ufos
UFO sightings. Alien abduction accounts. These topics have been so fraught with misinformation, sensationalism and pure speculation over the years that to learn what is actually occurring can be a very difficult undertaking even under the best of circumstances. There are a few out there who succeed in doing so.

Joining us for this episode of The Truth Perspective is retired Professor of History David M. Jacobs, author of such well-known titles as The UFO Controversy in America, Secret Life and The Threat. In his most recent book, Walking Among Us: The Alien Plan to Control Humanity, Dr. Jacobs takes his research another step further and presents his latest findings and conclusions about the alien presence here on Earth.

In his well-grounded and concrete style, Dr. Jacobs goes into detail to explain the rigors of his study, as well as how he has come to understand this topic of topics. If you have ever wondered what the truth about aliens was, you'll want to listen in!

The Truth Perspective is brought to you by the SOTT Radio Network and SOTT, your one-stop source for independent, unbiased, alternative news and commentary on world events.

Running Time: 02:08:50

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Here's the transcript of the show:

Elan: Hello everyone. It's Sunday, May 8th and welcome to this edition of The Truth Perspective. I'm your host Elan Martin and joining me in the studio today are fellow SOTT editors Shane Lachance.

Shane: Hello everybody.

Elan: Corey Schink.

Corey: Welcome back everyone.

Elan: And Harrison Koehli.

Harrison: Good to be here.

Elan: We'd just like to wish a very happy Mother's Day to all you moms out there today. Where would we be without you? We're very happy to have with us on The Truth Perspective today, Dr. David M. Jacobs. Dr. Jacobs was a professor at Temple University for 36 years where he taught the only course on UFOs that I think have been taught nationally in the US. He has for several decades been researching the subject quite in-depth, of UFOs, extraterrestrials and their presence here on earth. We can easily say that few in this field have been asking the hard questions and digging for answers for as long and as rigorously as David Jacobs.

He's the author of such well known titles as The UFO Controversy in America, Secret Life and The Threat. His most recent book is entitled Walking Among Us - The Alien Plan to Control Humanity. Welcome to the show David.

David: Thank you for having me.

Elan: Thank you for being on with us today and for writing another fascinating and deeply distressing book about malevolent aliens. For those who've never read any of your books or know who you are, can you just tell us about your background and how you've gotten into this field of research, maybe giving us a sense of your progression into it since you've been looking into it for so long?

David: Well I got interested in the UFO phenomenon in 1965 so I've been involved with UFO research in one way or another for half a century. I was an undergraduate at UCLA when I got interested in it and as a graduate student I went to the University of Wisconsin and I was even more interested in it there as I began to realize "This is real. This is happening. This is something that is astounding and amazing and this might be contact between different cultures from different worlds." I was thrilled and I joined the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization and I became a field investigator for them and examined cases in the Madison, Wisconsin area and all that and sent in my reports.

Eventually I joined the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomenon. Some years later I joined MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network I should say. So it's been a part of my life and my research interest since I was basically, as I look back on it, a kid, since I was very young. I'm still doing it although I must say that watching television has overtaken all of my interests these days. But I think I'm at the end of my research on the subject. I've gone as far as I can go, to tell you the truth.

So I kept at it. I wrote a master's thesis at the University of Wisconsin on the introduction of Freudian ideas into the American psychological and psychiatric community between 1909 and 1929 but even though I wrote that I was still reading everything I could read about UFOs and I determined in those days that I would read every book ever written about UFOs, which was actually possible in the mid-60s or late 60s even. Now of course it's impossible. There are literally thousands of books out on UFOs and abductions.

I wound up writing my dissertation ultimately and actually started a dissertation on the image of women in early film history, pre-1915. I did about six months of research on that and then eventually switched topics to the controversy over unidentified flying objects and I stuck with it ever since then and started giving talks about it. So that's sort of how I began. I did my first radio and television show, then first talk to a group in 1972. It all came along at the same time, got my PhD in '73 and the rest is history, as they say. So I've kept at it for most of my adult life.

Shane: So at what point did you start using hypnosis as a means of looking into this phenomenon?

David: Well I've told this story many times so I'll bore your audience by telling it again. I got a job at the University of Nebraska where I taught for a year and then I got a job at Temple where I taught for 36 years. I had read early on some books about abductions; Barney and Betty Hill's story, Interrupted Journey, and the Andreasson Affair by Ray Fowler. It was interesting. Betty Hill came to visit me in 1976 when my wife and I had just moved to Philadelphia. We moved here in 1975 but she came to visit me in '76 and took me out to West Philadelphia where Barney's sister was living and I met Barney's sister. It turns out that Barney's son had graduated from Temple University just the year before I came. He graduated in '74 and I came in '75.

I talked with Betty quite a bit about what the aliens looked like. That was everybody's favourite question. "What do they look like?" I asked her the same questions like "When they moved their arms did they have elbows?" Things like that, the most basic things imaginable.

And yet at the same time a couple of cases did not a pattern make. We also knew of another case, the first case was Antônio Vilas-Boas case in Brazil. He was an illiterate Brazilian peasant who claimed to be taken aboard a UFO and had a lot of procedures done to him and then forced to have sex with a human-looking alien of some sort. I just didn't know about that and I became less interested actually as a few years went on.
In 1981 I was at a conference set up by my friend Allen Hynek who was the dean of UFO researchers at that time and who wrote the introduction to my first book. I gave a paper there as I remember and there was a guy named Budd Hopkins who was going to give really the first paper by a serious researcher to an audience of scientists and so forth. And I thought to myself "I don't want to hear this guy Hopkins. I'm not that interested in the abduction phenomenon and it just doesn't sit right with me." So I went out into the hallway with a friend of mine, Marcello Chiusi who was a professor of sociology at Eastern Michigan University who was a humour specialist. He knew every joke ever uttered by every human on earth since the beginning of time.

So I went out in the hallway rather than listening to Budd Hopkins and laughed for an hour. Then when he was done I came back in and listened to other papers. I wasn't interested. A year later in 1982 a friend of mine, Tracy Tormé who is a Hollywood writer and director, did Fire in the Sky and other movies, called me up. He was in New York. He told me he found where the office that led the conspiracy from the government's cover up of the UFOs but he couldn't tell me on the phone because they might be listening and all that. So I went up to New York and we sat on a bench in Central park and he told me his idea of where the conspiracy was from, which was from the US Coast and Geodetic Survey Office and never made it into the top ranks of guilty offices.

Anyway, so after we talked about this for a while, he said to me "I'm going over to Budd Hopkins. Come on over with me." And I said "I'm not interested in that Tracy. I don't want to do that." And he said "No, he's a nice guy. You'll like him. He's an okay guy." "Oh no, no Tracy." He said "Come on, come on. I've got a cab right here." He pulls this cab over and I said "Ooookay! Okay, okay." So we go over to 16th Street between 7th and 8th Avenue so the cab driver lets us off at the corner of 8th Avenue and 16th Street and Tracy had forgotten the address so we had to start looking on doors with buttons on them and doorbells to see if the name Hopkins was on any of them and we found it. And down comes Budd Hopkins. Of course I didn't say anything about the fact that I had walked out on his talk the year before.

We come into his house and the first thing that made my jaw hit the floor was a Degas drawing on his wall and a Cézanne drawing on his wall and a Renoir drawing on his wall. I'm looking at paintings by Rothko, by Franz Kline, by Hans Hofmann and I did not realize that he was an artist. I'm looking at his own art which is excellent, just wonderful. I knew a little bit about art, so I knew what I was looking at. It turns out that Hopkins was a member of what later became known as the New York School of Art, all these artists who lived together, knew each other, all were friends with each other, Jackson Pollock, on and on and on, and he was the youngest member among them. He'd come from Oberlin College where he'd graduated from in 1953, moved to New York and he bought this house in 1958. He and another person owned half the house each and the woman lived upstairs and he lived downstairs. So he owned the house in a way in New York City which is sort of astonishing these days.

The first thing he did was he got my first book out The UFO Controversy and he had me sign it for him and I knew he was a person of discriminating taste at that point. He was extremely charming, extremely nice and extremely intelligent. We stayed for about an hour and chatted and then it was time to leave. We went downstairs and were standing on a little walkway that led out to the sidewalk. So he asked me "What are you doing this summer?" And I said "Well we just had a baby and we usually go up to Bar Harbour, Maine for vacation but it's too long a drive so we're going to a little town in Cape Cod. Now this was a town nobody ever heard of. I said "There's a little town called Wellfleet. We'd been there the year before and we're going to go up there again this year." He said "Wellfleet! I own a house in Wellfleet! I'm in Wellfleet from June through October every year!" He says "When you come up there look me up" and he gave me his phone number and all the rest of that stuff up there. And of all things that was sort of astounding because even now people have not heard of Wellfleet, a highly charged, intellectual, artistic, academic community.

