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Broadcasting from deep in the heart of the American Empire, join your hosts Harrison Koehli and Elan Martin, and fellow editors, as they discuss everything from current events and the latest machinations and manipulations of the global elite to history, science, and religion, and how it all fits together.This week, we concluded our discussion of UFOs and aliens with the 'big picture', and the huge implications ufology has for every facet of human life.

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Live every Saturday from 2-4pm EST / 11am-1pm PST / 8-10pm CET.

Running Time: 01:58:00

Download: MP3

Here's the transcript of the show:

Harrison: Hello everyone and welcome back to The Truth Perspective. I'm your host for today, Harrison Koehli, as usual with my host Elan Martin.

Elan: Hello.

Harrison: Joining us again from last week, Shane LaChance.

Shane: Hello everybody.

Harrison: And joining us specially this week, she wasn't here last week - were you here last week?

Carolyn: I was here. (Laughter)

Harrison: Oh, I'm having brain problems. We have Carolyn, again, our Sott editors. I was thinking about the week before. I've got an excuse, because last week we were talking about Aliens and UFOs and the crazy stuff that goes along with them, all the different phenomena. We didn't get to conclude our discussion because there's just too much to cover on the subject in any given two hour program. But we're going to continue today and talk about everything. So by the end of today's show we will cover the extent of ...

Shane: Everything!

Harrison: Yeah, of everything.

Carolyn: And you'll understand it all.

Elan: Everything you've ever wanted to know about Aliens but were to afraid to ask.

Shane: And beyond.

Harrison: Well, maybe not much. But we're going to try and give - what we consider - the important bits of the big picture and how it all fits together. So hopefully everyone has listening to last week's show, if you haven't it's available on BlogTalkRadio (The Truth Perspective - "Do aliens eat people?" What's up with UFOs? - 20 June) so just go to our Blogtalk section on the website and listen to the archived version, to get caught up. Because we're, pretty much, just continuing on, assuming you've listened to that show. So hopefully that won't be a problem.

But to start out, we're going to talk about some crazy stuff. A couple of different phenomena that we didn't cover last week, we just briefly mentioned it and we'll start out with it; cattle mutilations. Because just like the Crop Circle phenomenon, another one we didn't talk about last week. This one just kind of cropped up in the 20th Century. There are some vague possible reports from earlier centuries but nothing too definitive or exhaustive in the historical record, it seems to have, pretty much, come out of nowhere, and there have been tons of them in the last few decades. Where farmers will find their livestock which includes primarily cows but other animals as well; dead, mutilated, and there's a lot of strange things about the cases and the carcasses. Shane, did you have a recent...

Shane: Yeah, there's one that I found from 2013, and the interesting thing about these stories is that there are these common elements that you find again and again, and this one was just so typical of these stories. It's from a local news station KSHB, in Kansas City. So it's not written by a UFO website. And this Missouri rancher, he found three cows; the first one was in December 2011. And Mitchell, the farmer, said; "She had obviously been cut on the side of her jaw; her tongue was gone, her ear was gone." She initially assumed the animal had fallen victim to strangers or it was part of some sacrificial ritual. But she made another discovery on July 9th 2012, "I looked first to see her tongue was gone, then immediately noticed the udder had been completely removed. The reproductive organs were gone too." Mitchell said. A charred mark outlining the cow's body is still visible, even today, made the death even more mysterious. And finally on July 19th, Mitchell found the third cow. She said its heart was exposed and its teats were cut off. And all three animals have their tongues cut out.

These cuts looked surgical, with clean and precise incisions. All three deaths, there was no blood, despite the animals gaping wounds.

Harrison: So these are just a few of the common characteristics of the cattle mutilations. Because when they first started, news and local police and the FBI - the FBI were called in to a big investigation at one point - they wrote them off as cult murders and renegade cattle killers. But when you look at the circumstances actually surrounding them...

Shane: Highly coordinated group of rebellious teenagers.

Carolyn: And usually another feature - this particular article didn't mention it - but there are no footprints. There's no evidence of activity around the animal or any kind of damage into the area. It's like the animal was dropped where it was and whatever was happening was happening by people on hover boards??

Elan: And the other thing is, quite often these farmers want to find out how this happened and would hire veterinarians who would look at the animals, and they have no idea what type of technology was being used to make such precise cuts. Other things that have been detailed were; the sphincters cored out, specific organs missing or like you mentioned Shane, all the blood missing. This is otherworldly.

Harrison: And just very odd, if you look at their pictures - because there are a ton of pictures of these - the precision of the cuts and just the strange parts that are removed; you'll have all the flesh removed from the lower jaw, or around the genitals, or parts of the head or ears. It's just strange to see these specific parts. They seem totally arbitrary when you look at it.

Carolyn: The other thing too, is that sometimes these discoveries would not happen for two or three days, and there's nothing like a downed animal to bring out the scavengers, and yet no coyotes would go near them, rats would not go near them. So there was no damage to the carcass other than what had been done in the initial incident. And these other creatures would avoid the area like the plague.

Harrison: Yeah so you can positively rule out scavengers or predator animals because, first of all, they couldn't have made these cuts; couldn't have isolated these organs and body parts in the way that they did and the animals avoid them, even other cattle won't go near this dead animal. So like we said, totally missing blood, no trace of blood, so where did this blood go? Where did this act of mutilation take place? There was obviously some kind of technology used - well to explain the cuts and the lack of blood; something weird was going on. If it were done right at the scene of the crime, there would have to be something really weird going on for this to be the case. Think about it, no blood, with these cuts all over the body, with missing organs; where are the organs? Where's the blood?

Shane: And these char marks too. Those are commonly found. That also suggest there's some type of technology being used, only we don't really know what it is.

Elan: On a more mundane level, all of this reminds me, a little bit, of poachers. In Africa, you have guys who kill elephants just for their tusks and they just leave the carcass there. There's this attitude of indifference, of complete apathy towards the animal, just for the value of the tusk. In Japan you have fishing boats that fish for shark; they cut their fins off and then dump the rest of the body back into the sea. So on our own level, this is assuming these cattle mutilations are happening from other beings, but there's this same sense of disregard and apathy for the animal that exists on our level as well, with elephants and sharks.

Harrison: So what are these, some kind of trophy kill? Maybe the parts taken have some value in some way. I wonder if it's something to do with the glands in these areas, and different secretions. Because if you think about genital areas and throat areas, there's a lot of glands there, and the lack of bodily fluids, so there's something strange going on there. Now, the really creepy thing - well, before we get to the creepy thing. Elan, you said we assume some kind of other being. I think it's safe to assume that no human, with the technology we know that humans have, we have could have done these things.

Shane: Well if we did have that technology, why would a scientist go out into a cow field and make these incisions and then leave the cow, leave the evidence. It's just very bizarre.

Harrison: Yeah, I know a few doctors who would be happy to get their hands on that kind of precise surgical technology for operations and things like that.

Shane: Well sure but they'd have their own lab; they wouldn't be doing it out into cow fields! (Laughter)

Harrison: So even if there are humans with this kind of technology, they're holding it back from the people that really need it and could do well with it. Well, maybe. But a lot of these cases are associated with UFOs. So farmers will see UFOs on the night of the mutilation, or the night before they find the carcass. There are even some really out there stories where you can actually see the direct connection; so a UFO and then the cow falling from the sky, something like that. Oh, one of the other things is that some of the carcasses do show bodily injuries, suggesting that they might have even fallen. So they have broken a leg as they were falling from the sky; or there are broken branches from a tree next to the carcass; so very suggestive pieces of data associated with these kinds of cases. So I think that, it's hard to say for sure to make the absolute connection, but I think it's a pretty reasonable connection to make, between UFOs and the cattle mutilation phenomenon. You can also get into reports from certain abductees who also make the connection; seeing cows on board the UFO or seeing them being taken up into a flying saucer or whatever.

Elan: I think its gets even scarier when we have reports - not as many - but of human mutilations.

Harrison: That's what I was going to get into.

Elan: It seems as though there have been many corpses that have been located, that have very similar incisions to what we've seen with these cows. So there's a connection there as well.

Carolyn: And understandably those reports will have been muted or damped down as much as possible.

