Author and historian Laura Knight-Jadczyk discusses her book High Strangeness: Hyperdimensions and the Process of Alien Abduction on 'UFO Undercover' with radio show host Joe Montaldo.

Transcript below.


[First four minutes of the show are missing]

Laura: It's controversial, nothing is cut and dried and when you read things that are published in magazines and newspapers by some breathless journalist whose writing a story, trying to excite you about something, you can pretty well figure out that he probably doesn't have it right.

Joe: Well, a lot of it is just what it is, it's for the shock value, it's nothing more than that, it's how much, well unfortunately in the States especially shock value sells.

Laura: How many times have you read an article, "The universe is going to end in the big crunch", and then the next day you read an article, "Expert says universe will expand forever"? Well, which one of these experts is right? That's the kind of controversy that goes on in science.

Joe: Well they're probably both right, we'll probably expand forever and then one day we'll probably implode, they're probably both right, they just haven't figured it out yet. And since, I learned a long time ago, nothing is wasted in the universe, everything is recycled, so even if we implode, we'll just start over again.

Laura: Exactly.

Joe: For me in some science I have to wonder, because there's some things that I have to wonder about, like, 2 decades ago we were all talking about water on Mars, of course science said no, no, of course now we know that's wrong, that there is. And we've all been saying that there's life on Mars of some sort, form or fashio. Finally they're admitting that, yeah there probably is some type of life on Mars. It just seems like the mainstream science is always 20 to 30 years behind the visionaries and it's a shame because you would think by now they would have learned, that science would have learned, because a lot of our technologies are based from Sci-Fi, from science fiction.

Laura: Oh, yeah. And much of science, today, mainstream science is no longer true science.

Joe: Oh, no. Today it's about...

Laura: It's a religion.

Joe: It's the religion of science and how much money can I make and how much fame can I get.

Laura: Yeah, and what gets funded is generally what is popular. You have to understand that science is the tool of governments to control the masses of humanity, and therefore they don't want science to be free and to reveal all their secrets. They want to control it, so what gets funded is what they approve, and what doesn't get funded is what doesn't get done.

Joe: Well, I just came back, a couple of weeks ago I was at a meeting at Tulane University amongst a group of physicists and I asked them, point blank, "How come we don't have any scientists that are in it for the love of science and not in it for the grants or the loans or the fame or the money?" And of course a lot of them got offended, but, several of them got up there and addressed the question, "Well you know, it's not what it used to be, you have to do something popular to get a grant or a loan, schools won't fund you unless it's something that is popular and mainstream or something that society is interested in and there's not a lot of true science anymore. Let me have a million dollars so I can go find out why a particular thing works." You just don't see that kind of science anymore.

Laura: No, it's very, very, bad for humanity.

Joe: It is, it is. And it's going to hurt us in the long run because there's no true science. And I don't want to send, because I know there's a lot of scientists listening to my show, I don't want to offend anyone because I know a lot of you out there are doing hard core research, but, from the ones I've had on this show I know a lot of them are not doing what their heart wants to do.

Laura: Exactly. And they need to be doing what is in their heart to do, what drives them, because that's where the true creativity is and creativity is the primary moving force of the universe, and it manifests through people and through science.

Joe: It's just a strange little beast that we live in today. But you know, I did hear a Nobel laureate the other day talking about how peaceful the planet is and how nice the planet is, well, he's making a point and he's actually very correct and he's going to win another award for this. If you take where we are today based on where we were 50 years ago, or even a hundred or a thousand. We're much more peaceful, there's less people dying of starvation or war than ever before on the planet, especially considering there's six billion of us today. And he's got a very good point, he said he doesn't understand why humanity is always waiting for the other shoe to drop. He said instead of taking advantage of the most plentiful, most peaceful time the planets ever existed, most people are sitting at their home wining, crying and moaning, waiting for the other shoe to drop. He had a good point and it's a tough one to get around. So he made a joke about this which is probably in poor taste, but he made a joke, well maybe extra-terrestrials will come and wake us up or help us to understand that we're better off than we realize.

Laura: Well I'd like to see his statistics.

Joe: Well no, it was already looked over by a large group of people, and it is a true fact, there is less people starving today than even just 10 years ago, and there's no major wars going on the planet at all, none. There's no World War 2's, there's no Roman empires or British empires or French empires conquering the world, there's none of that going on. You've got a couple of little brush skirmishes and that's about it and...

Laura: You call Iraq a brush skirmish?

Joe: Oh, yeah. 53 million dead in World War 2, 4000 dead in Iraq, yeah, I call it a brush skirmish. It's a big difference, it's not a world war, all of our citizens aren't involved and we don't have literally millions of troops deployed, to me, that's a war. When we deploy all of our forces and we've got all of our branches out and going, that's a war. What we're doing right now is the same thing we did in Vietnam, we're baby sitting and trying to correct someone else's problems. Let's be honest about it, if the United States wanted to, they could end Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan in one swift blow, without even putting any troops on the ground.

Laura: Whose problems are we trying to correct?

Joe: Not ours!

Laura: Well I mean, we created the problem.

Joe: Oh I agree, we created the problem, I won't even argue with you there, I agree we created it. I agree that we've created several problems on the planet.

Laura: Like the pharmaceutical industry, they create diseases and then they sell you the cure.

Joe: Oh yeah, I heard our emperor the other day that he's going to give us, at least make some of the more needed medicines, free in the United States. I'm like, yeah, I'll wait for hell to freeze over and then maybe we'll see that. Don't get me wrong, if he does it, it'll be great, I just don't think it's going to happen.

Laura: Why don't they just get a universal health care plan and then they don't have to make the medicines free.

Joe: That's true, but you see, they don't even want to talk about that.

Laura: But they could sell them for a dollar.

Joe: You know, they don't want to talk about giving everyone in the States... I guess, you know what it is, I don't think they want us to live that long. I think they're already worried that there's too many of us and we can't afford what we have in this country as it is.

Laura: Well there is too many of us, but I don't think their solution is the right one, I think education is the right one.

Joe: And I don't think going around killing people for the sake of killing people is going to help anything, because basically that's what we're doing in Iraq. I mean, there's no real threat to us over there or in Afghanistan. There might have been, but there's not now and frankly...

Laura: Don't forget about oil.

Joe: Yeah, yeah, oil, we need to keep our oil supply running and...

Laura: And it could be a trigger for a world war.

Joe: Yeah, well, you know, the Bible says that's where the third world war starts. Well it didn't call it the third world war, but that's where they say Armageddon starts, it is in the Middle East. And it's a good chance now that Iran's launching missiles over there right now so we might see something, but... See, I worry when we have presidents like Obama in office because he's kind of wishy-washy and he's not a very strong president, so you tend to see more stuff flare up around the world when the United States has weak presidents in office, like when Jimmy Carter was in office.

Laura: I don't think there's been a truly freely elected president since John Kennedy.

Joe: Oh, actually they say since Truman, or no, Roosevelt. They say he was the last of the presidents that was elected by the people.

Laura: That's probably true.

Joe: Kennedy was a given and I think they realized when they did that, just like they did with Obama, they made a mistake.

Laura: I don't know, Obama's playing their game.

Joe: He is now. As a matter of fact, Richard Dolan a couple of weeks ago was on my show and he called him 'Bush lite' and by the way I loved that.

Laura: Oh, he's absolutely right, I agree 100%.

Joe: I love that term, you now, I've been using it ever since, I had to tell Richard thanks because it's a good term.

Laura: But you know what, he may turn out to be worse than Bush.

Joe: He might, he might, you might be right. There's some stuff that he's doing right now that, like, it was bad because, day before yesterday, he was on talking about Guantanamo Bay and releasing the prisoners in the United States. Of course Congress shot that down, they told him he was losing his mind. But what was really bad, as he did his hour and 20 minute lecture, tried to run it over so the networks wouldn't pick up Cheney. Cheney came on and did a beautiful lecture, made Obama look like a total idiot and has gone up 15 points in the poles because of it, he was at 26 now he's at like 42. And it hurt Obama bad, he did he sounded like a spoilt kid that couldn't get his way, that's what Obama sounded like.

And I don't know what we're going to do. We haven't had a president like this since Carter, he's just, he thinks because he's the president everything should be his way, I guess he doesn't understand what bipartisanship is and. But it's like John Podesta when he was talking about, the US should release its documents and Stephen telling me, "Oh, Obama's going to be the one that gets the information out," I had to tell him, I said, "I don't think he can, I don't think he has the strength or the backing to make this, to disclose anything to the general population." I know in Europe they've been talking a lot and they've been releasing a lot of information but nothing of any consequence, nothing that is changing anything. France put out some information a few years ago, England put out some, a couple of other countries did. And I said this 10 years ago, I said it doesn't matter what countries put out data, until the President of the United States or the President of the UN steps up and says extra-terrestrials are real, it's not going to matter. They're not going to believe anybody else, they're just not, nobody else has the credibility.

Laura: Well, look at all that has come out from very respectable sources and how those sources are then defamed, destroyed.

Joe: Tore down to nothing, yeah, that's typical.So what made you brave enough to get out and decide to get into this alternative world as I like to call it.