So I looked him up when we went up there and he introduced me to abductees. I'd never met an abductee before except Betty Hill of course. I had never been involved with it. He sucked me into his circle, is what it boiled down to. I came back to Temple University after the vacation and I was director of the American studies program at the time and I called up Allen Hynek and I said "Alan I think this guy Hopkins has something. I think he's on to something here. This might be something important." And he said "No David, stick with UFOs. Don't go there. Don't go to the abduction stuff. You just stick with UFOs." I said "I don't know Alan. I think he's on to something here." So Allen told me again not to do it. If I had an ounce of brains in my body I would have taken his advice but I didn't and I started going up to New York and watching Budd's hypnosis and sitting in on sessions and learning how to do hypnosis and all the rest of that stuff.

It took me four years - this was '82 - and in '86 I began to do my own abduction research and Budd became my closest and dearest friend all the way until his death in 2011. We talked on the phone every day for the first five years I must say, sort of astonishing. So he was obviously extremely influential in my doing this kind of work. So that's how I got interested in it, through a series of mishaps.

Elan: David, can you explain the process of hypnosis for folks who are not so familiar with it and why you believe it's a valid and productive form of investigation into abductee experiences?

David: Well hypnosis by actual, scientific evaluation, is one one-billionths of an inch away from being totally fraudulent altogether. It is the stupidest damn thing. All it is, is words. I will do an induction and a person's lying on a little day bed in my inner room and they're lying down there and I'm in a chair and I've got my feet on a radiator in my 1880 house and there's a coffee table between us and there's a chair and if they bring somebody they sit in the chair. The person who's sitting in the chair hears everything I'm saying and is not hypnotized so-to-speak and the person who's lying on the couch hears everything I'm saying and is hypnotized. Now how do you figure that? If you want to be hypnotized, you will be.

My hypnosis is simple relaxation techniques, that's all. I copied what Budd was doing and he learned how to do it from a psychologist, which is just going through your different muscle groupings from your feet up to your head and down again and then going into a special place down 10 steps or something, each time feeling more and more relaxed. And then I start asking questions.

Sometimes people say "David, I don't think I'm hypnotized" and I'll say "It doesn't matter. Just close your eyes. It doesn't matter" and it doesn't. And I start asking questions in a certain way. I must say I ask questions in the present tense and they're just relaxed and they can focus in and start remembering. It doesn't work for everybody. I've had a couple of people, in fact I'm working with one right now, who it's just not working with. Of the 150 or 160 people I've worked with over the years, which is not a whole lot considering that I've done this for 30 years, but I work with them over long periods of time and sometimes for decades, but for most people it works. So far for 2-1/2 people - I still have another session with this other woman - it hasn't worked.

So for the majority of people it does work. Why it works, I don't know. They're not supposed to remember these things. It's not like remembering a licence plate number, forensic hypnosis or things like that. Memories are stored not in their short-term memory, which is apparently blocked in some way, but in their long-term memory. And they have not remembered it ever. It's not remembered from the time they come back from an abduction, so they're remember it for the first time, which is extraordinary, which is unusual.

And the other thing about this memory situation is, once they remember it, it begins to degrade like normal memories. So people say "Oh, hypnosis. You're leading people. You're saying things that make them say this and make them say that." The answer is no, that is not true. Not true. In fact a lot of things that I hear from people, I don't want them to say! I hate to hear it. But the fact is though, that once it gets into normal memory, once it begins to degrade just like normal memory does, they'll tell me the story of what happened to them, an event that we did, say a couple of years before, and they'll get it wrong, interestingly enough. It's just like normal memory because it's the first time they've ever remembered it.

So the whole concept of doing this work is really unusual in a sense. Now having said that, they're betraying a trust. They are doing something that - now I'm going to use the word, I hate to say it - that aliens don't want them to do. The aliens tried to get them to not remember and stop doing it, stop remembering if they are, and they put pressure on them. One time I was dealing with a guy who had a PhD and we were doing our 10th session together. I don't charge any money. Anybody can stop anytime they want to. It's their lives, not mine. So in the middle of the 10th session he sat bolt upright on this daybed thing and he said "I'm not supposed to be telling you this." And that was it. He stopped and he never came back. They had gotten to him. That happens every once in a while. These being who don't want them to talk about this prevail and that's it.

But it's just simple relaxation techniques to reiterate this. If a person wants to be hypnotized they will be. If they don't want to be, they won't be, ultimately. Sometimes it just doesn't work but most of the time, 95% of the time, 98% of the time, whatever it is, it does work and people do remember. Now memory is tricky, especially in this phenomenon. You're not supposed to remember and here's the problem. I'll just blurt this out. All communication aboard a UFO is telepathic. I'm using the word all and I'm probably going to be wrong. It's probably 99.9%. But just bear with me.

The problem is when you ask them "Well what do you mean by telepathic? Are you hearing words? Are you hearing grunts and squeaks that you're translating into words?" They'll say "Well I'm hearing words. They're just telling me I have to get up on a table or whatever." Here's the problem. The problem is what is to prevent them from remembering their own thoughts about what's happening to them and not information that's coming from the outside into them, but just coming from their own brains? And the answer to that is nothing prevents that at all. It happens all the time and here's where people get really angry now. It happens by far most with consciously remembered incident.

So if a person tells me "I remember this. This happened to me and that happened to me and this happened to me and that happened to me" and I always say "Oh, that's very interesting. We'll do a session on that and we'll check that out." Invariably they got things wrong, they skipped things, they put their own thoughts into it and didn't realize it. They got things backwards. There's all sorts of problems and I just lump it under the one term of confabulation. It's confabulations. It's absolutely at its peak unconscious memory although everybody thinks that it's best when they're not conscious memories because then you don't have to go through hypnosis and all that.

So those are the best ones. In fact they're the worst ones in terms of accuracy. It's still there in the first session. It's less in the second session. By the third session they begin to get it. They have to be very, very careful about what they're saying and how they're saying it and have to listen very carefully to my questions. In the fourth session it's gone. We're all onboard with the same sense of going through an event chronologically and logically. In other words, if they're on a table, they have to get off the table. How do you get off the table? See what I mean? They can't just say "Well I'm in another room now." I won't allow that. They have to tell me how they got off the table and they have to tell me how they walked out and they have to tell me whether they went straight out of the room or left or right. It has to be chronological and logical and by the time they learn how to do that you get really, really good, serious accounts of what's happening.

I've prided myself in that actually. That's a long, long answer to a very short question.

Shane: When people first come to you, do they usually have some conscious memories or feelings or dreams and how do you select who you're going to be working with?

David: Good question. They know that they have led odd lives that other people haven't led. Now let's just say that everybody I'm talking about has a PhD, an MD, an LLD, or is a university professor of some sort or whatever. I've worked with them and I've worked with people who've dropped out of school very young and everybody in the middle. But this is a situation whereby people who have a lot to lose come to me as well.
What was the first part of your question?

Shane: Do people come with any memories of these experiences?

David: Right. They fill out a questionnaire on my website. That's the first part. I usually tend to take people who are desperate to find out. The phenomenon is interfering with their lives. They know that they're having these odd experiences. They wake up one day and they're outside their house and the house is locked from the inside. This is not uncommon. That is not going to happen to anybody on this earth who is not an abductee because if the house is locked from the inside and you need a key, there's ways in which it's impossible. Let's put it that way.

I had one woman who had to take a baseball bat that was in her back yard and break open a patio door to get back into her house. I had a guy who was abducted from a dorm room and he was let go in the grass near the dorm itself. He had to get back upstairs. It was chain locked inside. His roommate was there. "Open the door!" as he pounded on it and his jaw fell open because they lived on the 10th floor. He didn't drop out of the window. And the abductee was outside. How can that happen?

So they know something is wrong. Odd things have happened to them. The people who say things like that or who remember being on a table or who remember opening their eyes in their bedroom and there's aliens around it, that usually does not happen to people who are not abductees. They fill out this questionnaire. If it's gotten in the way of their life, if it's destroying their life, if they're ruminating on it every minute of every day, those are the people who I tend to take because my job then is to not only find out what's happening but to help them get their lives in order. They sign a release saying I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a hypnotherapist. I'm just some jerk off the street and I'll do the best I can but I can't promise anything and all that sort of stuff.

