Laura Knight-Jadczyk and Joe Quinn are interviewed by Dr. Kevin Barrett on the topics of psychopathy, political ponerology, and 9/11.


Kevin: Well this hour I'm going to be speaking with a couple of great guests, including one who's been on before but it's been a while, it's Laura Knight-Jadczyk and Joe Quinn, who are working together right now with a wonderful new magazine called The Dot Connector magazine. Laura Knight-Jadczyk is well known in the alternative information world, personally I think maybe her greatest accomplishment, that I know about at least, is helping bring to the world this incredible book Political Ponerology, written by a fellow named Lobaczewski, I'm probably butchering that name. And this is really the seminal book on political psychopathy, the fact that something 2-5% of males in the USA, different percentage in different countries, are basically born without any conscience whatsoever. These people have a tendency to rise to the top of power hierarchies with horrific results and sometimes it turns into an epidemic, gets completely out of control and we may be living through one of those times. They've done great work on other issues as well, The Dot Connector magazine, just Google it up, I think it's one of the most interesting things on news print these days. So hey, without further ado, let's welcome Joe Quinn and Laura Knight-Jadczyk. Welcome Joe and Laura.

Joe: Hi Kevin, it's good to be here.

Laura: Hi Kevin.

Kevin: Hey, great to hear you guys. So, Laura, I think you were on the show about 2 years ago as I recall?

Laura: I think so, I have a vague memory of it, I've done a number of shows, and I forget.

Kevin: I'm sure you have, you were really, really good though on that particular show, it was one of the most popular episodes.

Laura: We talked about Ponerology, didn't we?

Kevin: We sure did. Yeah, that's the book that inspired my essay Twilight of the Psychopaths, which went viral. So, your magazine Dot Connector takes on all kinds of alternative information topics, as does the website, that you guys work with. And why don't you give us a quick rundown of how you select the kinds of topics that you put up at that website and that you write about in Dot Connector?

Laura: Oh boy, that's a good one. Signs of the times started as a personal protest of my own. I went with my husband to a mathematics conference in Cookeville, Tennessee in early 2002 and I was just watching this rhetoric that was flying back and forth between George Bush and Saddam Hussein, and I was thinking to myself, this is crazy, this is absolutely crazy. And I realised that one of the problems was that people forget from one day to the next what's happened, and I could see right away that the guy was a psychopath.

Kevin: Which one, Bush?

Laura: Bush.

Kevin: Saddam may not have been a saint either.

Laura: He wasn't a saint, he was a characteropath, but Bush was really wacked. And I could see that the real problem was that people forgot from one day to the next what had been in the news. Today George Bush would say this, tomorrow the news would print that Saddam had said that, and then George Bush would say this and then Saddam would say that, and I thought this is crazy, so I started recording this on a website.

Kevin: And that was your personal battle against the memory hole, and we're going to have a couple of minutes of a memory hole as we go to commercial, but we'll be back.


Kevin: Laura you were saying that you started as a way of fighting back against the memory hole that was swallowing up evidence of Bush's psychopathy?

Laura: Yeah, it was not just collecting the articles but it was also commenting on them, because if Bush would say something today I would insert a comment saying, well wait a minute, he said this 3 days ago and here is a link to the item. And then I started also collecting them because I noticed things were beginning to disappear, the web was being scrubbed, so I began to archive the articles. So it was not only truthifying them and archiving them, it was basically collecting picture of the energy dynamic that was happening on the globe, the global political situation, so that a person could scroll through the page and get a real idea of what was really going on, that was the main thing. I called it 'signs of the times' because I was also at the same time collecting global information, such as things about earthquakes, tornados, that sort of thing, weather patterns and fireballs and meteorites and also UFO sightings, because those are interesting social phenomena. So it's kind of a combination, then we started adding health information because we started getting into the whole health issue, because we realised that the part of the whole conspiracy, I hate to say that word, but you know I am a conspiracy theorist...

Kevin: A proud conspiracy theorist.

