Jon Ryman
This week on Behind the Headlines we spoke once again with Jon Ryman. Jon has published two video documentaries on the so-called terror masterminds Samantha Lewthwaite (aka White Widow) and Abdel Bary (aka at one point 'Jihadi John'). Egyptian born British rapper Bary was initially identified as 'Jihadi John', the black-clad figure in last year's spate of ISIS 'beheading' videos. One month ago however, the Washington Post claimed that Jihadi John was in fact Mohammed Emwazi, a Kuwait-born British man in his mid 20s from who grew up in West London.

Most interesting in these cases is the fact that all three of these alleged 'high profile' terrorists were well-known to British and US intelligence services with their families also having extensive links to the British and US establishments. In the case of the 'official' (for now) Jihadi John - Mohammed Emwazi - this "kind and gentle" computer programmer from London was harrassed for several years by British security Services. Emwazi is the subject of Jon's latest video documentary.

So what's really going on here? Are we witnessing a bizzare theatre constructed by Western governments, intelligence services with the mainstream media serving as stage hands?

Running Time: 01:37:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript:

Joe: Hi and welcome to Behind The Headlines. I'm Joe Quinn and my co-host this week is Niall Bradley.

Niall: Hi Everyone.

Joe: This week we are talking to, as you may have read, we are talking to Jon Ryman. The topic of our show this week is briefly, who is "Jihadi John" but we're not talking to Jihadi John we're talking to Jon Ryman. They're very different people although they have something in common. Jon has been investigating this kind of whole world of, kind of arch terrorist masterminds for probably for the past few years. He's published so far two video documentaries, one on the infamous white widow otherwise known as Samantha Lewthwaite, and more recently a guy called Abdel Bary who last year was suspected of being the "Jihadi John", the guy who liked to make You Tube videos of him supposedly beheading western hostages on camera and terrifying western populations. And so Jon is now also investigating the next person who has come on the radar I suppose as being Jihadi John because this first guy who they said was Jihadi John last year that now dismissed him. He was an English rapper or is an English rapper and he's, he's got some shady connections but apparently he's not Jihadi John. There's another guy who's name is Mohammed Emwazi. Now he we're being told is the Jihadi John and he's got a whole interesting history as well. But anyway, Jon Ryman welcome to the show.

Jon: Good evening.

Joe: So we'll just, maybe Jon we'll just get into, well we already said you, we had you on the show last year talking about the white widow, and that kind of very strange dubious suspect with that kind of background that she has and what she has alleged to have done in Africa and Kenya, in the West Gate Shopping Mall attack. She was supposedly the arch mastermind behind that which is really implausible when you look at her, she's just this kind of pasty white twenty thirty something English girl, you know. So you did a documentary on that and then you done one more recently that we watched and, on Jihadi John, I think it's just called Jihadi John on the You Tube channel. So here's a bit of, so here's a bit of background on this Jihadi John, the first guy let's say the...

Jon: Abdel Bary

Joe: Yeah, Abdel Bary the rapper.

Jon: Well, he's now known as Jihadi George because...

Joe: Oh yeah?

Jon: Yeah he's Jihadi George now. Mainstream media really have kind of, (lent over themselves to?), (use the beetle's analogy). So you've got John, George and I presume at some point we'll get Ringo and Paul.

Joe: Right Yeah.

Jon: A little odd and quite disheartening I suppose for a, the remaining Beatles and, but moving on from that, Abdel Bary was in the media focus for I guess about a year and maybe a little more, maybe a little less. As you pointed out in your introduction, he is a rapper he's from central London. And his shady past is, well I mean quite a long, quite a long story. But to (inaudible) it down quite quickly, his father is currently in the super max prison in America, for terrorism charges connected with a 1998 incident in East Africa, which was one of the kind of opening shots or salvos if you want to call that, of this current war on terror. Which you know obviously goes back quite a long way before, I mean a lot of people think it started in 2001 obviously with 911. But it really goes back to I guess ninety eight, ninety three possibly, where there were quite a lot of big incidents revolving around your classic sort of Islamic radicals, Jihadis.

Joe: Right well 1993 had the first world trade center bombing...

Jon: Exactly, yeah. That's really where I would sort of pin point the beginning of the grand theatre. We'll get on to, I hope we can get on to, you know, this whole idea of it being theatre because, I've kind of come to the conclusion now since I last talked to you, that it's all pure theatre. You mentioned Samantha Lewthwaite, I don't want to deviate too much from your question Abdel Bary but, Lewthwaite, since I made the documentary, we're the news with significance that's really come out about her, as she popped up in the Ukraine. And the minute I heard that, I thought come on, this is now, we're going off into, I don't know, pure fantasy land. She's you know, that would have meant effectively that she would have liked to travel by land, she can't get on a plane of course, by land from her base in East Africa up to the Ukraine, which is completely and utterly one hundred percent impossible. Zero possibility of that happening, zero. And she was killed there, you had a lot of stories in places like The Mail, I think it might of made some of the bigger UK papers and quite possibly some of the America papers, that she was killed by a sniper. And then...

Joe: Was this during the coup last year in Ukraine?

Jon: Yeah it was, it was revolving around some of the, well, the ongoing troubles/ war you know that's been going on there. She just, I don't have a lot of info about it because I just completely dismissed, I didn't really want to dig too deep in it because it gives me a headache thinking about it (bit of laughter).

Joe: Boggles the mind what a Jihadi would be doing that in Ukraine, you know?

Jon: I mean at that point you really have to kind of, if that's not a flag directly in your face that this thing from beginning to the end is pure theatre, then I really frankly don't know what more you have to present to people. I mean I don't know how much more evidence you need to give people. So I've kind of, I've sort of, this Samatha Lewthwaite thing, I'm done with this pure theatre. The Abdel Bary thing, he's been shuffled off the last, going back to Bary now, the last real kind of news worthy stuff about him was that he was captured by fellow, Syrian rebels, tortured and somehow managed to escape and got back to the front lines, and that was pretty much that. He's been kind of shuffled off into the background now, and he's kind of exited stage right. And we have a new character now who's been introduced stage left, which is Mohammed Emwazi. And that's really I guess our starting point tonight really is, is how he's popped up, where he's popped up from, who is he, what kind of background he comes from. The whole story behind him is really frankly almost as ludicrous but not quite as ludicrous as Abdel Bary.

Joe: Hmm... Because I've, I was, I was looking at Abdel Bary you know, I didn't realize actually it was just recently in the past couple of months that this new guy has been announced and I think it was the Washington Post announced this new guy as the new, as the real...

Jon: (inaudible)

Joe: Right yeah. That they announced that this was the Jihadi John and Abdel Bary had gone, because I still had it in my mind that it was this rapper guy from the UK. And he, from London, and this new guy's from London as well. But the previous guy who you said has been shuffled off you mentioned his father was, his father was just sent to, got 25 years in prison in the US court for his involvement in those bombings in 1998 in, on the US embassy in Tansania. I'm just recalling a couple of interesting points about those bombings. Actually I think, there's a documentary I watched on it that said it was supposedly some kind of a truck bomb or car bomb, but I think the documentary raised, and it was a fairly mainstream documentary, raised serious questions about whether or not a car bomb could have basically destroyed the entire building. This was maybe a five or six story building, concrete building, big, big building and it was completely levelled. And there was some suggestion that there must have been explosives inside, and also there's another aspect of that the cars that were used, eyewitnesses said that they had diplomatic plates on them. That they were effectively, you know, they weren't just some stolen car you know.