But the way I look at it is these people are suffering under this situation. Their lives are being ruined and I get them to the point where they come enough times, they know enough about it and then they don't care anymore. They get on with their lives. They know they're going to be abducted over and over and over again. It happens with great rapidity [should be repetition?] for most of their lives and they don't care. They just want to get on with their normal lives now knowing full well that they are abductees. And when that happens I feel I've won a victory. This is good. This is fine. I have gotten them back on the straight and narrow in terms of leading their own life even though they're abductees. It sounds kind of crazy. I know that, but that's what I work for.

Obviously I'm looking for information as well and trying to figure out what's happening to everybody. That's how. People get in touch with me. I don't call anybody. They have to call me. I give them my phone number if I decide I might want to work with them. I give them warnings about what could happen. They're dire warnings about suddenly feeling isolated and if they talk about this in their workplace they will be fired eventually if they keep talking about it. And that's happened enough times so that I have to warn people. And if they tell their family members that they're an abductee the people will think that they've got a psychological or psychiatric problem and try to line them up with a specialist who can straighten them out. And I tell them that this disbelief and trying to help them is normal. It's good. It's loving. But you have to remember that's going to happen because anybody who says they're abducted by aliens from another planet has obviously got mental problems.

So they are aware of that and I give them all these warnings and there's a warning of depression that might come up also after the first session. There can be depression and they have to be aware of that. Everything turns out hopefully for the best if they stick with me for long enough.

Corey: Well just to get an idea of the scale of this thing Dr. Jacobs, in your book The Threat you write about a poll that you and I think an associate conducted and delivered it to a representative number of Americans. Could you just tell us about the number of people who are showing signs of being abducted?

David: Right. This was a poll taken in 1991. Budd Hopkins and I put it together with the help of Ron Westrom and then John Mack who was a psychiatry at Harvard put it in an essay when the book was published with its numbers in it. It was of 5,800 people across the country over the age of 18. This was clipboard in hand primarily. It wasn't a robo-call type of situation, not in 1991. This is done through the Roper organization which is now no longer in existence. But we asked them a series of questions. When the answers came back we looked through those numbers and we realized the poll probably could have been stronger and better but '91 was still relatively early on and the numbers were too high.

We knew that of the 10 questions that were asked, that we just couldn't go forward with those numbers. The numbers of people who might have abductions were just huge, 15% or something like that. It's craziness.

Corey: Yeah.

David: So we cooked the numbers down.

Corey: Wow!

David: There were 10 questions. We divided them into the five lower indicator questions and five higher indicator questions and they had to answer "yes" to four of the five higher indicator questions to make the poll. That meant they could answer "yes" to eight questions and not make the final statistics. Now we got it down to two percent of the American public which made national news because two percent of 300 million people is six million. In other words the numbers are crazy. And it isn't two percent. My guess is - and this is guess, this is not based on anything - but my guess is it's upwards of five percent and five percent is 30 million people in the United States.

Now here's the problem. This is a global phenomenon. It is not an American phenomenon. It is happening all around the world. Budd Hopkins and I have worked with people from Asia, from Africa, from Latin America, from Australia, whatever, and it's all around the world. We can't think about this as an American phenomenon. We can't think of just the American aspect of it. The interesting thing is, is that everybody is saying the same thing around the world. They are inventing a scenario - if you do not believe that this is happening - they are inventing a scenario which is not well known at all, even with my writings and Budd's writings and other people's writing, not well known at all, giving the same details, talking about the same instruments, let's just say, that are used, all around the world, regardless of geography, regardless of education level, regardless of anything, regardless of religion. It does not matter.

They're all saying the same thing around the world only about this. If this is not happening, it's astounding! It is one of the more astounding things that we have ever discovered in the history of neurology because they're all saying the same thing in the same detail around the world about one subject and they all know it's crazy to say it. And yet they're all saying it. It's astounding if it's not happening.

Harrison: David, you make that point in the book, I believe in the first chapter because there are several kind of debunking explanations for the abduction phenomena. If any of those were true, then you would think or conclude that if it's confabulation, people would come up with differing stories to some degree. You just don't find that when you actually look into it and look at the actual abductees' experiences. Not only that, when you're looking into it - I lost my train of thought on that one.

David: Welcome to my world.

Harrison: Yeah. Must be some limbic resonance going on. It's really an absurd situation because you do find even with tiny details, things that you would not expect people to confabulate and if they were confabulating you wouldn't expect other people to do it on a consistent and regular basis, crossing national boundaries and oftentimes it will be details that aren't part of anything like pop culture. It might even be details that aren't publicized but they still keep cropping up. So to say that this is just an individual psychopathology or something doesn't really get to the heart of the matter. It doesn't account for the evidence. To move on to another topic, we had some responses in our chat room so far about the idea of abductions and some of the people in the chat room were saying that if that was their experience, in their personal experience, they would like the abductions to stop and that for them maybe they'd like trying maybe using this intense sense of righteous anger to try to stop it and that it seems kind of sad that all that people can do is just learn to live with it. I wonder if you could comment a little bit about that, maybe the potential of stopping abductions; have you ever seen that or if you know any researchers who have had any success with that. Is that the best alternative? Just to learn to accept it and go on with your life?

David: As far as I know nobody has figured out a way to stop it, unfortunately. It's possible that some people who are under constant observation, in prison for example, that might stop it. It's possible but other than that, this is what people tell me. They tell me that they stopped abductions. They were able to stop an abduction. Let me just say the background for this to lead up to it. It's inter-generational. That is to say, if a person is an abductee, their mother or their father or both were or are abductees. It starts in early childhood and goes on with great rapidity all the way into old age. It's something that is part of their lives essentially.

So if they say they stopped an abduction, let's just say they did. Well they didn't stop the 50 million other abductions that they had and they're going to have afterwards as well or whatever. Here's an actual case for example and I've heard cases like this before. This woman woke up in the middle of the night and she saw these aliens and she immediately grabbed her pillow and she threw her pillow at them and they were frightened and they departed and she aborted the abduction.

And I've heard other stories similar to that. They said a religious incantation and then the aliens left. The religious aspect to it is somewhat popular. What they don't realize and what I learned was yes, all that was true. They did give a religious statement to them and they left and they did throw a pillow at them and they left. But what they didn't realize was it was the end of the abduction event and they came to consciousness just a little bit too early before the aliens had gotten out and that's what happened. So we have not actually found a good way of stopping it.

Now, having said that, there are ways to stop it. I had one woman truss herself up with string. She took off all her clothes. She put string all over her body. She tied it in knots and cut it and tied knots all around her legs, through her crotch, through her shoulders, onto her back, everywhere. And then she tied the pieces in knots and then she told her husband to hide the scissors. And she was not abducted. They came to get her and they would not take her in that condition. She did that two nights in a row and they had a bargaining situation. She said she would not do this anymore. She didn't want to be frightened as she was before. She wanted them to stop her fear and she wanted to remember what happened and they said okay we agree.

So she was abducted the next night, couldn't remember a darn thing, was scared to death. So they did not keep their part of the bargain and in some way they prevented her from doing that afterwards as well. So there might be ways to stop it. There's a guy named Mike Menkin and Michael Menkin is on the internet. He makes hats filled with a special kind of...

Elan: Tinfoil.

David: Well it's not tinfoil. It's in the lining of the cap itself. It's just a regular hat, like a baseball cap or something like that and abductees swear that it stops abductions because they can't get through the velafoil or something - I can't remember what it's called - they can't get through the lining that he has put in there and everything is a matter of control and people are controlled neurologically most of the time during an abduction event otherwise if they weren't controlled, even before the abduction event, they would get out their Glock 9s and blow these little guys heads off when they entered into their rooms. That would happen if they weren't in control and they are in control early on and they're in control afterwards as well, for a few minutes afterwards until they leave.

So that doesn't happen but for Mike Menkin's hat, people say that it stops abductions. But the problem for me is that the abduction phenomenon is clandestine. It is secret and the way in which you begin the secrecy is by keeping it from the abductee himself or herself. So we don't know whether or not they weren't abducted anyway and think that they weren't because they just don't remember it or in fact they had to take off the hat in some way and then were abducted and then put the hat back on and think they weren't abducted. All those things are very difficult to figure out. However Mike is in the right sort of world of this because he understands that everything is a matter of neurology. It's all a matter of control of a person's mind and if you can stop that you'll probably be able to stop abductions.