Laura: Well, you know it kind of snuck up on me, because as I keep telling people, that of all the people who never wanted to know anything about UFO's or so called aliens, I deserve a place at the head of the line. And that's true, this is not something I ever wanted to know anything about, or cared about. I spent most of my life dabbling in the paranormal, metaphysics, studying, reading, working as a hypnotherapist. My range of expertise was things like past life regression and relaxation therapy and guided imagery and all those sorts of airy fairy type things. And I didn't believe in it, necessarily, I just knew that the therapy worked and people liked it and they came for it and it was interesting and a curiosity to me. And the idea of ever encountering anything having to do with aliens was the furthest thing from my mind. I wrote a book about so-called Biblical prophecies at one point and somebody read it and they said, "Well you didn't say anything about UFO's in here." And I said, "Well sure I did, there's a sentence in there talking contentiously about the alien rapture theory," which is what I called it. And that was the extent of what I said, one sentence. And the person was appalled, and it was really strange because not too long after this was when... And this is when the high strangeness factor comes in, no sooner do you have the conversation some things start happening.

And that was not too long after I saw the UFO with my children and that's when I started trying to find out what the heck was what I saw, because what I saw, just simply, there was no explanation for it in normal aeronautical terms, just none. And I have a cousin who's a aerospace engineer, works at NASA, and I have people in my family who are engineers and so forth, so everybody said what you're describing could not have happened. And I tried to get confirmation from other people, that they could explain this thing for me and nobody could explain it. And in fact people started to say that I was losing my mind. Well I wasn't losing my mind because I saw it and so did other people that I knew, and so did my children, we all were describing the same thing.

Well, not too long after that was when my first abductee contacted me for a hypnotherapy session, and since I did not believe in this phenomenon I was determined to prove that it was some other kind of experience. I did a lot of leading, which I don't normally do, just to try to lead the person into describing something else, like an early childhood memory, or maybe a disguised past life memory, or maybe there was some abuse in early childhood, something like this. I was deliberately trying to make it go the other way, and it didn't work. And so I'm thinking to myself, well you know, this is crazy. I'm reading these articles where these people say that it's all suggestion on the part of the hypnotist, when somebody comes up with an abduction scenario. And this is clearly not what has happened here because I know what I'm doing here and I was not suggesting to this person that they had an alien abduction experience. I was doing, in fact, the exact opposite.

And one thing lead to another and it got wilder and I started reading about it because I was extremely curious. I read everything I could get my hands on, I was reading 18 hours a day sometimes, until my eyes bled. And there was just so much stuff and so much noise and so many different opinions and so many investigators and so little science and it just got crazy, and I couldn't get any hard and fast answers from anybody about anything. Nobody had a really good theory that covered all of the data, because everybody had different sets of data, and it just made me crazy.

And since I couldn't find any answers, I started thinking, well, I read about all of these people who did this channeling. And of course that was another thing, because if you start considering, say, a UFO or an alien hypothesis, what does that do to the paranormal? I mean, people have been studying and talking and reading and writing and experimenting with paranormal topics for well over a century, and none of them are ever talking about aliens, how do aliens fit in to that picture, because if there's such a thing as aliens and UFO's, that changes everything! I mean, everything I thought that I had settled, I had organized and all of my little categories, it was all out the window!

And this was very distressing to me, so, having made a really long study for years of so-called channeling and experimental communication with other realms of experience, I said, well, if there's any way to get an answer, about any of this, or any possible clue, that might be the way to do it. You couldn't necessarily rely on anything you got 100% because there's always a noise to signal ratio. But I decided to try, but I knew that I had to do it in a way and under circumstances that are a little more rigorous than just somebody sitting down putting a pyramid on their head and saying, "Ok, talk to me."

And I started this, what I called, a critical channeling experiment, which is in a fully conscious state using a board type instrument, and with other people present, participating, it's not just a one person thing. And using a kind of vigorous feedback algorithm, to check and cross check everything that came through, minute by minute, hour by hour, or whatever, session by session, and went through this for like 2 years. Once or twice a week for 2 years. Until finally, a signal came through, that seemed to be very intelligent and very internally consistent, and gave some information that actually began to make some sense out of things. And of course there were some testable things that came through, but there were many things that were not testable. When you're looking for information about something you know nothing about, that's going to be the way it is, you're going to have to hold some things in a questionable category.

So that was what happened and we started recording all this information over this period of time, and it was delivered letter by letter and nobody, usually nobody knew what was being said until after it was read back, you had to put your word breaks in, because all the letters were delivered all in one continuous stream without breaks. So you have to go in and you have to make the word breaks yourself, and figure out what's being said.

And the source identified itself, it said, "We are you in the future". This is not an extra-terrestrial source, I mean, forget it, "We are you in the future". So basically I'm talking to myself in the future. In a sense, if there is no time and if I am in contact with some part of my mind that's in another dimension, where there is no time, it makes perfect sense, you make contact with your own self, your own brain, that can look back on the past and give you answers of what it knows because it experienced it as time flowed by, which makes sense, right?

So, that was basically what happened and my main concern was to ask questions about this so-called alien reality. So I asked quite a series of questions about that, but then, once I had certain number of questions along that line answered I thought, well, wait, wait a minute, what have I got here? I've got this source that's answering these questions. Now, there are all these other questions that I have about history and about conspiracies and about who did what, when, where, how and why, and what does this mean, and how does that work. So why don't I just ask all the questions that I've always had, that I always wondered, what the answer was and never had an answer, nobody else knows either. So let me just get them all in here while I'm at it, so that's what I did.

Joe: You might as well ask. Hey, it never hurts to ask. I tell people all the time, I ask all kind of questions, because it never hurts to ask.

Laura: I mean it was like having a new toy.

Joe: We do massive amounts of case studies. I'm very fortunate, I have an organization with 15,000 members and directors all over the planet, all over the country. We've actually investigated, we've got, we have a criteria for of this stuff now, and what we do is...

Laura: Well you see, I've read those kinds of cases. I've read cases, cases, cases, cases.

Joe: No, not like this. We have most of this stuff, because abduction criteria is closely guarded by the organization, we don't release this information. And the reason why is, we would never know who is lying and telling the truth. And it's the reason we do it, but, as of today we have 12,500 cases on file. We've actually been through more than, about 47,000 people to get that. And some of them turn out to be what you were talking about earlier.

You know, a lot of times we can recover memories and stuff without using regression, sometimes we have to, sometime we don't, there's other methods we use as well. But you'd be surprised how many times a supposed contact or alien abduction turns out to be some type of childhood problem. Anywhere from being abused sexually or being abused physically, to several other things. I have no idea why they turn this into an alien abduction, or an alien contact or an alien visitation, but they do. And you know, it's a shame, but we just refer them to psychologists because there's nothing we can do for them, it's not what we do. But what we've done, along with Yvonne Smith and Mary Rodwell and Darrel Sims and a few others, there's Katarina Wilson and half a dozen others, is we're actually at a 80-84% agreeable, this is a first in ufology. On all the data that we've gathered together, which is a lot, we're at about 84% agreeable, which has never happened in this field before.

And its major news, it's all over the place because you just don't see that many ufologists ever agreeing on data. But the problem is, in this type of research, if it's truly what it is, then it can only go certain ways. If it's something else then it's something else and it won't fall into this category. And it makes this real sticky and we tell this to people all the time. People here speak, they assume that we're saying that 3 or 4 or 5 types of aliens we investigate is the only thing visiting the planet, and I tell them, I say, "This is what we do, it does not limit anything else that may be going on, on the planet, or anything else contacts coming from other dimensions or across other places," I said, "those are separate from what we do," and there's other people like yourself, there's other people investigating those things. And we have to investigate everything, because if you don't, there's no way of ever knowing what's true and what's not, and that's one of the biggest problems in this field. There's a lot of...

Laura: There's a lot of noise.

Joe: Yeah, there's a lot of noise. That's a very good way of putting it Laura, there's a lot of noise.

Laura: Well that was why I stopped doing it. I mean, you have the book, I put the book together because people wanted me to put to book together, they wanted to hear what my experiences had been and they wanted the material so I put it together, but I don't do that anymore, and the reason I don't do that anymore was because of the noise.

Joe: I imagine you caught ton of flack.

Laura: Oh I got a ton of flack and all I could see was fighting and nobody imposing any rigorous standards on what they were doing. Even if you have to make modifications to your standards because of the field you're working with, it still should be somewhat rigorous, there should be a method.

Joe: I agree, I agree with you.

Laura: So I just completely got out of it and...

Joe: It's a shame because that's the reason we formed this organization because places like MUFON really didn't have anything strict about how to handle contacts or abductions or investigations along these lines. And I got to say, we're very, very strict and we really are in this for hard data as much as possible. We do a lot of comparison study work too, because unfortunately in this particular subject, a lot of times that's all you can do because there's no physical tangible evidence, but, there is some tangible physical evidence.

Laura: There is some and I had a case once that had some, and 2 or 3 other so-called UFO researchers heard about it and they swooped down on this poor woman and snatched up that evidence. I had a private investigator who was going to pass it to a police lab as crime evidence without any terms like UFO's or abduction or anything like that, so there would be no prejudice in the examination. And these UFO investigators, so-called, swooped down on it, snatched it, told the girl, the poor woman, "Oh, you don't want it to go to a police lab, it's a big conspiracy, they're all out to get you, this is going to cause you a bunch of problems, dadadadah, give it to us, give it to us." And so what they did is, they took it and they shook it out on a shower curtain.

Joe: Sorry, I just got to laugh, that sounds like something that that sort of these idiots would do.

Laura: And you know, after that happened and watching how people's minds could... And of course, somebody who has really had an experience, they are traumatized. They're traumatized to a level that's almost impossible to imagine. And, basically in my opinion a crime has been committed.

Joe: Yes, it's one of the things I say all the time and I get complained about because I say it.

Laura: Well, so if you have a crime, somebody has been taken against their will and very often they have been supposedly raped.