Jon: It wouldn't, to be honest with you I've been quite heavily focused on Emwazi but, the kind of narrative you're relaying it's the same narrative that's...

Joe: Right

Jon: When you look at 93, 2001, the Oklahoma bombings, to be honest with you anyone with a shred of intelligence it's, I mean, it's impossible...

Joe: To believe the official story.

Jon: To clarify that a little bit further, Emwazi, we can introduce him into this kind of whole point and discussion here, Emwazi is supposed to have known, unbelievably, he's supposed to be in touch with contacts with known, some of the people involved in, in the seven seven attacks. Not the original seven seven attacks because there were two. One was foiled, that was the 21st of July and the one that we all know about which is the seventh of the seventh. So let's call it the twenty first of the seventh attacks. Not quite so prominent perhaps in people's minds and in the media, but he is unbelievably linked back to those attacks. Now if you look at those specific attacks, what they were, were a bunch of people probably on psychotrophics and with backpacks full of effectively chipatti flour and hair dye. And they didn't go off of course because they could never go off. And they, the prosecution in the case, and I have to thank Tom Secker here because he's explored this in quite a lot of detail.

The prosecution dragged out this, you know, star expert witness, you know when you have a big case you always try and get these professors in from xy and z university. In this case they dragged out a guy called Hans Michaels who works for Imperial College, he's professor at Imperial College. The people who are listening can go on Google, this guy's name is Hans Michaels, he's a, probably one of the world's prominent explosive experts, ballistics, explosives. I think he's got a physic's background. But his basically testimony was complete and utter nonsense, the bombs could never have gone off. If they test and apparently what's weirder, is they tested these so called 'inverted' bombs, you know the people involved in twenty one seven tested these backpack bombs and the same thing happened. You know, nothing happened. So effectively what you got is a guy standing on a tube train with a backpack, he lets the thing rip, the cap, the detonator cap does go off, it knocks him off his feet a few, you know, sparks go off whatever. Nothing else happenes. Everyone involved gets forty years. And what's really odd here, this is where this kind of story gets really interesting, is Emwazi who is now, just to let your viewers get this through their heads, it's the new Jihadi John, its Mohammed Emwazi. He, at this point in 2005 he's only sixteen years old.

Joe: Right

Jon: He's sixteen, so he's either A; just left school or B; is still at school. He phones one of the bombers, he's apparently supposed to have phoned them on the morning and said, you know, well we don't know what he said but I presume something along the lines of you know "hey what's up, still going to pull your hoax bombing, or whatever the hell you're going to do?". But he's sixteen years old so the stories that we've heard in the media about, "well you know he's just popped up fairly recently", or The Mail and Daily Mail in England is sort of suggesting that we've known about him since, you know, maybe five six (years?) is nonsense. We've known about, the intelligence services have been on this guy and this is where a lot of red flags start popping up straight away. Because we know two things, one; we know that the twenty first of the seventh all those people involved in that particular bombing episode all interfaced with known MI5 agents.

Then we've got Emwazi sixteen years old ringing up one of (inaudible). Now I don't know about you but I find that pretty odd and I'm still trying to establish whether that story is planted, whether it's, I can substantiate that - anything to do with that. Because if it, if it can be substantiated or if it has some weight to it because, I mean just because it happens to pop up in the mainstream media doesn't mean didly squat. Really it doesn't mean anything. I've got to try and substantiate where that information came from and where they got it from and, you know, just typing in the word (inaudible) doesn't really cut it with me I've got to try and get some more meat on the bones so to speak. But if I can substantiate that, that is a huge red flag. Forget about the fact they've known about this guy for years, they've known about this dude for years - Emwazi. Let's go back to seven seven because it's very odd how so much of this modern war on terror really goes straight back in the Euro Asian area, in Europe and, you know, our side of the Atlantic. Which is really where the, you know, most of it is coming from. You know your original 911 bombers were Saudis, it's not coming from the North American side, its coming from Euro Asian side of things. And it's surprising, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of this modern war on terror isn't actually organized or primarily directed or organized by Washington. It's organized and directed by London. And I think this Emwazi thing and a twenty one seven link. If he did call some people on the day of twenty one seven, who we know, we know for a fact that twenty one seven is at best a hoax. And worst case scenario is pure theatre.

Joe: So...

Jon: Sorry to interrupt you there, there's a slightly deeper level where you got to then ask yourself well how is a sixteen year old involved in any of this.

Joe: What use is he?

Jon: What use is he?

Joe: Yeah, at sixteen. That's the question.

Jon: This is where things starts to get really, I guess, quite interesting for our listeners. I'm quite dark because now I'm going to introduce another little area which might blow your mind a little bit. Which is all verified, can all be Googled up, it's you know, not speculation in any sense of the way. It's all fact. The school that he goes to, Emwazi goes to, is a little hot spot of kind of radicalism. The fifteen year olds, the sixteen year olds, the fourteen year olds, now I've got a pretty good hunch that, they're pushing something else, they're not just wandering around West London talking to themselves saying oh you know this is a, the way we've been oppressed and the way that Muslim's have been oppressed, it's shocking and you know we all need to get on the phone and call, MI5 sponsored terrorist cells. Not buying that. There's a couple other dudes in his school that go off and do things. But where it gets really fascinating is the woman who is the head mistress of this school, which I've got to think now cause it's, a lot of this information is fresh for me is, I can probably go away and get it...

Joe: No it's okay.

Jon: I think it's called Quintin Kynaston, it's a school in West London in... West London Maida Vale area surprise surprise. I'll see if I can get a precise name of the school but the woman involved, her name I've got in my brain because I'm actually working on it right now it's Jo Shuter or Jo Shutter, I'm not sure if that's how it's pronounced, I think it's Shutter - Jo Shutter. She won, this woman won the head mistress, head teacher of the year. This school is one of those new schools that Blair set up, which is kind of a, a foundation school. It's kind a like you know, it's hard to express exactly the nature of these types of schools but they have kind of technical aspect to them. You know, they get a little bit of extra push, little bit extra money, they're in a city, that sort of thing. But the population of the school is like ninety eight, ninety seven percent immigrants. And this woman is, obviously with a name like Jo Shutter is a white woman. She gets busted, I think in 2012/2013 for embezzlement. She is embezzling left right and center, taking as much money as she can possibly get. She's buying this she's buying that, she's going on holiday.

So, the woman who gets awarded the head mistress of the year is now barred from teaching for life, meaning that when she goes on television to start talking about Mohammed Amwazi, she's unemployed. You know, they don't mention the fact it's all skipped over the fact that she's effectively totally and utterly corrupt. Where it gets even weirder, if you go online and you start Googling up Jo Shutter, the best thing you'll see is pictures of her shaking hands with Blair because her and Blair turn out to be incredibly good friends. So much so that Emwazi, and this is mind blowing, gets introduced to Blair. Yeah, I mean its mind blowing. That Jihadi John as a fifteen/sixteen year old, don't forget, he's on the phone to terrorist (cells?) at the same time, or at some point and that's you know, that one or two year zone, he's on the phone to the second biggest... If they had been successful twenty one zero seven. The idea in the media was, it was going to be exactly like seven seven. So lots of people get killed, lots of busses get blown up, lots of tube stations get trashed blah blah blah. This is, and the guy who is now Jihadi John, not only is he at a school which is run by a completely corrupt individual, she's also one of Blair's best friends. How that happened I really don't know. But, and she's head mistress of the year being held up by the media, you know, "oh look how good Jo is" and "how wonderful a job she's doing in this school" and ladida ladida. And then Emwazi gets to meet Blair in person. Now how odd is that?