Laura: Yeah, because conspiracy is the only reality, so I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. But the conspiracy against human beings is to make them as unhealthy as possible, because if they are unhealthy they cannot think, they cannot function, they can't resist, they can't be educated. If you're not healthy, and this is something Pavlov discovered, if there's a strong dog that doesn't want to break, he would take that dog and he would perform surgery on it or inject it with some kind of pathogen that would cause it to become ill and then he could break that dog. He was talking about the 4 temperaments and a very strong, very wilful dog that could not be broken otherwise, could be broken through its health.

So this one of the things that I noticed, is that people are being broken through their health, through their diet, through being given drugs, fluoride in the water, fluoride makes you stupid, mercury in their teeth, the whole nine yards. So, we try to cover everything that's really important to people from health to politics, to global events, geology, things that happen in the atmosphere, science and technology, and we have a special category that we call the Axis of Evil, which pretty much is about the people who are truly evil. If anybody is really evil and they're doing something that's where we categorise them.

Kevin: Well that's a wonderful catch phrase and it does fit in with the whole idea of Ponerology and political psychopathy and this idea that the psychopaths rise to the top, so I guess you have to give them their just do, by putting their faces up there.

Laura: Yeah, well what I was doing, I didn't really realise that that many people were reading it, sometimes I would get so depressed I would go to bed for a day and then I would start getting emails from people, saying, "are you sick, are you sick, what's happened?", and I realised that people were reading it and then people started helping me and sending me stuff, and right about now I think we have 50 editors around the globe, who look for the articles that we put up on the site and if necessary they go in a truthify it, sometimes we truthify it simply by changing the headline. If something is really so outrageous that anybody can see, you don't need a comment, we just put 'propaganda alert', 'psychopaths in action', something like that and then you can just read the article which is straight from the mainstream news, this is what we're dealing with, mainly mainstream news, it's not a bunch of kind of iffy, uncited material, it's what comes from the mainstream.

Kevin: Well, that's of course how so many people became alerted to the evidence against the official story of 911, was through all mainstream media reports that falsified it and they collected those at the, I guess they changed their name now, I'm thinking of the, what's that website that archives all the mainstream stories on 911, Co-operative research, they've changed their name now to, what's it called, maybe somebody will put that up on my Facebook page for me. In any case, you're right, the mainstream media reports these things once, and often spins them, and so if you can just grab that and archive it and maybe truthify it, and point to its importance...

Laura: And then they scrub it.

Kevin: Exactly, there you go, before they scrub it, right.

Laura: The amazing thing was what was being scrubbed and paying attention to what they scrubbed is a very important way to learn what it is they're thinking, or not thinking about and what they're trying to hide.

Kevin: Could you give us a couple of examples of things they've scrubbed?

Laura: Well, there was a whole lot of information around 911 that was on the web and there were articles about the Wellstone crash that disappeared and there were numbers of articles about things that happened at the time of Bush's election that disappeared. One of the most interesting things that, you know I do genealogy as a hobby, and a whole lot of genealogical information related to the Bush family disappeared from the web, just gone.

Kevin: What are they hiding in the Bush family genealogy, do you think?

Laura: Well, that's kind of funny because one of our readers had a little booklet that dated back to the revolutionary war, or it was put out about the revolutionary war, I think in World War 1, and it mentioned a George Bush who was a Jewish Captain or Major in the revolutionary army. It was just so bizarre because he sent me a photocopy of it and I published it, somebody else snagged it and wrote a kind of twisted article about it, but I thought this was really weird, because you can only go back so far and then all of the lines just disappear, it's gone from the web, gone.

Kevin: How strange, the Bush family as crypto Jews.

Laura: It's a real good possibility.

Kevin: Very strange, but I've heard all sorts of interesting and sometimes bizarre speculation about the Bush family and quite a bit of it turned out to be true. Russ Baker's recent book A Family of Secrets confirms using the best tradition of hard hitting journalism that a whole lot of the stories we've heard about the Bush family, including their participation in the JFK assassination and Bush seniors rigging of Watergate to take down Nixon, turned out to be true, so, who knows.

