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Broadcasting from deep in the heart of the American Empire, join your host Elan Martin, and fellow editors, as they discuss everything from current events and the latest machinations and manipulations of the global elite to history, science, and religion, and how it all fits together.

We can hardly read, watch or hear the news without learning about some new grotesque violence inflicted among family members, a new mass shooting, a lethal bout of abuse perpetrated by police, or Western proxy forces acting like scourges upon whole nations. How much of what we're seeing is a manufactured and 'synthetic terror,' and how much of what we're seeing is the result of other factors that are largely unknown or unacknowledged. Whatever the case, the results are all around us staring us in the face, and looming larger everyday. We ignore the rising tide of irrationality and violence, which has become the 'new normal,' at our own peril.

The Truth Perspective is brought to you by the SOTT Radio Network and, your one-stop source for independent, unbiased, alternative news and commentary on world events.

Live every Saturday from 2-4pm EST / 11am-1pm PST / 8-10pm CET.

Running Time: 02:04:00

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Here's the transcript of the show:

Shane: Today is October 17th 2015 and this is The Truth Perspective. I'm your host Shane LaChance and I'm joined by my co-host Elan Martin.

Elan: Hi everybody!

Shane: And editors Karen Nicholson

Karen: Howdy.

Shane: And William Barbe.

William: Hello everyone.

Shane: And Meg McDonald.

Meg: Hello.

Shane: Today we're talking about the West's social decline. Our show is titled: Western Violence and Disintegration: The New Normal. Close to seventy years ago Gandhi was asked what he thought about western civilisation, he said he thought it would be a good idea. Those who have grown up in western countries have been taught about all the progress and the advance nature of our world. But hidden behind those beliefs of superiority has been a growing social decay. At its root lies a pathological system that spreads chaos both intentionally and as a natural consequence of a society led by inhuman leaders. These so-called leaders seek to gain control and dominance out of their chaos. They know no limits in their depravity. They have no capacity to reflect on the ultimate sustainability of their methods and they are blinded by their wishful thinking. Under the western way our society is now facing collapse, not only economically but in all manner of dysfunctional bonds that have moulded us over the years, particularly since 9/11.

The veil of exceptionalism is thinning. As we witness the ever more glaring pain and abuse of societies child. We live in a time when horrific human tragedies are an everyday occurrence. We're being pushed to the edge and the question remains if humanity will choose to see the world we've created at the behest of psychopaths.

So everybody, that's kind of a depressing topic but as Elan said earlier, this is the business we're in, and reality it isn't necessarily the most encouraging or -

Elan: We were discussing the show topic a little earlier today, especially as it pertains to the manifestation of violence as a symptom of our times. Violence on the global level including western proxy-forces scourging nations; police departments and individual police running rampant, killing people with the least provocation; grotesque murders even among family members; mass shootings; some of these are connected in obvious ways others in less obvious ways. It seems like things are coming to the fore, things are coming to a head and it's really time to open our eyes to a situation that is becoming increasingly untenable and to the dangers that we're faced with.

Shane: I just want to ask the chatters if they can hear me ok, if my mic is sounding all right? Great thanks guys. It seems since the United States involvement in Ukraine that things have been really amped up quite a bit. It seems since 2014 there's been a pretty dramatic change, at least in the sense of the over nature of pathology coming to the fore. Obviously before 9/11 it was a lot harder for people to see through the deceptions of all the things that we're told. We really believe - especially in America or the United States - that we're number 1, or all these things that are pounded into us.

William: Exceptionalism.

Shane: Yeah exceptionalism. We are so exceptional. It seems things are getting more intense and crazy and it's not as easy to hide that. There could be a lot of different influences involved in that, part of it is just human nature, we're not meant to be ruled by a bunch of psychopaths. It's an abnormal thing.

Elan: Like you were saying Shane, 2014 being the year that things got ramped up even further; we heard a lot more about ISIS in Iraq and Syria; we have this civil war in eastern Ukraine but also just in the US the sheer number of stories that we're hearing regarding mass shootings have been ramped up. The sheer number of stories that we're getting on - there was this recent story about two brothers in up-state New York who were brought to a church by their parents and were forced to reveal or share their sins. And after the regular church services a bunch of the parishioners got together with the parents and for several hours began beating them physically. One of them was rushed to a hospital where he died because of the injuries inflicted by his parents and the parishioners, and the other I think was in critical condition. They were literally trying to beat 'the god into them'.

I don't recall - of course I've never paid as much attention to the news as I have these past few years but I don't recall hearing stories like this 20 or 30 years ago or in the seventies when I was growing up. But editors are in the position of reading the news every day. If you're not reading the news everyday then it's very easy to not be aware of the sheer number and volume and horrificness of the number stories coming out on the subject.

Shane: Well that story that you brought up Elan. You might read something like that coming from a superstitious tribe in overseas. But we're seeing things like this more and more in the United States and in the UK. In the UK there's been an increase in mothers who are basically mutilating their daughters because they don't want others to see that they have breasts, because they're afraid that this message is being sent that they're adult women, and this is in the UK. It's really scary to see the social declines and it's happening across the board and it's really obvious in the west. I think we want to talk a little bit about the shootings too, more recently. So we saw Russia get involved in Syria in a more obvious way and that really changed the dynamic of the world stage and I think the US didn't really know how to respond. Not a clue. There was a complete media silence for at least three days; no one was reporting on the issue whatsoever. And what did we see in the media? It was all the things about the Oregon shooting that took centre stage the day after Putin went into Syria and began the missile strikes.

And all of a sudden, the United States are just driven into this issue. Which can have all other issues surrounding it; gun control; what kind of mental stability is involved in the shooters, what about our mental health programs; all these issues that are basically designed to draw attention away from what's really going on. We see this time and time again with many of the shootings so it's a natural question to ask what's going on there. Is it just a coincidence that this stuff is going on? We've talked about many different types of false flags before, manufactured terror, I think the case could be made that many of these shootings are parallel or similar to suicide bombings. Is it just a lone nutter, gone crazy who decides to shoot some people up, probably not; there may be some things here and there with people going off who are genuinely crazy and nuts, but that's also just a natural consequence of living in a pathological reality.

William: And you know just going back to what Elan was saying about people not constantly paying attention to the news. Like the colour revolutions when they started, they were basically from food prices or food scarcity. And we can see that here when people need to have a living wage, in all the states, of over $15 an hour. A living wage is considered having enough money for housing, childcare, utilities, I mean these are pretty basic stuff and with people only making half of that, they're just not able to support themselves and are constantly struggling with that lack of support. So that anger and frustration has to go out somewhere. I just wanted to point that out. That's going to make things more difficult.

Shane: We have a caller on the line. Hello caller, are you there?
Caller: I'm just listening.

Shane: Ok, we just a have listener. Al right, thanks for listening.

Elan: Well, I would like to talk about the whole food scarcity and the economic issue in a little bit, because that's certainly going to play a big part in the future with people reacting to certain things and lashing out. But I'd like to get back to what you were saying Shane, about the multiple purposes that these shootings in particular seem to serve in the US, in the form of distraction. You have all kinds of really astute writers right now, Melissa Dykes, Jon Rappoport, and others, who are definitely seeing patterns. There are certain things that are happening like you pointed out. Putin, basically, in his UN speech, shows up what the US has been doing for the past 14 or 15 years in its 'war on terror' - there was so much silence you could hear a pin-drop. But the silence got replaced by bullets, in the form of the Oregon shooting. And for those of us familiar with the idea of false flags and distractions of this type, we look at any one or most of these stories and you start to see little pieces of the puzzle that don't fit.