Joe: Pretty odd yeah.

Niall: It's pretty odd but just as a, a side note, one of the terrorist named in attacks here in France, also met, maybe not as a school child but maybe a bit older was invited to the "Champs De Lise" to make... (Sarkozy?)

Joe: One of those guys in the Charlie Hebro attack?

Jon: He couldn't make it up.

Joe: Yeah, strange.

Jon: He couldn't make it up. And this now I'm thinking, I'm really thinking, because, this is kind of going off the deep end a little bit, I'm thinking there's some sort of weird saga going on there. In that particular school I'm thinking no, there's no, because this entire Abdel Bary, Emwazi and there's a whole raft, I mean we're talking I'd say somewhere between a region of half a dozen to sort of ten quite well, they're not well known but they're terrorists. Some of them are in jail in Ethiopia, some of them popping up in Syria. There's a whole crew, that we won't bore our listeners with the names but they're all popping up from this one area. They're all popping up from effectively the Maida Vale area, that sort of West London area. And three specifically from this school are, but I do find it slightly odd and mind blowing that, you know, that he is on the phone one minute to the twenty one seven crew, and at the same time he's meeting, you know, he's meeting Blair. Is it possible that Blair had a bit of hands on there? I mean is it that crazy? Is it that...

Joe: Well, I don't know, I mean for me this whole area of, of where these terrorists, so called terrorists that have been in the news over the past number of years, where they come from and how they get to be, you know, held up as these.. (inaudible comments)

Jon:'s not, you know MK Ultra 1965 and that's you know, but there is some sort of, I can't put that information really in any other way of explaining.

Joe: Well Jon let me just ask you, I mean there's obviously something, there's a commonality among all these people, I mean even going back to, going back to their London bombings and the Jihadi John guy and the white widow and even the guy, Abdel... the guy who killed the soldier, the soldier... (inaudible, Joe and Jon trying to remember the name). Yeah that guy. But the thing is all these people have a history of having contact we know. They all have contact with British intelligence right? At some time in their past. So the question is what I can never get past that in terms of trying to identify just what the process is, from where they are being harassed or they're first contacted by the establishment authorities quite a long time ago, quite a long time before they raise, they come to profile in the media as having carried out a terrorist attack or whatever. What is a process that happens between that first contact and then appearing in the papers.

Jon: Well, I mean look, there's absolutely no doubt now. Okay, I mean, we're going to get on a little bit deeper into Emwazi's specific contacts because it's a long story, and it drags out, it is MI5 'contacts' drag out, for what is effectively his entire adult life in what I can make out. But to answer your question, you've pin pointed it exactly, they all, the only time they, now how can I say this correctly. They all interface, all these characters that were thrown up into the, you know, our 1984-esque media, they're all at some point the only contact they have with the bad guys ie: Al-Qaeda or Al-Shabab or Isis, is through our friends in the intelligence services. That's the only contact.. To give you an example, I'm Mohammed Emwazi, you're another fellow radical. I want to become or I'm a little nutty or whatever I'm espousing some opinions, you approach me as a fellow sympathiser whatever, and you're the intelligence services.

There's another person somewhere further (inaudible) that is kind of the organization Isis or Al-Qaeda, but we never actually, the only way through to that, if you, you know, the only way through you go is through yourself. You're the intelligence services, it's like every, all these characters all seem to have a conduit through the intelligence service. Every one of them has had contact with the intelligence services. Now that's not a coincidence. We can't be letting them all just, oh we just, you know, they slip through, we've just been monitoring for ten years, but they slip through. They just slip through, though you know, this guy slipped through that guy slipped through, come on it's quite obvious what's been, what's happening. The slipping through process is what's supposed to happen. That's what's supposed to happen, they're supposed to slip through.

Joe: Well we know quite a lot actually from the US but lots from the UK recently, in terms of these FBI terror plots. They have actually come on mainstream and there's been a mainstream exposure about how the FBI and the US will go through it's... They'll have a, an informant, some guy who they've arrested for some drug dealing or something, and they'll give him an opportunity to be a, an informant and not go to jail. So this guy they'll use him to go and contact some kind of low level naive stupid poor whatever, group of people or one or two people, guys usually, of, very often of kind of middle easterne, you know African extraction. And this FBI informant will coach them in basically joining up to say Al-Qaeda, you know, they'll suggest them that they might want to, you know, join Al-Qaeda then they might want to think about blowing something up and here's fifty thousand dollars, and here's some bullets and here's a bomb and go and press the button and boom, we caught you it's a fake bomb, you tried to blow it up, you're going to jail for life. I mean it's well known that's the way it happens in the US and I think there's been recent exposure about the same thing being done by MI5. But, that's one thing in the sense of, that's got a start and an end. And they know they're just going to use this to bolster they're basically the threat of terrorism. But these guys, it's a closed situation, you know, they know they're going to expose them and they know they're going to take them to jail and... But there's something maybe different with these guys, like Emwazi and Jihadi John etc. who go on to actually carry out terror attacks or then, you know, or act like Jihadi John as a spokesperson for Isis.

Jon: We don't know that Emwazi's done anything, and we don't know that Bary's done anything.

Joe: Right.

Jon: So we shouldn't, you know... I know exactly your point you're making there, and I totally agree with you. There's no doubt that that's the process that's been happening. You can't have a war without an enemy. And we're going to have an enemy and it's, you know, this is the process that's clearly happening. I think your question is, is how some of these somewhat intelligent people falling for it or how they get in at such a young age...

Joe: Yeah... Sort of but maybe not, it's like how do they handle them in the sense of, you know, how do they get them to, there's more manipulation involved and its more covert and its more ongoing. I mean getting someone to, to actually, you know at least appear to carry out a terror attack. Maybe it's not that much different but there just seems to be something different in the sense of they're not arresting these guys and putting them in jail. I mean they haven't just set up Emwazi or Bary, they haven't just set them up, taken them to court and put them in jail as terrorists. They're being used.

Jon: Why would they, but that would be self defeating.

Joe: Right. So they're in a slightly different category you know.

Jon: Well look, another example is, you know, someone like Jihadi Jane which is going back a few years now, she was actually an American. She's just a (drug idled?) kind of idiot, you know, and the process that you described earlier on where you know, it's sort of like, look you know, you can either do xy and z for us or you can spend ten or fifteen years in a kind of, you know, slammer in Louisiana. Which one do you want to pick, you know. There's that simple process going on I think. Then we got a family type process which is much darker I think and much, I'm leaning more towards this now, that, it's very very kind of hard to put into words. But let's look, let's just look at Emwazi and the facts behind Emwazi, and maybe together we can try and come to some form of, I guess, speculative conclusions. He's sixteen okay. When the mainstream media ie; our intelligence services, because they're the same thing obviously, they are the same thing, no matter what people say. The mainstream media slash the intelligence services say he's contacting (a terrorist cell?) involved in twenty one oh seven. The twenty one oh seven guys okay, two of them have no fixed address. So, you work it out, they're losers. Okay, I mean not saying that anyone whose homeless is a loser by any stretch of the imagination, but they're not, you know, they're not cashed up in the, you know, these are pretty desperate people that probably, some of them are illegal immigrants, they're probably off their minds on some drugs. One of them was actually involved in drug importation. We know that Linsey was involved in drug importation as a very young individual as a sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year old, the guy's got an importation charge.