Harrison: Yeah, very few people have actually looked into the human mutilation phenomenon. It has happened. It's hard to know how many times it's happened because it looks like whenever something like that does occur, it does get covered up. You can find one case, I think it was in Brazil, and you can actually see the pictures of the guy and it looks like a cattle mutilation. In the sense that the same areas of the body are removed; you can see the hole in the genital area; the stomach cavity is just depressed like certain organs were just taken out, different parts of the body were just removed, surgically. It's pretty gruesome but pretty easy to find if you just search: Human mutilation.

Shane: Don Ecker, he's written on the subject and, like you said Harrison, there are not too many people that really dig into this. Even within the UFO community this topic is shunned. So just because it's so creepy and so scary to think of what the implication of what that means; but Don Ecker, he wrote of a case in Idaho in 1979. They found a mutilated body of a young man. He was found in a wilderness area, mutilated in the same fashion that we've become so familiar with cattle. His genitals had been surgically removed, his lips had been taken off and his hair was missing. There was also a noticeable lack of blood.

Harrison: One of the things Ecker talks about in his article, I think it's called the Human Mutilation Factor, written, I think, in the early 90's. I can't remember if he was ex-law enforcement or not, but either he was or he knew someone who was. And he got them to look into cases fitting a certain set of parameters; unsolved murders with signs of mutilations. And so they looked into it, went through the files, and came back with the answer that there were no unsolved cases matching these criteria. And Ecker knew that this was false because - I can't remember the case - but there's a famous serial killer case where the victims did have these certain types of mutilation - they weren't specific enough to rule out what might be a murder - and those cases were unsolved. So right there he knew that it was false because there are mutilation murders that are unsolved. And they were told, "Ok, if you have any more questions you're going to have to come down to the station and ask in person."

Shane: So basically he was being stonewalled, to prevent him from being able to look into these cases.

Carolyn: And absolutely the police and forensics would not be trained to look for these signs or interpret them in that particular direction; they'd just say, "Crazy cult killer." and then quietly shelve it.

Harrison: So unfortunately there's not very much information on human mutilations except that it happens, because no one wants to look into it and those that do can't find anything. So kinda of a dead end, in that regard.

Elan: so much of what we are talking about in these past couple of shows, is just that most people do not have the context to assess what it is we're seeing. So most of us, I think, are going to grab onto the easiest that's explanation provided by those in authority. In order to not have to think about it too much because of, what you said earlier

Shane: what are the implications? They're just too frightening and you can just imagine folks minds just shutting off, as a defence mechanism, to even investigating it with any amount of objectivity.

Harrison: Well, the circumstances of the investigation - or the attempted investigations - remind me of David Paulides, Missing 411 Cases; because he has run into the same blockages, in official reports, in the National Parks Services, were basically withholding information about these missing cases of these people who go disappear in the National Parks in the United States. And of course the disappearances aren't just in the United States but that's primarily where he does his research. And there's some equally strange stories that he has in his books, now I won't talk about any one case in particular but there are some cases, for example, where they do find the remains of a person who had gone missing but the circumstances around they find them, they're just totally odd. Like there was a couple, one in particular where they found just certain bones, and often just fragments, and they'll all be found in the same area. And there's one case where they found this guys pants on the ground in the forest, as if he'd just taken off his pants while he was standing up and then just left them there. Now in one of the legs, was one of his leg bones, there was some of his bones in one of his socks, but then the other leg was missing and the rest of the bones were missing and I think they found some skull fragments somewhere else. And there are a few cases like that.

So how does that happen? Does a predator just pick through the jeans and just find certain bones or certain parts of the body and leave others? The scene didn't look like it was disturbed in anyway. It looked pristine, this is what happened when he died and nothing had changed since that point. So how does that happen, that you just have certain body parts that get placed in this area?

Carolyn: And inappropriately, the leg bone in the pants; bizarre.

Harrison: And the people are disappearing into thin air. You see them one second and they're gone the next, and then either you're never to find them or miles away from where they should be in the time since the disappearance. So there are some very strange aspects to those cases and I think there may a connection between them.

Elan: I think Paulides thinks so too. And in one of his talks - I think this in a video posted to some time ago - he began by saying, "Don't read my book, read this book on the Skinwalker Ranch", which was this area that had been well known for all sorts of paranormal activity and possibly also cattle mutilations. But that's what he seemed to be pointing to. Well he didn't say, "Don't read my books."

Harrison: If you read one book, read this one.

Elan: Yeah. It was more like, my research is only pointing in the direction of what this material is getting closer too. So, I think there's a connection there and, like everything else, I don't think we can parse out all this information and think we've got the whole enchilada; it's connected to a whole lot of other things.

Harrison: Well, if you think about just human abductions in general; sometimes people get taken and then they get found, they get saved; sometimes they get taken and they never come back. Could the same thing be happening? If so-called alien abductions happen, could there be cases where the person is abducted and never comes back?

Shane: Well, when you're describing that case in the forest from the Missing 411 book, it just sounds so similar to so many of the abduction cases we hear about, where the person has this abduction experience and they find themselves waking up with their pants on backwards or -

Harrison: Wearing someone else's clothes.

Shane: Flipped around on the other side of the bed.

Carolyn: They look like they've been outside. They come in and their clothes are stickers and burrs and they're all wet, and as far as they knew, they were in bed.

Harrison: Now here's a crazy hypothesis. You know in Star Trek, the 'Transporter' and if you can imagine some kind of crazy, hi-tech aliens with these transporters, and getting the calculations just wrong a tiny bit and then you have a faulty reinsertion into...

Carolyn: It was a trainee.

Shane: Or a software glitch. We have those all the time so why not...

Harrison: "Oh! Oh, we missed their left leg. Ah, Oh well."

Shane: Their version of Microsoft is just incompatible. (Laughter)

Elan: Or, they just feel so omnipotent that they quite often don't take the care to accurately reinsert the person. Its like, "Well, we'll approximate their transport."

Shane: And there may be certain things that are just not quite in the realm of what they actually think about or consider. I guess, if we remove some farm animal from X-Y-Z farms, are we going to make sure to put it back in the exact place? With his exact friends? (Laughter)

Harrison: Anything more on those evil, kind of scary -

Carolyn: Well, you start wondering, "What's the point?"

Harrison: Oh, one more scary thing. For any of the space-brother-lovers, I'd just say, for anyone not sure, just read John Keels The Mothman Prophecies because that's a scary book. And if you can read The Mothman Prophecies and come away feeling like, "This is awesome! These guys aren't scary." Well, maybe you're just fearless but it's kind of creepy when you read about. And we can get into the Men in Black. The phone stuff was one of the freakiest for me, just how many problems that John Keel had with his phone; strange calls and harassment and just overall weirdness. We'd have to have an entire show on that book to get into all the details

Carolyn: Not to mention all the postal stuff. And remember this was in the 60's, when you would think the technology wasn't to the point where you could mess with the mail, and his mail was constantly, constantly disrupted. Or a letter would be sent but key parts would be missing. He would get letters when he was thinking about writing to somebody and get a letter back before he'd even sent it. It's just bizarre.

Elan: Speaking of recommended books, I actually wanted to recommend a book of fiction, a novel, called Morningstar Pass - The Collapse of the UFO Cover Up. Which was written by a gentleman by the name of Victor Norgarde; writing under a pseudonym. It's a real page turner, the gist of it is that it's a look at the how the whole alien presence subject has been suppressed, in the US especially. It's a bit of an adventure. I was looking at Amazon this morning to just read up on it again. And it was funny because the most well reviewed review was by C. Scott Littleton who many of us know from 2500 Strand and Phase Two, which RedPill Press now publishes. Littleton called Morningstar Pass, the War and Peace of books in the genre of UFOs. It covers a lot of the themes we've been discussing and it's got a whole substory of cattle mutilations and the reactions of farmers in the stories, who have been trying to find out what the cause of it is.

And one of the best scenes in the book, they find a UFO actually with a cow in its tractor beam and they're kinda shooting at the UFO to get their cow back, pretty hilarious and horrific at the same time. Morningstar pass, is available on Amazon and it's a great read.