In the case of the Oregon shooting and I think this was mentioned in the last show, you had one of the students reporting two or three shooters which are inconsistent with what the media was reporting. In the case of the kid from South Carolina that shot up the church last June, everything about the kids personality from being friends with blacks - he was white - suggest that he wasn't a racist or trying to start a race war. So there's this idea - well, actually it's much more than idea, we know it exists, there is mind control that is being employed in the US to set off these shooters and create distractions and obviously instil a lot of fear; a lot of these shootings happen in schools, I think there were four in these past three weeks. Schools - we think of our children, we think that if they're not safe in schools where are they going to be safe? They're our most vulnerable and precious resource. So obviously it's also this emotionally manipulative thing. We do have some information here on 'Greenbauming' which is a type of brainwashing that is pretty well documented and known of. Meg you were going to discuss a little bit of that I think?

Meg: Yes. Greenbaum came to be known - I guess everybody's read about it - by a Doctor D. Corydon Hammond. He gave a lecture in 1992 and called it Hypnosis and Multiple Personality Disorder and Ritual Abuse. The basics of it are: that there are these Nazi doctors brought to the United States by intelligence agencies after World War II. And they started mind control research in a military hospital here in the United States. They take a child or an adult, it doesn't have to be a child, and they make them dissociative via trauma; repeated trauma, over and over; horrific physical abuse, sexual abuse, electro shock them, sensory deprivation, that sort of thing. And they essentially create different personalities. Like they have an Alpha personality, a Beta, Delta, Gamma, Theta, Omega, even Omicron.

And each one of these personalities has a different role. The most interesting one, I thought, was one he didn't talk about much - Dr. Hammond didn't and it's the drug-smuggling, Mafia-type, business and government leaders. So, some of these Greenbaum victims have a personality in them that could be one of our government leaders acting out that role. They also have what they call 'booby-traps' which they call Greenbaums. If they begin to recover, like I said if their programming starts to go haywire they kind of go-off; it's like a suicide program that's built into them. Which is I think is what we're seeing when we people snap and start shooting up schools. There are layers and layers of programs in these people. They could be terrorist groups; they could be suicide bombers; they could be patsy's or like these lone lunatics we see shooting up schools; they could be spies; they could be reporters in the media; they could be civil or human rights people; they can be just about anyone. And the common thread is that they have these alternate layers to their personality which don't know each other and each plays a certain role.

The biggest question I came across would be: Why. Why would the government do this and to me it was just that they would have more control, through fear, they'd have more money for defence budgets and they have the power to scare you into wanting more police state measures and tactics, that sort of thing.

Shane: We have a caller on the line. We'll see if it's just someone listening in. Hello caller, are you there?

Caller: I'm just listening.

Shane: Ok, we have another listener. Al right, thanks for listening.

Elan: Just getting back to what you said Meg, there is the political president for mind-controlling individuals to achieve certain political ends.

Meg: Sirhan Sirhan, yeah.

Elan: Yes. He was the individual who was blamed for the murder of Robert Kennedy on his campaign trail, I think it was either in 67 or 69 or thereabouts [shot in 1963, convicted in 1969]. In any case there is such a plethora of information about this individual. He was interview after he was taken in to custody by an individual and he was in such a dissociative state not knowing where he was or what he was doing that the gentlemen who was interviewing him had some understanding of hypnotherapy and basically said that he was extremely suggestible and really wasn't in his right mind. So, aside from all the other facts around the murder of Robert Kennedy and the fact that the ballistics show that Kennedy was shot from the opposite direction that Sirhan Sirhan was accused of shooting him from. You put these pieces together and you know that there is a whole, very powerful, very dark infrastructure in the US that will go to great lengths to use people. To create these, 'lone-nutter' narratives in order to convince the public that there is one sole guy who decided for this or that reason that he had to kill somebody or kill a group of people.

Through certain suggestions they are made to say certain things. In the case of the South Carolina killer, this young guy, he intended to start a race-war. So these ideas are put into the public's mind and its all part of a larger narrative that's being foisted upon people.

Shane: When you look at the targets of these shooters, they were all people who were trying to do some good; people you could look up to, that you could admire, it doesn't make sense why these people are targeted. Even if it's not a leader of the community or society, then it's children. Just look at that and think about it. I think it might be easier to have this image in our head of this crazy, lone person doing this rather than our own government; or elements within the government. But when you look at the actions of what these so-called leaders are doing, going into other countries and just committing genocide, things can start to click when you do understand this pathological nature. You really dig into it and you really see it. But it's just easier to go with that narrative of its just one crazy guy who lost his marbles and just decided to off innocent people.

Elan: Well if you step back a little bit, there's this weird dynamic going on. Because every time one of these shootings occurs, Obama or somebody gets in front of the press corp. and says, "We have to instil greater gun-control laws." But the only thing that seems to happen as a result is that people run out and buy more guns. There was recently a story about the state of Maine actually making concealed carry easier; in fact you don't need a license to carry a weapon now in a concealed fashion. So it's almost as though people are being egged on. You know whenever Obama does make one of those speeches, which has been pretty frequently lately, you have a whole bunch of very reactive people in the US who cite the constitution and say, "Don't take away our guns!" basically, and feel even more threatened as a result. And I think part of the manipulation here is in inducing that response, that feeling of being threatened and vulnerable. You have to ask yourself: To what end?

It's almost as though there's this kind of witches-brew of reactivity being cooked up.

Karen: It's getting to people on a primitive level. It's not to think it through to get some sophisticated result or how you think about it; this gets right down to whether you live or die. And when you can bring a country down to that level then you have probably the most up-side to shape it the way you want to because they are fixated on this issue.

Meg: It creates social hysteria; "They're taking our guns away". It all leads to a hysterical society, hysterical about school shootings; hysterical about taking our guns away. The way they operate...

Karen: But you have to figure that this is a manipulation on a really grand scale. We're not a society that has taken well to being caged or having limitations put on us and this is an amendment right and we just can't accept that.

Shane: We may have a caller.

Elan: Third time's a charm.

Shane: Hello caller?

Jonathan: Yes, this is Jonathan.

All: Hi Jonathan!

Jonathan: Yeah, I was just listening to the discussion about the gun thing, and this is tangential to the point I want to make in my call, but I think people rightly see - the people that are gun advocates and they really focus on the gun issue - I think these people rightly see the thorough corruption of government. And these are people who when they go to the voting booth, they probably vote for right-wing republicans that voice and reflect their concerns. I'm not a gun owner but they rightly see that the government is thoroughly corrupt. And even if in their mind they don't really articulate an intellectual synopsis of it, they correctly see that this current model, this system, is going to collapse. The financial institutions are built on very unstable foundations that are going to collapse probably in the near future. They see government as thoroughly corrupt.