You know, Linsey on the original seven seven. So there is pattern there where you're getting very, as you pointed out, very venerable people at a very young age. And, putting them through the conduit like that. Amwazi doesn't quite fit into that because he goes to, you know, the guy goes to Westminster University. He does, you know, pretty well in his, I think he gets a two one, he does his computing science degree, all the rest of it. And, one area I think of, one way that possibly intelligence services have been targeting this particular area of London is definitely through gang culture. And I've touched upon this in the Abdel Bary thing and most specifically in the Samantha Lewthwaite video. There has been, without any shadow of a doubt, an organized effort to recruit and to condition, and the Lee Rigby thing has got a big background of gang culture. They had, you know, they've got specific people there trying to get into gang culture. I don't know how they're doing this, I would of, of thought through some possibly through social services somehow. And or through, probably more likely the police, you know. But getting people who like to put in a baseball cap (inaudible), because the thing about Amwazi is, he's supposed to have gone out as a sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year old and beating the crap out of people in Belgravia, in Central London which is quite a posh area and you know, the usual sort of stuff "I'll have your phone" ladida ladidi. And I think that is a possible conduit, a way in, you know, a window there.

So, you know, it's probably a panoply of ways in. You've got sort of effectively very vulnerable people, drugs, homelessness, illegal immigrants, gang members, but the percentage who are actually full on radical Muslims who really would go out and pick AK's and start popping people in a foreign land, in my opinion are very small. Someone like Samantha Lewthwaite I think is what I would call the old school methodology, where you've got maybe family network, military ties, and it's just a question - Samantha you're a smart lady, here's 50K get on of it. You know that story that the original, the point that you made, I think what we're looking at possibly is kind of like, if you look at your right hand, you're looking at five, four or five different kind of highly effective ways that they've created over the last say what, probably since, possibly going back to Northern Ireland you know. I mean you can't say exactly how long this has been going on, but at least twenty five, thirty years. And by now I would imagine they have it perfected.

Joe: Jon, can I just, we have a call on the line, I just want to take it before we go on to long... Okay Greg from Tennessee?

Greg: Hey, how are you doing?

Joe: Hey how you doing.

Greg: I'm good.

Joe: Common question...

Greg: Yeah you're show topic asked, who is Jihadi John and this is my comment. The propaganda machine, I mean are you shitting me? Jihadi John? It rhymes too much. It's like the Hollywood movie John Qeue. Wake the hell up people. G.I. Jane Hollywood BS. I can't even believe you people are even talking about this, and attempting to be intellectual about it. Wake the hell up.

Joe: That's a simple answer then?

Greg: No it's not a simple answer. What I'm telling you is this, if we as people even accept the word Jihadi John as even, something in the realm of having the validity of a conversation, we're idiots. JJ, Jihadi John, come on people. Are we, are we that stupid, please...

Joe: Well admittedly, we're planning on that a little bit you know.

Greg: I'm not attacking you on the show, I'm not attacking your guest. What I'm saying is, Jihadi John it rhymes too much dammit. (Laughter in background) Please...

Niall: Jon have you got an answer?

Jon: Yeah I mean I tell you, so what's the guy's name in Tennessee?

Joe and Niall: Greg

Jon: Greg, love Tennessee by the way. Greg, listen, you've got to understand Greg is, is the problem we've got here is a lot of people in...

Jon: Is he gone?

Joe: No go ahead. I just muted (inaudible)...

Jon: A lot of people who do need to lose papers, who do watch television and are plugged in, and unless we try and effectively show them abcd and show them some form of links, they're probably going to hang up the phone and call us conspiracy weirdoes. That's the end of it, unless we can come up with some sort of real factual information and real analysis on this, and actually show people, we're not going to wake them up. And yeah you're right, it is kind of ridiculous that, you know, they got the Beatles, Jihadi John, Jihadi George, Jihadi Jane, and it makes a great copy and I'm sure it sells a lot of copies of the New York Post and the London Daily Mail, and all the rest of that stuff. There's still the vast percentage of this, unfortunately, planet haven't woken up and show no signs of waking up so, unless we as individuals actually try and engage as you would say those people slash sheeple, then we're not really change that much. And it's very easy then, for them to come back to us and say; " hey listen, look I told you, you haven't got anything, you've got no information, you've got no facts, you haven't done any research, you don't know what you're talking about, in fact you're idiots". And they'll go back to listening to the nine o'clock news narrative.

Joe: Yeah let me just go back to Greg here. Greg you heard what Jon just said, I mean, Greg I'm sure there's people in your community or even in your family or friends that are buying the Jihadi John thing right?

Greg: No, I'll be honest with you. The word Jihadi John just makes me sick to my stomach. It's propaganda. I know that what you're saying, you've guys understand that, and I love (the gentleman ) just said, we use discernment but... The thing is, and this is a complete a side. I hear a really awesome Irish accent, by the way, from the gentleman who was just speaking. It has nothing to do with nothing but, I just think it's amazing, but anyway the bottom line is this, here's the thing. We were fed this Osama Bin Laden, and I'm not going to go there, and he suddenly was just killed. And then he was given this, like this water burial death which is totally contrary to his supposed religion, all I'm saying is, we need to wake up. This is all I'm saying and I've called in a couple of weeks ago and I sort of (best?) on you guys, but then I sort of throttled back and you guys were like; "okay look, it's cool, call in whatever". These words Jihadi John, it's pure bull shit, it's propaganda. And we need to understand what that means, and I'm not degrading what you're saying but, when I listen for like thirty minutes and I don't hear any real something that makes me go "why do I believe what I believe". "Why is it that I'm thinking the way I'm thinking", it just, it sort of pushes me, not saying you push me, I push me to do what I do and say what I say. It frustrates me to hear the word Jihadi John, it's complete propaganda, and all I'm telling you with this, is that if you're going to come on this radio show and use this platform, you have a responsibility to let people know that the word Jihadi John is complete bull shit. And you need to tell people that, and explain to them...

Joe: Yeah we're...

Greg: Just bull shit...

Joe: Well we have got there, I think we're saying that as we're talking around it we're definitely saying that this is all bull shit. But we're building a case here you know. We would like to just be able to say, you know everybody Jihadi John- complete and utter bull shit and have it done, over, right next one. Osama Bin Ladan- complete and utter bull shit, you know, war on terror - horse shit. And just one word answers and everybody would accept it? But unfortunately that's not the way, and as Jon our guest was just saying, you got to try and build a case that makes sense. And we want to know as well. Okay, we know Jihadi John is bull shit but we want to get into the details to figure out how these people put this bull shit together and make it so convincing for so many people. And listen closely, Jihadi John is obviously intrinsically link with these videos, these beheading videos. He's the guy standing in the beheading videos. And this has scared the crap out of people, you know what I mean? This is scared the crap out of people all around the world because of these videos that this guy has done. And if he's called Jihadi John, he cuts the head off people, you know.

Greg: Let me ask you a question, this one will cut to the absolute chase, do you believe that Jihadi John is actually a person?

Joe: Well... There's a guy standing in the video talking and waving a knife so that guy's real I presume.

Greg: Alright you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that Jihadi John is an actual human being?

Joe: Jihadi John as he's being portrayed? No, portrayed no.

Greg: You didn't answer my question. Do you believe that Jihadi John is an actual individual?

Joe: I don't believe there's anybody called Jihadi John, no.

Niall: No. Jon Ryman is our guest, had said first that when we opened this show he explained that it's all theatre. And we're working with that as a basis. So that right there cuts to your point that it's propaganda and it's horse shit.

Greg: Thank you, so what I'm saying is, the word Jihadi John is propaganda. It's not a human being right?