Carolyn: Well, just two more things then; just to highlight the interest in these particular components of some unfortunate animal, John Keel again, this is from The Mothman Prophecies, this is from chapter nine, talked about, concurrent with the UFO flap, when he was there in '66/'67, was not just cows but many, many, many dogs. He writes, "From the October 1973 flap, just prior was an epidemic of animal deaths from Minnesota to Mississippi, confounding the investigators was the absence of blood and prints, even on warm days with the carcass freshly killed, no bleeding in or around the animal, no animal tracks were detected even in fresh snow." Now this is really interesting, he also mentions, "Four bloodless human bodies were found with slashed throats in a field near Klek Mountain" - I don't know where that is - so he writes, "I began to seriously wonder if blood and flesh were not vital ingredients in the mysterious transmogrification process. Did energies from the super-spectrum need earthly biological materials to construct temporary entities? It does seem as if many UFO and monster sightings are staged as distractions, luring crowds of people to places like -the TNT area while animal mutilations and disappearances are taking place almost unnoticed only a few miles away."

And then he goes on to detail something really amazing:
"In March 1967, a truly astonishing UFO "attack" took place in West Virginia, apparently supporting the vampiric theories I was entertaining at the time. While other UFO investigators had been collecting endless descriptions of things seen in the sky, I was out examining dead animals in remote fields, pondering the real meaning behind the bloodless carcasses."

"On the night of March 5, a Red Cross Bloodmobile was travelling along Route 2, which runs parallel to the Ohio River. Beau Shertzer, twenty-one, and a young nurse had been out all day collecting human blood and now they were heading back to Huntington, West Virginia, with a van filled with fresh blood. The road was dark and cold and there was very little traffic. As they moved along a particularly deserted stretch, there was a flash in the woods on a nearby hill and a large white glow appeared."

"The object effortlessly swooped over the van and stayed with it. Shertzer rolled down his window and looked up. He was horrified to see some kind of arm or extension being lowered from the luminous thing cruising only a few feet above the Bloodmobile."

"It looked as if the flying object was trying to wrap a pincers-like device around the vehicle. Shertzer poured on the horses but the object kept pace with them easily. Apparently they were saved by the sudden appearance of headlights from approaching traffic. As the other cars neared, the object retracted the arms and hastily flew off."

"Did the UFO really intend to carry off the Bloodmobile? Or was it all a sham to "prove" the UFO's interest in blood. Later I tried to check to find out if any Bloodmobiles had actually vanished anywhere. The Red Cross thought I was a bit nuts."
So, hmm ...

Harrison: There was a book published recently, I haven't had a chance to read it but some of the people the forum have read it and posted reviews, called; A Trojan Feast - I can't remember the author off the top of my head - it's about the presence and use of food in all kinds of alien type phenomena. And he goes back and looks at the presence of food in all the cases and reports in the last 60-70 years, because there are cases of aliens giving people little drinks or salty pancakes or whatever, and also of what aliens might eat, and then he goes back into areas of mythology and fairy folklore and others, and pools it all together and looks for the connections and makes some interesting conclusions. So like I said, I haven't read it yet but I want to because it sounds pretty interesting. But just a bit more on that before we move to something else, when you look at it and see the similarities between the alien/UFO phenomena and fairy phenomena - first of all, this was an area that I think Keel got into very early on but the first guy who wrote a book that was influential in the UFO field was Jacques Vallees', Passport to Magonia [On UFOs, Folklore and Parallel Worlds].

Since then several people have looked at the same thing and come to the same conclusions, we talked about it last week, but it looks like this phenomenon carries over between generations and it just changes its shape a bit, the clothes that it wears but at the root, something similar has been going on this whole time. And so the so-called UFO phenomenon isn't anything new, it's just that the way that we've seen it and the form that it takes, the form in which we see it has been changed to cater to the times and the technology of the times. So there are some pretty big implications when you look at it from that perspective, and see just how long this has been going on. That it seems like a permanent aspect of our planet, of humanity, of human culture and being, in general. And that just throws the field wide open; there are so many possible ways to look at it and avenues of research but unfortunately few people do look at it, because it's crazy and its fringe and it's out there.

We'll talk about it a bit more as the show goes on but I wonder how many facets of knowledge and areas of research it goes into and has implications for and how it all ties together. So I really think this is one of the more important things that people could be looking into but they don't. So it's kind of disappointing but it's an adventure and a mystery at the same time. So it's fun. But in last week's show, we dedicated it to UFOs, obviously, we titled it; Do Aliens Eat People? [What's up with UFOs - 20 June 2015; ( and we heard afterwards we had a large boost in listeners, not all of whom were from this planet apparently.

Elan: We're increasing our listeners.

Harrison: Yeah. Off planet! I guess they're listening to us on Zeta Reticuli.

Carolyn: The numbers are the numbers.

Harrison: So we thought we've got this new market, this new listenership, we might as well take advantage of it and take some advertising. So we thought, what the hell, let's just run one of their ads and see what they've got to say. So we got this from a top secret transmission the other day. We'll just play it and see what it says.

(Female voice) "Ideal Pastures, only the best quality ingredients, award winning service. These are what Agro-Terror natural farms the most trusted provider of a range of high quality meats for eons. And now those great tasting cuts you've come to love are even better. In recent centuries, we here at Agro-Terror have implemented a range of state of the art innovations to not only make our products more delicious but more affordable too; no matter which galactic quadrant that you're from. And as always, special discounts are available to all Zeta Reticulans. Our herds are not only thriving, their numbers have grown exponentially, providing an abundance of reasonably priced, source of nourishment. All this thanks to Agro-Terror's most recent native educational campaigns, designed by our ingenious team of social engineers."

"We ensure a healthy and abundant crop by over stimulating mating drives while simultaneously discouraging the use of contraception with our specially formulated fear of eternal damnation and hell-fire. We know and respect our customers' tastes; that's why we've achieved a record breaking 95% purity level by influencing a new global campaign to reduce the tainting effects tobacco smoking has on our products. Our latest flock; of vegetarians is coming along nicely, with any luck the next litter will be teaming with non-smoking vegetarians - our best selling product, by far! But, whatever your preferences, our humans are 100% Terror-grown. Naturally smoked for the duration of their lives, with the highest quality industrial emissions infused with a life time of natural mouth watering, emotional flavourings. And aged to perfection in your choice of: Suburb, Slum, Cubicle or Mansion; all to get that classic flavouring you've come to love. We've also introduced a brand new subscription service for our top new line of Loosh wineries and breweries, producing the finest blends of immobilising fear and abject terror, all our classic flavours are back in stock.

Try our Polite Canadian, a light, mild blend of social anxiety and repressed anger and resentment or, for the more daring, try our robust, signature psychotic Israeli, a bitter brew, bursting with pure hatred, accents of paranoia and a full aroma of self-righteous fanaticism. This eras American harvest will be sure to blow you away; years of interracial strife, economic disparity and stressful work have resulted in a complex and intoxicating palate. Don't believe us? Listen to what our customers!"

(Sounds of distortion, and lip smacking, by a synthesized male voice.) "We've been getting our food from Terror for centuries" (Barking and growling.)

"Agro-Terror Natural; a division of the galactic overseers co-op. Offering the finest in free-range, grain fed, protein, harvested from a fully domesticated population. And genetically modified for optimal nutrition, and high-fat content; delivered right to your species mothership. There's a reason you've trusted us for millennia. Agro-Terror Naturals, the only choice. In the neighbourhood, stop by to enjoy all the benefits our Terror-Spa's have to offer. From a nourishing bath, to a relaxing tour of your choice multiple war-theatres, zones of economic strife, and natural disasters."

Harrison: Wow! That was creepy.

Elan: That was creepy.

Carolyn: Creepily accurate.

Elan: They have guts, the gall, to advertise with the Truth Perspective.

Harrison: You know, that makes me wonder, because that sounds like one of those ads that you might hear on the radio for human corporations; I wonder which way is the direction of causation there. Are they copying us? Or are we copying them?

Shane: Good Question.

Elan: That opens up a new door to this discussion, I think. And that is, how in fact might we be food for the aliens? What does that mean exactly? Are we filet mignon? Are people abducted for their choice cuts? Or is there something else involved here that's a little more subtle?

Harrison: Both.

Shane: I'd say both too. It's an interesting question, because in the last show we talked about Keel and looking at the UFO phenomenon in terms of non-physical ideas and, earlier today, we were talking about the more physical components. So it does seem important that there are physical and spiritual aspects that we need to look at. So we have a gruesome picture of what it looks like on the physical level, but when we're asking what does this mean on the spiritual level, well, like you said, it opens up the door to a whole new topic and what does that mean?