But getting back to this situation with these shooters; I'm very, very, very sceptical of a popular line among people that have programs and so forth, the theory forwarded by Ole Dammegard; I'm very sceptical of it. Because if we read into these situations and find conspiracy when there's absolutely none there, that's a perfect way to alienate people in general. So I think that there's definitely a possibility that people are manipulated by sinister forces to engage these things and so forth. But there's a huge danger of reading in too much into these scenarios and connecting that that is the case, government conspiracy, where there actually is none. And that's a perfect way to your views on other issues that you'd like people to pay attention to.

Shane: Well, I think that along those lines that that definitely does happen. Where basically, these theories come up, with a lot of these shootings these past few years, where there's a lot of hoaxing conspiracy theories; where it's all just actors, no one is actually shot, one person might look similar to another person or footage was used from a previous shooting so that proves that it's a hoax. And I think the hoaxing issue is very much along with the ideas you are putting out there where it does discredit. It really doesn't make a lot of sense when you boil down a lot of the basic ideas. I do think that there is a history as well as a lot of documents and evidence that does support the more covert mind-control type of things. I know it is a bit of a sticky-topic to discuss but I think it is worth exploring. Just what is the nature of our leaders; what are they capable of? And is there any truth to it?

Meg: Dr. Colin Ross is a good force for that, he's documented this stuff, it's not like it's a secret. (SOTT Talk Radio - Dr Colin Ross Interview: CIA Doctors and the Psychiatry Scam

Jonathan: I'm not discounting that. But I also believe that when it comes to the popular discourse of real conspiracies. For one thing, it's a form of mind-control to have a huge sector of our population, perhaps a majority, buy into this idea about conspiracy theory as being something illegitimate. That's a coup d'état right there on the part of US intelligence. To sow this context of the use of the term conspiracy theory to imply 'nutter', that's a freaking' coup d'état right there right? And that's been accomplished. But I also see that they would promote ideas of hoaxes and sinister alliances to pump up paranoia and discord and distrust. I think that's a huge component of US intelligence right now for controlling the population and herding the population; to have us mistrust one another. Divide ourselves - like he's a right-wing gun-nut, he sucks because he doesn't vote for Obama. So I think that's a huge goal. And actually they're very assiduous because they do promote conspiracies to keep us confused.

And I believe that's a huge reality we're facing right now as people that would like to alter the status-quo. So we can come together and solve problems and have a better world to live in. A huge reality is just to develop the mode of communication. And also to have some quality control as to the veracity of the information that we discuss and present on a daily basis. I've had huge problems just finding basic information having to do with Syria and Ukraine, the United States as an empire. I'm having a huge problem finding just basic information from people who's thoughts are cogent and broad ranging; Eric Draitser, he's fantastic, Pepe Escobar, fantastic. But when you go onto the internet or try to find podcasts, there are very, very few resources. Like if you do a search for Syria and Russia, you're going to get maybe twenty results. And there may be one of that twenty that is actually critical of the official line on this. The others are think-tanks, radio talking heads from corporate media or the propaganda NPR, public radio. And I think that's really a travesty because I think people are really hungry for reliable information that's consistent.

I try to tune out a lot of the stuff like Mars and alien stuff because it's just like "wow"; it just goes so far out there. I want to attend to like what's happening right now with the US and Russia and China. And I'm having a huge problem finding really good quality podcast and radio where discussions occur at length on these issues. Again, I could find all kinds of stuff that is sketchy, that's like way out-there. And I think that's partly by design.

Shane: I think I'd agree with you too Jonathan. And I think there is probably a good segment of the population is fed up with the lack of substance that is found in the news. There's no real analysis, it's all just basic fear mongering, and not even covering specific events. After Putin went into Syria, I was curious and looking around the web and I was amazed that there really was nothing about it in the mainstream news, if there was a story it was about what Clinton said or Trump said, there was no actual news. And I'd agree with you, people do want that. It was pretty interesting because I saw a lot of the articles on; they went viral because people were seeking them out. There can be consequences for the powers that be because of that silence; Russia was really the only one putting that information out, with RT and Sputnik, they were able to say, "This is what's going on." And since the mainstream news wasn't covering, people were looking to alternative sources. So this narrative - I don't really want to say narrative because that's how the United States operates. They'll present a narrative from some new issue and form the public perception around whatever those events were.

But because this time they were behind, they weren't able to create the narrative, they were only able to distract people but the interest was there.

Jonathan: Yeah and you know because of the dearth of quality audio - I do a lot of physical labour and I also drive a lot - so I end up listening to these official sources discussions on National Public Radio, this show (, On Point blah, blah, blah and they have these experts that come on; they're academics, they're employees of various think-tanks tied to the defence industry but I listen to their narratives, and it's really interesting, that when you hear people say stuff that's just outright lies, like the chemical weapons and Assad, this is taken up as gospel so the core assumptions are not questioned. Also, I recognised and it's very interesting that when people start configuring Putin, they're like, "Oh, here's this guy, he's got his shirt off." this is projection, Psychological projection and imputing onto Putin and the Russia establishment, or China, these nefarious goals. This is really a deep psychological projection of our own craven, arrogant, Machiavellian propensities onto the 'other', which is Putin. And this is really a deep psychological delusion. Now I am not saying that Putin is pure and this and that.

But I see that Putin is heuristic - and what I mean by that is a mode of analysis and interpretation that's involved in goal-seeking behaviours. So RT for example, Anissa Naouai [RT host], she made a comment one time that really struck me because it so mirrors my perception; it's about truth. Truth isn't something that you can concretize and then point to, Truth is something that's much more fluid and dynamic and basically we create our 'Truth' through our narrative. And our truth through our narrative is also tied to our goals, our desires, our deep core beliefs, our assumptions, etc. So I believe the reason the west is failing so incredibly right now is in fact what I see in the assumption in these experts, from all these think-tanks, academics, talk-show hosts, and all other personalities who are bestowed credibility as being opinionators. So their assumptions totally fail because they just project. They're miserably failing.

Now on the other hand Putin and China they're being more successful; why, because they're looking at things in a more efficacious and productive manner. And that they're not going out and trying to dominate, bully and all of that, they're trying to cooperate, build up other people and nations with whom they build alliances, and that's just a clear path to success compared to the United States. So it isn't a mystery why Putin and the Russian's are going to be successful - I could be wrong. But ultimately they're going to be successful in this conflict in the middle east because the United States has been so cynical in its core assumptions for so long they have created the misery of instability, that they want to project is the result of what Putin is doing when in fact it's going there - and you take into account all of these different players and people within these countries that have a legitimate right to have a voice to say how things develop. Well you can develop stability from that kind of vantage point.

So I just find it fascinating that all of these people claim, "Putin did this." how do they know?? And if you ever corner these people on it, they'll break down before you like little whimpering children. Because ultimately they just take what somebody else says as gospel and they never deeply research and go to resources within Russia or Syria to find out what other people are saying, and going deeper. They repeat just crap. This is the sad state of our media here. Do a Google-search and you guys come up on the first freaking page! And it's like - one more point before I get off and I really thank you for letting me express myself in full. I saw an article on Russia Insider about Google altering the algorithms of searches and they're going to be the arbiters of whether or not a website that presents information is going to be worthy of people looking at. And this is purely going to be a political and subjective interpretation. I don't know if you guys have seen that or not.

Shane: Yeah, I've seen something recently with Google. They've been doing these things for years where they'll alter their algorithm based on how profitable a news organisation is, and all these influences that we don't hear about or necessarily know about, and yes it is a basic way to suppress information.