Laura: Well, you got to look at it this way, when you're dealing with psychopathy, you're dealing with individuals that consider normal human beings as being another species, and even if they will do unto each other before they do unto them, they still, when it comes to dealing with the average person, they will group together and they will breed together and they will marry, intermarry, look at Chelsea Clinton, geez, they clawed their way into the ranks and now they're breeding into it.

Kevin: So Laura, that leads me to a question about Ponerology and the theory about psychopaths rising to the top of power hierarchy, I think it's a really important idea, one of the most important ideas out there. In fact I'm hoping to finish a book, a book length extension of my article Twilight of the Psychopath, about this very important idea that you've done so much to publicise. But, here's the question, most of the existing work on psychopathy looks at the losers, right, the ones who ended up in jail, and some of these experts tell us that, oh these psychopaths really can't accomplish very much, because they have no attention span, they can't work with other people, therefore they're never really going to go anywhere except prison. But do you think there's a real major difference between those psychopaths, the ones who mainly get studied, the ones in captivity, verses those at the top of the power hierarchy like the Bush family?

Laura: I think there's a big difference and the main difference is the ones that get studied are the failures. Hervey Cleckley had a particular population that he was able to study, it was a hospital population, private hospital, and most of the ones that he studied were put into the hospital by their families, they weren't necessarily raving criminals, they were just ne'er-do-wells. And Robert Hare had a criminal population to study, and both of them understood that there were psychopaths that they weren't able to study. At one point they did a kind of a survey to find psychopaths that were sub-criminal, it's like a self-report, asking these questions. Well, a psychopath is going to answer a questionnaire, they're not stupid, they're going to answer so that it sounds like that there's really no psychopaths in the normal population. And that's not true, because there are other ways to discover them and there are studies that have shown that there are up to 25% of the individuals in any university, psychology course, system, have the qualities of the psychopath.

So, probably the best way to study the non-criminal psychopath is the way Hare and Babiak did in Snakes in Suits, by talking to the people around them, the people who work with them, their bosses, people who worked under them. And also Anna Salter, who wrote a book about predators, paedophiles, rapists and so forth. And Martha Stout, her Sociopath Next Door. I don't like the fact that she copped out and used the word sociopath, because come on, let's have a single word here, and know what we're talking about, because when psychologist talk about this topic to one another, they use the word 'psychopath', because they understand what they are talking about, they don't quibble around with antisocial personality disorder, sociopath etc. They call it a psychopath.

Kevin: It's the same thing, it's just the lens you're looking through, if you're looking at the behaviour, purely behaviour, it's a sociopath, if you're looking at the person as a person, it's a psychopath, right?

Laura: Well, a psychopath is more than behaviour, a psychopath is an internal landscape, because the behaviour can be completely hidden. And actually, the main thing that describes it is Cleckley's term, 'mask of sanity'. They are completely masked, they appear to be so sane, so normal, so healthy, so wholesome, so without stresses, without neurosis, without anxieties, they're like the ultimate normal person. And then Robert Hare describes what was behind that mask, which is Without Conscience, and then of course Hare and Babiak, with their title of their book, Snakes in Suits. So you got a snake in a suit who is without conscience, the suit of course is the mask of sanity. It's really fascinating, I've had an opportunity to study several of them up close, the successful kind, and it's been just really fascinating.

Kevin: I agree, but the thing is, like in Cleckley's book, which is the original one, The Mask of Sanity, that really opened up the field, the people that he studied, even though they wore those masks, you can't imagine most of those people ever really succeeding very well or setting up an elite bloodline that was going to rule the world, these people are really major league losers, who just sabotage themselves and do outrageous things that bring them down. And so there must be something different about these people.

Laura: Well, Cleckley also wrote about people that he knew in the community, that he knew were psychopaths, but were successful and did not end up in his office. He wrote about the psychopath physician, the psychopath psychologist, he wrote about some successful ones in there, but he wasn't able to get, to put together, quite the in-depth study that he was able to put for his other subjects, because they were not his patients. He was only able to know by the grapevine, know by what family members told him, to know by their actions, different things like that that they clearly were psychopathic.