Harrison: Well, in the commercial, I had a startling revelation, about the Loosh wineries and breweries - I wonder what those taste like, I don't want to know, maybe I'm a polite Canadian already. In abduction reports and other case studies of these types of phenomenon, there does seem to be an aspect of some kind of emotional feeding. You'll have abductees who say, "It just felt like they were draining me of my emotion or feeding on it in some way, like an emotional vampire." Now, even that term emotional vampire, it's a phrase used to describe human interpersonal relationships, that some people are just a drain.

Now, the way I think about it, if you just look at the human level, like we talked about last week with psychopaths, if you look at someone like a sadist, there is something about that act of sadism that gives them something; some kind of pleasure; it feeds some kind of appetite. And so you'll have a person who will torture a person for no good reason - I can't think of a good reason for torturing someone, though there are pseudo reasons that some torturers give, like those in the CIA - but these types of barbaric, disgusting acts of torture, some people get off on it, they enjoy it, they get something out of it.

Carolyn: Wasn't there an interview with some of the volunteer Ukrainian battalions.

Elan: I was just going to mention that.

Carolyn: They were interviewing these guys and they basically brought it down to the idea that they love that sense of power, it makes them feel alive, it makes them feel awake and they crave it.

Harrison: So there's some sick stuff if you think about just humans, now if you think about that same dynamic but on a higher level. If we do have these beings that are on a higher level than humans, just as humans are on a higher level, in certain senses, than animals. If you imagine these beings, with this super-hi-tech technology as well as a different sort of 'being' than humanity. It's like they exist in a different realm in a certain sense. Then just scale that up and what are the possibilities. What would - let's just use the word angel - angel has been in the human vocabulary for a long time and people think of angels as these higher types of beings, what if there are psychopathic angels? Angels a bad word because people think of this flowery, little happy -

Carolyn: Psychopathic angels are probably called devils.

Harrison: Yeah. Think about it in terms of devils, demons. These higher beings that are totally psychopathic, maybe even more so than the psychopaths we experience here on earth.

Elan: I think this whole feeding thing can be paired down to humans as well. We have factory farming where animals are largely made to suffer before they die. And then you have a whole movement of people who are farming animals with an appreciation for them, with a respect for them, and for the sustenance that they give. And what does it really come down to? We can't exist without food, without energy. And if it's correct that people who have been abducted have been fed upon in a way, energetically, it's through fear; it's through negative feelings which have a negative vibration. So I don't think it's such a leap to think that there may be some technology or some way, to extract this energy through emotions that can be fed upon.

Shane: We really don't know what type of technology there might be. But we can identify these feeding mechanisms from psychopaths but also just in our own daily interactions with others, it seems that society has been programmed with this narcissistic family dynamic. Where we don't know how to function or express our emotions properly; we're covertly aggressive, and all these ways are feeding mechanisms. You can observe and identify when this is happening. In the wave series written by Laura Knight-Jadczyk, she writes about this.

One of the early observations that she had was taking her daughter to school and observing these cliques of kids that would gravitate towards each other. And within these groups there seemed to be a dominator, in each group, and it seemed that they were sucking the energy from others, they had stronger posture, and they were basically feeding. So the question is; where does that energy go? Is it being absorbed through abductions? Maybe partially, but it does seem that there's a wider component to this as well. When we look at the way society is set up, there is this hierarchy, and when we look at politics and how governments organise, there's massive, massive feeding going on, and massive suffering. Where is all that energy going?

Carolyn: It does seem to have intent, if negative emotion is the goal. Whether it is anger or envy or suffering, despair, there seems to be an almost concerted engineering to create that situation as widely as possible. And again, where is all that energy going?

Harrison: If you think about human farms - I mean, farms that humans run; we feed animals in certain ways, we give them certain types of foods, certain injections, we tag them in certain ways, we watch their movements, we arrange their living environment and their social structure in such a way as to make, what we consider, an ideal farm, an ideal source of food. And the stock, the livestock, whatever animal it is, we totally control their lives; their lives are totally directed to that end.

Shane: And we design it so they can't live outside that environment. They're domesticated, i.e. programmed, to rely on that system, and we can apply that to our cities, it's like a big domesticated farm.

Harrison: Agro-Terror Naturals! And with that in mind, it might be a good thought procedure, for anyone who that doesn't or hasn't really considered this as a viable possibility, to just do a reverse Pascal's wager. And to say, if this is true, what might the implications be? Let's just say; if this is true - get rid of any preconceived notions and have a little fun - if this is true, let me look at it. Then if I scale this up a notch, what could it be about human society in general that has been arranged and organised in such a way as to meet ends, that might not be for our best advantage but might be to the advantage of the alleged beings doing the organisation. So what might it be? If we look at human society -

Carolyn: You shape the way they eat.

Harrison: Yeah. It could be any number of options. So first of all, let's take food, so you shape the way they eat.

Carolyn: Low fat and lots of grains!

Harrison: So right there we say, ok, maybe we're not eating the right foods. So then you look into it and the obvious conclusion, if you just start looking into it is that, no, humans are not eating the right types of food for us at least. And that there are much more ideal diets, specifically the Ketogenic diet.

Carolyn: But then you go into social engineering; you make this diet, this low-fat, high grain diet, that's the one you propagate across the social structure. It's how you train your doctors, it's how you train through advertising and all of a sudden society will do it all on its own. Your work is done; same with smoking.

Elan: The Health and Wellness show had a bit about water fluoridation recently. And I was reminded of a passage I'd read in Jim Mars'; Rise of the Fourth Reich. Where the Nazi's intentionally fluoridated the water, precisely because they knew that the people drinking it would be under their sway, that they would be more easily controlled.

Shane: That's what fluoride does to the brain.

Carolyn: It depresses pituitary function and damages your cognitive abilities.

Elan: And as far as we know, the US is the only country in the world that purposefully fluoridates its water.

Harrison: Canada does too.

Carolyn: Well they're fighting back and forth about it. The other thing is you purposefully, if you're looking for emotional output, then you educate, as best you can, the society to view everyone else outside your little circle as an enemy. So, you have constant inputs of suspicion, anxiety, and if you're really lucky you'll get yourself a war; plenty of suffering to go around there.

Shane: The advantage that we have when farming animals is that they don't think. We can put up a pen and they won't have the cognitive ability to escape that pen.

Carolyn: And you think we're any different?? (Laughter)

Shane: Well... we have some capacity to think.

Harrison: Relative to farm animals.

Shane: But that's what I was getting at. Our cognitive capacity has been pretty much squashed. It's probably a very small percentage of the population that actively thinks. So it's interesting to look at, as you were saying Harrison, to consider the implications if this is true, if we are being farmed, then something that would need to happen would be to diminish that cognitive ability.

Harrison: A farmer's worse nightmare is a flock of self-aware, intelligent chickens, which are able to see what's going on, plan their escape. (Laughter) So naturally we want the chickens to be dumb and we want them to be totally controlled - we don't even want them knowing that they're in prison. It should be just normal for them.

Shane: We want them to live a comfortable life and to let them enjoy their captivity.

Harrison: Well, that's arguable because I think that farm life in general isn't that pleasant or that comfortable, we've just perfected the art of putting animals in totally abject conditions.

Shane: Yeah I was actually thinking about a real farm, not the factory farms which are pretty miserable.

Elan: Ok. So, all of this begs the question; obviously we have some people, who have or are attempting to or are working very hard to, fly the coup. We do know some things. We're becoming more self-aware and I guess that process never ends. What is it about those people, those Karla Turners and Laura Knight-Jadczyk of the world, that makes them self-aware in such a way, so as to not only not want to be food - knowing that they have been food or can be food, but to also share that impetus and understanding with others.

Carolyn: Well the first thing would be to be willing to admit it. The first thing is to say, "Yes this is -" If you want to call it Pascal's wager, let's take it, and act accordingly.

Harrison: I think we can even go back to our discussion about Dabrowski, and the different levels of people; different values, intellectual and emotional capacities, what the person is able to see. And then what, and we don't even have to talk about Dabrowski. Certain people seem to have more capacity for - what we could call - development. And those features tend to be universal amongst those types of people.