Jonathan: Yes! Information that doesn't bolster the ideas supported and presented by the status quo. And I do these searches for podcasts and its like "wow"; why such an incredible dearth of critical thinking in the presentation of what comes up. I know it's in the culture en masse, in general in the United States and also in Europe. But, wow, I know there's a lot of podcasts and resources that I just don't have the time to research deeply for hours and hours a day that I'm missing. It's wild.

Meg: It's like the United States is kind of a product of itself. The advisers and the people that give direction, they're a product of what they've created so it can't be any better than it is.

Jonathan: Yes. I wanted to say one other thing, I've also noticed among people who are critical and they're more boned up with the machinations of the United States with respect the middle east and its history, they're also coming out and denigrating people for being 'Putin lovers'. So I would be put into the category of: "Well, Steve, you just hate the United States so much that you're just going to jump on Putin's bandwagon and become a Putin lover." - I'm sorry I just said my real name (Laughter). The sad thing is, I really respect Putin not just because he's a major critic of the United States and he's actually making moves to country US uni-power, but I respect the man a lot just from what he says and what he's done, what his history is, his family history, not because of any particular religion or thing like that, I'm historically a progressive leftist. It's not just because he's challenging the United States but because he's a sane person, he's a sane leader, who's helping his people, his country, the Russians, up off the floor after they were almost literally raped.

They had people in Russia hating their own culture because of the domination, after the fall, of the United States. He's helping people dust themselves off the floor and go, "Hey, we are valuable. We do have something to say about how the world develops." I just find it interesting that people feel they can't come out and say, "Hey I admire this leader.", because there's just this huge morass of lies against Chavez, Moralez, Correa and then Putin. Just a huge morass of lies that people believe because - I guess it's just politically more efficacious to believe the lies and repeat it just to get along in society. But nope, I'm not going to do that. Anyway, I would like, if you have guys have time in your broadcast today, to hear some of your thoughts of what's going on over there in Syria and Iran and so forth.

Elan: Yeah. Well we're going to circle around a little bit on the topics of shooting and conspiracy theory. I think you brought up some very good points, Jonathan, as I'll call ya (laughter). We don't want to get too caught up in the minutiae but we want to know enough to see the patterns where they exist and to recognise how we're being manipulated.

Jonathan: Yeah. I just want to make it clear and then I'm going to hang up. I don't discount that in some of these instances some of these people are being manipulated and maybe these are false-flags - I don't discount that but I just want to put up a word of caution: just be careful in buying the whole-hog. Because it's so easy for all of us to read stuff in to situations to confirm our tendency and bias. So, that's it. Thank you!

Elan: I did just want to make one more point - I'm not sure if you're there Jonathan -

Jonathan: I'm here.

Elan: - and that gets back to Putin. I don't think we've seen a leader like Putin for the past three or four generations at least. I don't think it's in most western people to have an understanding of what a truly proactive, constructive and uncorrupted leader is; I don't think they recognise it, I don't think there's anything in their experience to account for the behaviour of Putin so it becomes so much easier to vilify the man, especially when that's all you're hearing about the guy; just another point there.

Jonathan: Totally agree with you. Very acute analysis, I really appreciate it. Hey, God bless y'all, take care, bye-bye.

Meg: Thanks Jonathan.

Shane: Thanks Jonathan. Well one thing before we do get back to the shootings and stuff, I wanted to touch on what Jonathan brought up which is the political perception of Russia and how I think the things that he's doing; he's speaking to the world through actions and that's not something that we're used to. We're basically used to politicians saying one thing and things turning out wrong and then so and so getting blamed, usually the victims getting blamed, and that' just the matter of course in the way things work. With Putin's actions, it really is the first time we're seeing human behaviour and not just human behaviour but decent human behaviour on the world stage. So if people do have any capacity left to recognise what the truth is, some may start to question, "Well, you know, maybe what I've been told about Putin isn't actually the truth because what I'm seeing is different. What I'm seeing is decent and noble behaviour." So perhaps that opportunity will be taken by more people but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Elan: This is kind of the same dynamic that we've seen with Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. I mean, for how many decades I thought that this guy was a terrorist, fanatical, eccentric - maybe he was a little eccentric - but basically a pretty evil, twisted dude. And it took literally years for the truth about the man to finally come out. So it's just a testament to how much cognitive dissonance is imposed on us by these false perceptions of people.

Shane: It's funny because you'll see a lot of people even progressives, people who want good of things for society and who can see the United States is corrupt but also think that every other nation is like that, and of course Putin is too. So it's just easy to put those blanket statements out there like that, "All politicians, since they're politicians, they're going to be evil." and that's not necessarily the case. It is probably 98% of the time and it doesn't happen often that we have these really amazing people rise to positions of power but when they do, they get demonised, it's crazy, the west goes after them. And that's because they're a threat.

William: They lose the information war.

Shane: And that's the interesting thing that Putin has been able to do. The hindsight - not just the hindsight - the insight; he implemented RT [Russia Today] and Sputnik. Those organisations, they're playing such a big role right now in putting out true accurate details about what's going on in the world. Without which the world would just be left with alternative news and the mainstream media that the west just has a complete hold over.

Meg: I wanted to bring up the Greenbaum thing again, just reading about it and learning what we learn being editors; the first big shooting was that one in Oregon at the community college where ten people were killed and twenty injured. When I think about the possibility of the shooter, or shooters, being beamed or called on the phone or whatever it is they do to trigger these Greenbaum victims, it's like it radiates outward. First you have the Oregon community college shooting, then you have four more incidences where there's either a reported shooter/shootings and it's like, is it a onetime hit where they push a button and beam somebody and everyone goes off, or is it a missed target, or is it something that radiates outward to anyone who might have been subjected to even just a minor amount of brainwashing or mind-control? Do they react to the first shooting - do you understand what I mean? That first shooter that goes off, is it like a domino effect? Or is it individual - you know what I mean?

Shane: It's hard to say. It may be if this is all coordinated, some might go off - I don't know.

Meg: It's hard to know.

Shane: Yeah, it's hard to know. But it was really interesting that right after the Oregon shooting there was another in Florida where three people were killed I think outside a city hall. And there was another besides that -

Karen: The Northern Arizona University.

Shane: Yeah that's the one.

Karen: I think that was before the Oregon one?

Meg: It was after. It was on October 9th; Northern Arizona University and the Texas Southern University. And at Texas Southern University that was their second shooting in a week. There was another one where they discovered four students attempting to plot, that was the first one I could find after the Oregon shooting; there was another on the 6th, three more on the 9th.

Elan: So all of these happening in quick succession and, like we were saying a little earlier, when you have this huge event that's impacting the perception of the US in particular, and you have a media in the US that's so tight and in lock-step with its political elite that's going to cover a story in a particular way; it's kind of difficult to not see how this - Roosevelt said that nothing in politics happens by coincidence - I'm paraphrasing. These are things that are staring us in the face and Jonathan's correct, we should be careful about this. We leave our tinfoil hats at home when we go out and buy our bacon. But at the same time these patterns, it's important to recognise them for what they are.