Joe: I think an important point to consider is that psychopaths aren't a segment of the normal population, like the bad end of the normal human population, but they're more likely to be a sub-species.

Laura: A separate taxons.

Joe: Right, there's a full range of psychopaths, or there's the same full range of psychopaths as there is in the normal human community, in terms of intellect or ability etc.

Laura: And aspirations, it's quite a sampling from what we've seen.

Kevin: Right, and another question then would be, to what extent are psychopaths people who, is this population completely cut off and identifiable as a separate group, in what extent are they just calling psychopaths people who score at a certain level on this test, and somebody who scores just below that level, may be normal, but they may not be somebody that you would want to trust your life with?

Laura: Yeah, well the problem is between traits because you can say that a person could be really violently criminal and not be a psychopath. They're somebody who was born normal, who is very damaged, very abused, and had a lot of problems and maybe even some kind of chemical imbalances in their brain, but they're not a psychopath. And on the other hand you can have the most normal, and there have been so many examples, so many examples coming out in the news in the past several years that we have been paying attention to. For example a judge down in Australia, who was considered to be a philanthropist and who initiated action to protect women and children from abuse and so forth, turns out that all the things that he was agitating or activisting against were the things that he was doing. Priests for example, for crying all night, you go around and you wear this cassock and your dog collar and then you're diddling little boys in the back room?

Kevin: Yeah, there seems to be a tendency for some of them to move right into those roles, that should be the protector roles and it turns out to be the fox guarding the henhouse. Hey we do have a caller, it's Cathy calling from California, welcome Cathy, how are you?

Cathy (caller): Hi, how are you doing Kevin today? I agree with what she's saying, how with the news items that get stuck under the rug and websites disappear, I don't know if you are familiar but in Waco they had that massacre of course, the sheriff there, they lived there since 1959, they were peace loving people, and he never had any problems from the Davidian group at all, they were not a cult, they had their religion and they kept to themselves. And then, that article has disappeared and now he is dead.

Kevin: Well I think that the Waco incident is a classic example of cognitive dissonance where the authorities turn out to be psychopaths, if you see the movie Waco: Rules of Engagement, you see that the elite cops that they brought in to put down the Waco thing were complete psychopaths and they just burned those people alive. We'll be back in a moment.


Kevin: I'm sure you guys are familiar with the movie Waco: Rules of Engagement and the indications that these elite Special Forces people that they brought in to burn to death these people at Waco, sure as heck looked like psychopaths.

Laura: Yes, but I think there's a bigger issue here, and I think the issue is to change people's perception of the word 'cult', and to make it seem to be completely unhealthy. It was not just Waco, but it was also Jones Town, the Peoples Temple, and then there was the, what were those crazy people in California, the 48 people, the Hale Bop people, Heaven's Gate. And then the Solar Temple. It's to change people's perception, because then they can, it's just like changing the perception of the word 'conspiracy theorist'. Conspiracy theorist, when you get accused of that, you feel your heart rate increase because you know what other people think about that word, and the same thing with cult, because it's like you get accused of that and we have been accused of that because we have certain ideas and we are a group, and we adhere to those ideas and we follow certain principles about news reporting and the very fact that we talk about psychopathy the way we do gets us accused of being a cult.

Kevin: Well, count me as a member of your cult Laura. [laughter]

Laura: Well yeah, but this is what it was all about, it was to make people think that if you're a cult, you're really, really dangerous. And they pushed that so hard, and those poor people, they really did nothing wrong, nothing wrong, period, end of story. But in the minds of the majority of the people, and here's the problem. We've got alternative news, we've got alternative radio, we've got alternative this that and the other thing, but still, the majority of the people are not tuned into that, they're still watching FOX, they're still watching CNN, and they're still reading the New York Times or their local daily newspaper. All of those things are controlled by a media conglomerate, they're listening to Clear Stream radio channels, and it's all controlled by a media conglomerate that spins everything in a particular way. And this is something that I keep telling people, if you want to effect a change, you have to take back the media, it's not enough to just have alternative media, at some point at some date at some time, they're going to have to take back the media, just like V did in V for Vendetta, he goes into the studio and he plugs in his CD and he broadcasts all over the world or all over the country on the mainstream media. And ultimately this is what is going to have to happen one of these days.