Joe: In some cases they have been. I got to say when I first got involved in this 25 years ago the first time somebody told me I looked at them, "well you're just stupid", and, after really getting into this field and spending as long as have been in it I realized that some of these people are actually telling the truth. And there was these physical things going, and actually there's a lot more that goes on, but you know, it was just surprising to me and it does depend on what alien species we're talking about too. On some of the things that are happening, reptilians are famous for having fun with the ladies, they're actually quite famous, but not quite as evil as everybody thinks they are, but still they're not real nice guys.

Laura: I think they are more evil than anybody.

Joe: Well, a lot of people do and I do understand that because there's a lot of things that suggest that they're quite a bit evil, which there are some things in there, but we learned a long time ago because of the amount of people and witnesses we have that they're not the most evil by any means, that are visiting the planet. The human type aliens are much, much more evil, than the reptilians are, but, I don't want to take anything away from what they're doing either. People get confused when they hear us talking, this is just levels of badness I'm talking about here, I'm not saying that either race is really good. And I've got a firm rule, I judge everything by its action.

I had people from time to time that tell me that they had a really good experience with the reptilians or the human aliens, but I asked them did they call you on the phone and say, "Hey Jane, can I come and pick you up, can I do this to you?" "Well no, they just came and took me," I said, "Well they abducted you, which, in this country is a crime punishable by death". You can't go around kidnaping people, it's a crime and in some states it is punishable by death, some by mandatory life sentences and if it was a diplomat or something it would be an act of war with another country. So I'm like, I said I don't understand how you all can consider this a good experience if they took you against your will. Regardless what happened in the abduction, still, they took you against you're will. So, I've always had this thing of judging them by their actions, and until they start calling them up on the phone and say, "Hey Laura, you know what, I want to come take you out to dinner and I want to tell you why we're here visiting the planet", that is a legitimate contact, you know. If they come take you in the middle of the night or the middle of the day or on your drive to work or while you're sitting having dinner, no that's not, that is an abduction.

Laura: Yeah, that's right.

Joe: It's hard and it causes a big turmoil in the field because people want to talk about their good contact experiences which, I'm very skeptical to start off with, but, they don't want to discuss that they were abducted when this happened, they want to leave that part out. It's like selective memories or lets selectively tell the truth here, and that makes me crazy.

Laura: Yeah, and I think that a lot of that kind of reaction can be explained if people would read the book by Martha Stout called The Myth of Sanity. It's about dissociation, how when terrible things happen, a channel of your mind will dissociate off.

Joe: I think I've got that, I think I've actually heard that on audiotape. So I'm very funny, I don't have much time for reading now, so any chance I get, I'll find someone to either transcribe a book for me onto an audio file, or if it's already, because some books, a lot of books are these days, so I can plug it into my cd at work or in my car when I'm driving, because I've got to tell you I do a lot of research on proxy while I'm on the road, because we do a lot of travelling and it's just easier for me. Or, now, when I do read sometimes it's like when we're doing other shows, because I own the station, a lot of times when I'm producing other shows, when the show is on, a lot of the time I'll sit there and read or I'll listen to something else, because I can listen to the shows anytime, they're all on archive so it's not a problem. Oh, Karen says hi by the way I forgot to say that, I'd seen her in the virtual auditorium a few minutes ago.

Laura: Tell Karen hi.

Joe: She heard you.

Laura: We hope to see you here soon.

Joe: Yeah, we're hoping they go over to France this year. I'm sure Karen would love to go over to France, I might not be able to get her to come back. She might stay over there and poor Richard would have to raise the kids all by himself and stuff.

Laura: Oh, he likes it too.

Joe: Oh, I know he would. I always hear it's quite beautiful over there. I've got a lot of friends that travel over there. I've got a standing invitation to go spend some time in Italy, I just haven't had the chance to do it, so I'm planning on doing that, hopefully next year some time. We're working with a group over there restoring a church and the reason I got involved, because my last name is Montaldo and there's a big providence up there that's Montaldo and they actually contacted me. aAnd I come to find out they got a church there, and they're restoring all the artwork, the church is about 1350 years old. And get this, in one of the murals on the wall is 2 UFO's. When they heard my last name they contacted me and when they heard what I did they were even more fascinated.

Laura: Oh that's amazing, it's the high strangeness, ha?

Joe: Yeah it is, it is, that's exactly what it is. It's like when you were talking about one thing that lead to another, which lead to another. I think sometimes people, and I hate to use this word, but I think sometimes people were chosen for certain jobs. I don't know who's choosing, I don't know if it's aliens, or some higher order, and I hate to even speculate on that, but I have seen this too many times. I've seen normal everyday people doing something entirely different in their life, all of a sudden they'll start to get wrapped up in this. And for no other reason than that they ran into this person and then this came to their attention and this and then that and then the next thing they knew, they were writing books or they were so involved in this, they were doing research and a lot of people...

Laura: It drives me crazy.

Joe: It does. And a lot of people, a lot of times, it just takes over your life for a while. There's no normal explanation for this.

Laura: No, there isn't and that's why I became so desperate, and, like I said, when I said I was reading 18 hours a day, this went on for a couple of years and I became so desperate for answers because there was so much noise and so much B.S.

Joe: Well there's a lot of B.S.

Laura: And that's why I said, well let me try this and see what happens. I felt so desperate for answers that here was a lot of information that was really scary. When you thought about it, it was really scary and it needed an answer. So that was one of the reasons, I was driven by a sense of desperation. But even so, I wasn't going to let my sense of desperation take possession of my mind and make me believe anything that came down the pipe. So we get this set of answers, this started in 1994. For years we considered it to be just an interesting artifact, oh yes they say this is going to happen, isn't that quaint, blah blah blah, new world order, control of society, blah blah blah. Because back in 1994 none of us could conceive of how we could get from there to here, we couldn't conceive of something like 911.

Joe: Oh yeah.

Laura: And then they would talk about coming ice ages and climate change and they were talking about this 14 years ago. And so, in that time, back in 2001, that's when everything they were talking about in 1994, at that point it was like, 5 or 6 years before, it all started happening. And that's when I started thinking, wait a minute, what have we been doing, let's look at this again here. Because what they're saying, there are not exact details on every point, there is some noise in that material also because that's the way things are. I'm not a perfect receiver and the conditions are not always perfect, I do the best I can. So there's some noise, but damn, it's a marvelously consistent body of material. It surprises even me.

Joe: Well, it does happen. People lock into what ever means it may be and it differs from person to person. I'm not sure why, but, they do start getting consistent information. We got lucky, because we started comparing people like yourself and others, and seeing what each one was finding, and we found a whole realm of stuff hidden below all of this because we could do a large comparison study, which no-one had done before. Until we came along, no-one had done a comparison study amongst contactees, and/or experiences. There's so many names we can use, but nobody had really done any comparison studies about what this one was saying and what that one was saying. And we do find what we call a base thing, that's going to happen to all contactees. We know certain age groups and certain things are going to go on in these age groups with different types of aliens, because now we've got enough cases to see it.

Laura: Well do we know what's going to happen, do these same individuals have a track record of having other things that they said actually happen? That's the question.

Joe: Well see, it depends on the person. Some of these people have actually been quite good in their entire life of knowing what was coming. I'll give you an example, like 911. We have an online support group, we've had since about 98, and right before, about 2 months before 911 they all started writing in or commenting and saying how antsy they were and how weird feeling they were. No-one said anything about the twin towers coming down but everyone had a pending sense of doom, all of them did.

Laura: Well you see, in our body of material, in the Cassiopaean transmission we actually had specific information that related to the twin towers.

Joe: Yeah. And it was just a strange phenomena, you just never know what they're going to hit on and what they're not, and it's just strange. It was like something that happened in Iraq, I forgot what it was. We had a group come in about 2 weeks before it happened and they all wrote it down and documented what it was and it was damn good. It had something to do with a counter attack by the insurgents, but, they were right on the money. But now, the thing of it is, did someone tell them this, did they see this in the future, or how did they actually attain this information is always one of the things I'm curious about, because if people even have a basic understanding of time travel, they know if you go and come back, you've changed it, so how could it have happened in the first place? So of course it gets real complicated and real sticky there, but still, you got to wonder about all of that. So where's the data actually coming from? Is there someone sitting outside of our time and space watching, what's going on? Somebody can see now, past, present and future all at the same time? Because that's the only way time travel could work anyway if everything existed at the same time anyway, it's the only way really you could access information both backwards and forwards is if everything existed at the same time.

Laura: Well I think that it's rather like Ouspensky's description of the snail travelling across the garden. To the snail everything that he encounters as he crawls along the ground, and his vision is, of course, very limited, it all happens to him in time. But a bird flying above the snail crawling across the ground can see that where the snail has been still is there, the different direction that the snail can go in the future or in the forward motion, are all there. Of course the snail will only experience one line of experiences depending on which direction he takes, but they're all there. So the bird can see them all, but the snail can't.

Joe: Yeah, and that's like the multiple dimension theory where there's one of us in the next couple of billion dimensions.

Laura: I think there are many of us who have some part of our inner consciousness, for lack of a better word, that connects with this higher level, where we have this bird's eye view of the world.

Joe: Well, there's no real way to explain some of the information that people come up with.

Laura: Yeah. And they're connected.

Joe: Yeah.

Laura: And many people have it, they have these feelings and it is amazing to see how accurate some so-called psychic predictions, for lack of a better, I hate the terminology...

Joe: Well that's a good point Laura, because we have discussed this many times over the last 10 years. The terminology, both in ufology and paranormal is so out of date for the time that there really needs to be new terms.

Laura: We need a new language for it.