Part of that is a love for truth, and just wanting to know what is really going on. And then when someone knows something, knows the truth about some circumstance, some set of circumstances or facts, there will be an association with certain emotional components, and that's where the values come in. We might conclude that this state of affairs is wrong, and that there is a possibility for a better state of affairs. So if things continue on as they are now, things will be just as bad if not worse. But here is the solution, here's a way out, and here's a way to overcome these limitations that we've had, that we've been living under. So there's an element of truth, consciousness and conscience where, first of all, we want to know, without any lies or self calming, I just want to know the truth.

What is really going on? And what follows from that. What does know that truth imply for my future actions, for example. And there will usually only be one course, in general terms, to not accept that reality for what it is, to see it for what it is, but to know that it is not acceptable. And that there are better ways, because if you were in prison or if you're one of Plato's guys in caves and you find out what's really going on and you say, "Well, ok, well, that's just the way things are. That's just our government. Love it or leave it, right?" No. That's not a choice from conscience, that's just capitulation, that's just giving in. And, who knows, maybe some people are a perfect part of the system and they don't want anything else, that's their free will, they can do that.

Carolyn: Then you have Cypher, from the Matrix; "I loved it there, send me back!"

Elan: And implies that there are other energetic ways of feeding. And getting back to Dabrowski and other literature, it's communicating through honesty, it's asking for what's wanted or needed, as opposed to manipulating and drawing out energy from others in a dishonest way, in a way that's covert. If that's true on our level, if people with normal relationships reflect that idea and ideal, then it's probably true on other levels too. We don't have too much information regarding what we might positive ET's or ET's that don't feed on us - or maybe we do, actually - but the idea is to live in truth, as you were saying Harrison and pursue that line as far as you can take it.

Carolyn: And one way to go with that is to say, what seems to be the goal, and then go in opposition to it. So going back to what you said; if the goal is a lot of negative emotions, suspicions, anger, whatever, then to foster conditions where those emotions don't arise. So by being honest and expressing emotions, you may neutralise the negativity of the situation. And that could be a way of starving the system.

Harrison: Yeah, starve the system.

Elan: Actually, Carlos Castaneda has a quote along those lines and our listeners are probably familiar with it but it seems apropos. He begins: "Whenever doubts plague you to a dangerous point, do something pragmatic about it; turn off the light, pierce the darkness, and find out what you can see. The sorcerers of ancient Mexico saw the Predator" - and we'll get into what that predator means - "they called it the Flier because it leaps through the air. It is not a pretty sight, it is a big shadow. Impenetrably dark, a black shadow that jumps through the air. Then it lands flat on the ground. The sorcerers of ancient Mexico were quite ill at ease of it when it made its appearance on earth.

They reasoned that Man must have been a complete being at one point with stupendous insights, feats of awareness that are mythological legend nowadays. And then everything seems to disappear. We have now a sedated man. What I'm saying is that what we have against us is not a simple predator; it is very smart and organised. It follows a methodical system to render us useless. Man, the magical being that he is destined to be, is no longer magical, he's an average piece of meat. There are no longer dreams for man but the dreams of an animal who is being raised to become a piece of meat; trite, conventional, imbecilic. The only alternative left for mankind is discipline."

"Discipline is the only deterrent. But by discipline, I don't mean harsh routines. I don't mean waking up at 5:30am and throwing cold water on yourself till you're blue. Sorcerers understand discipline as the capacity to face with serenity, odds that are not included in their expectations. For them discipline is an art, the art of facing infinity without flinching. Not because they are strong and tough but because they are filled with awe.

Sorcerers say that discipline makes the glowing coat of awareness unpalatable to the flier. The result is that the predators become bewildered and the inedible coat of awareness is not part their cognition I supposed. After being bewildered they don't have any recourse other than refraining from their nefarious task. If the predators don't eat our glowing coat of awareness for a while it'll keep on growing. Simplifying this matter to the extreme, I can say that sorcerers by means of their discipline, push the predators away long enough to allow their glowing coat of awareness to grow, beyond the level of the toes. Once it goes beyond the level of the toes it grows back to its natural size. The sorcerers of ancient Mexico; used to say that the glowing coat of awareness is like a tree, if it is not pruned it grows to its natural size and volume.

As awareness reaches levels higher than the toes, tremendous moves of perception become a matter of course. The grand trick of sorcerers of ancient times was to burden the fliers mind with discipline. They found out that if they tax the fliers mind with inner silence, the foreign installation would flee. Giving to anyone of the practitioners involved in this manoeuvre the total certainty of the minds foreign origin. The foreign installation comes back, I assure you, but not as strong. And a process begins in which the fleeing of the fliers mind becomes routine till one day it flees permanently. A sad day indeed.

That's the day when you have to rely on your own devices which are nearly zero. There's no one to tell you what to do. There's no mind of foreign origin to dictate the imbecilities you're accustomed to. This is the toughest day in a sorcerer's life. For the real mind that belongs to us, the sum total of our experience, after a lifetime of domination has become shy, insecure and shifty. Personally, I would say that the real battle of sorcerers begins at this moment. The rest is merely preparation. Discipline taxes the foreign mind no end. So, through their discipline sorcerers vanquish this foreign installation. The fliers mind flees forever when a sorcerer succeeds in grabbing on to the vibrating force that holds us together as a conglomerate of energy fields. If a sorcerer maintains that pressure long enough, the fliers mind flees in defeat.

When one is torn by internal struggle, it is because down in the depths of oneself, one knows that one is incapable of refusing the agreement that an indispensable part of the self, the glowing coat of awareness, is going to serve as an incomprehensible source of nourishment to incomprehensible entities. And another part of one will stand against the situation with all ones might. The sorcerer's revolution is they refuse to honour agreements in which they did not participate. Nobody ever asked me if I would consent to be eaten by beings of a different kind of awareness. My parents just brought me into this world to be food, like themselves. And that's the end of the story."

So, there are so many things that are implied and suggested in this bit of esoteric literature by Carlos Castaneda. And one is that people for a long time have acknowledged that their emotions, their scatteredness, their inability to focus, have led to them being vulnerable to forces that have fed upon them.

Harrison: Well, for Carlos Castaneda, it's kind of a mixed bag for me. I think the passage is really good. But the way I tend to look at Castaneda is like a novelist who writes really good stuff. It has all kinds of deeper meanings and applications to wider fields of knowledge. But, a couple of things; He himself was kind of a wretched human being (Laughter). So I see it more that he was talking in symbols and analogies for real phenomena and he gets pretty close to a lot of the heart of the matter. So I think there's a lot of value in that passage in particular, and others in his books.

Carolyn: He has another passage where he also talks about the glowing coat of awareness that, for the average human being it has being eaten down to the toes. The idea being that they leave just enough to keep the human animated; up and moving around and doing the basics. Another manoeuvre, if you want to go on with his illustration, is to cause ridiculous problems and situations and that, according to Castaneda, it was to create flares of emotion, frustration and anger, whatever, and that these would be what were consumed. And I thought that that was a really interesting picture.

Shane: The whole concept of the glowing coat of awareness is interesting. Basically what I think he's saying is, is that in a way, the more that we're aware and the more knowledge that we have, the more we can protect ourselves. It can apply to very normal circumstances but we might also apply it to the more extraordinary concepts that we're also talking about today. It ties into this other idea that Castaneda is talking about which is this; Foreign Installation. So this idea, he also expands on it, calling it the predators mind. And that the predator gave us there mind and that there is something within us that connects us with the predator. And we can think about it in terms of Ponerization, where we adopt ponerized thinking. But it seems it even goes deeper than that because even without infected thinking, we still have all these faulty mechanisms inherent in our psychology. It could be the adaptive unconscious, the system 1 and system 2; types of thinking, where there's automatic thinking and behaviour which pretty much rules us every part of the day. And it can be combated with a more critical examination of our lives.

So I think those things all tie in with one another and, ultimately, the more we are applying that critical thinking and that knowledge base, the more protection we have.

Harrison: I think we should get more into that a bit more. If this is a true picture of the human condition, what avenues of protection do we have? What is our escape plan, essentially, from the human farm? A few things are needed, and I think you mentioned them Shane. First of all, a radical change in world view, because we don't look at the world in such a way as for these things to be obvious to us or to even see them as possibilities.