Shane: When you look into the patterns of these things it's interesting to see how these dynamics play out and how you can identify them over and over and over again. With these mass shootings, a common theme is that there is one shooter that's reported but then there are also subsequent reports of additional shooters. That happens time and time again. And when you see these things play out there are these patterns. So I do totally get what Jonathan's saying about, the need to be careful. But look at just the inherent mechanism of those in charge and to really see that and what they're capable of I think that's -

Meg: Guantanamo, the torture in Abu Ghraib. They're capable of some really horrific things. And this is just what we know about.

Elan: Well you know Meg, when you mentioned a couple of minutes ago the mechanism or dynamic by which people get triggered, or Greenbaum or beamed or influenced by some kind of electro-magnetic manipulation, which we didn't really get into but we know exists. Heck, the CIA and other agencies have had all kinds of psychotronic technology and ways of manipulating people's thought-waves and thinking and reactions to things; they can literally beam verbal or audio messages into your mind. But you touched on something that was on my mind when we were discussing this show today. And that is that there's all this pathological behaviour that's induced, all of this murderous behaviour that happens for various reasons; does it have an effect on people who it's not directed on? Is there some kind of residual effect on the psyches of people? Because we have been reading all these stories; the son who cut his mothers heart out with a hatchet and, as we discussed earlier, the two boys of sons of the parents in the church and one of them literally being beaten to death. And other just horrific stories, one after the next, so what the hell is happening there?

Meg: It may just be that they feel like they have been given permission. The stories come to light or it responds to some base element in within them; they've got some unrest or some critical mass point that they're close to, and these things give them permission to think that way, and they spontaneously combust. And there it is, they go out and do something. It's probably more of an 'in the moment' kind of thing.

Elan: So what I'm hearing you say is that some of the violence, at least among some people that are unstable, is becoming normalised in a way?

Meg: Yeah. I think so. I think that the triggers are there, they needed to have an outlet, there is none in our society it's kind of like all the ways we used to have 30/40 years ago, when people were still part of families that shared different activities and their moral up-bringing, that's gone away, you don't have that sense of family and the teachings that allow us to process this differently. Instead you've got a really hurried society, everything Is really fast, you're following the Twitter trends and you don't have the time or capacity to think things through, especially someone who's on the edge of a really big problem. And they don't have the information for what their alternatives are.

Shane: Good point. This kind of reminds me of Naomi Klein's, the Shock Doctrine. She wrote about what goes on in the mind control victim, how they get there and the Greenbaum speech goes into that, Dr. Colin Ross goes into that. The individual will experience these types of trauma and subsequently be very controllable afterwards. When we look at it on a large scale, when we look at these shocks being applied not just on individuals but also on people and in these instances we're talking about normal people: What happens to normal people? We basically experience a trauma and we look for some type of protection, our minds experience this state where we're easily malleable, these new ideologies are able to be implemented. So I think that's part of the use of looking into these mind-control things because it is applicable on the world stage. And while there's so many different segments to look at, like what effect does this have on normal people, and what effect does it have on pathologicals?
So it does seem to open up the doors to say, "Hey, yeah, this is our time!"

Meg: It brings the crazies to the limelight.

Shane: So it has all sorts of different effects depending on the individuals' inner make-up.

Elan: Well, this reminds me in a way of what's happening in Israel and Palestine, in Gaza and the west Bank. Elements of Hammas were calling for a 'day of rage' earlier in the week, in response to the indiscriminate killings that the IDF continue to inflict, taking sniping shots at innocent people. And this repressive force that's being inflicted, on the Gazan's in particular who still haven't recovered from the last assault by the IDF, over 2000 people were killed. So they're basically past hiding at this point and they're saying it, "We can't lose". So they're going around, I guess in east Jerusalem, and various places they're sending soldiers. Of course there are other elements of Hammas and other groups who see how this can be used as justification for further violence inflicted on the Palestinians. So they don't want to escalate or make the situation any worse that it is. To read about it, it's just a totally horrible situation. Netenyahu has been mouthing off again and talking about 'protecting Israeli's' and it's really the perfect justification for another incursion into Gaza to kill another 1000 or 2000 more people.

It's just a terrible, terrible cycle that will not end till the psychopathic government of Israel is somehow disbanded.

Shane: We've been seeing a lot of stories of IDF indiscriminately killing Palestinians in public places. Where they claim that a woman was holding a knife or - some excuse which they can't prove at all, when it's cold blooded murder. They're basically trying to push people to the edge; it's the same in the United States with all these cops going nuts, killing people. On the most basic level, the foot soldiers, we know there is this distraction say, "you need to go and kill some black kids." but there is an atmosphere and there is a train of these guys that goes up to higher levels, where it does seem that there is some coordination to create this chaos to push people over the edge. I think it's pretty apparent.

Elan: It's a cover.

Meg: And they're exposed to the same things your average American is exposed to; War on terror, television; they're influenced by the same things that you had on that special training - you've got an evergreen crop.

Karen: And then you have blow-back from the public because they tend to balance out. The more the police force is militarised and acts like military or acts unprofessionally, the stronger the reaction is from the public, the people who are being subjected to that.

Shane: The paranoia and fear is really engrained in them. Cops have this really close-knit culture. And if you've ever talked to any of them, there is this really strong, basically, paranoia of people; it doesn't take much to send them over the edge. There was a case; I think the actual incident was from February. There was a young boy - well he was seventeen and he didn't use his blinkers and was pulled over by a cop. I'd say the kid didn't really care for being pulled over, but in no way did the final action of the police officer make any sense; he was shot seven times. He didn't have any weapons. I believe he was tazed first. This kind of behaviour we're seeing it every day, it's really insane.

Elan: And I think part of it is this legal infrastructure that for the most part communicates to police in the US that if you should do this you'll be exonerated, and we've seen it time and time again. Like the story of Tamir Rice and how the prosecutor was shifting the narrative towards a justifiable homicide by bringing in an expert where he didn't really need to, and this expert, who by the way had experience in another case -

Meg: Jennifer Hernandez.

Elan: - Jennifer Hernandez, where he got the cop off for killing Jennifer Hernandez. So it's like the prosecutor is not only not doing his job, he's doing the opposite of his job.

Meg: According to the story you're talking about, the misuse of the grand jury, the grand jury has a certain role, he was using that. So it'll be interesting to see what happens with that.

Shane: That's what we see right? The legal structure in the United States is being used not for justice, not for truth but basically for itself to create loopholes - it's not even that anymore, now it's just completely corrupt. And I think we could talk about the recent bombing of the Afghanistan Hospital, Doctors without Borders, in relation to this and how it relates to law because the United States has lost its mind and it really thinks it can get away with anything. Legal consequences don't matter to them at all because they make the law.

Elan: Right. So this story which broke this week was, as I'm sure many of our listeners are aware, the Doctors without Borders hospital in Kunduz in Afghanistan was bombed by US forces a few weeks ago. And this is after the people at the hospital had repeatedly mentioned the coordinates of the hospital to the military forces. In fact they sent them in advance as well. I think they bombed them five or seven times in the space of a few hours. It's just ridiculous. It's such a blatant and horrific attack that the representatives of Doctors Without Borders has come out and said that they are thinking of - basically accusing the US of war crimes.

Meg: That's exactly what it was, absolutely.

Elan: Yeah. So about three days ago, with a US tank rolling up to the front, breaking its way into the side of the area that was bombed, traumatising the few employee that were there and wrecking part of the place. It's just like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime. And the Pentagon has come out, Obama has come out and said we apologise, and the Pentagon is going to make some financial restitution using all of its fake, play, monopoly money that's going to be worthless soon in any case. And in the meantime, as all of this is happening, they go in and they wreck part of the place, by force. So, it's - I don't even know what else to say.