Joe: We do, I agree with you 100%, we really do need a new language and it's a sad thing. Like the word ufology, I'm not a ufologist, I do abduction research, I don't study UFO's.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, what's the word paranormal really mean?

Joe: Yeah, that's the thing, that's a broad term, when you say paranormal.

Laura: And psychic phenomena?

Joe: Yeah, what is psychic phenomena? I ask that question all the time, but I get chewed out for asking that question. "What do you mean what is psychic phenomena?" I said, "Well, what is it?" And of course they'll list like 30 different things, I say, "Well wait, they can't all be psychic phenomena, we got to pick something here and say this is a psychic phenomena and this is this..." And they don't want to do that because it limits what can be said and done. And I've been told that we're trying to hold onto too strict evidence criteria, but we're not, I just want things to be labelled.

Laura: No, it's not that. But there's another thing, because there's several groups of scientific researchers that are working in "paranormal". And the thing is that once they got to the point where it was accepted that they could be scientists and they could study this as a scientific field, they actually became so rigid that what they were doing excludes most of what it is they claim to be studying. They want to spend all their time having these little meters, and people coming in and running trials and looking at cards and so on and so forth. Repeatable experiments, that's what they want to do. And it's like I said, you can't have repeatable experiments, you can't know the position and momentum at the same time and they're doing it. And the so-called paranormal researchers that consider themselves of the scientific ilk, have put themselves in ivory towers where they're completely out touch with what they're trying to study, what they're trying to understand.

Joe: That's true and I've said that myself. I don't exactly when the separation started but it does seem like it's getting worse.

Laura: And the difference, the world or the chasm between paranormal, I hate that word, paranormal researchers and people who study the UFO and/or abduction phenomena.

Joe: But you see that's the thing too, and people get mad when I say this, but, there are some correlations between abductees and some what you would call paranormal events.

Laura: Absolutely, one of the biggest things about the whole UFO/alien abduction phenomena is the so-called high strangeness factor. And that high strangeness factor is exactly correlated to a whole lot of historical, so-called, paranormal experience.

Joe: The two are interchangeable and there seems to be a direct connection, not in everything, mind you, but a lot.

Laura: So how much of the old time paranormal stuff was, say, UFO or alien abduction inspired and/or vice versa.

Joe: Well it's like when I mentioned one day, we have several pastors and stuff that have joined our organisation and I had one of them on the show with me a couple of years ago. And I asked him, I said I remember hearing the story of Mary when I was a kid growing up, roaming around in the desert and coming back pregnant, I mean, this is classic alien abduction by the way. Well he got offended, he said, "What are you saying, Jesus Christ is alien?" I'm saying it is a possibility.

Laura: Say, "I didn't say it, you did."

Joe: That's what I said, I said I'm just saying guys, I mean Ezekiel, that's classic alien abduction, Mary, that's classic alien abduction. And of course, I've been heavily criticised, which I don't mind, I mean I'm a big boy.

Laura: Fairy experiences.

Joe: And how much of this so-called fairy experiences and a lot of the gremlins and stuff that were seen back in the day were not actually extra-terrestrials? See, there's no way for us to know because none of us were there, and we need to know because we need to know what would actually be considered paranormal for a lack of better word.

Laura: And what about poltergeist phenomena? Poltergeists are one of the oldest recorded phenomena.

Joe: And where does that fit in, it's a tough one.

Laura: And apports, disappearing objects and reappearing objects.

Joe: Oh, I don't even want to talk about things like that, because my keys go... You know, Laura, I got the damnedest luck, sometimes I will set something down, I mean set it down right here in front of the computer where I'm sitting, get up, go get a coke, come back, it's gone. Then I'm looking all over the house and then all of a sudden, I come back it's sitting where I left it, I'm like, ok. Now, to me, that's just irritating to start off with and I don't know what it is.

Laura: The cat walked by twice.

Joe: You know, my friend tells me the other day, he said, "Well maybe your dogs are getting it," I said, "I don't think so, you mean they're getting it and bringing it back, they're not that smart guys, come on."

Laura: And that whole thing is one of the reasons I called this book High Strangeness.

Joe: Well that's a good name for it. So far most of what I've read in the book, I've been alright with, I'm always weary about the word "channelled", I'm not going to lie to you.

Laura: Well, I understand.

Joe: I'll be honest with you, have you ever met Nancy Leader?

Laura: I interacted with her years back on Mike Linderman's show.

Joe: Well she is the one that actually made me have a hard time with channelling. Before that I actually thought it wasn't that bad of a thing, but she did this Zeta Nancy talk with.

Laura: This stuff was so horrible it's not even funny.

Joe: Half way through the show I had to start laughing, then I started getting confused, well who am I talking to, Nancy or this Zeta, and I said why can't I just talk to damn Zeta myself and she got mad at me. But, I wasn't trying to be offensive, I was trying to understand, because I'm a researcher and when you tell me stuff I want to understand it. So, she kind of tainted my view on channelling a little bit, but fortunately I've got some friends like Tuesday Miles who are working in the paranormal field that are actually really good and really legitimate researchers.

Laura: Yeah, well I welcome, I've had people come and they've brought various kinds of electronic meters, ghost meters and stuff around. And when we're working we can bury those needles and I don't know how it happens, I can't tell you, I can't explain it to you.

Joe: Because you're drawing on that energy, that's why.

Laura: Yeah, and we've had so-called poltergeist phenomena happen when we're sitting at the board, and it's always funny because, people say, "Well you're going to have a session of table tilting," I said, "Well let me tell you what, if that table moves I'm out of there!"

Joe: I'm with you on that, time to leave buddy. A friend of mine wanted us to go on a ghost hunt with him.

Laura: Forget it.

Joe: I said I tell you what, because I live in New Orleans, and there's lots of ghosties down here, I said, if I walk in and the ghost even looks at me I'm gone, I said, I'm out of here. He said, well let me get this right, you'll go chase aliens down but you won't talk to ghosts, I said, you're right, I'd rather mess with the alien. I said I got a rule, don't mess with dead people and they won't mess with you.

Laura: Yeah, I mean I had one, you know, ghostly encounter when my grandfather died, you know one of those...

Joe: One of those revisits, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, when somebody dies and you hear and experience it. He was in the hospital and I was at home and then he basically came home, and all kinds of poltergeist experiences, sounds and effects, but nothing was moved, nothing was changed, that's why a refer to it that way, it was auditory. But that's the only one I ever had and that's the only one want I ever want to have. For me channelling is done in a brightly lighted room and there's lots of people around and there's a lot of conversation that goes on the whole time that it's going on, and if you can't, I mean, come on, if you can't establish contact with a source that is robust enough that it can interact with you as a normal conscious, fully functional human being and the other people around you, what good is it?

Joe: That's true, that's a good point.

Laura: If you got to sing chants and light candles and do incense and all that nonsense and go into a trance, that's a disabling profession.

Joe: Yeah, well, and see that's a good point, if you can't work while there's other people around and it's busy then, you're right, you might as well just move on to another source because that's just not something that's working there.

Laura: So I invite you to read it.

Joe: Well, I'm going to finish it and I'll probably get you back on after I finish it, but so far I haven't really had any problems with it. And I heard so much flack for poor Richard, and when I first got this I was like, because literally, for some reason, ICAR consider us ufology people policeman. Any time anything goes on ufology that someone don't like, we get emails. Well, I literally got 300 plus emails over this book. And some of them were taking up for it and some of them were criticising Richard for endorsing it, some were criticising you, but it was a platitude of different things going on here.

So, when I'm not busy I actually respond to my emails, so I wrote back to all these people and I said, well, why don't you tell me exactly what the problem was and why do you have a problem with this, and why do you have a problem with Richard endorsing tis, because I'm curious. The only word I ever heard was the channelling word, and I said well if you're going to just criticise someone for channelling and not go and take everything else at face value then don't bother me. I mean, it's easy to pick one thing out of any book and criticise it, that's not hard to do, anybody can do that. I can find something to criticise in every book I've ever read, regardless how good the book is.

But what I was looking for was an overview, I was wanting them to tell me about the whole book and I actually said this on the air, I said, guys, I got all these emails about this one or two specific things, I said, I want to know what you thought about the book entirely. Well most of the people that wrote back to me really didn't have a problem with the book. So, they were picking on that one thing, and I said, well, why don't you all contact the lady, ask her how she does it, which I thought you explained in the book, but I still said why don't to you write to the lady and ask her, maybe she can help you understand. Then I said, well, you know what, screw all of this, I talked to my wife and said why don't you give Richard a call and see if he can get her on the show and we'll just discuss this on the show and everybody can listen and everybody can make up their own minds. Now, anyone who is listening to this show knows, right now, you are obviously not a nutcase, ok.

Laura: I hope not.

Joe: Well, if they're listening to this conversation it's not that hard of a thing, it's not like your off saying crazy outlandish stuff or anything along those lines. So, people need to pay attention sometimes. I got to be honest with you, I think a lot of this attack on Richard is Richard getting kind of famous now and I think they were just picking on Richard, I really do. I don't think it's any more than that.

Laura: Well, let me tell you a couple of things about channelling itself. There's a lot of people who consider Pythagoras to have been the father of mathematics, he's done many great intellectual things and philosophical things and had the Pythagorean school and so on and so forth. But not a lot of people know that Pythagoras used a channelling device similar to what I do. I don't go into a trance, I don't channel, I don't even consider myself psychic. But he used a device that was on wheels like a planchet, and it pointed to letters or figure or whatever and it spelled out messages. The most respected so-called channelled material in the history of channelling was delivered by a board type device, a prosthetic device. I refer to it as a prosthetic, a translation device. There are a lot of people who immediately say, "Oh well, if you mess with a Ouija board," and it's not even a Ouija board, it's big circle and I have a little round plastic thing, it's almost like writing letters on a circle. I just have a special board and you can buy one, anybody can buy one.