Kevin: I've tried to do that, I've done all sorts of provocation which has gotten me a bit of face time on the mainstream media as they try to demonise me, but of course they are going to always try to paint us as crazy cultists.

Laura: Exactly! They've got this word and they created that in advance just so they would have... psychopaths are not stupid, in a certain way they're extremely cunning.

Kevin: Well they have to spend their whole lives studying how normal people react emotionally to things and what makes normal people tick, in order just to get by. And I think that some of them put that kind of knowledge that they accumulate over a whole lifetime of studying normal people to use into manipulating normal people.

Laura: Sure, they have motivation masters who sit up at night, to figure out how to convince people to do this, do that or do the other thing, spin words, how to control words. It's like 1984, I mean, geez.

Kevin: Right. So hey Joe you haven't said a whole lot, why don't you come on and tell us how did you get involved in the Dot Connector and what have you been doing before that?

Joe: Well, I've been working with Laura and others on Signs of the Times for about 7 years, so I've been editing articles and writing articles for the website, and just recently, as you know, we decided we wanted to publish a magazine. The reasons for that are we wanted to diversify a little bit, but we also realised that, as you just said, there really aren't any quality magazines that have a high level of truth in them and we wanted to fill that gap, and we think we're doing a pretty good job.

Kevin: The magazine looks really good. Have you managed to get any kind of mainstream distribution yet?

Joe: We're working on it right now, so kind of watch this space, I suppose.

Kevin: Ok, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing the Dot Connector over at Borders and Barnes & Noble and places like that.

Joe: We're working on it.

Kevin: If they can put paranoia magazines there, I would think they could get you guys in there easily.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely. The focus of the magazine is, it covers quite a lot of topics, but one of the main topics is health, and Laura mentioned a little bit about that at the beginning, a need for healthy bodies, in order to have a healthy mind, being able to understand our reality, and see lies from truth. Because if you're sick, you can't do any of that stuff, and that's part of the control system right now, is to keep people sick.

Another major aspect that we focus on is history, and the hidden history of the last, maybe, couple of hundred years, going back even further sometimes, because understanding the truth about history is crucial to understanding what's happening in the world today. People don't know what really happened in history and they have no way to interpret what's going on now.

For example, right now, I would say most people in the US and in Western Europe at least, have no idea that America, for example, is simply a reincarnation of the British Empire. That America, the American elite, the psychopaths in power are bent on world domination. If people understood that and understood that that has been the way things have played out in history over the past 300-400 years, with the British Empire, up until the beginning of the 20th century, then with the American government creating an empire and expanding around the world, if people understood that, they would understand a lot more easily, what is going on in the world today. They wouldn't be so confused about idea that America is a benevolent power trying to spread freedom and democracy. If they understood that it was about empire, about controlling the world, then things would become very clear, as would 911, for example.

Kevin: Well that raises the issue of which alternative information issues are the ones that we should be promoting the most and devoting the most attention to. I personally have been working probably the most on the 911 truth issue, although I'm also very interested in Ponerology, political psychopathy. The reason I looked at 911 is because, I've been trained in academia where we're supposedly taught critical thinking, and how to sift through evidence using reason, and with 911 it's just so clear, when you sit down and take an honest look at the evidence, it becomes overwhelmingly obvious to any fair minded person that there's just a massive problem with the official story and everything's pointing towards a false flag operation.

There are very few other issues that are that clear and some of these other issues may be extremely important at some level. For instance the UFO issue, clearly if these UFO sightings down through the years are what they appear to have been, then there's something really interesting going on in the world that we don't really know about. But, again, the evidence is so mixed and you have to sift through so much evidence to try to figure out what's going on with UFO's. It's true with many other issues, whereas with 911 it's just a no brainer, and therefore I figure that I can get more people to wake up by talking about 911. Did you guys follow a similar path of reasoning in picking your issues?