Meg: It's arrogance.

Elan: It's pure arrogance. It's bullying is what it is. And as has been pointed out last week when we were discussing this, the whole timing of the bombing of the hospital, only a couple of days from when Russia began its action in Syria. It's just pure blood-lust. Just needing this other avenue to express this psychopathic rage on a victim - on anybody! And I think, Shane, when we were talking about it you made the analogy of the psychopathic husband who gets crap at work and goes home and beats his wife! It's not so different, except we're seeing it from the 'exceptional country'.

Shane: It'll be interesting to see what comes out of this legally. Doctors without Borders, has some money behind it and some prestige. If they weren't involved, I don't that this would be that big in the media because the United States has bombed plenty of innocent people in the past. But Doctors without Borders they are looking to file a case with an organisation that was created from the Geneva conventions and I don't know how far they can move forward with that. They just launched a press briefing and the state department was asked what their stance on it was, and they said "we don't have one", "we don't have a stance on an independent investigation", when the military have the most thorough investigations in the world, what complete BS.

Elan: They're taking their script from the IDF.

Meg: Well they really believe it, they really believe in their exceptionalism.

Karen: Well as far as initial law goes, they internationalise basically western ideas and it is adjudicated by consensus. So how many arms can the United States twist to get the verdict they want.

Elan: Yeah, that's another point. They've already go Saudi Arabia as head of the Human Rights Commission.

Meg: Oh that's a laugh.

Elan: It's a joke. It's a bad joke. So yeah, I guess we'll see. Maybe this was an attempt to intimidate them but I hope this story continues to get international play.

Shane: Yeah me too. In relation to international law, I think its pretty genius on Putin's part. He's taking this framework that west promotes as its most valued, highest order of man - which it completely violates - but it's using it as a shield, essentially. And saying, "This is actually the law and we're following it" because the United States does not follow international law; it hasn't with Syria, it hasn't with Iraq, it hasn't in Libya; it doesn't follow international law, it does what it wants.

Elan: It doesn't even follow its own. Obama issues these single executive branch executed mandates for war here and there, doesn't speak to congress, he really is - and folks this is so important to realise that behind this big white smiles and progressive veneer and all of his articulateness and whatever charm he seems to muster up, his reputation as a 'civil rights lawyer/activist', the guy is basically the most arrogant terrorist, empowered by guys with names we don't even know, to do the things he's doing; it's a big con. And it's nice to see all the news Hillary Clinton is getting these days the point to her complicity in Libya and some other things as well.

Shane: That'll all blow over once she's president.

Elan: Yeah. And she probably will be. Unless the government declares that some agency has to take over because of extenuating circumstances. We were talking a little bit before, William brought up the subject, of food riots. And this is just another piece of the puzzle we're seeing here in the US. Food inflation has gone up quite a bit. There's something like 1 out of every 7 million children who are going hungry or are on food assistance and it's just another factor that's exacerbating the stress of daily living. We've had Michael Snider and Fernando Aguirre talking us through the various stages leading up to an economic collapse and what seems to be a probably scenario here in the US. When food gets scarce you're going to have people resorting to things and doing things in the US that they feel compelled and forced to do. It's going to be a very sad situation indeed because most of the people who will be fed will be those who are working for law enforcement of the military and there's going to be this Gaza-IDF situation only a thousand times bigger, here in the US.

Shane: When we look at the coming economic collapse it seems there's so many things that feed into that, it's not just the instability and the nature of these indebted big banks. But it goes through to everything to include our moral society as well as the fundamental building blocks of society, the nature of our families, the bonds have or don't have, down to the basic skills that we don't have; all these things are making for a truly ugly and scary picture. There's no real and true basis to live as a normal society, we're so abnormal, and that's kind of the theme of the show: We've normalised the abnormal and we're so far removed from what it means to be a human society that we don't have those skills whether it's emotional connection to one another; all those things make for a really, really scary picture for the coming times. And not just the coming times, now. Where we're at now, I think it would be fair to say that we're not looking at a collapse in the future but we're living in the collapse right now.

It looks like it will get a lot worse but there already is a moral collapse; there isn't the recognition of the pain and suffering we're causing others and just really outrageous behaviour playing out in society, and on the world stage, but the interesting thing is that it's gotten so bad and it's becoming so apparent that the opportunity does exist now for people to see it. I think it's an important point to try and dissect a little, how can people survive this collapse? And I think a lot of that is in being able to see it first of all, there are many disasters but it seems we are hard-wired just to deny what reality is and part of seeing things as they unfold is really essential for moving forward and moving through it. And it might be a little abstract a concept when people ask "What can we do; How can we get through this?" and part of the answer is to see it.

Elan: I think that's a good point, I think it can be empowering what the causes are of certain conditions that you're faced with, otherwise you're just faced with 'it'. You can just imagine one day a person walking to their ATM and having no access to cash; going to the supermarket and finding hundreds of people scrambling for the items you would like; coming home and watching whatever news program it is you're used to watching and then hearing that access to cash has been taken away, there's a bank holiday and the banks may reopen in a week and Obama is going to speak at 8 o'clock at night to discuss the situation on the ground; the stock market just dipped 2000 points and it has something to do with China selling US bonds; all of this, the narrative of those days when things go completely kaflooey and you don't really know what the hell is going on, you're disoriented, disempowered, you're job may end, you'll be surrounded by confused and stressed out people; this is going to be a really stressful thing that's probably set to occur in the near future. And being able to anticipate it, a little bit, plan for it, prepare for it, get right in your mind, have something stashed away, have some food stashed away, have people you can trust and communicate with as this is occurring, it's all going to ameliorate what's going to be a really difficult time, because the stress level is going to go through the roof among millions and millions and millions of people.

And it's going to be experienced, everybody is going to be sharing in this - it's going to make 9/11, it might dwarf it in comparison. Because you're talking about day to day existence and desperate people and crime going up, and the people that you look to not having any kind of constructive way to address it, but giving you more of the same. So you can expect a lot of lashing out and a lot of anger and this is what you want to be aware of and preparing yourself for.

Shane: Part of narcissistic behaviour - and there's narcissistic personality disorder but I think when we're talking about society it's something a little bit different. We've inherited a narcissistic society and it seems there is this real fine line of this fear of going insane, because it's there, because it exists as part of narcissism that this denial of reality is so strong that with that is the fear of actually facing reality. Because when you're denying that and then you're faced with reality, it's like getting smacked in the face and perhaps there might be no coming back for some people; I think it could be that strong. Another part of the social decline that we're seeing it could be since Russia stepped on the world stage in a very strong way, reality has become much more apparent so there is this insanity that comes along with it for those who can only live in this denial world, this psychopathic reality. So there is this juncture, this merge, and those who haven't had this experience to really look at the lies, it's not going to be just an external collapse, but it can be a collapse of the mind too.

Meg: People will snap.