Joe: You're using this so they have a tool to communicate with you with.

Laura: Right. And, the thing is that people get crazy, they say, "Oh you're going to get possessed if you use the board." Well let me tell you, if anything interacts with you when you're using a board, it is something that is already there, you just have not been aware of it. It doesn't have a means of speaking, it doesn't have a voice, it's already there. And if you're using a board all that does is just give a voice to what is already there and wouldn't you rather know that it's already there and have the knowledge to deal with it, than to just go along your whole life and have something hanging around you that you can't get rid of?

And that's just one thing, and the other thing is that the criticism about the use of Ouija boards, because remember they were so popular, they sold it as a game in Wal-Mart or Kmart, whatever. And all of a sudden there was a movie made by Hollywood about a case that was not presented as it really was. There was some guy on the internet, some magazine, and he did a complete study, fairly recently, of this case that the movie The Exorcist was based on, and it was a boy and there was a whole lot of really interesting things. But it had nothing to do with anybody using a Ouija board and getting possessed by it. But because there was a movieized version of some little girl playing with a Ouija board and suddenly getting possessed and then barfing up pea soup and then having her head spin around and throwing priest out the window, the whole paranormal metaphysical world was reduced to jello on the floor saying, "Oh my god, don't touch it you'll get possessed, I've got to burn my Ouija board right now, it's going to attack me as I sleep for god's sake!" It was the most unbelievable thing.

So all these people, who one would think were rational and intelligent, were being stampeded away from something that is a really unique tool for psychic and personal, internal investigation, because of a movie. Isn't that astonishing?

Joe: It is. But see, that's what bothered me about that is because the Ouija board is no different than tarot cards are. And if you're going to criticise one thing you have to criticise both. And actually there's other methods like scurrying and other stuff that we could throw into this loop if we want, but, and I've said this in the past, because I'm not a big fan of any of this because Ouija boards scare the crap out of me, I'll be honest with you. And it has nothing to do with any movie, it has to do with personal experiences as a young man. But, the thing about it is, there's tarot's, there's the Ouija board, there's the rune stones, there's a lot of different things that you can use to communicate with, but, this is what these are, they are communication tools.

Laura: They're tools and you have to learn how to use them, you have to be a trained user.

Joe: You do.

Laura: And you don't get trained without getting trained by... And I'm getting ready to make a set of videos to teach people about this. One of the most important things you need, for example, if you're using any kind of channelling method, and to me the least reliable is trance channelling, or mediums. Well, mediums shift...

Joe: Depends on the medium.

Laura: Exactly. I've read about a lot of great mediums.

Joe: There's some good ones and there's some crazy ones.

Laura: There's some fantastic stuff. But, trance channelling is, and just saying, "Oh well, the voice comes into my," well you know what, there's a whole bunch of people in the fundamentalist Baptist church down the street, that the voice of god comes into their heads, and says, "Go across the ocean and kill a bunch of Iraqis or whatever because God told you to." Presidents even get voices like that in their head. Do not rely on voices in your head, ever, under any circumstances, if you understand dissociation you need to understand that.

So any how, you've got this whole culture that got turned against us. They are wild eyed and scared and acting crazy and irrational and it just boggles the mind. And then all these people come along with these contactee cases. And you read some of the stuff that the contactees come up with and you read some of the channelled space alien, lord Sananda and Ashtar command, and that kind of thing, and then Nancy and the Zetas and so forth. And it all just gives more of the noise to signal ratio.

Joe: But you know, I think sometimes that stuff is put there deliberately to keep people that are doing legitimate work from getting too far in their fields.

Laura: Of course.

Joe: Because every now and then I'll notice that someone will get popular that is obviously full of BS, but they will get popular.

Laura: And they manage to get their books published and they become best sellers. I've got a whole book case of it, I call it the mumbo jumbo shelf.

Joe: And it's true. See for us, we do the base study, so we have the base things that happen with abductions. Now of course, this other world of, I don't want to call it BS, because somebody is telling the truth out there, but, a lot of it is just that, it's interpretations by the individuals which are wrong, they're not correct. A lot of time you can only interpret things with your own life experiences and sometimes your life experiences don't equip you for what you are seeing. Some things we simply can't understand because we're just not that evolved yet.

And so of course we going to put this into human terms which are not going to be correct. That's why I tell people all the time, people get mad, they say, "That contactee is obviously lying," I said, "They're obviously a contactee, if they've had experiences but they're lying, what's the problem?" And I said, "What they're doing, in order to make this work in their own lives, they're incorporating this whole big realm and story around it, so that it will fit into whatever it is that they believe in." And of course that's wrong, but what can you do.

Laura: There's a theory that if your mind is pure, and you come into direct contact with the object, something out there, that you can have full knowledge, that you can embrace it or it will merge with you or whatever. There's some kind of metaphysical mumbo jumbo. Well the fact is that knowledge is based on structure, a system, preparation. For example, if somebody who knows nothing about cars or automobiles encounters in a pure state of mind an automobile engine, all they'll see is a pile of metal and pipes and wires. But if you have somebody who is a trained engineer, he has a structure, a framework, and he encounters this automobile engine, he knows exactly what it is, what it does and how it works. It's the same thing with paranormal phenomena, with channelling phenomena. You have to have a structure, you have to have a framework, you have to have theories on which to base your knowledge. And you also have to be open enough to say that all this could change, I can throw all of this out the window with that additional piece of data that changes everything.

Joe: And it could be anything.

Laura: Yeah.

Joe: I tell people all the time though, don't get your mind set, don't become too dogmatic in your views, because, I've been in this field 25 years and I can tell you myself at least a dozen times I have changed my mind based on new ideas or new evidence that's come into play.

Laura: And I get accused of, because sometimes I change my mind, I write something and it's based on everything I know at the moment, and then 6 months later I learn something else and I'll write something and I'll say, "Well, formally this is what I thought and now, I learned this," and then I get accused of changing my story.

Joe: So you changed your mind, and I've been accused of that, somebody once told me, "Well I heard you 5 years ago say this and now you're saying this." I said, "Because 5 years ago I didn't have all the pieces of that puzzle, now I do."

Laura: The only people on this planet who are absolutely certain are psychopaths.

Joe: Yeah, you're not kidding about that one either. But hold that thought for a minute because we're going to have a to take a quick break here so we can let out break time get into the re-run cue. Guys we're going to be back in about 10 minutes, I want everyone to please stay tuned to UFO Undercover, I'm your host Joe Montaldo, I'm sitting and speaking with Laura Knight-Jadczyk.


Joe: Good afternoon and welcome back to everyone to UFO Undercover, I'm your host Joe Montaldo, I'm sitting and speaking with Laura Knight-Jadczyk this evening about her book High Strangeness, and actually the conversation is going very well so I hope everyone is enjoying the show. For anyone who's tuning in later catching this show, we'll re-air on Wednesday at the regular scheduled time, this is actually a pre-record that we're letting the audience get a little taste of what's going on. Sorry guys, as usual, the breaks are where the good stuff happens, but you all can't hear those because... You know Laura, I tell them all the time, it's a shame we don't record the breaks because some of the conversations at the breaks are better than the actual program. But like I said, it's usually stuff that can't be put on the air, it's stuff that we're discussing either in research or stuff that's just not ready for prime time, as I like to say.

We've been talking about a lot of stuff today and it's really funny to me how people get caught in particular ruts, or they break out of particular ruts, like religion itself, they just get stuck and they can't see beyond that. Like I said, I have no problem with worshipping or being spiritual or anything along those lines, it's just I don't see where religion is actually serving a purpose in mainstream society anymore, other than causing problems. Let's be honest, we can say whatever we want to say about the Middle East and the United States, but basically what's going on over there, this is 2 different idiocies, I mean, we've got the Muslim world and the Christian world and they hate each other. And I don't see it changing any time soon and I hate to say it, but, there was a study done about 60 years ago, 75% of all the major wars on this planet happened over religion, the other 25% happened either over land or women. I was kind of like, huh, the women one through me for a loop and then someone reminded me about...

Laura: Helen of Troy.

Joe: Yeah, Helen, and then there was something about the queens of England as well, I said, well, yeah I guess that is true. But it's strange in itself, but what can we do.

Laura: I think that many people have a need to make contact with the transcendent. I think that's the urge for religious experience and that is taken and twisted by man created religions and twisted and used and forted for personal agendas or purposes. They use people's urge for this transcendent experience to get them involved in a religion and then they begin to gradually degrade the religion and then they use the appearance of the religion to, in the name of this god, in order to have this transcendent experience, you must go kill these people over there because they are threating your transcendents, is what I think happens. But, this need that people have is very real and I think we should honour it in a certain sense because there's a lot of power in people getting together and having some kind of a ritual communion, so to speak. And it doesn't have to be enacting certain things in a mindless sort of way.

An example is, there are a groups of women who get together now, who talk about their abuse experiences and this might even work for people who have had abduction experiences and they get together and they build a bond fire and they talk about their experiences, each one of them, and each of the others acknowledges that persons experience. They may write something down about the experience on a piece of paper or have some object, and they go around the circle, and then at a certain point they will take that paper and they will put it in the fire and they'll burn it and maybe they'll sing before or sing afterwards to get themselves harmonised together, to sort of connect their chakras together. And it can be a very moving and transcendent experience, and they can have a lot of relief, and it enables them to go on with their lives, people who have had very painful and troubling experiences.