Shane: It kind of reminds me of Paul Bennewitz and how he was subjected to some intense crazy-making and the only thing that saved his sanity for a bit was locking himself in the car and basically surrounding himself with an EM shield which I think was tinfoil.

Dave: Yeah. It might have stopped an abduction but you don't really know. I don't know if tinfoil will do it because I don't exactly know the waves that are coming from the abductors and going into the abductee's mind. I don't know how that works. Telepathy is not a normal part of the human condition. If we lived in a society where telepathy was a normal part, everything would be different. We would live in a totally different world if telepathy was a normal part of our neurology. But it is not. So I don't know the ins and outs, so to speak, of whether or not these gadgets work. What we need is a group of scientists who could take off on this with abductees and run controlled experiments in some way or another by having people wear certain headgear of this kind and that kind and whatever and seeing what works the best and all that sort of thing.

That's not going to happen, not in my lifetime anyway. Right now the academic and the scientific community is more hostile to this subject than ever before in history, not only to the abduction phenomenon but to UFOs in general. Not since the beginning, since 1947 when the UFO phenomenon broke into public consciousness has there been so much hostility towards this subject within the scientific and academic community. So we have devolved in terms of people looking at ways to stop this rather than evolved. It's a difficult situation all the way around obviously.

Elan: David, speaking of being hostile to this idea of alien abduction, there are some people in the UFO community who say all abductions are actually the product of human agencies. Similarly, some say that it's human agencies that are conducting through some kind of special technology a kind of psyop or mind game on people to make them think that they've been abducted in order to create the perception of either a benevolent alien or also just to project this idea that they're evil aliens when it's only - according to this theory - human agencies and groups that are trying to perpetrate specific crimes and goals. Do you have any thoughts about any of those theories or ideas?

David: It's easy to make a conspiracy out of almost everything unusual. All you have to do is think it up. The evidence is not there. That's the best I can say. The evidence is not there. This is a global phenomenon. I worked with a woman from Pakistan and we did a couple of sessions when she was a young child in Pakistan. They would have to have gotten to the young child in Pakistan and in some way abducted them or convinced them that they had been abducted when they were six years old or whatever it was. It makes no sense once you understand what the abduction phenomenon is. It makes no sense whatsoever to me.

If in fact it's humans who are doing this, I would jump for joy! That would be great! That would be wonderful! I'll take it! I'd rather have humans doing it rather than the aliens for various reasons but it makes no sense to me, not from what people have been telling me. You have to understand, I've worked with people who were in wars, in the armed services, in Vietnam and this and that. One person I worked with was abducted while he was in Vietnam. They'd have to get to him in Vietnam. Once you start looking at the evidence you realize it doesn't make any sense. That's the best I can say.

These are aliens from a technologically advanced other planet, other world - or wherever they're from, I don't know - and that makes sense. All the evidence points to that. None of the evidence points away from it. That's the best I can say I guess.

Shane: So we have the UFO phenomenon which is seen as pretty strange by many people and then there's the abduction phenomenon which is seen as stranger still. And then we have the topic of your book, which is looking into the hybrid program, which is stranger still. So I guess maybe we can start digging into that subject?

David: Absolutely. The interesting thing about the hybrid situation is in the very first case ever uncovered, the Antonio Vilas-Boas case, the illiterate Brazilian peasant, he was uncontrollably made, so to speak, to have sex with a human-looking alien, which of course was just nuts in 1957 and it was embarrassing. It wasn't even published in the general literature until 1966 because it was so crazy. In the Barney and Betty Hill case, they took sperm from Barney who was so embarrassed by this that when a book was written called The Interrupted Journey about it, he had John Fuller the author take that part out of the book. Everybody who had ever said they had sperm taken from them could not therefore, to the satisfaction of UFO researchers say "Well they picked it up from The Interrupted Journey book, from Barney and Betty Hill." They didn't but it happened to Barney. They stuck a needle in the naval of Betty and she said that they told her it was a pregnancy test. It is probably not what they told her. That was probably confabulation. But we know that that particular procedure does have to do probably with taking eggs and the needle is angled off a little bit towards the ovary, we think.

So there has been this reproductive aspect to it from the get-go, from the beginning. When I wrote The Threat I talked about these beings who looked sort of human and sort of alien and some of them looked quite human in fact, could sort of pass even. So that aspect of it has been with this phenomenon from the beginning. Now it turns out that Antonio Vilas-Boas was not an illiterate Brazilian peasant. He was a law student who became an attorney and maintained the truthfulness of his story until he died, to our amazement. We learned this in the 1980s. Everybody just assumed he was just some kid who didn't know how to read or write and all that. But I fact he was saying what everybody else eventually was saying, that there is a reproductive element to this, that there are these beings who are with the grey aliens who sometimes look like they're sort of crosses between aliens and humans and they look really weird, and there's a spectrum of them who look human, all the way from looking alien to looking human.

These are the hybrids as Budd Hopkins first discovered this and he's the one who coined the phrase "hybrid" for this particular type of being. And that's what we see in - I'm not going to say 100% of all the incidents but it's certainly in 90% now or 80%. As time has gone on it's more and more and more that way although most abductees don't know that it's more and more and more. All they know is what's happening to them, but that's what I found.

This is not a phenomenon where we thought originally that they were surveilling what we were doing, that they're learning about our society, they're interested in us and they're testing us. They grab a few people. They test them and they find out what makes them tick and they snap their head off their necks and see what's inside, put their head back on or whatever they do because they're interested, see. It's all medical interest or whatever.
That concept simply did not hold. That was not a concept. It was something that we attached onto it as what we thought was happening but the evidence for it ultimately was not there. When people are taken and they're put on a table and these grey aliens work on them, they're not examining them like a doctor would examine us. In fact everything that they do to abductees is unknown. We do not know what they're doing. I have a really, really good guess. One of the procedures is a grey alien will take his thumb and his forefinger and run it down a person's backbone, all the way down to the coccyx and back up.

One time I was looking through a book about neurological examinations and I was looking at the sympathetic nervous system that ran down the spine and I realized that the nerve endings towards the coccyx control sexual function and they were particularly involved with running their fingers up and down the neurons and neural pathways and all that, through the coccyx and I realized that this was a neurological examination more than anything else. As Budd Hopkins pointed out, they never listen to anybody's heart. They're not concerned with whether a person's going to live or die because of their heart.

Nothing makes sense in these things but they do not tell the abductees what they're doing, ever, when technology is used, when there's a machine that they're placed inside of or a machine that goes over them or a machine that peers down at them. They don't know what that is. We know absolutely nothing about the technology involved with the "examination" or what these beings are doing except a guess of the neurological aspects in the spine. So other than that we know absolutely nothing after all these years and after hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of accounts of these events. We still know nothing because they don't say anything and people don't guess. And if they guess I know it's a guess. They'll tell me "I'm going to guess it's this" or something like that. But even if they think they know, I know that they don't because the aliens simply do not say anything. So we don't know anything about that.

However, what I found over the years is that grey aliens are there but hybrids have been doing more and more of this kind of examination and hybrids have been seen more and more and hybrids have been dealing with abductees on the ground more and more. By the time I finished the book The Threat, right after I finished it I was seeing hybrids doing entire abduction events, tables, this, that and everything, with no grey aliens around even, although that's unusual. But I did have those kinds of cases and I knew that obviously the hybrid phenomenon was part and parcel of the abduction phenomenon and I've learned that ultimately because this is global, that this is a situation whereby they are creating hybrids for every society in the world.

What you're looking at here is a hybrid-making factory in essence, onboard these UFOs. And the question is, why are they doing that? Of course this is a question that became the ultimate question. Why are they making hybrids? Why are they creating hybrids? And we know that sperm is taken from men, eggs are taken from women. We knew this early, early on, that there is something altered when they take the sperm and the egg, not necessarily from the same people, but they take sperm and egg. They join them together and then they do something to the zygote I guess. They add alien DNA, I will say, not knowing whether aliens have DNA or what they're doing, but they're doing something that appears to be alien DNA. They're putting it back into the woman's uterus and then they take it out after 11 or 12 weeks. It's only a couple of inches long then, maybe three inches or so and they put it into a gestation tank with a brown nutrient fluid in it where these babies grow to be taken out at around a normal baby-taken-out age, nine months or so, and then people describe them as young children, as babies. They have to hold babies and feed babies and sometimes paint a brown nutrient solution over the babies' bodies. We've seen them as older kids, toddlers, two, three years old, playing. From that they see them all the way up into adolescence onboard the UFO. And sometimes into young adulthood as well.