Niall: No.

Greg: Good, and the thing that bothers me is that you hesitated when you answered the question. It was like it bothered you. (several people talking at once) I don't know you

Joe: It depends what you mean Greg, you know is Jihadi John a person. There's a guy called Jihadi John who appears in a video, that (inaudible) guy in the video is obviously a real person, but is he called Jihadi John by his friends and family? No, probably not, nobody's called Jihadi John. As you said it's catchy phrase to scare people, right? It's like the boogey man, you know? But there's clearly people involved in this...

Greg: Not the video that you saw, what I'm asking you is, is you as human being, an individual, talking to people globally on a radio, do you believe that there is a person that exists called Jihadi John?

Joe: No.

Greg: Thank you. It took you about two minutes to say that. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Joe: (chuckling) Alright guy we're going to let you go.

Niall: It's been fun talking to you. (all saying their goodbye's)

Greg: I'm a son of a bitch, but you know what? I want you to think, and I want to push you to the point where you say, what the hell am I talking about and why am I talking about it. Thank you so much for opening the mic, I absolutely respect the fact that you opened the mic, thank you so much.

Joe: No problem, thanks... Jon are you there?

Jon: I'm here.

Joe: Well there you go, you just got a lesson in not believing in, well obviously I think Greg was missing the point really, of what we were talking about you know.

Jon: Well, Greg's from Tennessee and they don't, you know, they don't really take much bull shit in Tennessee.

Joe: Right.

Jon: Yeah. To know what I mean, if Greg if you're still listening, what I would say is I think the question you're really asking is, is Jihadi John CGI kind of mock-up that's made up of three or four people in a green room somewhere in Turkey, surrounded with a different person. Well, I personally believe that yeah there is one individual actor, or in those specific videos, but you shouldn't confuse the person in the videos with the Jihadi John character. And to give you an example, I put on, you know, a big black suit and I hold a knife and we cut off the bit where I cut your head off, and next week I do another one, and next week I do another one, and another one. So yeah I do believe there is one individual portrayed in those videos. Do I think that Jihadi John is a real character on Syrian battlefields with Isis and leading, you know, a group of ten or twenty hard core international fighters? The answer is no.

Joe: Yeah, I think maybe a good analogy would be that to ask someone, you know, do you believe that James Bond exists.

Jon: Well yeah. I mean he does exist in one sense, yeah.

Joe: Well, you've seen him on the TV screen, but there's a character behind him. I mean whatever his name is, Daniel Craig, he's the guy who plays James Bond. So do you believe that Jihadi John exists? No, it's a character name, it's a screen name, and there's a guy behind it who has his own name who plays Jihadi John. So it's a lot like theatre like we've been saying, it's a movie...

Jon: (inaudible) even a fiction or reality, yes. Do you believe in the reality, no.

Joe: Right, I mean that's a good analogy because this guy is obviously making videos to scare people, you know. So he is a character on the screen.

Jon: Maybe we should talk about the actual videos themselves and, you know, I'd like to talk a little bit about, you know, the intelligence services influence quite quickly on Emwazi, because if we are trying to build a case then we should build it pretty rapidly I think. Or else you might get someone else from Tennessee calling in. Yeah?

Niall: Yeah, just to clarify before you doing it, that this Emwazi and prior to that, the Barry guy...

Jon: Yeah...

Niall: These are, listeners, these are two real people out in the world...

Jon: Right.

Niall: ...who have been "attached" to the character, the persona called Jihadi John, and they very probably are not in any way connected.

Joe: Right, because this guy Mohammed Emwazi who has been in the past two months, has been more or less definitively called the guy behind Jihadi John. We don't know that's the case, he's been, he may be being defamed and we don't even know where he is. But, they need to, they tried to find, I mean they didn't find Emwazi. Supposedly Jihadi John, the guy in the videos, I'm sorry for saying Jihadi John Greg but you know we have to describe, the guy in the videos who's cutting off hostage's heads, this guy is you know, the world's most wanted man supposedly, right? And everybody's out to get him and the British government is like: "we have to get this guy and blah blah blah blah". And now they've actually identified a British National who they say is this guy. And his name is Mohammed Emwazi, but where he is we don't know. He may be in Syria, that's what they say. Go ahead Jon.

Jon: Well okay, look, let's get a little bit of, Mohammed Emwazi the real person is a real person, let's just go back to who Mohammed Emwazi actually is, and how he, he's linked into the intelligence services and the whole umbrella that is this theatre. Okay, start's off, I'll say it, shit hits the fan for him in 2009, okay. He's finished university and as supposedly as a present, from his father, which is a bit of an odd present, he get's given a, you know, flights and enough cash to go on safari in Africa. Now I don't know about you, that's a little weird anyway, you know, no one ever gave me a safari ticket, I wish they did. But anyway, so two other buddies come with him. Now the two buddies that come with him, one is a German called Marcel Shlodel and the other guy is called Alli Adoras. They get on a plane, now this is where a next red flag comes up, don't forget he's already at this point according to the mainstream media slash intelligence services, he is already totally radicalized, totally, you know, down with the plot. You know, he's totally been radicalized, already. He gets on a (carry on flight?).

When he arrives in Tanzania which is in East Africa for our listeners, all completely wasted. They've been drinking for like the entire flight, ten to twelve hours. Now, already, we're already beginning to sound like someone else we know, yeah that's right, Mohammed Atta, he likes to drink and certain other substances as well. So they're completely wasted. We know they're all completely wasted because there's loads of witnesses, there's loads of people in the airport saying there was shouting, abusing every, you know, foul language the whole lot, barely stand up, and low and behold they get denied entry. They get denied entry by the Tanzanian authorities, not because someone from London picks up the phone and says "hey, by the way we got three terrorists that we've been watching for I guess four or five years, maybe you shouldn't let them in", "because if you let in they might go see Samantha Lewthwaite who's just down the corner", yeah? And that's apparently what he was supposed to have been doing, he was supposed to, according to the mainstream media, going to Tanzania. The safari thing is a cover story because he wants to link up with Al Shabab. Al Shabab are the bad guys in East Africa, and with Samantha Lewthwaite the white widow, as the poster girl, okay? So, he's wasted, the people in the airport, the authorities, you know I've got documents in the video where you can see this, deny him entry.

They deny him entry not because he's a wanted terrorist but because he's absolutely plastered. Then he gets flown back, he doesn't get flown back though, to the UK, no. He gets flown back to the Netherlands which is in Europe, which is a little bit odd in itself, like just deport them back to where they came from. That's the standard procedure, when you get deported you go back to the last place you came from. In this case it would have been London, flies from London to Tanzania, send him back to London, no. He gets sent to the Netherlands and this is where it gets a little freaky because according to Mohammed Emwazi, it's at this point where he gets leant on, very very heavily by the intelligence services, and the police and a bunch of other people, to effectively work for MI5. And he get's asks a lot of questions like; what do you think of seven seven, what do you think of nine eleven, what do you think of the Jews, blah blah blah blah blah. And his response is; Jews, that's their trip, they can have their religion it's got nothing to do with me it's their private business. Nine eleven, he says that was a terrible thing, those people shouldn't have died they were innocent. Seven seven, he says the same thing, the terrible thing shouldn't of happened. So (effectively?) he says to the intelligence services, look I'm not interested, I just want to go on a safari with my two buddies. It's a little weird because according to mainstream media and according to the news papers, just where a lot of this information is coming from, the two buddies are known terrorists, or radicals, okay. One of them is now actually serving time in Ethiopia where he was tortured. That doesn't mean he is a terrorist, it just means he's in Ethiopia, got tortured, he's in doing a four year sentence. And I won't go into the buddies because hey, we'll be here all night.