So when you have people who have a difficult time dealing with life on a day to day basis, because let's face it, reality sucks. When you face reality, and this was one of the little things we just mentioned on the break, reality is depressing, you get depressed, I mean there's just no question about it, and you have to have some way of making contact with that part of yourself that inducts creative energy into your being, so that you can continue to go on and deal with this reality that's been run by psychopaths to your detriment.

That's how I feel about religion, I think that spiritual, mutually agreed ceremonial... Let me get rid of the word ritual, ceremony. Ceremony for groups is very, very powerful and I think if we can find rational ways to deal... And not a set of actions that somebody else prescribes for you, find out what works for you, for your group, create your own ceremony. Every situation can have its own ceremony, you make it up as you go along, it has to be meaningful in a dynamic and interactive way with the universe in which you live.

Joe: Well, that's a good point, it's like when I was young and I'd see the suggestion or the power of prayer, for lack of a better way of saying it, but I've seen sick people get healed, I've seen other things happen. So I know group consciousness's can affect our everyday reality and they can affect our own everyday reality. And I know the need to believe is strong in humans.

Laura: I don't know if we necessarily need to believe so much.

Joe: Well, we need to know something, we need to know that there is something higher than ourselves, is what it comes down to. I'm not sure why we need to know that there's something higher than us, but we do, literally we need to know that there is more to the universe than just us and what's going on this planet. And it's a fundamental basic need for all humans, it doesn't matter what walk of life you come from, or where you are or what you're doing, it is something that we all need, it's just a need that we have to have and we have to fill. I'm not sure where it comes from, you know Laura, it's almost like there's a void we're trying to fill.

Laura: Well, I think what it is, partly, is that number one, we need to feel this connectedness to other human beings, we're doing something together, that's the first thing. And then, as I was mentioning earlier, I think that there is some part of us that extends into a higher reality, so, that part of us that is in that higher reality also connects with parts of the other people that are in the higher reality and it helps us to induct energy into ourselves from the creative side of the universe. There's something very mystical and mysterious and real and powerful, and I'm not suggesting that anybody should create voodoo dolls of George Bush or Dick Cheney and throw them on fires or anything. However, if you feel so inclined let me know the exact time you're going to be doing it. [laughter]

Joe: Oh Laura, don't be giving the crazies ideas now.

Laura: I'm just joking people.

Joe: You know how they are, they'll be writing you, sending you voodoo dolls.

Laura: There is something very powerful about connecting your minds together by looking in the same direction, having the same aim. And that's one of the reasons why I think that the world is the way it is, why they have created so much division among human beings. You've got racial strife, you've got men against women, you've got ethnic tension, you've got this country against that country, the New Agers against the Catholics, against the Protestants, against the Scientologists, against the Mormons. All of these different groups and everything are incepted and created, I think, by pathological people and designed to just put people at each other's throats. And human beings really need to get together right now because we have a problem on this planet and we really need to solve it.

Joe: Well, you know, it's one of the few times in our society that we have the ability, and we have the internet now, so, we can all link up.

Laura: We could do it.

Joe: There's no excuse not to get together anymore. Everybody's ideas, thoughts and designs can be put forward and expressed. Just look at the blogs all over the internet now, everybody's got a voice. So we need to come up to some kind of coherent understanding.

Laura: We need to come together. And the things is, when we come together, let's agree on some standards for what we're going to consider to be evidence of this or that, and also let's exclude the pathological people from our communion, because they're the ones that come in and start whispering and spreading rumours and lies and creating discord and taking down the tone of any kind of higher aspiration. We need to exclude them and get together with real human beings, who have real empathy, real compassion for one another, and agree that there are many different ways to the top of the same mountain. You can go up many different paths, but we're all going to the same mountain top.

Joe: It's true but, what happens I think, well, mainly it's ego that gets in the way.

Laura: Pathology.

Joe: I'll give you an example, about 5 years ago, 7 years ago a friend of mine came to me and said, "Joe, why can't we get the ufologists to agree to a set of guidelines for abduction research?" I said, "Well I'll tell you what," I said, "I'm fairly well connected and I know quite a few of them," oh god, this turned into, and still, we're 7 years later and still haven't done this. And this turned into a nightmare like you wouldn't believe, because, when we contacted Jacobson and Hopkins, they went off in two totally different tangents with it, which I was surprised, because usually they are kind of close together. Oh no, Whitley went off on his, and by the time it was all said and done we ended up having like 21 different, but no-one was even getting close.

Laura: Nobody was agreeing.

Joe: Nobody would agree. So I said, "I tell you all what, I'll even make it easier on you all, I'll give you all some guidelines," they didn't even want to do that. And what it came down to was ego. There was 5 or 6 egos that just would not bend to the other ones. They were the only possible, plausible explanations. And I'm like, no guys, it's like David, David's dome some good basic research in alien abductions, he has not gone to the next level, he's still where he was 15, 18 years ago, which is fine, I understand that. But he hasn't moved to the next level which a lot of the other researchers have, based on his research, by the way. But he's not willing to take that next step. Bud Hopkins health isn't as good as it used to be and I think he's been kind of getting out of this, and Whitley has a totally different view on this. So, you're not getting any real coherence.

The only place I've seen anything that we agree on, as I was talking about earlier, was myself, Darrel Sim, Joe Bunt-Smith, Mary Rodwell, Katarina Wilson, Leah Hayley, Marianne Delacardo, Jim Sparks and a few of the others that are doing this kind of basic research. We do agree on about 80% of the abduction stuff. But still, even with that, we can't come up with a coherent guideline, because there are just fundamental things we will not agree on. And I hate to say it but it's more about ego than anything else. Who is right and who is wrong, instead of just taking it and saying, ok, we need this, we need this, we need this, people's egos are getting hurt. Then I found that there's a lot of control issues, certain people want to be in control.

Laura: Well, all of the things that you are talking about, egos that continue to the point where damage is being done to other people or to the system itself, that's pathological. When you're talking about people who can't let go of their emotional attachments to things, that's pathology, it's a kind of sickness. All kinds of people with those pathologies are involved in any kind of study or research, because people with pathology naturally gravitate to positions of power.

Joe: Well, I tell people all the time, I have a big ego, you can't be in this field and not have an ego, it's impossible because you'll get squashed.

Laura: There's a healthy ego though.

Joe: But I tell them I will never let me ego get in the way of my research or my own personal life.

Laura: Exactly.

Joe: I'll be like, no.

Laura: You can't survive without an ego, and we're not talking about that kind, we're talking about an entrenched inability to see another person's point of view, or to see a basic central point of view where everyone can agree on.

Joe: And that's half of ufology, I hate to say it, but it's half of ufology.

Laura: That's why I don't have anything to do with it.

Joe: But you know, and I've said this before, there is a new breed of ufologist in the works, it's people like myself, Richard Dolan, Karen Dolan, a few of the others that we're doing research with, they're the new breed of ufologist, they're not the old breed where, and I'm not going to mention any names because I have to work with them, but a lot of them are set in their ways, their answers are the only right answers and they won't change their views on anything.

Laura: And meanwhile the world burns.

Joe: Yeah, and some of them have been preaching the same thing for 20 or 30 years. And, I understand that, but when you've got groups like ours and other people with more data and more research and more understanding, you should incorporate that into your research. But no, because then it changes what they know is right or what they believe is right, it changes it of course and that creates problems for them.

Laura: Well the problem is that they're not working with a genuine theory of knowledge. A genuine theory of knowledge would postulate that even the point of view of the person doing the research or your theory itself must submit itself to examination and analysis.

Joe: Yeah, it has to. I tell people all the time, that's why I do a lot of public speaking and I do a lot of the radio stuff. It's one reason I formed the radio network is so that, our organisation and our fellow friends in ufology had a venue to speak. Because we want to know what other people think. Every now and then I'll find out, I'll do a lecture on the greys or the reptilians or the humans or something like that, matter of fact there's a 10 hour series I've just done on audio on these 3 alien races and military abductions.

Laura: Wow, I'd like to hear that.

Joe: Oh it's good and it's a lot of fun, and people go listen to it and they're like, they'll either write to you and say you're right on the money or they'll criticise. I actually handle criticism real well, I don't get mad when people criticise. If it's something I firmly believe, then I'm not going to change my mind, but if you can present an argument and data I will, and I have in the past.

Laura: Give me a specific argument, give me some data.

Joe: I tell them, don't call and say, well Joe you're wrong, or Joe you're a moron or Joe you're this, you're that, well then I'm just going to ignore you. But, if you write to me or you call me on the phone, because I'm quite easily accessible, and you say, you know Joe, I listen to you say this but I've seen this, this and this, and for this reason and for that reason, I may change my mind, and I have. When I first got involved with this the aliens were all one way and now I know that they have different ideas, different thoughts, different layers and different groups. Like, people that talk about the greys, reptilians and humans all working and coexisting together, well, the little 3 foot greys mess with everybody, but people don't realise that there are 7 foot greys and there's white and brown that are also in the same family, and they're much more advanced than either the humans or the reptilians, they're more like the peace keepers, and the greys actually work for them. The little greys actually work for them. But they also have dealings in working with both the reptilians and the humans as well. And I think that's why people get confused sometimes, most people are not aware that the greys have 4 or 5 different sizes and 3 or 4 different colours and about 11 different varieties. And the average researcher is just not going to know that because they really either haven't experienced it themselves or have not seen the data to back it up.