Some of them will see them as sort of special hybrids, what I call a personal project hybrid, a cumbersome phrase where a hybrid will adopt, so to speak, a human early on, let's just say when the human is 10 years old or 12 years old or even earlier and sometimes a little bit older and stay with that person for the rest of their lives. The abductee will see that hybrid over and over again. The hybrid might come into their apartments or their homes and there's sexual involvement here to a certain extent and sometimes the abductee will like this hybrid quite a bit. Sometimes they hate this hybrid and there's everything in the middle as well. But that hybrid sticks with this person for years and years and years and years and years. I can't say forever because I haven't worked with people forever. But for many, many years.

So what I've learned is that all of these hybrids are created for a specific task. The ones who look quite alien take care of babies. Now this is not hard and fast, but this is basically what they do. And the ones who look more human take care of more human-looking hybrids and the ones who look quite human take care of hybrids who might eventually move here and pass for normal. It's not that they were just given a job. That's what they were created for. That's how their brains function. That's what they do.

Shane: The distinction between those two types of hybrids, the ones that look less human versus the ones that look more human, the latter are what you call hubrids? Is that the distinction?

David: Right. The final result is to create humans who look human in every way imaginable whereas where what I call humanoid ones who are personal project hybrids, they might have some sort of physical flaw, like there's no bodily hair or their eyes are just a little bit too big to be out in the public, or something like that. But the hubrids - it's just a combination of human and hybrid, that all - but I use that in Walking Among Us to differentiate from all of the other stages of hybridization that they have.

So these are the ones who will be moving into apartments and homes and living here. They are human in absolutely every way imaginable except for one minor, itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny little way and that is, they can control humans neurologically and we cannot control them. They can make humans think, feel, see, anything that they want neurologically. They can do it from a distance just like all the aliens can and all the hybrids can. That part is left intact. That is frightening. That is extremely scary because right now we have no way to stop them from controlling humans and those are the ones who people began to tell me, starting in 2003, who are moving into the society.

So what you've got is a spectrum of hybrids who look quite alien - and when I say alien I mean grey alien, not insect-like ones who I think are the ones who are in charge of the production or reptilian ones who have their place in the production as well - but they look like from grey aliens DNA in some way and there's a spectrum that goes all the way to human, hubrid as I call them, and neurologically they're all the same, but outward looking you cannot tell the difference between them and us. I don't like hearing that! I don't know why. It just upsets me! I don't know why.

Shane: It's a little creepy. That's an understatement.

David: Yeah. I've said this before and this is true. Starting in 2003 when I began to realize what was happening here, when I would do a session with somebody - and I hate to say this - I'm hearing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Now that's good because you're looking for patterns. So when I do hypnosis with an abductee which is just the simple relaxation techniques, I don't consider myself a hypnotist. I just do this relaxation business and that's it. But when I do that, I get kind of relaxed myself.

So they start talking about these things that are happening to them that I've heard hundreds of times, and the only thing that runs through my mind is "Stay awake! Stay awake! Don't fall asleep! Stay awake! Stay awake! Don't fall asleep!", trying to keep my eyes open and sometimes they will say something that captures my attention, something I haven't heard before, some little detail or something and I start thinking about it and thinking about it and I'm thinking really, really hard about it and I realize I have fallen asleep. I wake up and I say "Ugh-ugh, what happens next?" And I think "Oh god! I can't allow that to happen." But I've heard these stories so often that my mind just starts to wander. But that's very important. It's important to hear those stories over and over again obviously, because if it's an outlier you would just put it on the back burner waiting for somebody else to confirm it and if nobody else confirms it, no matter how interesting it is, it's still sort of an outlier.

So starting in 2003 a guy told me something I hadn't heard before. Now I had heard of hybrids coming down and they're having sex with abductees and looking around their apartment and this and that. These would be the personal project hybrids almost always. But this guy told me around our fourth session he said he just remembered that he had a friend and his friend was not only just a friend, it was his best friend and they did everything together. They had been to dinner. The guy's married and has kids but they'd gone to dinner together. They'd gone to foreign countries together. He had taken him to a baseball game. He did this, he did that. He was his best friend and he just remembered that he knew this guy! He did now know the guy's last name. He didn't know where if the guy was married or not, if the guy worked or not, where the guy lived, didn't know anything about the guy, didn't know where the guy was born, but he was his best friend he told me, which of course makes no sense. It's senseless.

And so I listened to several accounts of what he and this best friend were doing. I call them Bernard and Eric I guess in my book. But that's an outlier to a certain extent. So I waited for other people to say similar things. Now it's not going to be exactly the same, but it's going to be similar. And then another person began to say things like that and then another person and then another person and it all had to do with teaching a hybrid what life was like on earth. And that's what Bernard did with Eric. He taught him about all sorts of things, about what life was like here.
For example he was washing his car one day. He went to one of those do-it-yourself dollar-and-a-quarter car wash places and suddenly Eric was there and he said "What are you doing?" And the guy said "Well I'm washing my car." "Well why are you doing that?" "Oh well because the car gets dirty and could ruin the paint" and this and that and "Well what are you doing now?" "Well I'm rubbing off the water." "Why are you doing that?" All these why questions.

The conversation is one-way only. The hybrid asks questions. The abductee answers. That's the way the conversation is. And he had several conversations like this with him before they became even closer friends and Bernard's job was to instruct this guy about everything, which he did do. Then other people began to tell me about instructing hubrids as I call them now - the ones who are actually living here - on how to live here and how to be here and how to talk to people and how to do this and how to do that and how to furnish their apartments. And I began to realize "This is different!"

Now in The Threat abductees told me that these grey aliens were telling them that soon there was going to be a change. Soon a change was going to come around and everybody would be happy. Everybody would know his place. And the change was going to be wonderful. Now the question is what did they mean by "everybody". My guess is they meant them, themselves, not humans. But this change was coming. So I asked people what is the change. Do they know what it is? No, nobody knew what that meant. I said "Well what do you mean by soon?" Because "soon" is a non-word. It can mean 10 seconds from now. It can mean 10,000 years from now. We don't know. It's a relative word that means nothing.

So nobody knew what the word "soon" meant, but they were saying this. At the same time they were having abductees, as I remember, I put this in The Threat also, look at a picture. Go into a room and there's a picture on the wall of a picnic, is one of the ones I put in The Threat where there's kids throwing a ball around. There's people at a grill. It's a regular barbecue in a park, just normal, absolutely average. And they hear telepathically "Can you tell the difference between you and us?" And the abductee looks at is and says "What do you mean? Difference? There's no difference whatsoever. Everybody looks the same." And they say "See, isn't that wonderful? Pretty soon there's going to be this change. Everybody's going to be together. It's going to be wonderful. You're going to love it" and that sort of stuff.

And I heard several of these things and I thought "This does not sound so good to me!" In Walking Among Us it's sort of the next phase and I don't know if it's the last phase but it's the next phase and now what I've been hearing is, like from Bernard, hybrids living here and abductees instructing them on everything. Now, you have to go back. Abductees have been instructing hubrid children as it turns out, as we now know, from the get-go, from the time that they were very young. In one of the little stories - I didn't fully understand all the implications of it - but one of the ones that I put in The Threat was a woman who's standing in front of a bunch of six or seven-year-olds or whatever and on the wall there's an image of a dog. They asked her "What's a dog for?" Because there are no dogs onboard UFOs, you know. And she said "Well it's for companionship and love and you get to play with them" and this and that. "Do you eat dogs?" "No, no, no, we don't eat dogs, don't eat dogs, except of course in China." She didn't say that.

The next picture is a goat. "What's a goat for?" "Well you get milk from a goat. You make it into cheese." "Do you eat goats?" Then she said she's a vegetarian so she doesn't but some people do, yeah. So they were instructing them about things on earth and they would instruct them about all sorts of things on earth, all sorts of things. When they get to earth that means nothing. Suddenly they are struck with a million things - and that's probably not an exaggeration - that they have never been confronted with before on how to live on earth in real life. Abductees teach them how to do everything after that.

Now sometimes they come down to abductees' homes as children themselves and they get a tour of the kitchen, what a kitchen is, what a refrigerator is, what a stove is, what an ice cube is, things like that. Sometimes they'll come down a little bit older to peoples' homes in groups and an abductee will teach them what a television is and what's on television and different channels and things like that. But even then, when they finally move in, the amount of information that they have not learned is enormous and so abductees spend a tremendous amount of time teaching them what it's like to live here in daily life and that's what Walking Among Us is all about. It's interesting, it's fascinating, it's wonderful, it's scary.