Laura: Well we thought about it, we thought that that was a good way to approach it, 911, it was so obvious. And then we began to realise that there was this vast majority of people that just simply couldn't go there, and there are brain chemistry reasons for that, it has to do with reward systems in the brain, and how you were brought up. If you were brought up in a certain milieu and people think and believe in a certain way, to step out of that belief system or out of that milieu, actually causes pain in the brain, you get brain chemicals that get secreted in your brain, neurotransmitters that actually cause you to feel very, very bad. And then if you find a way to correct that, to rationalise away the facts that you're having to look at and say, oh well, it's ok because here's another explanation for it, in other words, substitution selection of the premises, then you feel ok again.

So studying and understanding brain chemistry, and this was written in Barbara Oakley's book, what is it, something about evil genes, Why Rome Fell, Hitler Rose, Enron Failed, and My Sister Stole My Mother's Boyfriend, that was the title of the book, it's a great book. And she has some of the latest neurological, cognitive science research in there.

So people, they actually have a reason why they can't go there and they can't believe, because we're brought up to believe that our leaders have our best interests at heart, like our church, our presidents and our congressman. You stand up from the time you're a little kid and in the US and you say the pledge of allegiance to the flag, and the president comes on the air and they play hail to the chief, you go to a parade, stars and stripes come by and everybody stands up and crosses their heart and blah blah blah. So you're conditioned this way so that when somebody comes along and says to you, "your leaders have done this to you," they cannot go there because it hurts their brain.

Kevin: That explains a lot about why sometimes when I tell people that 911 was an inside job, suddenly the person looks like that Edward Munch painting, The Scream. [laughter]

Laura: Yeah and that's exactly what's going on. And say that 60-70%, maybe 80% of the population is this way, they are so programmed, Pavolvian programming, that probably the best way to approach the topic is to have them understand psychopathy first, because then if they really start to understand that psychopaths rise to the top, congressman, presidents, doctors, lawyers, judges, policeman, they're all likely to be psychopaths, and if you can get that over and over again and really get that into their heads, then, they can grok 911.

Kevin: But Laura, that's even a scarier idea that 911 was an inside job, isn't it?

Laura: Well, is it a scarier idea? It scares to hell out of me.

Kevin: Speaking of which, I haven't talked about this much on the radio if at all but, last year was it, a year and a half ago, John Ronson, the author of the Men Who Stare at Goats and some other quite amusing books, approached me, actually found me on Skype and called me up and invited me to come along with him on his project which was going to be about this idea that psychopaths rise to the top. He'd read Twilight of the Psychopaths, my essay, and he suggested that he and I go around the world interviewing billionaires and royal family members and so on, and we approach these people and say, "hi, we're looking for that secret something behind your success, we're doing these little psychological tests, would you do a little test with us," and of course it would be a psychopathy test, and so he would be looking for empirical evidence that the top people in the world are psychopaths. I think he was doing this as a sort of joke, but in any case it never got off the ground, it hasn't been done but, you know, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

Laura: No, if you could pull it off, but there are people like Sandra Brown, she's trying to work with women, trying to get women to wake up, just on the personal level. And we've got a little discussion group with several other people who are working with women who have been victimised by psychopaths. Maybe if some of these woman wake up to what's really going on in their own lives, then they can look at it and extrapolate it out to the rest of the world, they might be able to begin to see and then teach their children. But we don't have that kind of time, that's the bad thing, we don't have that kind of time to deal with things, people have got to wake up faster or they're toast.

Kevin: Absolutely, with the communications media that we have available now, and the knowledge that's been generated, theoretically it should be possible to get out there and create a new culture that would prevent psychopaths from rising to the top, that's the upside of my essay as well. We'll be back in a moment.


What should my listeners know about what we can do to try to change this sad situation we're in with psychopaths in power, pulling off things like the 911 inside job?