Effectively though, when he gets to Tanzania that's where he's supposed to have been, you know, try to be turned. And his life, to use more naughty words, turns to shit at this point. This is where he gets followed, harassed. The intelligence services go to a future wife, or you know, his fiancé and say to his fiancé; "look the guy is a nasty piece of work, you know, I don't think you should hang out with this guy". She breaks off the marriage. This doesn't happen once, this happens twice. So he loses two wives, he loses two prospective wives because the intelligence services are on the phone to the families. When he gets back to London he's getting pissed off, he goes to Kuwait. And he, when he's in London he gets some qualifications, he goes to Kuwait, he hangs out there.

Niall: He's really from Kuwait right?

Jon: Exactly, he's born in Kuwait, his father's a policeman. He's an immigrant from Kuwait, the whole family are. And they go to London because of the Iraqi war. When shit's hitting the fan in Iraq...

Joe: Ninety one...

Jon: Exactly, gulf war one, they bail out and they bail out to London. Okay? So, going back to the narrative, he goes to Kuwait. In Kuwait he does I.T. work because don't forget he's got pretty good qualifications. He's a smart dude. When he's in Kuwait, same thing you know, he gets a bit home sick, he's goes back to London. So, it's a little bit complicated but let's just say he's travelling from Kuwait to London. When he's back in London something happens, except this time it's even more hard core. He's meeting agents, field agents, MI5 field agents are approaching him more or less in the street. And you're thinking; "well how does that work?" Well, this is how it works. I want to sell my laptop, sell my laptop to you, except you are an MI5 agent. And then you, in the process of the transaction, introduce yourself and stop pressurizing me. So he's getting really intense, according to him, really intense pressure, probably as hard core pressure as you can possibly get...

Joe: Right. It's the kind of scenario where he's feeling like he's under, this is over a period of years where he's feeling he's being harassed and pressured and followed and spied on and all this kind of stuff.

Jon: He threatens to take an over dose.

Joe: And really, he's changes his name because he thinks; "oh, well if I change my name, surely I'll be able to you know, skip town go to Kuwait, hang out, go ladi da, possibly even get married". And that doesn't work either. Kuwait authorities say no no no, you're not coming in. This time, the Kuwaiti authorities say you're not coming in because London says you're not coming in, because you are in fact a terrorist. So now I guess by now he's semi suicidal, pretty probably nuts I would have thought, incredibly paranoid and at this point is where he disappears in 2013. He disappears. Now you're thinking well hang on, he's been followed, watched so heavily, that he's got field agents coming up to him more or less on the street. He's been that heavily watched but he's allowed to disappear, and where does he disappear to? How did he disappear? Well, then we've got another red flag, in that whole process there how did he manage to skip town so easily. He can't get on a plane, don't forget. Can't get on a plane because when you're on the "no fly list", you know, you don't go anywhere.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: Can't get on a plane. There's only one way out of the United Kingdom, effectively, if your you know, that heavily watched you've got to sort of smuggle yourself out. So the spin of the mainstream media put forward is, he jumps on the back of a truck and he manages to do the whole kind of illegal immigrant thing in reverse. So you know, instead of actually trying to get into the United Kingdom through the back of a truck, he's going out of the United Kingdom on the back of a truck and he disappears in 2013, and that's the last time, you know, family and all the rest of them see him. The family sort of get up and say well we thought he was in Turkey doing some humanitarian work. And two years later, the guy's Jihadi John. So that's a very condensed story of what happens, now. Got to say one more thing very quickly, like okay that's fine but maybe he just made up all this BS about him being followed and you know, maybe it's all just a cover story. Maybe, look he is a genuine radical and maybe he just made this all up. Well the problem with all of this is, he made this up five years ago. It's in sort of, 2009, 2010 that he starts reporting his problems.

Now, this is where it gets freaky, because he writes to the independent police complaints commission, which in the United Kingdom is the main authority where you're supposed to go to say; "hey, I've got the crap beating up by some intelligence officer in an airport in a closed room where no one did anything". And you know; "I got seriously beaten". Those are the kind of dudes you're supposed to go and speak to. So there's all the records, this is all you know, you can go and get these records, yeah he did say this. Where it gets even freakier is he starts writing to the news papers. Yeah that's right, he's writing to the news papers four or five ago saying; "hey look, this is what's going on". None of it got printed of course, but now that he's Jihadi John you see, the guy he wrote to is like; "oh yeah, he wrote to me", no big deal, no problem. So that's for me another big flag. And the organization where you can, let me think how the best way to say this, CAGE, C.A.G.E. is an organization run by an ex-Guantanamo inmate who was severely tortured and beaten...

Joe: Wazan Bagan?

Jon: Yeah, Begg, basically Moazzam Begg, his name is Moazzam Begg. He got severely tortured and beaten, fact, he wasn't accused of any crimes, fact. He tried to release Alan Henning who was one of the people Jihadi John had supposed to have cut the head off, well he did cut the head off if you believe the stories and you believe about that there is a real Jihadi John, blah blah blah. This guy Begg, Moazzam Begg, who Jihadi John writes to and he's in contact with, he puts the record button down on the phone call and now we have the audio records of Emwazi saying "I've been harassed for the last five six years, pressurized to the point of suicide, by the intelligence services". So which story are you going to believe? Are you going to believe that somehow this guy made this all up over the course of four or five years, knowing that in 2015 that he was going to skip town and become Jihadi John? Bullshit. No, he was getting harassed, no doubt about it.

Joe: Well just in terms of what people believe, I would point kind of gently to the kind of nature of the people that we're talking about here in the British establishment. I mean it's been all over the papers for the past few years that the pedophile scandal, the high level pedophile scandal among the rich and famous and the politicians in the UK, and there's been a lot of evidence that points to the fact that, you know, British intelligence have been directly involved in covering this up. So you're talking about the abuse and some cases the murder, as far as we know, of children by high level political pedophiles and it's being covered by agencies like MI5. That's their credentials so when you ask yourself, who do I believe here, just understand who you're dealing with, you know.

Jon: Well now you've actually stumbled, unwittingly, into the real story behind some of this. Because, you'll notice that the Jihadi John story always pops up on the front page just at the same time with someone like Leon Briten or Cyril Smith, or very very high level politicians are about to get busted from murdering and buggering little children. It's always the same time, always always always, okay? And there's some sort of, there's some correlation that is, always kind of seems to me to lead back to some very very dark covering. So it's like, we'll put this theatre up, we'll put the show on, when we really really have to have a show. And they really need a show right now because they're in real trouble with some of this stuff and it's going to be, I think in my personal opinion, it's not long before a member of the royal family gets implicated in this. And when that happens I don't know what's going to happen.

Niall: Umm, Andrew?

Joe: Well Andrew wasn't involved directly and...

Jon: Specifically Andrew, yeah.

Joe: Yeah, I mean one of the things you mentioned, "CAGE" you know, this group CAGE which is, you know its CAGE Prisioners their web site, and they, its run by or started by this guy Mouazzam Begg who was a Guantanamo inmate, completely innocent, tortured, held in Guantanamo like most all the people in Guantanamo, completely innocent and tortured for years. And he comes back and starts this organization to defend the rights of, in part, to lobby for the rights of people of Guantanamo. But they're also taking on people from the UK who are accused of being terrorists, and are being entrapped in the same way that people are entrapped and ended up in Guantanamo.