Shane: Well reading through the accounts of different abductees' experiences with these hubrids, it strikes me that the psychological process that these hubrids have is very alien and very superficial it seems. They have very little self-awareness or awareness of the environment or abstract thinking, the ability to critically think about things. Their mentality comes across as being like a child's even if they may look like they're say in their 20s. And it's to the point where you get frustrated with these very simplistic questions that are asked over and over and over again. So it seems that they are lacking, even if they have some human element, there seems something very significant absent internally.

David: Well yes and no. My sense is that they're actually quick learners, that they remember everything. Being superficial is correct because they have no idea how to not be superficial. They were bred to look the same here and to live here but the depth of their ability to deal with other humans, I'm not sure. I don't know how much empathy they have for people, how they're destroying peoples' lives to a large extent. I'm not sure that they're aware of that. And I don't know how much in the abstract they can think. My guess is that they can learn all that. They have excellent brains, in my opinion, excellent. However, they do not understand things like humour. There's no humour onboard a UFO. They can't understand irony. They can't understand sarcasm. In a telepathic society those things don't exist. You can't speak to a hybrid, say one thing and raise your one eyebrow meaning something else altogether, like you're not really supposed to believe what I'm saying and you can just have it in your voice like 'I'm saying alright now, if you know what I mean".

So they don't know what you mean. Spoken language is so different for them from telepathy. With telepathy you can't lie and everything is just straight on. And like I said, they don't understand humour and lots of people talk with humour all the time. They don't get it. So the nuances of having a spoken language is one of the greatest obstacles that they have to deal with. When people teach them how to drive, they learn how to drive real quickly. They have to teach them what signs mean and why there are signs there, what streets are, where streets go to, that sort of stuff, and how you have to drive in a specific lane and you can't drive too fast and you can't drive too slow and all that sort of stuff.

There's one account that I have in Walking Among Us. This woman Betsy was brought to a parking lot in a soon to be demolished area of the small city that she lived in. There were a couple of cars parked in this small parking lot and most of the other stores were abandoned. It was 2:00 in the morning. The buildings were going to be torn down around them. So she goes there. There's a couple of cars parked in the parking lot and there's a group of young hubrids who are waiting there and a security hybrid. Once hubrids come down to live I've learned that security for them goes sky high through the roof and into another planet. You can't imagine how strong security is when a hubrid is on the ground. That'll be a whole other book I'll be writing about later on.

Her job was to teach these young hubrids how to drive with her car. So she gets into her car in the passenger seat and she's asked to instruct this guy who's about 17 or 18 years old how to put it in gear, you have to do this, you have to slowly move out of the parking space. The car had nosed into the side of a building so that she had to pull out first. She did this for a while and one guy, maybe it was the first one, now that I remember, put his foot on the gas too hard and turned the wheel so the car flew out of this parking space in reverse and he slammed on the brakes. It went into an arc around, almost hitting the other cars that were there.

She had such an adrenalin surge when that happened, that she snapped out of her stupor so-to-speak, out of the control of the aliens and she looked around and she said "Where the hell am I? What am I doing? I've gotta get out of here." She opened the door and she walked really fast into an empty lot that was right next to the parking lot which had scrub grass and bushes on it and that kind of stuff and they ran after her and brought her under control again; but she was out of control for a few minutes. And that happens every once in a while.

Every once in a while somebody onboard a UFO will get loose and run down a hallway. I've had that happen to several people I've worked with. They run down a hallway. It's the adrenalin rush that does it. And this is a side thing, back on the tables again when people feel extreme pain they stop the pain right away and they think it's because they don't want people to be hurt. My guess is they don't want an adrenalin rush through the people. It snaps them out of it.

Then she taught another one how to drive. She taught another one how to drive and essentially that was it. And then she would go off driving with them every once in a while. But I think to myself "Well supposing they're stopped by the police and they don't have a driver's licence?" Well that's not a problem. The policeman will come over to them and say "You know you were doing 50 in a 25 mph zone" and then the policeman will say to himself "Oh, I guess he wasn't. I must have been wrong. Well. good-bye."

Shane: "These are not the drones you're looking for."

David: Right. So this is the neurological control coming into it. Now there are other problems here. What about a passport? What about a birth certificate? Well those thing, I think, can be arranged in some way. If they go out of the country they don't have to go by airplane. They can go another way through their friends in the sky. But there's no reason to go to another country. They've got hybrids in other countries too.
But yet, without any kind of papers of any sort you'd think they'd run into trouble and I don't know how that is gotten around yet. I haven't learned that.

Harrison: Well David don't you say in your book that these hubrids seem to have pretty much everything in common with just ordinary humans except for those certain neurological or mental abilities which might include that ability to control and influence people? Is that correct?

David: Which does include that, yes, absolutely. They can control people and we can't control them.

Harrison: Right. So if they don't have a passport I presume they might be able to say "Well I don't need a passport". That's totally possible. I'm reminded of Richard Reed, the shoe bomber or one of those bomber guys, I think it was in Amsterdam.

Elan: The underwear bomber.

Harrison: The underwear bomber. And he got onto his flight, I think in the Netherlands, without a passport and he was escorted there by some well-dressed looking man. I'm not trying to imply anything about that incident but I'm just saying it's possible and it has happened before.

David: Yeah. It is possible. It does happen. But also there's the problem of a birth certificate. Now they could always do what criminals do and that is find a child who died at birth or something like that, take that particular name and then apply for a birth certificate or whatever I suppose. I'm not sure, saying they lost their birth certificate. I don't know. They might be able to do something like that but my guess is that these things are just minor, minor irritants on their way to doing whatever they're going to do later on. I don't know the answers to all those things because they haven't come up with abductees and therefore all I can do is just guess. Guesswork is a tough one because you're going to be wrong most of the time.

Elan: David, in Walking Among Us you discuss a hierarchy of different ETs that are working on this project aboard the ships and in one of the recollections an abductee was brought into a room and heard this little pep talk given by an insectalin as you call it, who sounded really arrogant and tried to impart this feeling that all the abductees who were present were lucky to be part of this great project that they were running. Would you talk a little bit about that and a little bit about the hierarchy that exists on these ships.

David: Well the hierarchy, from what I've learned - and once again I'm certainly open to being wrong - but in my opinion the insect-like ones are the ones in charge. They give orders. Everybody else takes orders. Now you have to understand that each type of being is bred for a specific reason. Their brains are focused on doing whatever they're brains tell them to do because their brains have been modified to do just one thing, essentially. It might be a big thing like grey aliens do an awful lot of things, but that's what they do and that's all they do. They come down and they get people and they bring them up and they do this and they do that, but they're not the ones who are directing the event. Their job is to work 24/7 doing this.
But the insect-like ones apparently are the ones who are in charge. Then there's the reptilian-like ones. Because of David Icke or whoever else, the reptilians-like ones are all the rage these days in the internet. 'They're horrible. They're terrible.' Or there are biblical mentions. My guess is they have a completely different role altogether. My sense is - once again, I just haven't gotten this - but these insect-like ones do not come down and get people. They don't abduct people. Grey aliens and hybrids do all the abductions that I've looked at in all these years. The large, sometimes 6-foot-tall, very thin-looking preying mantis-type ones don't come down and abduct people, from my own research.

So the reptilians ones follow and the grey aliens and there's tall and small. The taller ones do the more complicated procedures for people on tables. The smaller ones do more of the grunt work. They squire people around from room-to-room. They come down and get people. They will clean up if somebody urinates or defecates on the floor or something like that. They will clean up. They do other things like that.

Then comes what I call early stage hybrids and then there's this spectrum of hybrids and all of them are bred for a reason also. They all have their jobs. They're embedded in their minds. And then you come to humanoid ones who can become personal project hybrids who can control people, who live onboard UFOs who don't live here. Then there's human ones and human ones are security hybrids. They look human but they have a one-track mind only. They only think about security and they are incapable of not thinking about security. That is what they were bred for. That is what their neurology is all about. That's what they do. Therefore they are not going to be living here, blending into society. They might in fact live on their own in an apartment but their job is to only protect other hybrids and make sure that abductees are not tattling on them, are not telling people like me, for example, what's happening. That puts hybrids at risk. That cannot be allowed. That will not be allowed. They do everything imaginable to get the abductee to stop talking to me or to other abductees or to other researchers or whatever.