Elan: Well that reminds of the writings of Gurdjieff; he talked about buffers or these appendages, these ways we associate and dissociate and put certain things between ourselves and reality in order to soften the blow every which way. You don't even have to think of it as a blow, just being completely engaged in things as they are. And we do this with television and video games and all sorts of other activities that are just about this bubble of fun that we want to exist in, because it's fun, it's warm, it's fuzzy. But there are at least two degrees of reality that are going to get pierced by something like an economic collapse, for many people who will be totally unprepared within themselves to respond constructively. So yeah, a pretty heavy situation; it makes me want to go out and have a couple of bourbons (Laughter); put that buffer up!

Meg: Can we come?

Elan: No, I'm just kidding.

Meg: Ok... I didn't really want to, not at all, uh-uh; not me (Laughter).

Karen: I think in some respects to the world situation is if you boil it down to a microcosm it's much easier to assimilate into your thinking, and then you have to look at your own personal situation; what about my life and how I'm acting or reacting or experiencing has some lessons in relation to what's coming down the pipe from the bigger picture. Also you have to understand that civilisations or societies they come and go, they build up and they deteriorate, they disintegrate and then they rebuild. So I think on a grand scale humanity isn't totally lost, it's just in the woods right now and we'll have to see what it's going to do to get itself out of it and maybe this will be one giant rebirth.

Elan: I agree. We talked today a little about the reverberations and the feelings and the 'new norm' that gets absorbed by people without their even realising it. Some of them act out in various ways that doesn't necessarily have to be violent, like a mass-shooting or something like that. But here's the flip side to the coin if you will of people seeing things much more for how they are and communicating with people who are seeing and experiencing a kind of enlightenment about the reality. And also as you were saying Karen, paying attention of how they're reacting, responding, how they're doing it and why, and becoming better people for it. So there is a divergence here and we choose what we want to align ourselves with, with every choice we make of every day; how are we going to spend our time, what are we going to think about, what do we want to emulate, who do we want to emulate, what qualities in individuals do we find admirable? Just as much as we abhor Obama and Brzezinski - and the list can go on - there are people out there who are very brave and courageous and talking about things that are worth talking about, and we've covered a little of that on our show as well.

Karen: Part of people prepping for a financial collapse and maybe you have a few more canned goods or some more light-bulbs and flash-lights, those kinds of things, but I think the real preparation has to be done inside yourself. How am I going to keep my integrity as I know myself and work for the betterment of mankind and those around me, and how do I keep myself level when everything else is falling apart? And that's part of the prep work.

Shane: When we're looking at this collapse, on one hand, there's so many horrific things that we're seeing with social decline and disintegration and just these really nasty stories, but on the other hand when we look at it, it's really this psychopathic system that's collapsing. And I think you're right Karen it's also a matter of how much we're aligned with that within our thoughts and the things that we do. And depending on that is how much of our inner landscape will collapse with this outer collapse. So if we can begin to see the truth and the lies and align ourselves with a more human world, I think that will really give us a step up in whatever is to come next. There's always the possibility that after collapse these psychopaths will try to take hold. But if there is something real, any true human organisation that can withstand this collapse, that could be a centre of or a new foundation for something real. I think it's very natural to be really disturbed over all these things that we're seeing but I think there is a flipside to this, an opportunity. It sure is interesting times.

William: Yeah. Talking about your inner landscape, I was also thinking about, it makes you wonder how much of your inner landscape can influence the outer landscape. And another thing about pattern recognition, which is something that we track every month on, we have our video of Earth Changes of weird weather events and things like that. And I think we might have some dots-connecting on some of the weather events that's been happening recently.

Elan: Well, at the very least, and this has been touched upon before, there is this incredibly intense uptick in the number of floods and heavy rains that have been hitting around the planet in various places.

Meg: Waterspouts; volcanoes rumbling but not necessarily erupting, there's a lot of activity.

Elan: A lot of activity; there's this talk of an ice age. There's talk of El Nino and other factors. This flowing of the jet-stream in the Atlantic and all of these other various factors kind of coming together to bring upon an ice age in coming years, if not sooner. We know that England is going to be facing some really horrifically cold and snowy weather. So it's a good question William, as we're seeing all of these really crazy events and negative disintegrations in the US and around the world, how is it we're seeing all this weather and geological activity at the same time? This really can't be just a coincidence.
I'm told that we have a caller?

Shane: Yes we have a caller on the line.

Karen: Yay!

Shane: Hi caller, are you there?

Lee: What's happening?

Shane: Hi! What's your name and where you calling from?

Lee: My name is Lee and I'm calling from California, Rancho Cucamonga.

Karen: Hi Lee. Are you shaking out there Lee?

Lee: Ha ha, nah, this is weird. I've listened to your show before and I've just read an episode descriptor about violence so I may be calling at a totally inopportune time with that topic but I just wanted to call and see if there was anything that I could add to that particular part of the broadcast.

Shane: Sure.

Karen: Do you have a particular experience?

Lee: Well no, I host a show on Blogtalk which is why I was listening and I do liberal politics. One of thing I wanted to talk about really briefly was this kind of vein of energy that has permeated our society throughout political and social structure. And this is quite evident with the emergence of Donald Trump and the kind of energy he gives off, and it seems to have tapped into a real aggressive, sort of detached from having empathy for people, these statements about Mexican immigrants and just the kind of energy that a person like a Donald Trump gives off. And the sort of connection with that to the NRA and the sort of detachment that gun-second amendment devotees have when we have these upswings in violence that have occurred at astronomical levels, in my opinion. And it's just - if I could say - shit storm; when you just blend in climate change and the whole deniability with that, we have such a polarisation in this country that is pretty foreboding and scary.

So I just wanted to express that because I really do think this is a pivotal time in our country politically, where a person - not to get too political - like Bernie Sanders who represents a kind of utopian country like any other socialist country where we look at things like healthcare and we look at things like wealth distribution and we look at things like greed and we say this is a time where we need to have in conjunction with those ideologies, a revolution; where people seem to be gravitating towards his policies is a good symbol of what can happen if you blend active participation, where voter turnout has increased, and those kind of ideals are actually being listening to. So it's going to take that kind of effort I think with anything we implement change-wise, whether it's climate-change, whether it's second amendment dismantling of the NRA and really getting down to how much are we going to tolerate as a country, as a citizenship.

Elan: Lee, don't you think that guys like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are kind of parked there until the media decides and they've gotten their orders? Because I've already started to see articles with 9 Reasons Why Donald Trump Won't Be President. It's like they're just personalities are put out there to further the illusion that there is some democratic process going on there, where ultimately, I think, we're going to be stuck with either Hillary Clinton or Jeb.

Lee: Yeah. Well you know, I've been following Bernie for quite a while and the Clinton factor - yes, I mean, the whole system, we're so jaded because congress has become almost like a caste system. Sure there's opportunity for people to improve their lives to a certain degree, but I think that revolution is the key word. It's almost like when 'Black Lives Matter' started to emerge as a movement and you look at Baltimore and what happened in Baltimore and you can just feel it percolating; where we were having these instances of violence with unarmed victims who just coincidentally just happened to be African-American. And I don't promote violence. But look at what it took to get civil-rights going and the kind of brutality - and the ugliest side of our culture came out, when people, particularly in the south, the southern bible-belt states, came out and literally beat and killed, savagely, African-American peaceful protesters simply because they wanted to be recognised as human beings. So I think you need to get to that percolating level, and if somebody like - not Clinton, because I think Clinton is too connected to Wall Street, and to a large degree I think Obama was too. We can't put all our eggs in the basket of the president because they only have so much limited power, but we can at least do what I think that democracy calls for us to do. And that is to vote, to protest, to make our voices heard, and that's the only way we're going to do anything to change things in this country.

