very things they do themselves. I was accused of being psychologically deficient, I was accused of fraud, of theft, of starting a cult etc. All of the things that the people who were accusing me of these things wanted to do themselves and were themselves.

Lisa: Who were you a threat to, who are these people, because I really want people to understand that this is related to well known people in the alternative media, like Jeff Rense, right?

Laura: Yeah, he is associated with the same group of people who went after me and he himself actually published defamatory material about me.

Lisa: Join the club.

Laura: I think that the big threat and it's always been the big threat, is the direction I'm taking, which is to understand the nature of evil. They do not, absolutely do not want anybody to study and understand the nature of evil, this is actually forbidden because if you come up with any real answers, such as we have, you must be destroyed, you must be defamed. Defamation of course is the main way of destroying someone, they don't want to make a martyr out of me, they're not going to come and arrest me and tazer me, because if they arrested and tazered me, that would give validity to what I write. Instead they want to defame me, they want to ridicule me, they want to marginalise me in all the ways that are culturally accepted, paramoralisms and conversive thinking and so on and so forth.

Lisa: You and I are like lightning rods, aren't we?

Laura: Oh yeah.

Lisa: Why?

Laura: It's quite amazing to see how it works, but I can guarantee you that anybody who gets martyred, aint got a clue.

Lisa: So, like Alex Jones, having his little incident at the Canadian border, on behalf of a, well what was it, orchestrated by the Bilderberg group?

Laura: All that does is attract attention to the wrong issue. The real issue is genetic psychopathy, this is what they do not want people to know and understand.

Lisa: And we don't see anybody talking about it and it's the crux issue. If we just get rid of one group of people, for instance a lot of people in the 911 truth movement think, "If we just get Bush and Cheney out of office and put in the Democrats..."

Laura: Oh yeah, well then we'll just get another psychopath in.

Lisa: "We're going to have a whole different country here," but that's not true.

Laura: That is their typical strategy. If they figure out that people are finally getting a clue about something, they will sacrifice some of their own and then they will present themselves as saviours, the new strong man who's going to step in a clean everything up, and he will be just as psychopathic as the others, because unless and until you understand it has nothing to do with groups it has nothing to do with nationalities, it has nothing to do with specifically religions, or with politics, or any of those kinds of divisions, that it has to do with a genetic malformation, a genetic substratum of reality that is completely deviant, completely different. And it occurs in any and all, some groups of course, do have a greater percentage, for a number of reasons. Like for example, if they've been isolated in ghettos, for hundreds of years and intermarried and so forth, they're going to produce more psychopaths.

Lisa: Yeah, well if they've been exposed to more evil, then they would be worse. Let's get back for a second though to the COINTELPRO, because we've been talking about this for a long time how certain groups that promote themselves at the forefront of 911 truth, they deliberately steer people away from truth, they get them to engage in meaningless activities, like this UN prance they had last September 11th, in New York city, where nobody really cared that they were even there, it was a Sunday, everything was closed and they accomplished nothing. Rather than being at the emotional epicentre which was ground zero, they were all like walking around in circles at the UN doing nothing. They get activists to waste their time essentially and we tried to point this out to people, these are like COINTELPRO tactics, right?

Laura: Absolutely, and if somebody really wants to know how to survive these things, the first thing they need to do is, they need to read Ponerology and they need to really get a good grip on the types of individuals, how conversive thinking is used, how paramoralisms are used to divert and deviate people. I've written numerous, numerous articles on it, and they need to understand the exact parameters of it and they need to become very shrewd and very psychologically educated.

Lisa: Well, we need to inform our consciences in order to inoculate ourselves against these types of people, right?

Laura: Yeah. Let me give you an example. COINTELPRO, the counter intelligence program supposedly was created to vector social ideology. Any group back in the 70's that was promoting, ideas of peace and brotherhood and 'no wars' and 'let's all get together and understand', ecology, 'let's be kind to the planet', anything that was positive and good had to be vectored. And what they did was, they would put their agents, and believe me these agents are really well trained and they're generally taken from universities and gotten at a very young age when they're impressionable and they can work on them. And then they become totally covert Manchurian type agents and they go into a group and they can become leaders, movers and shakers and I would really be suspicious of extremely young people who have gotten into this movement at a very young age.

Lisa: There seems to be a lot of those.

Laura: Yeah, people like Alex Jones and Christopher Bollyn, they both came into it at very young ages, so that right there is suspicious. But they get them and they put them in the groups and they begin to use paramoralistic and conversive thinking and they infect the group from the inside. And at the same time they may find somebody in the group who is already psychologically deviant, who leaves the group because they can't be in charge or they aren't getting full credit for this or that, so they have some kind of deviation already, some kind of personality problems because of the way they were brought up. And they can use them to tell lies about the group or they can create entire disruptions in any kind of group by simply their knowledge of psychology.

And this is something that people really need to understand, the other side has unlimited resources, they have the best psychologists and psychiatrists and motivation masters that money can buy to study how to do this. And if we do not undertake to study the matter ourselves, we are helpless against them, completely helpless.

Lisa: Right, and we'll never have them on the run if we don't arm ourselves with the best tool there is. And feeding them emotional responses is giving them what they want, the want to illicit an emotional response, so it's best to try to not react emotionally to their tactics and the only way you can learn how to do that is to really study up on this very dangerous science, right?