And, I've watched some mainstream media interviews of representatives from CAGE, and when they make this case which is, kind of the case that we've been making here is that, if this guy Emwazi, Mohammed Emwazi, is the guy that they're calling Jihadi John, then they say, okay, so he was harassed by the intelligence services. They tried to get him to be an informant etc. and they were kind of on his case pretty hard. But, how do you then, kind of, transfer that to him becoming this cut throat, blood thirsty, head chopper on videos. You know? Particularly the case when you have people who say, people who knew, who knew, Emwazi, said that he was a really nice guy. How did he, he's a really nice guy, he gets harassed by the intelligence agency and that turns him into a killer?

Jon: Well he's, I mean, yeah I see your point and it, it doesn't make logical sense. But for me, the answer is this, he's dead.

Joe: Enwazi's dead?

Jon: Yeah? He was probably killed about a year ago, 18 months ago, 6 months ago, doesn't matter. He's dead.

Joe: Right.

Jon: And whoever you got there, do you see what I mean? They had a guy, guy wasn't, you know, wasn't, wasn't partial, the disappearing act, you know, that well, he yeah, he disappeared alright.

Joe: Yeah, so he disappears but he still is technically alive because no one knows he's dead so he can be transposed down to Jihadi John.

Jon: The simplest answer. It starts from the correct answer, the simplest answer is he is dead.

Joe: Well, that's Osama Bin Laden, right? That they did the same thing with him.

Jon: Exactly, and it's the same with the seven seven bombers. They never got the train.

Joe: Right.

Jon: They're dead. They couldn't have got on that train. There's no way that they got on that train, there's no way that the bombs he was supposed to put on that train could have done damage, its plastic explosives.

Joe: Right. It's military grade. Yeah.

Jon: Yes, so, like, then you've got to produce a body later to say, well yeah they were on the train. So that means they just topped them.

Joe: Right. I think that is generally a way that these kind of intelligence operations are run and this is the kind of, you talked about things being dark. We're in a very dark area here, probing into a very dark area, of, of the way the kind of powers that be in this world operate and their nature is very dark and that is generally, my understanding anyway, is the way that these kind of false flag or phony terrorists operations are run. There's patsies selected in advance, they're groomed, they're, they're sheep dipped, they're put in certain places, there's a narrative and history set up for them, they're moved around and then they're used, they're expended, ie: they're killed and real operatives actual military, you know, military trained people carry out the attacks, not in every case but in several cases I think this is the way it happens. And, and, the patsies that have been killed are held up to the media to take the fall.

Jon: Exactly, and its, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. I mean, it doesn't make any sense otherwise. If you think about where the videos have actually come from, from, you know, the "SITE" intelligence group which is a very, very dark and nefarious organization that are people who introduce the later Bin Laden videos. Much later. And they're the people who have introduced Jihadi John, the old Jihadi John, Abdel Bary who's now Jihadi George, I hope we're not confusing people, and the new Jihadi John, Emwazi. It's effectively a Mossad operation, it's run by the daughter... The person who runs "SITE", which is an international private intelligence gathering group that has funding from, you know, the usual sources, CIA, Pentagon, Washington. Her father was executed by Sadam Hussein, for spying for Mossad. So we can probably assume that she's not exactly you know, pro Islamic militancy. She's working for Mossad in my opinion, without any shadow of a doubt. And these videos are pretty hand fisted you know, they're, what happens, well we don't get to see the actual execution. We get to see the cheap shots, with the knife and the struggling, with some people with some very dodgy backgrounds - Foley, CIA probably, you know, 'John can't lie', whoever the hell that is. 'John can't lie' is you know, you've got Pinocchio torturing him, it's all just very...

Joe: Right. This is latest, the most recent British hostage held by Isis, and he's been on some videos. He hasn't been killed yet but he's been on videos over the past six or seven months. His name is John, he calls himself Cantley but it's spelled 'can't lie', John Can't Lie that's his name. He's an aid worker or something and he's caught by Isis, and he appears in these videos and he's actually scripted, someone scripted for him, very well scripted video kind of presentations where he makes a kind of a case, a political case for Isis. But he's speaking in the first person, he's done about four of these videos, you can watch them on the web, where he makes this political case like Isis is a political case. It's not so much, it's not a Jihadi rant at all, it's very very well kind of thought out and well presented, and it goes into the strategy and the kind of propaganda they want to present them... To be honest it's scarily similar to the kind of things that some kind of a anti, British anti American imperial kind of web sites or people, writers would say. It's similar to the things they would say...

Niall: I think that's what they want to associate, extremism with...

Joe: ...They want to associate with people who rationalize discourse who disagree with the geopolitics of the situation. But this John guy, John Can't Lie, this is what Jon's just talking about, he apparently was, he's in captivity, in Isis captivity in Syria in a prison. I mean he's with some of the other hostages that were beheaded, but he said that one of the people that interrogate him or one of his jailers is a guy called Pinocchio. Because supposedly they named him that because he tells lies all the time, you know, his nose grows like Pinocchio, he lies. And so you have a guy called John Can't Lie being interrogated by Pinocchio, who tells lies all the time, and John Can't Lie. It's just, it's one of those bazaar weird things that you just kind of go wow, whatever, anyway, and move on you know. But yeah...

Niall: I think they, whoever does this has fun, I mean , I think you would lose it for that in your video Jon, but it must be an in joke or something.

Jon: It is some kind of twisted in joke. And the really weird thing is, is there's only, it's only probably us and the people who make the video, that are going to laugh. The rest of it, that is the joke. You know what I mean? It's like the joke is that it's only about 2 percent, 1 percent, of the people that are actually observing this stuff, that get the joke. And that is the joke.

Niall: Yeah. This a, but, SITE intelligence, I mean, the way in which they find these videos is very bizarre. And you have a clip of Rita Katz being interviewed on American mainstream news, being asked, "how exactly do you come across these videos?" And she gives some very very dubious answers.

Joe: Yeah.

Jon: It's a none answer. Her answer, she gets off how she fights this, don't forget, you wouldn't want to be on mainstream media if you were Katz, you know, it's not really a great idea. Apparently she had a false nose on in that video...

Joe: Really?

Jon: Yeah, apparently, which is again weird, remember Pinocchio the nose?

Joe: Yeah.

Niall: Yeah. (a bit of laughter)

Jon: You think I'm making that up? I'm not. Go Google it, she had a false nose on. She doesn't want to be identified fully, which is just so ridiculously insane. It's like, you know, Samantha Lewthwaite in Ukraine, you can't make this stuff up. But yeah, I mean, she, look you've got this huge 1984 sort of surveillance fascist monster, you know, on both sides of the Atlantic. But we have to use a private organization and pay them a two and a half thousand dollar subscription so we can access that information. What the hell, you know, the Pentagon have got, you know, spy satellites that could, observe, you know, a postage stamp on the sidewalk. Why are we going to this woman? I think it's, you know, to divert, just to sort of move it further off stage, so you know, rather than being right in the front of the stage it's just a little bit of, move it further across so people can't quite, you know, they say oh well you know it's, they're just somehow done their homework and it's not, you know, some bullshit story that has been cooked up by some insane, you know, colonel or something in...

Niall: In the Pentagon?