So that changes a lot of stuff for a lot of the researchers when they find this out or they interview a lot of the contactees that we have, so it changes a lot. And it puts different spins on different things, so it gets confusing. And I was always under the impression first off that the very short greys originally, I thought they were from the future coming back, then I realised, no that's not what it was. Then a lot of them said they were automatons or androids or what have you. Well, we did find that there is one version of them that seems to be part alien, part robot. And then there's another 3 foot grey that is just a grey. So you have both of those, and they seem to have ties with all what's going on, on this planet. And then you have the tall ones that are either related to them or they deal with. And this is all information that it's hard to get, there's not a lot of people talking about it.

Laura: Well then you're going to enjoy reading this book because this Cassiopaean transmission talked about all these different varieties and types and so forth, long before there was any information available such as you're describing.

Joe: Yeah. And see that's the thing, and I'm sure that you're going to catch some criticism because you're talking about more than one alien, because some of these contactees they get really mad when you talk about more than the little 3 foot grey, and I'm thinking, well baby you're in the wrong realm, that's just one little alien that works for somebody. I'm like, I think you're missing the whole thing if that's all you think that's going on here.

Laura: Yeah. It's a zoo out there.

Joe: It is, it literally is. You know, like I tell people, I tell them we only deal with 5 basic types because we try to keep as much data orientated as we can. But I express this all the time, there are probably more than that visiting the planet, there's also what I like to call the dimensional bleedthrough and things like this, where dimensions are fading across and there's contact in these realms. I'll give you an example, and boy talk about making the paranormal people insane with this.

A couple of years ago I introduced some new theories about ghosts, well actually about a decade ago. I said, I thought ghosts were dimensional bleedthrough, I did not think they were dead people. And of course this just went insane, and I'm like guys, think about it, I said, have you ever had a dead person talk to you or have you ever had a family visitation after a death, and a lot of people of course have. I said, have you ever noticed that there's always something slightly off to you or something slightly wrong with the visitation. Like you know the individual, and these are usually visual not audio, or audio and visual, but they're usually visually involved. You'll notice that sometimes the person is slightly different or they maybe say something that slightly doesn't fit. I said, dimension bleedthrough will allow your father in another dimension to talk to you directly. I said, the problem is, in that dimension they're still alive, they're not deceased.

Laura: That's a good idea, I like that.

Joe: And of course we are going take it as if they're dead because of course we've lost a parent or loved one. And what got me on this was right after my father died, when I was 16, I had a visitation, but he was talking to me and it was my dad but he was saying things that were not quite in frame with the life that I had had with him. And I thought maybe it was some kind of disinformation or some kind of nest between the two realms and then I realised, that's not what it was.

Laura: It was a different branch of reality.

Joe: Yeah, once I realised that there was multiple dimensions, I realised, well, if there's multiple dimensions, a lot of what we consider ghosts are just bleedthrough from other dimensions.

Laura: Well you know, there's another really good theory, and I don't remember if it's in High Strangeness or something else I've written, but it's one that was put forward by Tom Leftbridge. He was a really interesting guy, he's dead now. But he noticed that there were a lot of hauntings in England that occurred in places where there was underground water. And what he noticed about these situations was that they were like recordings and they would only play when the atmosphere was just damp. For example, they would see a Roman soldier marching along, only the Roman soldier, you'd see him only from his knees up because the original Roman road that he was marching on was a couple of feet down in the ground, it had buried by the build-up of rubble and so forth, however long it's been. And they didn't seem to interact in any way with the current reality, they didn't notice anything or anybody, they would just be marching along, and it would play over and over again. Then there were other situations where a ghost would appear at a particular time, under particular circumstances like if the moon is full and there's a ring around the moon or whatever, you'll see the white lady or whatever or the headless horseman and that these kinds of things he thought reflected the fact that under particular atmospheric conditions, there were fields, like magnetic tape in the stone and in the water, in the fields.

Joe: Yeah, we talked about that where some things...

Laura: And it would just run like a tape.

Joe: We've actually discussed it and we do think that's, see that's the two theories we've used, the dimensional bleedthrough and the one you're talking about, because we really do think those two theories explain almost 99.9% of the ghost encounters. Not 100%

Laura: I have to agree, yeah.

Joe: There are places like, there was a cave with some guys and they just did an investigation and they came to find that the rocks were very magnetic in the cave. And he said, when he seen this, it was like a replay. He said you would see it, it did not interact with him, it did not see him, it did not bother him, and a couple of hours later it would start over again, and it was the same thing. And I do agree with that, I think it's a very plausible explanation. And like I said, what we're talking about, those two theories explain a lot, but ghost hunters don't want to hear that, because it puts them out of business.

Laura: Oh no, they want dead dudes, they want to catch one.

Joe: I tell them all the time, if you're not looking at these two theories then you're not a real researcher, you're somebody who wants to sensationalise this and make some money off of it. Because any real researcher is going to look at both these theories and say, well damn, they cover a lot of what we consider to be ghosts. And like I said its 99.9%, but there still is that .1% out there that is not explained by either theory and those still need legitimate investigation. But, unfortunately, I got to say that the majority of ghost hunters that I meet are lacking at best.

Laura: Oh, they're pathetic.

Joe: There's a couple of them out there that do decent work, but in general most of them are just fame hogs.

Laura: Yeah, the so-called paranormal experts.

Joe: Yeah, looking for a pay cheque or, a lot of them are, I hate to say this, but it's about stroking their egos. They want to be patted on the head, they want fame and fortune or just fame, a lot of people are happy with just fame.

Laura: And some of them start out with some good ideas and honest intentions and somewhere along the way they get, you know...

Joe: They get lost. See, that's another thing I'm real lucky with, I can't really get a big swelled head because I've got a big support group around me and they will pop the bubble.

Laura: Oh me too, absolutely.

Joe: They're like, Joe, have you lost your mind, what are you talking about Joe, are you getting off on a rampage, just shut up and sit down and pay attention to what you're saying.

Laura: Yeah, I've got a really big family.

Joe: Yeah, that's what we've got, we have a big family and a big group that we work with and most of them have known me for years and they're not afraid to say Joe... Well it's like when I introduced a new theory on Betty and Barney Hill, most of them might had a heart attack, because I said Betty and Barney Hill were milabs, they were military abducted in the United States, they were actually physically abducted in Canada by aliens and re-abducted in the United States and that's based on the tapes because everything that Betty and Barney talk about, are talking about terrestrial based technology. Nail samples, hair samples, skin samples, urine samples, needles, they described the room as like an operating room with operating materials. This is terrestrial, this is typical 1940's, 1950's, 1960's contamination research, like if you had been exposed to something and they were trying to find out what it was, it's typical. And, of course, because I changed this, people were coming unglued all over the place, but, most ufologists accepted now as the correct explanation for what happened, and I just don't understand why I was the one who had to correct it, I still don't understand that today.

Laura: Well, I'm glad that somebody's doing what you're doing, because it certainly needed to be done, and it wasn't being done when I was reading cases and frantically trying to get answers to questions.

Joe: Yeah, because we didn't start coming public, probably, we formed the organisation in 99, but really and truly we didn't start getting real public until 2003, 2004, so it was a little bit later than and after what you all were doing, and even then there was a lot of resistance to what we were doing.

Laura: Well sure.

Joe: And then all of a sudden we became the largest UFO abduction organisation on the planet and of course that made trouble. I was talking with Alejandro Rohan last night, as a matter of fact, on the support group, in the virtual auditorium, we have a virtual auditorium where we broadcast from, last night, in there I was in there, Karen Dolan was in there, Alejandro Rohan from MUFON was in there, Grant Cameron was in there and a couple of other researchers. Well anyway, we were just chit chatting about a lot of the stuff we're talking about now and anybody who happened to have been lucky and be in there got a very special treat because you don't see that many ufologists in the same place talking about the same stuff and agreeing on it. But, you know, it was hard for us when we first started and it was hard when we had to fight with MUFON, no you're not the largest organisation and you don't have the best researchers, and we're 5 times your size.

Laura: Oh, MUFON is a black hole, they collect cases and they disappear.

Joe: Alejandro asked me last night why I formed I.C.A.R., well I told him, I said, well it's a black hole of Calcutta, I would send in 3 months' worth of data and 2 years later I'm still waiting for a reply, enough was enough, I said I couldn't do that anymore. I said, my directives will submit something to me and if they don't hear from me back in a week I get a phone call, hey Joe, did you read that case I sent you, what do you think about it and we'll discuss it right then and there. And that's the way it should be handled. But, you know, you got to do what you got to do.

What else, I was going to ask you something else, but my whole brain just went... Oh! Now, being in France and in Europe and all, have you noticed over there that the book is being received better than in the United States, I'm curious?

Laura: Oh yeah, my books sell really well in Europe.

Joe: Yeah, was I kind of wondering about that, because when I talk to a lot of my European friends that are ufologists, like Nick Pope and a few of the others, they tell me that it's easier to deal with this subject over there than it is over here. Of course, that bothers me because I consider the Brits to be more uptight than the Americans, but yet they still accept this subject.

Laura: Yeah, well I've got it out in French and Spanish and it's being translated into German. And the French and Spanish versions are doing really well.

Joe: Well it sounds like it's going to do ok, and I don't think, like I said, I'm glad I'm having you on today, because this little interview today, and I'll get Len to get you on in the future again, but this interview today is going to dispel a lot of the BS flying around the internet and through ufology now.

Laura: Well I don't know if it will dispel anything, people will believe what they want to believe.

Joe: Well I'm hard to get away from and my network...

Laura: Richard came over and checked me out himself. That's why he wrote what he wrote, and he wrote it because he knows, we talked, we spent a lot of time talking and interacting together.