So you've got this spectrum of aliens all the way down to these hubrids, all of whom have their specific functions. Now going back to the insectalins, oddly, although grey aliens will sometimes engage in conversation with a human that happens every once in a while with an abductee, if there's ever any discussion with the insectalins they actually talk a little bit more than most other of the aliens. They actually will talk more with abductees and even answer some questions sometimes. Most aliens will not answer questions. So it's complicated and yet there is a pecking order.

Now then there's the reptilians and like I said, it's a lot neater than that. It's 100% reptilians, 100% of the time it seems mainly because of a guy named David Icke. Anyway, I don't need this kind of stuff. Logically this is probably what happens. I do not know this. I'm guessing this. This is speculation. When they first came here and they began the abduction problem, if the insectalins don't abduct people themselves, they had to bring a workforce from another planet or from wherever, from their own planet, from somewhere, to do that. They had to have a workforce with them. And from that workforce they started abducting people, the reptilians did, I think.

Once they started abducting humans and taking human DNA, taking eggs and sperm, they began to create grey aliens. And the reason I think that is because grey aliens are the definition of alien. They're small. They're grey. They've got giant eyes. They've got two holes for a nose. They've got a slit for a mouth. They've got holes for ears. Okay, big black eyes. I can see that. That's alien. Okay, they've got to have holes in their ears. If something falls over they have to be able to look over and see what happened and that's functional for them.

Okay, they've got to have holes for a nose. Alright, if something broke and they smell an odour, okay, I'll go for that. But they don't need a mouth. They do not speak. They do not eat through their mouths. They do not have tongues. They do not breath. There is no reason on this earth or in this space or in this galaxy for them to have a slit for a mouth. That's why I think that it's human DNA that actually they used to create grey aliens. Just a pinch here and a pinch there and the grey aliens are created. But I might be wrong about that of course. I'm guess here because they don't say.
Therefore, what you then have is the continual creation of an ever-expanding workforce of grey aliens and hybrids who are obviously part of humans. When you take a look at this workforce, I often wondered "Well why is this intergenerational, global and secretive? It's around the world. It's clandestine. It's secretive and I boiled it down to one sentence in the book and it's an inarguable sentence, or a non-arguable sentence, I'm not sure which. But the sentence is "They don't want us to know what they're doing." You can't get past that because if they were benevolent and all the rest of that stuff, we'd know what they were doing. They would be happy. We would be wanting to meet them. We'd be embracing them. They don't want us to know what they're doing because they might get us angry or upset!! Or whatever, obviously! We might figure out a way to stop this, for example.

So there's a certain ominous quality to the global, clandestine and intergenerational nature of it. Now here's one of the problems. Years ago I thought to myself "Well if everybody who's an abductee actually has a mother or father who's an abductee, if it's intergenerational, then eventually, that's to say if the population stays essentially the same, how long will it be for everybody to be an abductee?" I had a PhD mathematician work it out because I am a math idiot and I count on my fingers and that is true. He said it would take three generations or something like that, or seven generations - several generations, whatever it was, I can't remember.

So if we boil it into eight generations and then you have to think "What is a generation?" A hundred years ago a generation was 20 years, now it's 30-35 years. So even given that, if this phenomenon started in the 14th century, by the 17th or 18th century everybody on earth would be an abductee. So it couldn't have started that far back. It was started in the 20th century. If it started in 2000 then by 2000 and whatever, everybody'd be an abductee. But the problem here is I was wrong. The problem is that we are in a population explosion that is going on even as we speak.
When I was born there were 2.3 billion people on earth. There are now 7.4 billion people on earth. That's an enormous number of people in my lifetime! And I'm only 22 years old! I'm 73. I was born in 1942. And consequently what I realize is that the intergenerationality of the phenomenon keeps up with the population growth. So you're having an expanding number of abductees as the population grows because it's intergenerational. So if somebody is an abductee and marries an non-abductee and they have two kids or three kids or 20 kids, all those kids will be abductees. And if they all get married and have 20 kids each - I don't know how many that is - but there's a lot of kids who are going to be abductees.

So the abductee population is expanding. That means that the UFO numbers have to expand as do aliens have to expand to keep in touch with the expanding human population because abductees are expanding. Consequently what you get is this enormous growth of abductees and aliens and the craft they travel in, UFOs, expanding around the world by definition. It has to be that way. So what that all means it that these things are serious! We are looking at an absolutely colossal phenomenon. This is something that is extraordinarily important, far more important than simply discovering that there's life out there other than us. The implications of all this are staggering. It's hard to get your mind around all the implications of what is going on.

People say no, no, no, no, UFOs don't exist at all and of course the academic community says that. They laugh at it. They still laugh at the UFO phenomenon, at the outside shells of objects that people see all the time even though the evidence for UFOs is unbelievably enormous! We have every conceivable kind of evidence we can possibly have except - now everybody's going to disagree with me about this - except having one that we can look at and study. I don't know anything about Roswell and so maybe that's (inaudible)... But the fact is that aside from that, we've got films, 8 mm and 16 m and 32 mm and pictures and tapes of UFOs. We've got the minister, the rabbi and another cleric, let's just say, seeing a UFO from different angles on the ground and one throwing a rock at it and it bounces off it. These are solid people. And scientists have seen UFOs and it's unbelievable how much we know about the UFO phenomenon by looking at the outside shells of those objects.

We know all about their manoeuvres. We know all about their colour changes at night. We know all about their lights. We know all about how they can fly away at fantastic speeds. We know all about everything there is to know about them, and we learned all of that by the late 1970s. Books were written about UFOs' effects on humans, their effects on animals, their effects on the environment, on vegetation, on the ground when they land and there's compression tests taken. They're heavy. UFOs on the ground is common. People have seen them all the time. And there's the residue of them left there, the round rings and all that. Consequently, there's only so much you can learn about this subject.

With the abduction phenomenon you're getting inside the UFOs and you're going directly to the matter of intent and you can't do that by looking at the outside shells. You can't do that. It's easy to do. After all I was a UFO researcher myself for years. It's important to do because it shows you that there is still a tremendous number of UFOs around and it builds more evidence for it and I respect all that. You have to have people doing that. But in fact people have turned more towards government research and seeing what the government knows and what it doesn't know and all the rest of that stuff and it moves away a little bit from the abduction phenomenon and from the UFO phenomenon itself and goes more, as I said, towards government reaction to it.

But the fact is, it's also been on television quite a bit over the years and nothing has happened and the scientific and academic community just looks at the whole thing and says "Well, I've got better things to do and the evidence isn't fully there yet and besides that, everybody is crazy!" That's what they say. They can't fully understand the massiveness of the evidence for UFOs. Once they do that they would get interested in the abduction phenomenon. That has not happened. It's all sort of gone away in a sense. Astronomers will understand that there is probably life out there.

Now when astronomers think of life, what they think of is amoebas floating around on the water or the creepy-crawly things in the water or some creepy-crawly things outside of the water. That's when they think of life because it took a billion years or whatever it was, for life to come out of the oceans here on earth, so they're looking at us as that being the only way will ever evolve. Maybe that's true, but the fact is that it is not possible for us to be the only life that's technologically advanced in our galaxy. I'm not talking about the universe, just in our galaxy. It is simply not possible. To say that we are the only technologically advanced life is crazy! It's much crazier than saying that there's lots and lots of life out there, most of which is technologically advanced.

Most scientists think that's crazy, but they are dead wrong! It's not logical. If we have technology, there's got to be millions of other earths out there that have technology. And since our technology is brand new, not even a flicker of an eyelash of shutting an eyelid in geologic or cosmic time. Even if you say it's 200 years old, it's brand new. And if you say it's 5,000 years old, it's well within the brand new range. Most people who have technology, most being are going to be advanced. It has to be that way. It can't be any other way. And scientists don't think that way, for reasons that escape me. It's reasonless. It's illogical. It's stupid!!

Harrison: David, we're about ten minutes until our planned end of the show. We might run a few minutes extra, but I wanted to ask a few of our listener and forum questions, if that's alright with you? You can give short answers if you want or you can expand where you think it might be necessary. First of all, this is from a reader on our forum and they ask if you have heard from any of your abductees that you work with about implants and if so, what have either the abductees or any of the aliens involved given any indication of the purpose of those implants and if they've found them, have you tried to deal with them somehow?

David: Right. All abductees probably have an implant. The three best places for them to be placed - if I can use that term - the most common places are through the nose, through the cartilage and into the pituitary gland. That's the most common one of all. People sneeze them out every once in a while, little balls, sometimes with spikes on them, sometimes not; through the ear, through the eardrum itself and sometimes leaving a little scar tissue near the brain, where we don't exactly know, and sometimes we see them through a tear duct into a sinus cavity. After that they can sort of be seen all over the place, in people legs, arms, hands, fingers, whatever, behind the ear.