So the first thing is gaining that knowledge to totally change your world view - but what's probably more important is that change in being. That's a very nebulous term, like the glowing coat of awareness, it's like, "Well, what exactly are these things?" Well this is essentially what we were talking about in the Dabrowski show. And from that, when there has been this radical transformation within oneself and in the way that one sees the world, then there's an equally radical transformation of how we live in the world; the actions that we take and the decisions and choices that we make.

I think that the apostle Paul had a pretty good understanding of this. I read a book recently - we'll be talking about it in a bit - called; Practises of Power by a guy named Robert Moses. And he gets into Paul's world view; which is, in certain ways typical of an ancient world view. Not just for Paul but for the majority ancient cultures they looked at the world in a particular way.

Now this world view has almost completely been eradicated, stating with the enlightenment. Well, there have been trends for hundreds of years and certain thinkers and certain other trends have led us where we are today. Where the official worldview is; materialism - the only thing that exists is matter. And there's no God, no higher existence, no higher possibilities, no spirituality, no spiritual realms or realities, no spiritual beings, no higher beings, no parapsychology, etc... So the worldview itself has been totally - in my view - corrupted. I think the enlightenment in many ways was the era of un-enlightenment, where we actually lost a bit of knowledge about reality and the cosmos in general.

Carolyn: We lost half. They basically cut away half of creation.

Harrison: Um hm.

Shane: And I think when looking at this material, Paul's letters and his work. A lot of people might be dismissive because, "Well, wasn't Paul the creator of the Church?" And so, we can look at it through the lens of how we perceive the church today. But I think if Paul were alive today, he'd be particularly horrified with what the Christian church is or what it represents. Particularly because his knowledge base is almost absent from the actual teachings.

Harrison: Let's get into that a bit. Paul uses some words in his letters that are pretty interesting - talking about the Power and Principalities - and so he uses words like; Powers, Angels, Demons, Authorities, Lordships, Thrones, Principalities, Rulers, Satan, the Elements, Sin, Death and Flesh. So pretty much all those first words sound like politicians, what we call politicians. But Paul wasn't referring to any kind of earthly ruler. He wasn't referring to an emperor or pro counsel or governor or anything like that. He was referring to spiritual realities, spiritual beings.

Carolyn: And at that point in time that would have been understood.

Harrison: Yeah, because part of that ancient world view was these view that there are other beings, spiritual beings, which have a direct influence on events on earth, on human actions and events and possibly a decidedly negative one.

Shane: And just on that point, that's something that's completely missing today. When we think of spirituality and what it means today, it's mostly all couched in fluffy feel-good terms. Or that the higher spirituality is all just these positive, feel-good things, "I'm a spiritual person "La-di-da-di-da."And this idea that there's this negative component to these higher realities is very lacking.

Harrison: But Paul was atypical in certain ways. Because if you look at the Jewish literature at the time, which is the environment in which Paul grew up and the knowledge base that he had; they were concerned with these rulers, these spiritual demon type entities that controlled human type affairs. They were very interested in what the names of these guys were, and how to protect from certain ones by having certain relationships with these specific dudes. Paul wasn't really into any of that, he just used very general terms to describe these. Well first of all, just on the topic of the political names he gives them, I think that's kind of a clue. He's using words to describe these powers, and the words that he chooses are words that are given to political rulers.

Carolyn: The governing structure.

Harrison: So that's just an interesting thing to keep in mind. But for him, the so called powers that they; "pervade all powers of the cosmos and human existence" and that's a quote from Moses' book. So for Paul, this was a cosmic phenomenon, it was applicable to every facet of life. So it wasn't like you would read books of today on exorcism or demons today from either a secular or a religious catholic perspective, and you get a very particular view of what demons are, for example; they're the scary minions of Satan that possess people, and stuff like that.

Shane: And it kind of applied just at the individual level. You don't really hear much about how it can apply to the political realms or the more macrosocial level.

Carolyn: The perfect possession would go unnoticed.

Harrison: But for Paul this applied to every aspect of reality. So there's one word that he uses for the Powers which is the Elements. He compares - well, we'll skip the biblical exegesis - but he basically says that the Elements, that means the elements of the cosmos, the four elements are basically subject to these Powers; they can be diverted and co-opted in certain ways to have negative effects on life on earth. So from the very bottom, the very elements that make up our world, to the very top, everything is pervaded by a certain influence, by these beings, by these powers.

So that's a pretty radical idea that is totally foreign to most of the people on the planet today. Now of course there are certain ideas that are very similar. And of course there's a huge percentage of the population that does believe in spiritual beings or demons, pretty much most major religions have these ideas. Now whether a lot of people today actually believe them - we'd have to get into some statistics or surveys or whatever. Some of the ideas are there but the actual details and implications seem to be missing, as you were saying, Shane.

Carolyn: Well, they've narrowed the focus, as you said.

Shane: Yeah.

Carolyn: The closest you might be able to get is the primitive cultures, who; I think the term in the field is Animism. The idea that there is life-force in everything from stones to trees, to whatever, and that can be interacted with, that can influence you, in certain conditions you might want to influence it. But there's the idea that there's an entire unseen world that coexists along with the world that you can see.

Elan: This reminds me a lot of Malachi Martins book, Hostage to the Devil. One of the most compelling - this is a book of course, about priests and other figures, who were just figures who helped exercise people of demonic spiritual attachments. But he prefaces the story with a kind of supernatural scene in China during WWII, where somebody is clearly experiencing a weird possession, he then follows that up with a description of Japanese soldiers going on an absolute rampage, ISIS style. The implication was that in some form or another, these soldiers were, on a macro-level, possessed by something that was compelling them to act in the most grotesque and brutal ways. So just another little hint, of insight into how these forces may be acting through people on a larger scale.

Harrison: There's always a range of phenomena and the different ways they manifest, but I think we can accept the idea of direct possession, but there are more subtle ways too. And I think that this comes down to matters of subtle influence, taking advantage of certain habits or tendencies or constitutional characteristics of us as humans. Again on a human level we can see this just in terms of manipulation; manipulating someone to doing something that you want them to do. You might be able to personify or allegorize that as a type of possession, where the other person somehow possesses your mind in order to do something like an evil hypnotist.

And who knows, there may even be some kind of reality to that. But on the surface - let's just look at that in terms of manipulation, manipulating what's already there to get something that the other person wants. Paul described these in terms of what he called; Sin, Death in the Flesh. And so the flesh - he uses that word a lot, and by that he means, in a human fashion, and that's a bad thing. It's our human condition that causes us to act in certain ways that are not ideal.

Shane: Would you say that's in relation to the drives that are more materialistic?

Harrison: Well, yeah and everything about humans as we naturally are.

Carolyn: So for Paul, to be in a human body was to be basically screwed?

Harrison: No. that's just the human condition. We're in a certain place and there are better options and greener pastures to go to. The way I look at it, for Paul, the flesh and sin and death, were the human condition, in the sense of Primary Integration. So all those things I think about human nature that are pervasive in our culture and in most humans as the dominant directing force so from biology and society.

These forces that control us and determine our behaviours that are based at levels where they're at, the lower levels; there are higher levels. But anything that comes from those lower levels, strictly, is not going to be the ideal, it's not going to get us anywhere, it's not going to get us out of the farm. And so there's this influence that we're under, this human condition, which leads to this symbolic death; where we symbolically die because there's nothing left. There's no possibility for further growth; there's no possibility for - you could call it - eternal life. We're stuck in this death culture. This deathly way of being and acting where we're not going anywhere. We're not going anywhere higher than where we're at or where we were, we're just going along the same levels and then we disintegrate and die. And the way that we get there, the word Paul used was; Hamartia, sin.

Now again, we've had two thousand years of Christian dogmatics and ideas accreting onto these words so whenever we use them there's all these associations that we naturally have with them. But Paul's sin was a corrupting influence. If we think about it in terms of Ponerology, Poneros is a corrupting evil; evil that corrupts a person, diverts them; it coops them. And so in our lives the environment that we live in is structured in such a way that we are under the influence of sin; which Paul referred to as one of the Powers. He personified sin as this active force in the world, influencing people, and not only in our individual lives but politically, socially and in relation to the cosmos in general. On all these levels, by acting on these certain stimuli, from below and around us, we're not getting anywhere.