Laura: Yeah, and the only remedy is knowledge and awareness and also working on yourself to make yourself immune to what they can do to you. For example, Lobaczewski tells the story of the first time he was arrested by the secret police. Well, he was young and they were just starting their researches and so forth in this subject and because he had never been exposed directly to such violent and aggressive behaviour, they were easily able to reduce him to a blithering puddle of jello. Well, after many, many more experiences exposing himself to the shocking behaviour, to the shocking realisations of what kind of human beings he was actually dealing with, 15 years or more later, he was arrested again and he was able to stand there and look them coolly in the eye and say, basically, "Hey, you got a serious problem," and they were so taken aback by his, by their inability to frighten him, they actually let him go.

So, people think that looking at this sort of thing, dealing with this thing, studying this thing, knowing about this thing, can make you evil. No, no, no, no! It does the exact opposite, it inoculates you against it! Studying psychopathy is the same thing as studying something out of nature and you can learn a lot about crocodiles by studying them. You don't want to live with them, you don't want to sleep with them, you don't want to be with them, but you need to learn about them in order to know what kind of habitat they prefer, what their habits are, what their behaviours are, so that you can avoid being eaten by a crocodile.

Lisa: Yeah, I like how you guys pointed out too that in the 50 years prior to 911, America experienced good times and there were several generations of children born during that time and the ones that were born at the beginning of that time, now want to reap the benefits of all they've accumulated. There's been so much focus on enjoying the good times that it's affected people's abilities to process things critically and think objectively, and that's sort of compromised in good times as opposed to bad times. And then when bad times hit they're overwhelmed with evil and they have to exert more mental effort to get themselves out of these various situations and to get away from the evil, right?

Laura: Well this is true, because when anybody is living in a society that's at peace and there's plenty and there are jobs and you can make money and you can have the proverbial house with 3 bedrooms, 2.5 children, 2 cars, annual vacations, swimming pool etc. Your life is so enjoyable and you go to movies and you go out to dinner and you go dancing and you watch entertaining plays and you go to the ballet etc. etc. You don't spend a whole lot of time being concerned with psychological abnormality and you spend an awful lot of time entertaining yourself, getting things, more and better. You want the best vacuum cleaner, you want the top end washing machine, you want the bread machine, the microwave, the full wall television etc. etc. So you are pretty well occupied with getting all these toys to entertain yourself and if your family is relatively stable you're not going to be concerned with psychological deviants and learning about people who lie.

Once in a while those things impinge on your life, you may have a boss who treats you badly, but you find another job, it's ok. You may have a relative who acts whacked out and there may be a family uproar over that, but by and large, you go through your entire life and your children grow up and their entire lives, in a society based on everything being more or less ok. And you never stop to think that your society, which is based on this consumer modality, is existing that way because behind the scenes, your country, your government, is exploiting other nations, taking their resources for penny's on the dollar, using small children to make your tennis shoes and your sundresses and your bathing suits, for barely enough to live on. And that you have all these consumer goods because your government is taking advantage of other people. You don't know that.

Lisa: Right. Well, we become so preoccupied with the self and accumulating for the self that we're not able to read the environment and other people around us, during good times.

Laura: Yes. So you grow up in a total void of any kind of understanding of evil, of the nature of evil. Meanwhile your own government has been and probably always has been taken over by such individuals and they rob Peter to pay Paul, they do so many evil things in different places, but eventually all that comes home to roost on top of you.

Lisa: Right. But meanwhile you can't recognise the evil, you can't recognise it.

Laura: Yeah, you're plunged into a situation where it becomes overt because when it starts coming home to roost for them, then they start putting pressure on the layers below which is the average person, "you're either with us or against us". And then you're in a situation where you are completely unable to comprehend what happened, how it came about, and you're challenged with facing the evil that always was there under the surface.

Lisa: Right, and so, this is what I would say to the people out there listening to this. Many of you like to go around saying your eyes have been opened, you're enlightened and you're aware, and I say to you, it's time for you to really open your eyes and stop keeping reality at a distance, you have to start learning about this study of evil, you have to start arming yourself with the one tool that's going to help you create the change that you constantly talk about wanting, to make in the world and in our country and to be able to expose the truth. You have to embrace knowledge and start exerting some more mental effort of your own instead of parroting back what is being told to you by people in the alternative media and the 911 truth community and the patriot community, you have to start doing your own thinking instead of just being repetitive. Do you agree with that Laura?

Laura: I absolutely agree and then there's another really important thing. Do not think that you're going to be able to discern a genetically deviant individual from anybody else. They have grown up knowing that they were different and they have devised the most extraordinary strategies for concealing their difference, and using their difference to become masters of other people.

Lisa: Right, the ones that have been exposed are the failed psychopaths. The ones that are really good at it don't get caught so easily, right?

Laura: Not only do they not get caught so easily, many of them never get caught, never ever.

Lisa: Well, this has been one of the most fascinating discussions and we could talk about this stuff for hours and hours, but I'm sure Laura has other work to do today. But I do want to thank you Laura very much and I want to have you back on again so we can talk some more.

Everybody, the book is Political Ponerology, it's by Andrew Lobaczewski. We have this book on our website now, available, I think it is the most important new world order book every written probably, because it gets to the root of the problem, it doesn't hack at the leaves. And Laura I just want to thank you, I believe you and Henry C. edited this book, correct?

Laura: Yes.

Lisa: Well I just want to thank you and the rest of the SOTT group, you're doing extraordinary work, you're doing dangerous work. And there's really very few people in this circle that are truth tellers and you guys are part of the circle and I just can't thank you enough.

Laura: Thank you for having me Lisa.

Lisa: All right, I'll talk to you later, have a good one.