Laura: Well, I think the first thing that I would like to suggest to everybody, we've created a program that utilises stress reduction techniques, breathing techniques and it also includes a guided meditation that helps you provide affirmations that help you to overcome some of this programming signals that are in your brain, that open you up to seeing the truth, hearing the truth, understanding the truth and it also gives you some peace and equanimity in terms of dealing with daily reality. And we need people who are able to be peaceful, who are able to be open and who are able to deal with the world in a reasonable way, and to share this program with their loved ones, because everybody needs a technique that will help them instantly reduce their stress. It's a vagal nerve stimulation program, so we'd like to get everybody doing this and sharing it with all their friends and neighbours and loved ones, because it's one way to get in the back door, open things up, open people's minds.

Kevin: Tell me a little bit more about how this program works, is this a relaxation guided meditation technique?

Laura: Well, there is a guided meditation at the end of it, it's more like a prayer, we call it a prayer, but it's really a series of affirmations about being able to see and hear and understand what's really going on in the real world. But mainly it involves some semi-yogic techniques, but we think they're a lot more ancient than yoga and they've been cast in a more western terminology. The main part of the program is a system of vagal nerve stimulation, because if your vagus nerve gets stimulated it activates your parasympathetic nervous system which counters stress. And this is something, if David Ray Griffin is still in the hospital and sick, this is something he could definitely use and get some almost instantaneous results.

We've got thousands of people already doing the program and they're having remarkable results and they're sharing it with their family members and friends, their loved ones. We've got people with chronic illnesses using it, we've got all kinds of people just trying this program. And it's really making a huge difference, in the way they think even, because it's clearing their brains, and this is so important, you have to have your brain clear to be able to understand what's going on. If you've got the copy of the recent issue of Dot Connector you'll see an ad in there for it, it's the Éiriú Eolas stress reduction healing and rejuvenation program.

Joe: Just to clarify that it's a breathing program, there's no postures, yogic postures or anything difficult like that, it's based mainly on breathing, so it's something that anybody can do.

Laura: You can do it laying in your bed, if you're old a decrepit, if you're 95 years old and in a wheelchair, if you're paraplegic, you can do it, anybody can do it. It just has to do with 3 breathing techniques and they are so simple, once you get the hang of it, anybody can do it, and it's miraculous.

Joe: We'll send you a copy Kevin and you can try it out.

Kevin: Sounds good, I'd love to. I do believe in the importance of relaxation and meditation, I used to practise Zen meditation and then came to Islam and started doing Islamic meditation, not just the 5 times daily prayer, which is a form of sort of yogic meditation with postures, but also some chanting and breathing meditation that I learned in Morocco from the Sufis. And then more recently I've been juicing that up with this binaural beat meditation which guides your brainwaves into a very deep meditative state by putting different tones in each ear.

Laura: Yeah, I've don't that years ago.

Kevin: So all of these things I think are pretty important, because I know that if I'm doing that, my ability to cope with stress is much, much higher than if I'm not, so you're absolutely right about what you're saying.

Laura: Well this one is going to knock your socks off because there's a technique you can do when you're driving your car, if you have just had a road rage incident, you can employ this technique right there, right then and deal with it, it's amazing.

Kevin: Well that's really interesting, the kinds of meditation I've done you wouldn't want to do while you're driving. [laughter]

Laura: This has a technique you can use sitting at your desk, driving your car, you can use it a football game or flying in an airplane. We're working on a situation where we're going to try to get it into Airbus so the Airbus employees can actually teach it to passengers to control their stress while they're on planes. It's a really simple technique, you do like 20 breaths in this very specific way and instantly knock out your stress.

Kevin: Wow, if people had all known how to do this on 911 instead of sitting there staring at the television freaking out, having their heart rates racing to infinity, being brainwashed, they all could of, instead, just turned off the TV, turned away, sat down, done some meditation, gotten into a clear state of mind and we wouldn't be living in this fascist nightmare that has come over us.

Laura: Exactly!

Kevin: Well thank you Laura Knight-Jadczyk and Joe Quinn, it's been wonderful. I appreciate your great work.

Joe: Thanks for having us.