Shane: So basically to be living in sin, so to speak, would be acting on these forces that keep us separated, keep us disconnected from our truly human capacities. I've just started reading Moses' book, Practices of Power, Revisiting the Principalities and Powers in the Pauline Letters; and it was really fascinating to read through his terms. Because just given the show topic, there's a big relationship to the terms he uses and just the concepts of extra-terrestrials. He talks about super-terrestrial powers, alien forces, and alien gods. It might not have been in the same way we think of those terms but the relationship is clearly there.

One of the excerpts that I came across was that Paul discerned there was an internal inclination towards evil, in humans. It's kind of the same idea of Castaneda's concept of the predators mind. So there is this installation in us that drives us to disconnect from one another, from ourselves and our capacities. It's a fascinating book and I would recommend people checking it out.

Harrison: Paul also offers the way out. We'll get into that because these seem to be ideas for people but if they are realities they have actual implications for not only everyday behaviours but everything else about just living life; it is a part of life. The book is called Practices of Power; because for Paul - he doesn't really give any extended treatise on the Powers and their names who they are and what they do. They're these ideas that only really come out when you look at the practices, the actions and behaviours that individuals and a community engages in, either to guard against the influence of these powers or to expose themselves to the negative influences.

One of the ways Paul mentions being exposed to them is idol worship - Paul was a good Jew. But what he meant by idol worship is when people worship something that is lower than the highest. He saw the worship of idols as the worship of the elements. Something that isn't the totality and universality of everything; for him, the only thing worthy of worship was that totality. Again, we can see that in different terms. When for us the ultimate is something on a low level, when we are slaves to materiality or to some angelic being, some space brother, some alien or some ideology, then we are slaves to it.

And the only really way out is to not be under the power of anything. To not be under the power of anything except oneself, through - Paul would say - Christ; we might be able to get into what that actually means. But the opposite practices, the ones that actually protect, he describes at least three in his letters, which Moses focuses on in his book. And those are; Preaching, Baptism and Church Discipline.

So again, these words, we hear them and automatically think, "Oh I know what those are and that's nonsense." Even when I hear those words I'm like, "Argh... those words again." But what do they actually mean? Baptism for Paul was participating in the death and ascension of Christ. Whatever that was for Paul because he never actually gives a biography about Jesus, he just talks about Christ, it's always like a spiritual being for Paul, it seems.

Shane: Well, when you look at what baptism is, and takes away the religious connotations, and see what those elements are made up of; it's basically being stripped naked and reborn. And we have these Shamanic ideas even, of being stripped to the bone, which Laura Knight-Jadczyk writes about too. It's this peeling of layers, basically of these lies, and burning them off with Truth, by looking at the truth. And having this reverence for just what the truth is. We think about bible thumpers saying, "This is the truth." And well, no. We're talking about the objective truth. And I think when Paul is talking about using the truth as a means of offering protection and a way to act against or for you, to move away from these powers, to escape, he is talking about objective reality.

Elan: You know, this reminds me a lot of Mouravieff and the Gnosis books. And he's quite adamant about living in truth and not lying. And he also describes the physiological process burning; which is very interesting because you read about it it's this abstract idea of burning off lies, burning off the false, of dying in a certain way.

But honestly, if you've ever been confronted by a truth or you've experienced something where you're facing your own lies, your own thoughts, that are more connected to ego or other personality appendages that don't really serve you to growth, you may have experienced a real burning at the back of your neck. And it's difficult - I feel it now! - but it's a sensation, and I can't say there's a direct one to one correlation between this experience with the burning at the back of the neck and confronting things but there does seem to be a real objective process involved in all this that Mouravieff and now Paul seem to be describing.

Shane: I think that struggle which you're talking about also relates to how Paul saw worship - which is you were talking about Harrison - the concept of worship, specifically the worship of Idols, has a very old sentiment about it, because who really worships anymore? But it's basically in terms of the attachments we have, to different ideas, the different attention that we give to and how hard we latch onto things, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with truth.

Carolyn: Or perhaps when we talk about attachments it can be anything that distorts, whether it's an idea or a hobby, it could be anything that brings distortion and imbalance to your life.

Elan: Identification with modern day idols or rock stars and -

Harrison: American Idol.

Elan: Exactly. It's kind of what you're getting at Carolyn; it's an area of focus.

Carolyn: And not only that, it seems like we are conveniently provided with it. Anybody who goes to an office and stands around the water cooler on a Monday morning, you know where the focus is; the last football game, that last-whatever, but that's the idol.

Harrison: That's the importance of true Baptism. Paul sees baptism as this symbolic act that recreates - what you guys have been describing - this process of burning, of death, of coming to a new life, dying to the world - as Paul put it once - to positive disintegration. A death of the old, false personality, of the foreign installation of the predators mind, of the vast evolutionary history of the human biological machine, and the way that influences and forms human consciousness, a death of that for something new to grow out of it. And so part of that death involves a death to all those identifications and all those things that we've been focusing on so much that really don't matter in the big picture.

Carolyn: All the things that you think of, that are you.

Harrison: Yeah. And they aren't. And they're actually, probably, those aspects of our social life that are created and implemented by the people farming the human farm; these are the things that keep us distracted and focused on 'farm life' to hinder us from realising what's really going on and our possible escape and possibly to get out from under the influence of the Powers and Principalities. So two of the other practices, one is Preaching; all preaching really is, is Preaching of the Gospel and of the good news. And what is the good news? That there is this knowledge; this reality, to the structure of the cosmos, that there is a way out. For Paul, he would say that God made a promise to humanity and all creation, and the good news is merely the news that this is true and that God was faithful to his promise.

Now what does that mean? The way I see that is that there is a possibility, there is a way out, and that this is it. So by giving that knowledge and these practices to other people that is a good act; that something that helps other people and fosters one's own development. This is another thing we were talking about in the Dabrowski programme. To be an advisor to other people, to provide the information about human nature, about oneself, in order to help that person in their own development. And to be a productive part of the cosmos and not just some cattle slave that lives its life totally at the whims of someone else, of some other these forces, and never achieves what it was here to actually do.

Elan: And there's this interesting idea that by helping another, to see themselves, to see the nature of being alive and what their issues are, that you can in fact help yourself, simultaneously. It's a win-win, like we were saying a little earlier, it's quite different to giving false information and from being manipulative, it's that feeding that is the exact opposite of so much of what we see today in the world, and what we are getting at in our description of how these negative ET's interact with us.

Carolyn: And I think it's interesting that he says, 'you preach and you share' but he says another thing about not making anybody adopt those views. So that would his view of God keeping a promise but respecting the free will of this creature that is a child of the cosmos. It says nothing about, "Here it is and you have to do it." You can choose or not, but by making that available you have increased the reach of this loving being.

Elan: I think this also suggests that we're making a promise to God, in a way. It has to be a two-way street. (Agreement) If there is this promise that he or she is making to us, there has to be some amount of faith, and work, involved in increasing the connection.

Harrison: Exactly. And if you look at the word grace; grace is just a translation of the word for Gift. So Gods Grace is God's Gift to the universe. And if you look at the ancient ideas about a gift, a gift wasn't a one way affair, when you gave a gift there was a reciprocal aspect to it. So the person receiving the gift was then under obligation to the person who gave the gift. There was this two way relationship. So there was this responsibility - it was like a circle of giving. That faithfulness does go both ways.

And the Nature of Faith is a whole other topic. But the third practice, like you were saying Carolyn, how it's not like, "Everybody has to do this." When in fact the third practice that Paul engages in; in the Letters, is Church Discipline. And this was kicking out a bad memory. Because for Paul; a pathological element in the community was an opening for the influence of the Powers. Now being a part of a community in general did provide some protection, because for Paul the community and its expression of Love was the ultimate thing.

And so that by itself is a protection from the influence of the Powers. And even will offer a bit of protection to the deviant individual. But when you have a deviant individual it goes the other way too, right? Like I just said, and that provides an opening for the corrupting influence, that's where we get into ponerology, where the one deviant individual can have a corrupting influence on any society, any community, any group; the act of discipline to that individual, such as excluding them from the group, is also a vital part of this and this is something we are totally missing from our culture. Because we do not exclude individuals who are corrupting influence, we put them into power. So if you think about the nature of the people, who rule our planet, and the fact that we do nothing to prevent them getting there.