Joe: Well, now he can say, you know what, because everyone considers me very sceptical to start off with and sometimes even rude. He can say, well Joe Montaldo interviewed her, it's posted to the internet, why don't you go listen for yourself and formulate your own opinion. And that will help, it's not going to get to everybody by any means Laura, but it will help a lot of the dissention that's being going now, because in the interview you sound really bright, you're doing a really good job of articulating yourself, you don't sound like some of the, like Billy Meyers and Nancy Leader and them, which is what I think people were expecting you to sound like. So right off the bat that's going to make Richards life that much easier and he'll get that much less BS over it. Still I don't know why they're picking on in but anyway, if they got a problem they should write to you.

Laura: Yeah, well I think it's a concerted effort.

Joe: Well, I really think there's a group of people out there right now that just want to pick on Richard.

Laura: Yeah, well the thing is, what he's doing is a really fantastic piece of work of exposing just how much is really going on and if they can use me and my so-called weird ideas to smear him, that's something they're going to try to do. And people shouldn't really let them do that to Richard. If I could take it back and say, Richard you shouldn't have written this nice review for my book, we shouldn't have published it in the book, whatever, but, how are we going to know that just by telling the simple honest truth as we see it, would be used to try to hurt us.

Joe: But that's typical, that is just typical in today's ufology community.

Laura: So I'm hoping all the people of good will who care about Richard, just if you care about Richard, you don't have to care about me, you know.

Joe: I have to be honest with you, I think that this was brought about by some of the old timers. I think there's some jealousy issues going on here. With the exception of maybe two other speakers, Richard is probably one of the more prominent speakers in the field right now, and I'm thinking that some of the layman and some of the older ones are a little jealous of him and it's causing him a little problem.

Laura: Well he came in here and brought some method, he brought scientific method to the whole issue and he's dealing with data, with facts, not belief, not leaping off into, "Oh, there's aliens on Mars." That's a hypothesis.

Joe: It is, it's a good point too because that's exactly what it is, it's just a hypothesis, there's no real proof to it or anything.

Laura: There's all kinds of things that are possible, there's some things that are plausible, there are a few things that are hypothetical, but we still need to deal with data, hard data and that's what Richard does and he does it better than anybody else does it. And just because a lot of his data backs up some of the material or even a lot of the material in my so-called channelling experiment, doesn't mean that my experiment should reflect on his data collection, his data is pure, it's clean.

Joe: I'm going to put a think tank together for us so we can do away with the channelling word, we're going to find some other word. Because really and truly it's the word, it's not what you were doing, because when we talked about use of tools that's quite acceptable in both ufology and paranormal, it's just the word people. And it's because of a select few people out there, it has nothing to do with the overall groups that are out there, there's 3 or 4 people who use the word channelling that of course makes everybody else... See, you're not doing what the other channellers, like what Nancy and them do, it's not the same thing. So really we do need to come up with a new term for it and I think that would eliminate some of the BS, but still people need to learn to look beyond certain things.

Laura: How about prosthetic communication.

Joe: That might work, we got to come up with something because, oh man, it's insanity out there these days and you got to wonder about half these people, and why, and I still, like I said, I did not see why that had this personal attack against him. And I do think somebody, I do think a couple of people in ufology are behind it, I really do. I don't think this has anything to do with you per se, I really think that there's some people that just want to tarnish his name.

Laura: Do you think it's people in ufology or do you think it may be officials in high places who...

Joe: I think it's both, because I learned a long time ago some key people in ufology, especially in MUFON and some other parts of ufology were directly linked to government, and I think they're plants, some of them are plants knowingly and some of them are plants not knowingly.

Laura: Unknowingly. Well it's the same, the whole metaphysical field is full of that, the paranormal field, the alternative news, it's just amazing, it's signal to noise and that's something that John McDonald talked about, was the signal to noise ratio. And there's so much noise that it really takes a lot of patience and time and care and getting your hands dirty in the data itself to be able to pick out the signal from the noise.

Joe: Yeah, they just don't want us to know, they don't. They want to keep as much of it to themselves as they can and mostly because of power and stuff like that. I'm sure there's some financial involved, especially with some of this, but I think this is more about let's just keep as much of this a secret as we can and keep as much control as we can, because if too much of it gets out they'd lose control. And they definitely don't want people like us out there talking about it because then it's going to change people's opinions and minds.

I'll give you an example, a friend of mine, he's in politics, he said, "You know Joe, you are all a threat to politicians because you all give alternative ideas and designs and alternative life styles other than what the government wants us to do." I said, "Well, last I checked we live in a free country, we can do whatever the hell we want." I said, "I know they're trying to take those rights away, but as of now it's still a free country and we should be able to live and do what we want." I said, "You just sound like every other politician, that just want to keep control and make us do what you want us to do, that's not what we're here for."

Laura: Yeah, well, exactly. And there's one thing that I would like to get in here, just a little word for a friend of mine who promotes this idea, that there are 4 things that can really help all of us, right now, starting right now, and that's to eat fresh food, whole food, don't eat anything packaged and prepared. Turn off your television, bank locally in a credit union, and get out of debt.

Joe: Yeah, well, I'm not in debt, I have my own garden in my backyard and I probably can honestly say that if I watch an hour of TV a year I'm doing good.

Laura: We can take back our world if we want to.

Joe: Yeah, well, I use the internet a lot, but that's because I've got a lot of research going on, so I use it for that.

Laura: The internet's not TV.

Joe: I'm not a big TV fan, I do like to grow my own fruits and vegetables because they taste better and of course it's better for you all the way around, and even a lot of times when I'm buying beef and stuff like that, I'll buy it wholesale right out of the slaughter house, and it's just, it's better for you, it's healthier for you, it's better for you all the way around. And we tell people that all the time, but people want to live their own life. But I know we're getting ready to run out of time, so any plugs, plug the book, websites, friends, any of that?

Laura: Well I just want to tell all the critics, just read the book please, and then if you have a question, write to me and ask me, I'll try to answer your question. I've been writing almost day and night for years now answering people's questions, I try to answer every question. If you don't want to believe that I'm sincere, you can ask other people about me, people who know me, don't listen to somebody who doesn't know me.

Joe: That's what I'm saying. Websites where they can find you, any particular one you use?

Laura: Yeah, if you want to come to our news website it's, or if you want to come to my Cassiopaea website you can come to and we have a forum. If you want to talk to me, you come and join my forum and you talk to me because I will talk to you right there in public, I will answer your questions, just come and talk to me right there. I'm there, I read the forum every day.

Joe: Yeah, we do the same thing, that's why we have these groups so we can do that. Where can they find the book, everywhere, anywhere in particular?

Laura: You can get the book on Amazon, you can also go to Red Pill Press, and that's, and you can also get it from QFG Publishing, and that's I believe, net, org or com, probably com.

Joe: I know it was pretty searchable when I typed in your name.

Laura: Yeah, you can find it any number of places just by typing in 'high strangeness' and 'Jadczyk'.

Joe: Oh, I've seen something, your husband's name, I thought I saw his name, did he write something, I think something, part 1 and 2, but I didn't get a chance to read it?

Laura: He wrote what used to be a preface or an introduction but it's now been moved to an afterword. He has some philosophical and, what would you call it, scientific comments to make on the channelling process itself. Our channelling process, not, you know, whe're not talking about somebody going into a trance and thinking lord Sananda or Jesus Christ is talking to them.

Joe: Yeah, lord banana brain. I've heard some stories, and then sometimes somebody will come to me, and I'm thinking, don't laugh, don't laugh Joe, come on there, try to be serious, don't laugh. And then they'll say something and I'll just lose it, and of course they get mad at me, and I'm like, well guys I'm sorry, it sounds dumb, I got to laugh! It's not the best way to do research but sometimes...

Laura: It's probably one of the few books in the world that includes a lot of scientific speculation and some inspirational material, shall we call it, prosthetically received, and a blur from a real historian who is a data orientated researcher, and a mathematician/physicist who is a specialist in hyper-dimensional physics. You can't get many books with that kind of combination.

Joe: Nah, you can't. And really, you can't, that's the thing.

Laura: So read it and share it with your friends and if you get scared by anything it says, come and talk to me. It's not the end of the world just because we've got weird critters flying around out there, doing strange things, kidnapping and raping people. We're not completely... Come on, would they be going to so much trouble to conceal their activities if they weren't afraid of something that we have, if we can figure it out. Like getting together and getting over our differences.

Joe: Well that's, and this has been brought to my attention by contactees and even some of the alien research we've done, if we could get ourselves together and actually concentrate, we could probably slow down and stop a lot of stuff, but, I don't know, we still got that ego problem that gets in the way.

Laura: Forget the ego problem, people got to get over their egos.

Joe: They do, they need to learn that they can listen and interact and not have to be in control in every minute.

Laura I want to tell you thank you for being on, I enjoyed the interview today. For everyone listening tonight, or will be listening to this in the near future, this archive will stay up, it will go up Wednesday, it'll be played at its regular time on Wednesday and the archive will stay up for another week after that, so, if you want to find Laura's book you should be able to click it right there, I'm pretty sure it's posted to the site and it'll take you right to where you need to go and the books up there and her website's up there, so that'll make it easy to find without any real problems, a hyperlink right over there and one of the great things about the internet and it takes you wherever you, click, whoop, and your there in two seconds, I love the internet. Again Laura I want to thank you for being on, Laura Knight-Jadczyk.

Laura: Thank you so much.

Joe: And I want to thank you for being on and anybody who's had any problems with this or with Richard, you can write to both of them and I'm sure they'll clarify this without any real problems at all. Until next week, have some fun, smile, enjoy your lives and I'll see you all Wednesday.