William: I think the US is kind of ready for that. And probably looking forward to setting up the circumstances for such an event. What do you think?

Lee: I agree. I agree. I think what Donald Trump has brought out - I hate to even mention that guy's name (Laughter) but I think what he's shown - there was this art critic back in the 60's or 70's, could even have been the late 50's. He spoke about art and there was a term he used, I wish I could remember his name, it was in an art class, and what he was saying was that when you allow a certain degree, let's just say crap, to permeate in the art world, then that has a boomerang effect; where people start to accept that, and it tarnishes the art craft or 'art' if you will - not to be redundant. But now we have a Donald Trump come in, just like Sarah Palin come in, just like the Tea Party, and what they do is bring the integrity down in the political structure, and that is what I think is dangerous, in any facet of our country. So I think that our political system has been brought down so much because person like a Donald Trump, who only because of his wealth, has been able to emerge as he has; to finance his own campaign and say whatever the hell he wants. And people gravitate towards that! And it just knocks the whole system down, further, lower, in my opinion, to a lower level where the integrity of that system should be held to a much higher standard.

Even if you look at people like people like Lincoln Chafee and Jim Webb who were in the most recent democratic debate - are you kidding me?? I mean those two guys? I could have run and done a better job. Lincoln Chafee has amassed thirty thousand to support his campaign, it was pathetic; you're telling me those are the best candidates we have for liberalism and progressive ideology in this country? I'm even more ashamed of that as a liberal than I am of the 12 or 17 clown car inhabitants for the GOP-side. So I think we are ready for change and I think that Bernie Sanders will not get elected but he has taken the conversation to a level that it did need to be taken too. We are no safer today financially, because of what Wall Street has been able to do, than we were back in 2008. Our financial system is a stone's throw away from being Greece, again - closer to Greece I don't think we'll ever become Greece. But that was a pretty significant change to our financial and economical stability that could have been prevented, had we had some honourable people actually looking out for the betterment of taxpayers who ended up having to float the bill for that and lost something like 800,000 jobs a month when Bush was in office.

Climate change is just one peg or one plank of what I see as the deterioration of the world; we're not even talking about Syria, and what's going on with Russia, Assad and the inhumanities that have been done to his people; he's even gassed them. 250,000 casualties displaced Syrians who really belong back in their homeland but have left simply to survive its just terrible. (Laughter) I'm sounding like a real negative, defeatist here but I'm actually not. I'm not going to harm myself, I promise.

William: I think, now, the US is too far gone to make any kind of a peaceful turnaround. Like you were saying it's begin set-up for a revolution; people's memories are very short-term, they just listen to sound bites and quick headlines so they're going to be easily manipulated to whatever the US government wants to steer them into.

Lee: Yes, I agree. I don't even - I'll read BBC online and I'll search out different sources of information. I do a podcast, I don't do a live show, I just don't get the calls but I've done much better with just making it a podcast. I do just an hour's show. So for that amount of time I'm able to, I think, coherently explore different stories and different facets of what's going on in the world. And I think climate-change is such a perfect example of the ignorance that we have with certain demographics of the conservatives who just - if 97% are telling you that we have a climate problem and 3% are saying no, which one are you going to drift towards? It's just mind-boggling.

Karen: I think you have to drift towards the truth, whatever that is to you.

Lee: Exactly. I see this with the second amendment minions out there that wants to take 'well regulated militia' to mean unbridled ammunition access, semi-automatic weaponry, 'don't tread on me'; they'll come up with every scenario in the book. But when you have a person that guns down innocent victims - and I hate to say this but it's become the norm, I don't think it's going to get better, I think it's going to get worse. At what point do we say, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result; perfectly applies to the way we are treating this violence problem; I don't even know if it's a gun problem. It's an anger issue.

Karen: I think its violence problem definitely.

Lee: Yeah and we keep drifting towards this mentally ill - well there's a lot of countries that have mentally ill people that don't go out and, because they don't have access to semi-automatic weapons and unlimited magazines of ammunition, they don't go out and kill people; and they say, "Well, if you outlaw guns they'll get them some way. Or they could kill with a knife." Well it's hard to kill 30 people with a knife or to pelt them with tomatoes. It's just disheartening. Anyway, I don't mean to ramble. I hope this has been mildly entertaining and useful. Thank you guys, I really enjoy - and I do look at your descriptions a lot for your show and I really applaud the different topics that you explore; I'm a listener and a follower so I'll continue to follow and listen to you guys. Thanks a lot for time.

Elan: Thanks for calling Lee. And I just want to invite you to take a look at our website sometime if you get a chance.

Lee: Cool!

Elan: It's One of the things that was brought up in your discussion was Assad's behaviour towards his own people. So we do invite you to look at the many articles that paint a very different portrait of Bashar Al Assad.

Lee: I will definitely. I just looked at it right now so I'm going to bookmark it and I will definitely call back and I look forward to hearing your discussions. You guys have a tremendous day.

Meg: Thanks.

Shane: You too Lee.

Elan: That was an interesting call. And I'm glad that he was able to speak his mind. Was there anything else that we -

Shane: Well one thing that Lee touched upon, that I did agree with. People are making choices and aligning with some really bizarre things. One example is the Donald Trump case. He's such a caricature of America, what America has become.

Karen: If he were elected it would be an accurate snapshot of our society.

Shane: I agree.

Elan: You know who he reminds me of?

Shane: No.

Elan: In the early 90's we had this talk show host named Morton Downey Junior in the US (Laughter). And this guy would have these like pseudo-political discussions. And inevitably, about half an hour into the show, he would get into an argument with one of his guests, and then he'd start rampaging; stomping around the state. Then the audience would start to rant something like, "Throw them out! Throw them out!" And then they would get on the stage and they would throw out the guest. And everybody would cheer: "Morton Downey Junior"

Shane: You're fired!

Elan: It was this formula. And it was drama. And in many ways, this guy is just like a prototype for Trump - except that he never really got political, and he was just a total nincompoop; people loved him. And at the height of his fame he would go to these gigantic coliseums and event centres and do his thing. He would come up to people with his microphone and they'd rant on about something, he'd cheer them on, give them a hi-five and he'd walk off to someone else. And it was just like bluster, it's like "it's your time to bluster now". And people loved it. Donald Trump; he's mister Bluster.

Shane: on one hand, it is entertaining to see just this political circus. And really, that's probably all the value it does actually have. But it does provide some insight into the American mind, where the American mind is at; it's kind of scary. But even those who are kind of rational, when Donald Trump goes away there'll be some relief, "Ah! Thank god we don't have Donald Trump as president." But then we end up with someone like Clinton, who is an appalling - I can't even call her a human being, the things that she's done, it's monstrous So you have these depictions and these representations, and it's all to create this idea: "we're a free people and we get to choose who are leaders are." and it's just a farce but we all know that.

So, I think that ends our show today. Do we have any other topics we wanted to cover? Be sure to listen to tomorrows show: Behind the Headlines. And then there's the Health and Wellness show. We want to thank all our callers, Jonathan and Lee and our listeners and our chatters for chatting. And we will see you all next week.

All: Byes.