Shane: Well Paul talks a lot about structures in society, and one of the things he mentions is that these structures can be organised in a way where they can bring in the influence of the divine or the demonic. And this is what we see today, that we're led by these really base, I wouldn't call them humans because they're more like creatures, and they create these systems that are used as mechanisms to bring the worst of the worst in to our world. And the highest developed people, they're just not around, particularly the United States.

Harrison: So, this just shows how the Powers, for Paul and I think just in truth, influence every level of creation. So from our lowest basest nature, we can call it our evolutionary endowment, to our social structures. And it's not that the structures themselves are inherently evil, that politics is a bad thing (laughter) -

Shane: "No."

Harrison: "I disagree".

Carolyn: Someone has to catch the dogs.

Shane: Well if you look at in different terms, in older societies, Paleo societies, there was a political order but it was led by the Shamans. It was led by people who could transduce these higher energies and live by these ideals, whereas the society we have today is turned on its head.

Elan: Bringing this back to Castaneda for a moment, something else that's interesting is, he mentioned these ancient sorcerers, that their big mistake was trying to battle these big aliens - if you will - or otherworldly forces, and he said that was exactly the wrong thing to do. The right thing to do would be to battle the Petty Tyrant; which on our level would be the psychopath and everything that psychopathic thinking, on our level, implies. We talked a lot today about what it means to resist, what it means to protect oneself from these other supernatural forces, and the crux of what we've been getting at is, let's practise on our level. Not that we want to seek out a Petty Tyrant or a sociopath or have these negative interactions, in fact they're very stressful, but to deal with them as wisely and in as smart a way as you can.

Shane: I think that's something that Paul would agree with. He mentioned something in similar terms about not battling society, because you basically can't, you can work on the individual level, build your own awareness.

Carolyn: And increase on whatever small level, in his community, a base of something good and decent. And that's - I don't want to say that's enough but maybe it is enough. You just do what you can. And he went about creating these communities, and from every description they were quite vibrant; he had to go and scold them occasionally, but that was the goal. Was not to bring down, for what in his era would have been the ultimate Petty Tyrant of the Roman government, but to simply create the space for these ideals and values to grow.

All: (Agreement)

Harrison: Well, just a couple more points before we tie it all together and wrap it all up. I think just from the conversation so far, that, in order to get a handle on the UFO phenomenon and everything that goes along with it, you really have to branch out into a whole different bunch of areas. And I think that's the problem that most Ufologists run up against, is that they're so narrow minded in their approach that they miss the big picture, miss all the implications in almost every field of study. Because you need to look at history, human psychology - but even then, you've got to get through all the crap and uni-level nonsense that's out there in the mainstream psychological literature - you've got to get into parapsychology, religious ideas, philosophy; it's endless. You can't really limit yourself to these nuts and bolts, "I want to know how UFO's get from point A to point B. There's probably some kinda nuclear reactor in there."

Shane: It's kind of reflective of what we talked about on the Dabrowski show. And how, when you're engaged at that primitive level that your interests are very narrow. And we could say that for many, many fields, most all in western society, they have their subject matter and a very narrow focus on that. By having this myopic view, you miss so many pieces that tie it together.

Carolyn: And that's been fostered. Even just getting back to the ground level of the study of this world; I think Laura Knight-Jadczyk was complaining that Geologists don't talk to History people and Palaeontology people -

Harrison: And no-one talks to the Egyptologists!

Carolyn: Maybe they don't need to be talked to, but this idea that you 'stick to your own knitting' and you don't look at anybody else's. And so the opportunity to make larger conclusions about the world has been stymied, amazingly, because of this whole view that's been fostered in academia. And that's just one example, you get countries comparing notes, different populations comparing notes about their living conditions, if people in the US would actually go and see what's going on in Russia, they'd probably think, "Hmm, things aren't as great here in the US as we thought they were."

Elan: I tell yeah, the more I learn about things that are happening in the world, the different ways that social engineering is the Agro-Terror commercial incorporated, the more I realise, if we are being socially engineered, if that's true, if we are being farmed, then they've done a pretty darn good job of it. Because it so pervasive. Things are so upside down and twisted, and until you really see a little bit of it in everything - I mean absolutely everything, everything is normalised, it's not an issue, it's just the way things are, you think most things are correct, but they're not. So that's one parting thought we can leave with today and chew on a little bit.

Shane: I think that point is one of the arguments that we are being farmed. Because things are so massively bad that it can't have gotten this way by accident.

Elan: No.

Harrison: We need an internet meme with that guy from ancient aliens right now.

Elan: "Aliens!"

Shane: "Why are things so bad?"

Harrison: Taking a look at the big picture, if we see planet earth as being a giant farm, and if we put together all the ideas we've been talking about, not just in these past shows but the past weeks and month, then we can say that these powers exist and they have an influence on people. And one of the implications is that those with the least self control, the least amount of being, that are the most vulnerable to control by these forces.

So what does that imply? That these individuals tend to be psychopaths and psychopaths tend to achieve positions of power, and psychopaths then rule the Polis - they create the political structure - that is, if not inherently evil then definitely evil under the influence of these individuals. And so it creates this circle, kind of like a concentration camp, where the real guards get some inmates to act as their police force within the camp. And that's what we have, we these agents of the Powers, presumably, and they're the ones running the show; policing and ruling the planet. So if we want to look to what's really going on, it's not necessary to accept the reality of aliens or powers, you don't have to, but just look at life on this planet and you'll get pretty close, and the results will be the same. Because the problem is that the individuals in power are psychopaths. Now it's just a bit of an extra bonus, another way to look at it, if you look at them as being somehow or other -

Carolyn: Alien controlled.

Harrison: Being manipulated and influenced to act in certain ways, to achieve a certain structure, a certain social status quo that is beneficial to them, I think that's scary enough.

Elan: I think that's actually a very practical way of looking at it because you read about these things that are happening with ISIS, with the Azov battalion, with the Japanese in world war II, it's unfathomable that anyone would work this way, so then let's take it to the next step, for all intents and purposes, these individuals are aliens. They're aliens to the values of human beings who can hardly process or conceive of the type of person that can do these types of things. So, that's another way of looking at it.

Harrison: My parting thought: how does this influence take place? This is where I think parapsychology comes in, technology parapsychology perhaps; super-parapsychology, super-psi. How do you influence a person to do something? Well...

Carolyn: Heck you don't even need aliens for that, they've had ELF [extremely low frequency] weapons since the 70's, and they've got patents on them. You can go look them up!

Shane: I think this is a big, take home message, that while these ideas may be theoretical, that there are a lot of practical lessons that we can utilise, and hopefully make our lives better from it. It has so many applications. And it is interesting and it is curious and that's the basis for knowledge; to be curious about things.

Carolyn: First question is; "Isn't that weird? That's weird. I wonder what... I'm going to look at that"

Harrison: Alright. Did we cover everything in the universe?

Shane: Highlighted... (Laughter)

Carolyn: We could do a years' worth of shows on this unfortunately, depending where you want to go.

Elan: Well if we left anything out, I'm sure if we have our listeners and chatters will let us know. Or we'll cover it another time.

Carolyn: Did you want to give the names of those books again?

  • A Trojan Feast: The Food and Drink Offerings of Aliens, Faeries, and Sasquatch Paperback by Joshua Cutchin
  • Practices of power: Revisiting the Principalities and Powers in the Pauline Letters by Robert Ewusie Moses
  • Active Side of Infinity Hardcover by Carlos Castaneda
  • High Strangeness: Hyper dimensions and the Process of Alien Abduction Paperback by Laura Knight-Jadczyk
  • The Wave Series by Laura Knight-Jadczyk
  • The Mothman Prophecies by John A. Keel
  • Missing 411 - Western United States & Canada: Unexplained disappearances of North Americans that have never been solved by David Paulides
  • Hunt for the Skinwalker Paperback by Colm A. Kelleher, George Knapp
  • Morningstar Pass: The Collapse of the UFO Cover up by Victor Norgarde
Carolyn: So there's your reading list for the week!

Harrison: We're going to close out with some alien music: Atlantic Connection by Area 51. See you all next week!

All: Goodbyes.