Jon: Yeah, I mean it's, she just says look, we looked and we found it. So it's a non answer, you know,it's like what, I mean you Googled it? I mean what is... I can't argue with that and you know, I was trying to get to the story behind the story and that to me is an obvious thing. Look, it's somewhere in Turkey, they got an actor, these people are CIA UK intelligence services, and that's all bullshit. Ok fine, and probably 90% of our listeners can deal with. But there's like always always always another sort of level back that's the real meat. And one thing I think we should touch upon, is how Jihadi John is being identified, or how has he been identified and why is it important how he's identified. Well what's the technology, that's identifying? You know the stories in the paper where, oh yeah well we've got, you know, biometric analysis and we can analyze the face and we can substantiate who he is from that, and we've got CIA mock-ups of what he might look like and what he might not look like. What that really is doing is the real... (temporarily lost contact)...

Joe: Yeah, sorry we lost you there for a minute Jon...

Jon: Yeah, sorry. I think you got to look at some of the biometric, and kind of facial recognition. The way that this has been slowly, sort of pushed out to the public, like this might be a great thing. It might be a cool thing to have everyone be identified in, you know, a millisecond via facial recognition and by voice recognition, by biometrics. And that to me is, there's something there in the background there that's been pushed forward a little bit hard because, I mean, the classic writer in all of this of course Orwell. And 1984 is really saying there's only one war, all the rest are theatre, the real war is directed against you. The real war is the state verses you. And everything else is all bullshit and theatre. And the real war is getting all of us, you know, identified, tracked, continual surveillance via biometrics, satellites, biometrics, voice recognition. That's something that's not happening yesterday, it's something that's happening right now. This is the next step, you know, it's what's going to happen. You know, you go into MacDonald's and rather than flashing your credit card, you walk to the door and they would know who you are, they would know what your credit is in your account, you walk up to a counter and there's nobody there because it's all robotic. You know this is the kind of future where, that they want, and where nobody works, and everything is tracked. I was only doing some research last night about, you know, the new Samsung Smart TVs. The new Samsung Smart TVs record everything in your room, whether the TV is on off or whatever. It's a continual process, an invasion, and that's really been the story behind the war terror. There's been no other story, this story is just complete obliteration of whatever rights that you had.

Joe: Yeah, I mean that's a good question, maybe that's something to touch on before we... I think we might wrap it up soon, but just in terms of the whole, oh he's gone again... (lost contact with Jon) I think we lost him again... Well what I was going to say was... alright you're back again... I was going to say that's a good question that what the whole point of this theatre, assuming it is theatre, and that none of it is really real, that most of it manufactured for people, I mean some people would say that it's manufactured for Western audiences, I'd say to get them to at least be, you know to agree to increased militarisation and... But in particular for the Middle East let's say and for around the world, the war on terror was posited as a global war on terror that... And that's obviously a carte blanche for military, the British military and European and American military to go around the world and invade and bomb any country they want under the name of "the war on terror". So that's a, that seems to me to be a good explanation as to why there is all this theatre, why they need to scare people. But you're saying that it may be something more in the sense that there's, there's that maybe, but it may also be, in terms of control of the people back home for some other reason that's not necessarily imperial in nature.

Jon: Absolutely, I mean, yeah, I mean there's no, look, a lot of people say it was about ring fencing existing resourses that are available in the Middle East. And to be honest with you we kind of achieved that quite some time ago, I mean Saudi Arabia - client state, Israel - client state, Syria - about to go. Most of the North African countries, already gone. Who else has got oil, while they're struggling?

Niall: Yemen.

Jon: Yeah, East Africa. I mean where ever there's resources, let's be totally honest, we've kind of already got locked down. That's not too difficult to do when you've got a couple of daisy cutters and, you know, a huge army. But I think the real story, is a little bit further in the future, it's probably about maybe ten, fifteen years in the future, and that's going to be... Well you can see it happening now, I mean another thing I touched on in my videos is the whole anonymous thing, whatever you may think of anonymous, they are an organized form of protest and for anyone, I guess, to be involved in. All you really need is a computer and that's about it. And they are attacking, I guess what we call it, you know, the establishment. And I think the Jihadi John story, the efforts to link Jihadi John number one, which is Abdel Bary to anonymous, was very clever because it tried to tie in a whole disparate or, a whole range of opposition groups into one little BS story. You know don't forget because Abdel Bary is supposed to hang out with anonymous, supposed to hang out with hacktavists, you know and, are there Isis fighters who are ex anonymous you know? I mean, because they're always doing cyber attacks, you know, don't forget that. It's very interesting that only very recently there's been quite a lot of serious protests. Not just on the computer screen but actually on the street you know. And I've got a very good hunch that if I was working for the intelligence services, I'd be pretty worried about that. I'd be pretty dammed scared. And you know, it's not all about Russell Brand's of the world and you know, it's kind of like Joe Blogs down the road who's just got a computer and he's broke and he's fed up, you know, I mean that's the kind of thing that you really need to worry about when ten (thousand?) in Central London on a Friday.

Joe: Right Jon, I think we're going to let you go, leave it there. But listen, thanks a million for coming on and sharing your...

Jon: Not much...

Joe: There's not much what?

Jon: Well there's not much that wasn't in 1984 really. I mean if you read 1984, it is a blueprint and there's not much really that's happening now that wasn't detailed in that book in 1948.

Joe: I think it's worse to be honest...

Jon: Look, one minute we're friends with Isis...

Joe: Pardon me?

Jon: Well you may be right. But I mean the idea of, when Orwell's talking about how one minute you got big, you know, Oceana and Eurasia, of a huge (blocks?), well that's pretty much happened and, one minute we're fighting Isis, the next minute we're friends with them. And then we're going to erase the fact that we're friends with them. It's all happened, you know, surveillance in the home, an out of control police state, constant revisionism, everything has happened. There's no indication to me that the entire book, horrific as it is, isn't going to happen. And don't forget the whole idea of, you know, the class divisions. Very strict class divisions. You're constantly reading the paper, dumb down schools, dumb down schools. How many people actually give a damn about this story? Not many, one percent, two percent, half a percent? The other 98% are going to carry on reading the Daily Express, carry on reading The Sun, carry on watching the BBC, carry on watching CNN, carry on paying their taxes, so you know, there's not much in it that isn't, that hasn't actually already been detailed in 1984. Which is horrific, really, when you think about it because it's a very frightening book.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Alright Jon, we're going to let you go.

Jon: Yeah.

Joe: Well thanks a million for coming on and people can you out on You Tube under "Jon Ryman" and are you on Face Book as well?

Jon: Don't do Face Book, don't like Mark. Yeah, don't like Mark.

Joe: (a bit of laughter) All right, well anyway, yeah we'll be keeping a watch on what you're doing and I'm looking forward to the, your third one, your third documentary on this latest incarnation of Jihadi John, of Mohammed and...

Jon: Emwazi.

Joe: Emwazi, yeah. And the information you're pulling together on that should be very interesting, very useful, very important.

Jon: I really appreciate giving me the opportunity to come on this show you know, I really appreciate it. It's been, I would say it's been fun but you can't really call this stuff fun you know, I don't know what you'd call it...

Niall: No.

Joe: Not really, but we do it anyway because it...

Niall: It's our duty... Thank you Jon, we'll talk to you soon.

Jon: Thank you to the pair of you, goodnight.

Joe: Alright take it easy, goodnight. I think we're going to leave it there for this week folks... Thanks to Jon for being our guest and for having a chat with us. And thanks to our caller, Greg from Tennessee, always welcome Greg, and to our listeners and chatters. We will be back next week with another show, until then check out our "Health and Wellness" show on Mondays, and "The Truth Perspective" on Saturdays. See you then...

Niall: Bye bye...