There was a guy, Roger Lear, who was a podiatrist who began studying implants. He put together a team of surgeons who removed things on peoples' arms and legs and all that. You don't want to saw somebody's head open, to find an implant. That would be a difficult thing to do. Most people would not want to have that happen to them. But they found some very interesting things about a few of these. What they're for we still don't know. One implant seemed to react in some way to metal being placed towards it. I don't know what that means. Roger unfortunately died just at the height of his research in this area. He did not die under suspicious circumstances or anything like that.

We do not know what these implants are for. As I said originally, when it comes to technology, we know absolutely nothing. We know absolutely nothing! And the implants are technology. We have no knowledge of what they're for. My guess is they are extremely sophisticated devices that, people say a location device. Well maybe that, maybe not. I'm not so sure about that. I tend to think not. I think maybe they have medical records in them, what has been done to this abductee and if they move to Tierra del Fuego, then maybe the groups of aliens down there who are covering the Tierra del Fuego region would know exactly what has happened to this person in the past and what needs to be done in the future, or whatever. That's just a guess, but I don't know. Nobody knows. You'd think that because of hypnosis and relaxation, people would be saying things that are not true and you wouldn't be able to pick it up, but people say no, they don't know what it's for, all the time and they don't guess. They just don't know. So when it comes to technology, we just don't know.

Harrison: And the second question from this forum member is "Have any of your clients ever mentioned their souls and alien interests in their souls?"

David: Nope. Nope.

Harrison: Okay.

David: I've worked with five ministers. No interest whatsoever in religion. They don't know what religion is basically, or souls or anything like that.

Harrison: Okay. Next question. What do you think of John Keel's work and the hyper-dimensional hypothesis for UFOs and aliens?

David: No, I read John Keel a hundred years ago. I can't remember. John Keel was a person who - let's just say he was not fully reliable about the UFO phenomenon. There's a lot of characters around who tended to write sort of anything that came along and John Keel would not be a person who was within the legitimate realm of UFO research in my opinion. But that's just me.

Harrison: What about the inter-dimensional hypothesis in general?

David: Scientists say they can't get here from there because even at the speed of light you turn into pure energy, it'll still take years and years and years. You can't get here from there. They don't say that anymore. Now they say "Well because there might be multi-dimensions, they might pop through a dimension and come here that way and that might be true. There might be multiverses" and all these theories. "They might come through a wormhole." Scientists are revising their idea of how one can travel through space and basically we don't know how they got here. We don't know where they're from. The thing is, I don't care. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is are they here or not. How they got here, I don't know and I don't care. But why they are here is where the abduction event comes in because that gets you inside and gests you into the matter of intent.
But the name of their planet? Where they come from ?What the name of their planet is? Who cares?!?! They can't tell us the name of their planet if they come from a planet. There's no way they can tell us because there's hundreds and hundreds of stars - my thought is - out there in the universe. There's got to be hundreds. And each one of those stars has got planets around it. There's a lot of stars that we have that have names. Most of them have numbers. They don't know if their star system has a number from our astronomers and they're not going to know what that number is. And the chances of them coming from one of the thousands we've identified with numbers, but they can't tell us, even if they wanted to in other words. But it doesn't matter. Who cares?! It's meaningless.

Harrison: One more question that came up in our chat as a follow-up to the John Keel question: What about Jacques Vallée - and I'm guessing his theory of looking back through history and mythology and some of his other ideas as well?

David: Yes, I was just with Jacques Vallée - I've known him for many years - at a conference in Scottsdale, Arizona and he was talking about ancient aliens to a large extent and aliens from the 18th century and the 17th century and the answer is, as I said before, the evidence for that is really, really, really slight, really slight. It's basically pictures or people trying to interpret things in the sky at night in the 18th century or the 14th century, or whatever it is. I would be very, very careful with that. We can date the abduction phenomenon with certainty, back to the 1920s and with less of a degree of certainty to the last quarter of the 19th century. After that we cannot date it at all!

And not only that, but remember what I said about if we had a static population? Everybody, within several hundred years would already be an abductee on earth and that has not happened, so it can't be that far back. You've got to be very careful with ancient alien stuff. Jacques is a great guy. He's a terrific guy but I just simply disagree with him about the age of this phenomenon.

Elan: So the full title of your latest book is Walking Among Us: The Alien Plan to Control Humanity. First of all, I just want to thank you for bringing so much humour and self-awareness to this conversation David because while reading your book, I had to put it down a few times. Even though I've read The Threat a number of years ago and other UFO literature, the implications are still distressing, they're upsetting, they're disturbing. I can think of a number of adjectives to describe the thoughts and the feelings that come up when reading this material. You've discussed on the show a little bit this change that the hubrids are preparing and have been trained for, I wonder if you could just give us a summation of where you think all this is going ultimately and what you think this change is and what we might be prepared to see in the future.

David: Basically you're asking me what's going to happen in the future and I don't know whether this is "the change" or whether this is part of the road to the change that will be later on. I wish I hadn't heard all these things, to tell you the truth. I would much rather have this be a benevolent, happy situation where they're here to heal the earth and to heal us and all that kind of stuff that I hear all the time. I would much rather hear that. People tell me stuff that I don't want to hear. I don't like to hear it! Stop telling me that! But they know what they remember and I put it together and I do think that this is an attempt that ultimately will in fact control humanity, if indeed there is humanity left. I can't tell the future. I do not know the future.

I was a professor of history. I know the past to a certain extent, but I cannot project the future and the aliens don't seem to be saying much about the future. However, I don't like it. I don't want to hear this anymore. I don't like it. I want to hear nice, wonderful, benevolent things! That's what I want to hear! I used to tell people "I don't want you to tell me anything bad!" And I would command them "Do not tell me anything bad!" And I would do this little relaxation thing and they couldn't care less what I just told them, they just told me what was happening to them and it was bad! And I didn't want that!

So it's not that I concocted this thing and pulled it out of abductees' minds. I don't like it! I don't want to hear that stuff! But I have to go where the evidence leads me, and it leads me into this controlling humanity in some way eventually because that's what they can do. And if they can do it, they will do it.

Elan: Do you have anything you'd like to say about the way you've processed this information emotionally and psychologically to people who might just be beginning to learn about this?

David: Well I'm older so I worry about my sons more than I do about myself but I don't think we're going to be living in the future the way I expected the future to be. Now nobody can expect the future to be anything because when I was born, to imagine what the future was like now was impossible for anybody on earth, considering that we are talking over the internet, whatever that is. It's just a future that nobody could have imagined and I think that's probably the same for however this works out.

I hope it does not work out with a species that is more apt and adept at controlling people than we have been. So I just plain - I don't know how to say this - but I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but I fear for it.

Elan: Well it's been a fascinating show. David, we really want to thank you for being on with us today and sharing your insights into this subject matter. It's been wonderful talking to you. We want to remind everybody to have a look at David's books. They're really quite clear and well-written. I don't think you can read these books with an open mind without deeply considering what they portend and the idea that this information is valid. Walking Among Us: the Alien Plan to Control Humanity is his latest book. It's a great read. You may want to look at Secret Life and The Threat prior to reading that, just to get a little more background, even though I think you do a great job of giving summations in your latest book. We were just really pleased to have you here and maybe we can have you on again sometime to discuss any further developments or research you've been looking into.

David: Well my main research primarily involves watching television. I'm old. I'm tired.

Elan: Maybe you'll tell us about what you're watching and how cool it is. That might be interesting too.

David: Well I can tell you some things that'll be so bizarre you could never imagine. I'll tell you one thing. I've seen every show of Big Brother since it began.

Harrison: No!

David: That will show you the state of my mind.

Harrison: And the state of humanity.

David: Right.

Shane: We appreciate having you on and going into this pretty interesting and frightening topic and at the same time, there is some humour in there too, so hopefully that can help us get through some of this material. I just wanted to thank you again.

David: Thanks for having me guys. I appreciate it.

Harrison: Alright, thanks David.

Elan: Take care.

David: Bye-bye.

Elan: Thanks everybody for listening in. Please remember to tune into the Health and Wellness Show next week and we'll be returning with another show next Sunday. It'll either be a Behind the Headlines or a Truth Perspective. We want to thank Dr. David M. Jacobs once again for being on and until then, take care. Thank you very much for listening and be well.